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Believe it began late on 1 August, check the military where I placed some details Military operations of the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict 82.29.227.171 16:33, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
This story is narrated from Israel viewpoint.-- Sa.vakilian 09:47, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Are you sure abount that? I seems like 200 troops took part in the operation, but there were much fewer comando troops... 89.0.243.231 13:22, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
It cant be 200 troops since they used only 2 CH-53 helos. Maximum 110. And also it officially claimed that Sayeret Matkal and Shaldag participated the raid. http://www1.idf.il/DOVER/site/mainpage.asp?sl=EN&id=7&docid=55483.EN - video. http://www.hnn.co.il/index.php?module=albums;task=view;id=993 - pics from IDF.
How do you know only 2 CH-53 helos were used? Also Sayeret Matkal, basically means Special Forces of the General Staff Unit while Shaldag is an Israeli special forces from the Air Force.
Richardmiami 03:01, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
What does "fast-roped" mean? Especially as they seem to have done it over the Med while re-fuelling (or is that just poor sentence construction?)? Please refrain from military jargon. Best regards Thomas Blomberg 01:38, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Fast-roped refers to the method of disembarking the helicopter when arriving at its destination. Rather than land the large CH-53 helicopters then open the rear door for the crew to exit, they helicopter hovers a a couple of feet off the ground and the crew disembark by sliding down on ropes from the side doors of these large helicopters. That way, the helicopter does not have to stay too long in a "hot zone" and can quickly exit without maximum speed.
Richardmiami 04:42, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
This article is not NPOV, in the casualities box its mentioned that Hezbolla suffered 18 dead, however the only bodies shown on TV were those of civilians & chidren, how would the IDF be sure he killed 18 fighters, i doubt in a commando raid you have time to count the dead bodies, have a cup of tea may be, then withdraw before reinforcements arrive, as for the prisoners, Hezbolla announced that they were civilians & i tend to believe that for more than a reason: at the beggining of the war Israelis captured what they claimed to be 2 hezbolla fighters, hezbolla denounced that, 3 days later the 2 men were released & IDF declared they were civilians. In this raid, one of the captured is a 65 year old grocery owner whose name is Hasan Nasralla, that shows what kind of evidence IDF has against these ( hezbolla Fighters). so please stop refering to israeli figures since its all for propaganda purposes.
Again, towards the end of the war, Israel announced that it was holding some lebanese civilians (snatched) during the conflict & that they are to be released, these might as well be the same individuals kidnapped during this operation, now i tried changing the wording in the casualities box & it seems somebody is changing it back.to those i say the following: If you are so sure that those killed & captured were in fact hezbolla fighters ( some of the killed are less than 5 years old & among the captured are above 60 years old elders) go ahead & present some facts other than biased IDF sources, if not, stop acting like a pigheaded, propaganda directed politician, your government already massacred these poor souls, have some decency & refrain from using their memory for showing off & covering your failure.
The operation objectives were: Assassinate Hezbollah Leader, and locate the arsenal, not capture someone by the name Hassan Nasserallah, who isn't THE Hassan Nasserallah. In my humble opinion, this operation was a complete and utter failure.
Sure it was a failure, though its funny to see that in every battle during this conflict propagandists on wikipedia are using the terms (israeli success) & (israeli victory) while the outcome of the war itself was an ( israeli fuckup)..of course the israeli fuckup was obvious for all observers except for Mr. Bush & equally intelligent species.
Should the date, results and casualties from this raid be added to the infobox ? imi2 07:29, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
I thinks yes, because the Battle of Montecassino where 4 or 5 waves of attacks and all pf them are in the same battlebox. Merge the 2 raids into one battlebox
The source for the result ("Raid failed to accomplish any apparent objective.") is not in English. Do you speak Hebrew? Can you provide a link to a translation , of the complete article? Jeff Song ( talk) 18:36, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
http://www.jpost.com/LandedPages/PrintArticle.aspx?id=30428
"The end result of this undertaking is still unclear to us, because we collected a lot of materials and we still need to analyze them, to decipher them, and to understand from them what we brought with us," http://www.unitedjerusalem.org/index2.asp?id=788256&Date=8/3/2006
Jokkmokks-Goran ( talk) 19:35, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
IDF is not a reliable independent third-party source. We have two independent sources showing that most of the casualties where civilian. First and foremost Human Rights Watch. Both the Interior Security Forces and al-Mustaqbal newspaper are controlled by the Hariri clan and thus no friends of Hezbollah. The claims of the IDF cannot be regarded as anything but claims.
