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General Heim is not mentioned here he is described as 'the scapegoat of Stalinigrad'. What was his role?
Soviet operations of the Second World War are in English, when used as the title of an article. For example, Operation Uranus and Operation Little Saturn use the English translations of the codenames. In English literature, Winter Storm (sometimes Winter Tempest) also tends to be used over Wintergewitter. In any case, if Soviet operational names are in English, it would make sense if this article name was also in English. JonCatalán (Talk) 06:31, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Two minor style issues:
Asides from that, this seems to me like an excellent, professional article, that certainly meets the GA criteria. Cheers, Nudve ( talk) 20:19, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
Based on the Good Article criteria:
' - Not clear who the 'its' is referring to in terms of 'its southwards offensive', could this be clarified?
' - This seems a little out of place directly following supply concerns - perhaps it should be moved to the start of the section.
' - replace 'chased after' with 'pursued'
An excellent article and very informative; please go over the comments above. When they are solved I will pass the article. Skinny87 ( talk) 11:24, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
I believe that 2nd Guard Rifle Corps you have listed is actually 2nd Guard *Mechanized* Corps. This is what Erickson has listed on page 9 of The Road to Berlin. This also makes much more sense in terms of the listed manpower--17,000 is the size you'd expect a mechanized corps to be. Jparshall ( talk) 17:59, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
I probably didn't make myself clear. The above source states that, despite a considerable forces were positioned on the edge of the outer encirclement, the only Soviet troops that directly opposed Manstein's major blow when the Winter Storm started was the 4th Mech. corps. The 2nd Guard Army, that played a major role in the subsequent Manstein reversal, had been ready for the battle not earlier than on 16th Dec. Therefore, the numbers of Soviet troops in the "Participating Soviet forces" section are misleading.
--
Paul Siebert (
talk)
05:34, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
A very good article on a subject often glossed over in histories of the Stalingrad campaign. My only quibble is that the Tiger tanks mentioned in the text apparently didn't participate in the operation.
The reference cited for the Tigers is Erickson (1983) p. 12. But on p. 15 Erickson places the Tigers with the 6th Panzer Division's 65th Panzer Battalion, a unit that had been disbanded early in 1942 and was no longer part of the division. Unfortunately neither mention of Tigers is referenced.
Another reference used in the article (McCarthy & Syryon 2002) states that Tiger Battalion 503 "was also to be added to the relief force" but arrived too late (p. 145). Wilbeck (2004) writes on p. 58 that Tiger Battalion 503 wasn't sent to Army Group Don until 27 December 1942, arriving in January 1943. Glantz (1995) makes no mention of Tigers in his account of Winter Storm, writing on p. 142 that they first went into action in the South on 7 January 1943.
By way of negative evidence, General Raus makes no mention of Tigers in his account of Winter Storm (Raus 2002).
In light of the above, I think the evidence for Tigers in Winter Storm is shaky at best, and all mention of Tigers should be deleted unless better evidence is available.
One final nitpick: In the reference section, the McCarthy & Syryon title "Panzerkrieg" is misspelled as "Panzerkieg".
References:
Erickson, John (1983). The Road to Berlin: Stalin's War with Germany. New Haven, Connecticut: Yale University Press. ISBN 0-300-07813-7.
Glantz, David M.; Jonathan House (1995). When Titans Clashed: How the Red Army Stopped Hitler. Lawrence, Kansas: Kansas University Press. ISBN 0-7006-0717-X.
McCarthy, Peter; Mike Syryon (2002). Panzerkrieg: The Rise and Fall of Hitler's Tank Divisions. New York City, New York: Carroll & Graf. ISBN 0-7867-1009-8.
Raus, Erhard; Newton, Steven H (tr) (2002). Panzer Operations: The Eastern Front Memoir of General Raus, 1941–1945. Da Capo Press. ISBN 0-306-81247-9.
Wilbeck, Christopher W (2004). Sledgehammers: Strengths and Flaws of Tiger Tank Battalions in World War II. Bedford, Pennsylvania: The Aberjona Press. ISBN 0-9717650-2-2
Hunpecked ( talk) 08:36, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
I have removed the reference to Tigers being directly involved in WS. However they were still used in the defensive fighting around the Rostov-on don sector in jan-feb so they were at the front during the stalingrad campaign. So pics still are relevant. Added link to 503rd heavy tank batt. noted they didnt arrive for the start of OWS. Hope ok Irondome ( talk) 01:10, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
states "A battalion of Tiger I tanks was deployed to Army Group Don to strengthen the German drive to Stalingrad." - this is simply NOT true! and as it has already been cleared , that in Winter Storm no Tiger Is were user, I suggest the picture of the Tiger I removed! Peterachim64 ( talk) — Preceding undated comment added 12:18, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
Lost Victories is hardly a reliable source, being self-serving, dated and POV driven. I propose replacing these citations with Robert Citino. Please let me know if there are any concerns. K.e.coffman ( talk) 20:40, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Operation Winter Storm article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | Operation Winter Storm has been listed as one of the Warfare good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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![]() | This article is rated A-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
General Heim is not mentioned here he is described as 'the scapegoat of Stalinigrad'. What was his role?