Jokkmokks-Goran ( talk) 23:03, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
This article was created in August 2006. I started making my edits in December 2011 and I’m quite proud of my achievements. Up till then the article was dominated by editors whose main concern seems to have been to present the Baalbek raid as an unqualified Israeli success or victory and doing so by deliberately inflating Hezbollah casualties. Their claims were not supported by sources and a quotation from al-Jazeera was completely faked.
The IDF claimed to have killed 10 Hezbollah fighters, as was reported by IDF itself as well as by Israeli media (see article for sources). Hezbollah did not publish any casualty number but denied this claim. Independent third-party sources however confirm only 2-4 killed combatants (2 of which were Hezbollah) as well as 12-14 civilians. None of these sources was quoted in the earlier version of the article.
That version of the article even claimed that 19 Hezbollah fighters were killed. But the alleged source said nothing of the kind. It discussed another raid on Baalbek several weeks later and did not discuss the number of Hezbollah casualties in either of them (or in the war in general). This nonsense claim – which not even the IDF was making – has been included in this Wikipedia article at least since Aug 7, 2006 with nobody – successfully – challenging it. Really a very low mark for Wikipedia.
The earlier version of the article made no reference what so ever to any civilian Lebanese fatalities in the raid in spite of many sources making this claim, such as BBC:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/5237098.stm
This is a disturbingly common pattern in Wikipedia articles on the 2006 Israel Lebanon war. Most of the articles on the individual battles in the war that I have checked, not only quoted IDF as the ultimate authority on the number and status of Lebanese casualties but on top of that substantially inflated IDF claims without any kind of sources backing this claim.
So where did the number 19 come from? I have of course no idea. But there were early reports that 19 civilians had been killed in the raid. See for example:
http://www.aljazeera.com/archive/2006/08/20084916445795272.html
I decided not to use this item since two subsequent independent inquiries (HRW and ISF) both agreed to a lower number (16) of fatalities. It is quite easy that preliminary numbers become inflated when persons who are simply missing are assumed to be dead.
The IDF incorrectly believed that they were related to Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah and/or where active in Hezbollah. There are clear indications that some of them were the actual targets of one of the two missions. The IDF eventually realized their mistake and released them three weeks later.
While this fact was admitted in the end of the article it was not made clear elsewhere in the article. In the infobox they were still counted as Hezbollah belligerents.
The following quote supposedly from al-Jazeera was found in the earlier version of the article:
A group of Israeli commandos was brought to the hospital by a helicopter. Hezbollah fighters inside the hospital opened fire, but the commandos managed to get inside the hospital. They captured many Hezbollah weapons. Hussein Rahal, a hezbollah spokesman said that the commandos were trapped in the hospital and engaged in fierce clashes with hezbollah fighters. He also added that Israeli jets outside were attacking the surrounding hezbollah forces with rockets. "They entered the hospital and they are trapped inside."
The link to the alleged source is dead but I managed to find it here:
The “quote” cannot be found in this article. More specifically the formulation “Hezbollah fighters inside the hospital opened fire, but the commandos managed to get inside the hospital. They captured many Hezbollah weapons” is nowhere to be found. It is completely made up.
At least one editor user:shrike has questioned whether Human Rights Watch or the Lebanese Internal Security Forces can be described as independent third-party sources. I really cannot understand this position. If they are not considered reliable sources just who would be in the Lebanon war? They both carried out investigations on the ground, interviewing survivors etc. working independently of each other and came to the same conclusions.
I don’t mind including IDF claims of Hezbollah casualties in the article but these claims should not be put on pair with HRW/ISF. The IDF and Hezbollah are not third-party sources.
According to HRW most of the Lebanese fatalities was caused by missiles fired from drones or helicopters at night. The IDF evidently failed to correctly identify the five abductees in spite of being on the ground. The risk of doing so from the air at night is of course much higher.
The earlier version of the article described the result of the raid as an “Israeli tactical victory” but I found very little support for that. The IDF has not presented any evidence suggesting that anything was achieved. The targeted kidnapping victims turned out to be innocent civilians. Most of those killed turned out to be civilians. Hezbollah leader Yazbek survived unhurt. Since the actual aim of the operation is not known for certain it is of course difficult to evaluate whether it succeded. Perhaps the best explanation is that the raid was a PR stunt as Maariv wrote.
I think my formulation “Raid failed to accomplish any apparent objective” covers most possibilities. It does not exclude the possibility that the raid accomplished a less apparent objective. Jokkmokks-Goran ( talk) 20:45, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
from
WP:Vandalism: 'Even if misguided, willfully against consensus, or disruptive, any good-faith effort to improve the encyclopedia is not vandalism. Edit warring over content is not vandalism. Careful consideration may be required to differentiate between edits that are beneficial, detrimental but well-intentioned, and vandalizing. Mislabelling good-faith edits as vandalism can be considered harmful.' I advise you to pay very close attention to the section I have bolded.
Jeff Song (
talk) 23:14, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
The justification was already given in this original edit [1] before any sock edits.So justification of the reverts is not according to policy.-- Shrike ( talk) 13:02, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
As far as I can see I have just added well-sourced RS material, vastly improving the article. But of course I could be mistaken. Others claim that my contributions are "full of errors and policy violations". Could you pleae be a little bit more specific about what the main problems are with the article as it now stands (that is, before the next total revert...)? If you have any constructive and specific suggestions for improvements, I might be able to accomodate you. Jokkmokks-Goran ( talk) 14:02, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
Shrike, please, now you are being plain silly. There are good reasons to put Israel's "terrorist" terminology in brackets since it is not a terminology that Wikipedia adheres to. Besides, it was you yourself who introduced these sentences as well as the brackets. You could have used more neutral terms, such as "Hezbollah members" (without brackets). Please remove the brackets from "civilians".
Your reference to Shelach and Limor is OK but please specify whether it is the the authors' or the IDF's analysis that you are referring to.
Jokkmokks-Goran ( talk) 20:10, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
Having reviewed this more carefully and after reading both Israeli and HRW reports, I’ve come to the following conclusions. HRW confirmed the deaths of at least 2 Hezbollah members. Three other militants belonging to the LCP were also killed. An additional two armed men, referred to by HRW as, “hospital security guards” were wounded. HRW further acknowledges that the IDF recovered AK47s and other weapons from the hospital. According to the IDF, 10 terrorists, armed and wearing flak jackets, were killed. The IDF provided footage of the operation. There were no IDF casualties. The IDF succeeded in landing in the heart of Hezbollah land, inflicted enemy casualties and succeeding in leaving without incurring a single casualty. However, the raid came up short in that it did not succeed it catching the "big fish." So in one sense it is tactical victory by drawing on the brute statistics of war but in another, it came up short. Therefore I propose the following language for the "Results" section, "Israeli tactical victory though no senior militants captured."-- Jiujitsuguy ( talk) 19:24, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
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Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to the Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:
Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.
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Believe it began late on 1 August, check the military where I placed some details Military operations of the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict 82.29.227.171 16:33, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
This story is narrated from Israel viewpoint.-- Sa.vakilian 09:47, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Are you sure abount that? I seems like 200 troops took part in the operation, but there were much fewer comando troops... 89.0.243.231 13:22, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
It cant be 200 troops since they used only 2 CH-53 helos. Maximum 110. And also it officially claimed that Sayeret Matkal and Shaldag participated the raid. http://www1.idf.il/DOVER/site/mainpage.asp?sl=EN&id=7&docid=55483.EN - video. http://www.hnn.co.il/index.php?module=albums;task=view;id=993 - pics from IDF.
How do you know only 2 CH-53 helos were used? Also Sayeret Matkal, basically means Special Forces of the General Staff Unit while Shaldag is an Israeli special forces from the Air Force.
Richardmiami 03:01, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
What does "fast-roped" mean? Especially as they seem to have done it over the Med while re-fuelling (or is that just poor sentence construction?)? Please refrain from military jargon. Best regards Thomas Blomberg 01:38, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Fast-roped refers to the method of disembarking the helicopter when arriving at its destination. Rather than land the large CH-53 helicopters then open the rear door for the crew to exit, they helicopter hovers a a couple of feet off the ground and the crew disembark by sliding down on ropes from the side doors of these large helicopters. That way, the helicopter does not have to stay too long in a "hot zone" and can quickly exit without maximum speed.
Richardmiami 04:42, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
This article is not NPOV, in the casualities box its mentioned that Hezbolla suffered 18 dead, however the only bodies shown on TV were those of civilians & chidren, how would the IDF be sure he killed 18 fighters, i doubt in a commando raid you have time to count the dead bodies, have a cup of tea may be, then withdraw before reinforcements arrive, as for the prisoners, Hezbolla announced that they were civilians & i tend to believe that for more than a reason: at the beggining of the war Israelis captured what they claimed to be 2 hezbolla fighters, hezbolla denounced that, 3 days later the 2 men were released & IDF declared they were civilians. In this raid, one of the captured is a 65 year old grocery owner whose name is Hasan Nasralla, that shows what kind of evidence IDF has against these ( hezbolla Fighters). so please stop refering to israeli figures since its all for propaganda purposes.