Soviet operations of the Second World War are in English, when used as the title of an article. For example, Operation Uranus and Operation Little Saturn use the English translations of the codenames. In English literature, Winter Storm (sometimes Winter Tempest) also tends to be used over Wintergewitter. In any case, if Soviet operational names are in English, it would make sense if this article name was also in English. JonCatalán (Talk) 06:31, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Two minor style issues:
Asides from that, this seems to me like an excellent, professional article, that certainly meets the GA criteria. Cheers, Nudve ( talk) 20:19, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
Based on the Good Article criteria:
' - Not clear who the 'its' is referring to in terms of 'its southwards offensive', could this be clarified?
' - This seems a little out of place directly following supply concerns - perhaps it should be moved to the start of the section.
' - replace 'chased after' with 'pursued'
An excellent article and very informative; please go over the comments above. When they are solved I will pass the article. Skinny87 ( talk) 11:24, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
I believe that 2nd Guard Rifle Corps you have listed is actually 2nd Guard *Mechanized* Corps. This is what Erickson has listed on page 9 of The Road to Berlin. This also makes much more sense in terms of the listed manpower--17,000 is the size you'd expect a mechanized corps to be. Jparshall ( talk) 17:59, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
I probably didn't make myself clear. The above source states that, despite a considerable forces were positioned on the edge of the outer encirclement, the only Soviet troops that directly opposed Manstein's major blow when the Winter Storm started was the 4th Mech. corps. The 2nd Guard Army, that played a major role in the subsequent Manstein reversal, had been ready for the battle not earlier than on 16th Dec. Therefore, the numbers of Soviet troops in the "Participating Soviet forces" section are misleading.
--
Paul Siebert (
talk)
05:34, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
A very good article on a subject often glossed over in histories of the Stalingrad campaign. My only quibble is that the Tiger tanks mentioned in the text apparently didn't participate in the operation.
The reference cited for the Tigers is Erickson (1983) p. 12. But on p. 15 Erickson places the Tigers with the 6th Panzer Division's 65th Panzer Battalion, a unit that had been disbanded early in 1942 and was no longer part of the division. Unfortunately neither mention of Tigers is referenced.
Another reference used in the article (McCarthy & Syryon 2002) states that Tiger Battalion 503 "was also to be added to the relief force" but arrived too late (p. 145). Wilbeck (2004) writes on p. 58 that Tiger Battalion 503 wasn't sent to Army Group Don until 27 December 1942, arriving in January 1943. Glantz (1995) makes no mention of Tigers in his account of Winter Storm, writing on p. 142 that they first went into action in the South on 7 January 1943.
By way of negative evidence, General Raus makes no mention of Tigers in his account of Winter Storm (Raus 2002).
In light of the above, I think the evidence for Tigers in Winter Storm is shaky at best, and all mention of Tigers should be deleted unless better evidence is available.
One final nitpick: In the reference section, the McCarthy & Syryon title "Panzerkrieg" is misspelled as "Panzerkieg".
References:
Erickson, John (1983). The Road to Berlin: Stalin's War with Germany. New Haven, Connecticut: Yale University Press. ISBN 0-300-07813-7.
Glantz, David M.; Jonathan House (1995). When Titans Clashed: How the Red Army Stopped Hitler. Lawrence, Kansas: Kansas University Press. ISBN 0-7006-0717-X.
McCarthy, Peter; Mike Syryon (2002). Panzerkrieg: The Rise and Fall of Hitler's Tank Divisions. New York City, New York: Carroll & Graf. ISBN 0-7867-1009-8.
Raus, Erhard; Newton, Steven H (tr) (2002). Panzer Operations: The Eastern Front Memoir of General Raus, 1941–1945. Da Capo Press. ISBN 0-306-81247-9.
Wilbeck, Christopher W (2004). Sledgehammers: Strengths and Flaws of Tiger Tank Battalions in World War II. Bedford, Pennsylvania: The Aberjona Press. ISBN 0-9717650-2-2
Hunpecked ( talk) 08:36, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
I have removed the reference to Tigers being directly involved in WS. However they were still used in the defensive fighting around the Rostov-on don sector in jan-feb so they were at the front during the stalingrad campaign. So pics still are relevant. Added link to 503rd heavy tank batt. noted they didnt arrive for the start of OWS. Hope ok Irondome ( talk) 01:10, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
states "A battalion of Tiger I tanks was deployed to Army Group Don to strengthen the German drive to Stalingrad." - this is simply NOT true! and as it has already been cleared , that in Winter Storm no Tiger Is were user, I suggest the picture of the Tiger I removed! Peterachim64 ( talk) — Preceding undated comment added 12:18, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
Lost Victories is hardly a reliable source, being self-serving, dated and POV driven. I propose replacing these citations with Robert Citino. Please let me know if there are any concerns. K.e.coffman ( talk) 20:40, 18 March 2017 (UTC)