Again, towards the end of the war, Israel announced that it was holding some lebanese civilians (snatched) during the conflict & that they are to be released, these might as well be the same individuals kidnapped during this operation, now i tried changing the wording in the casualities box & it seems somebody is changing it back.to those i say the following: If you are so sure that those killed & captured were in fact hezbolla fighters ( some of the killed are less than 5 years old & among the captured are above 60 years old elders) go ahead & present some facts other than biased IDF sources, if not, stop acting like a pigheaded, propaganda directed politician, your government already massacred these poor souls, have some decency & refrain from using their memory for showing off & covering your failure.
The operation objectives were: Assassinate Hezbollah Leader, and locate the arsenal, not capture someone by the name Hassan Nasserallah, who isn't THE Hassan Nasserallah. In my humble opinion, this operation was a complete and utter failure.
Sure it was a failure, though its funny to see that in every battle during this conflict propagandists on wikipedia are using the terms (israeli success) & (israeli victory) while the outcome of the war itself was an ( israeli fuckup)..of course the israeli fuckup was obvious for all observers except for Mr. Bush & equally intelligent species.
Should the date, results and casualties from this raid be added to the infobox ? imi2 07:29, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
I thinks yes, because the Battle of Montecassino where 4 or 5 waves of attacks and all pf them are in the same battlebox. Merge the 2 raids into one battlebox
The source for the result ("Raid failed to accomplish any apparent objective.") is not in English. Do you speak Hebrew? Can you provide a link to a translation , of the complete article? Jeff Song ( talk) 18:36, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
http://www.jpost.com/LandedPages/PrintArticle.aspx?id=30428
"The end result of this undertaking is still unclear to us, because we collected a lot of materials and we still need to analyze them, to decipher them, and to understand from them what we brought with us," http://www.unitedjerusalem.org/index2.asp?id=788256&Date=8/3/2006
Jokkmokks-Goran ( talk) 19:35, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
IDF is not a reliable independent third-party source. We have two independent sources showing that most of the casualties where civilian. First and foremost Human Rights Watch. Both the Interior Security Forces and al-Mustaqbal newspaper are controlled by the Hariri clan and thus no friends of Hezbollah. The claims of the IDF cannot be regarded as anything but claims.
Jokkmokks-Goran ( talk) 23:03, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
This article was created in August 2006. I started making my edits in December 2011 and I’m quite proud of my achievements. Up till then the article was dominated by editors whose main concern seems to have been to present the Baalbek raid as an unqualified Israeli success or victory and doing so by deliberately inflating Hezbollah casualties. Their claims were not supported by sources and a quotation from al-Jazeera was completely faked.
The IDF claimed to have killed 10 Hezbollah fighters, as was reported by IDF itself as well as by Israeli media (see article for sources). Hezbollah did not publish any casualty number but denied this claim. Independent third-party sources however confirm only 2-4 killed combatants (2 of which were Hezbollah) as well as 12-14 civilians. None of these sources was quoted in the earlier version of the article.
That version of the article even claimed that 19 Hezbollah fighters were killed. But the alleged source said nothing of the kind. It discussed another raid on Baalbek several weeks later and did not discuss the number of Hezbollah casualties in either of them (or in the war in general). This nonsense claim – which not even the IDF was making – has been included in this Wikipedia article at least since Aug 7, 2006 with nobody – successfully – challenging it. Really a very low mark for Wikipedia.
The earlier version of the article made no reference what so ever to any civilian Lebanese fatalities in the raid in spite of many sources making this claim, such as BBC:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/5237098.stm
This is a disturbingly common pattern in Wikipedia articles on the 2006 Israel Lebanon war. Most of the articles on the individual battles in the war that I have checked, not only quoted IDF as the ultimate authority on the number and status of Lebanese casualties but on top of that substantially inflated IDF claims without any kind of sources backing this claim.
So where did the number 19 come from? I have of course no idea. But there were early reports that 19 civilians had been killed in the raid. See for example:
http://www.aljazeera.com/archive/2006/08/20084916445795272.html
I decided not to use this item since two subsequent independent inquiries (HRW and ISF) both agreed to a lower number (16) of fatalities. It is quite easy that preliminary numbers become inflated when persons who are simply missing are assumed to be dead.
The IDF incorrectly believed that they were related to Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah and/or where active in Hezbollah. There are clear indications that some of them were the actual targets of one of the two missions. The IDF eventually realized their mistake and released them three weeks later.
While this fact was admitted in the end of the article it was not made clear elsewhere in the article. In the infobox they were still counted as Hezbollah belligerents.
The following quote supposedly from al-Jazeera was found in the earlier version of the article:
A group of Israeli commandos was brought to the hospital by a helicopter. Hezbollah fighters inside the hospital opened fire, but the commandos managed to get inside the hospital. They captured many Hezbollah weapons. Hussein Rahal, a hezbollah spokesman said that the commandos were trapped in the hospital and engaged in fierce clashes with hezbollah fighters. He also added that Israeli jets outside were attacking the surrounding hezbollah forces with rockets. "They entered the hospital and they are trapped inside."
The link to the alleged source is dead but I managed to find it here:
The “quote” cannot be found in this article. More specifically the formulation “Hezbollah fighters inside the hospital opened fire, but the commandos managed to get inside the hospital. They captured many Hezbollah weapons” is nowhere to be found. It is completely made up.
At least one editor user:shrike has questioned whether Human Rights Watch or the Lebanese Internal Security Forces can be described as independent third-party sources. I really cannot understand this position. If they are not considered reliable sources just who would be in the Lebanon war? They both carried out investigations on the ground, interviewing survivors etc. working independently of each other and came to the same conclusions.
I don’t mind including IDF claims of Hezbollah casualties in the article but these claims should not be put on pair with HRW/ISF. The IDF and Hezbollah are not third-party sources.
According to HRW most of the Lebanese fatalities was caused by missiles fired from drones or helicopters at night. The IDF evidently failed to correctly identify the five abductees in spite of being on the ground. The risk of doing so from the air at night is of course much higher.
The earlier version of the article described the result of the raid as an “Israeli tactical victory” but I found very little support for that. The IDF has not presented any evidence suggesting that anything was achieved. The targeted kidnapping victims turned out to be innocent civilians. Most of those killed turned out to be civilians. Hezbollah leader Yazbek survived unhurt. Since the actual aim of the operation is not known for certain it is of course difficult to evaluate whether it succeded. Perhaps the best explanation is that the raid was a PR stunt as Maariv wrote.
I think my formulation “Raid failed to accomplish any apparent objective” covers most possibilities. It does not exclude the possibility that the raid accomplished a less apparent objective. Jokkmokks-Goran ( talk) 20:45, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
from
WP:Vandalism: 'Even if misguided, willfully against consensus, or disruptive, any good-faith effort to improve the encyclopedia is not vandalism. Edit warring over content is not vandalism. Careful consideration may be required to differentiate between edits that are beneficial, detrimental but well-intentioned, and vandalizing. Mislabelling good-faith edits as vandalism can be considered harmful.' I advise you to pay very close attention to the section I have bolded.
Jeff Song (
talk) 23:14, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
The justification was already given in this original edit [1] before any sock edits.So justification of the reverts is not according to policy.-- Shrike ( talk) 13:02, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
As far as I can see I have just added well-sourced RS material, vastly improving the article. But of course I could be mistaken. Others claim that my contributions are "full of errors and policy violations". Could you pleae be a little bit more specific about what the main problems are with the article as it now stands (that is, before the next total revert...)? If you have any constructive and specific suggestions for improvements, I might be able to accomodate you. Jokkmokks-Goran ( talk) 14:02, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
Shrike, please, now you are being plain silly. There are good reasons to put Israel's "terrorist" terminology in brackets since it is not a terminology that Wikipedia adheres to. Besides, it was you yourself who introduced these sentences as well as the brackets. You could have used more neutral terms, such as "Hezbollah members" (without brackets). Please remove the brackets from "civilians".
Your reference to Shelach and Limor is OK but please specify whether it is the the authors' or the IDF's analysis that you are referring to.
Jokkmokks-Goran ( talk) 20:10, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
Having reviewed this more carefully and after reading both Israeli and HRW reports, I’ve come to the following conclusions. HRW confirmed the deaths of at least 2 Hezbollah members. Three other militants belonging to the LCP were also killed. An additional two armed men, referred to by HRW as, “hospital security guards” were wounded. HRW further acknowledges that the IDF recovered AK47s and other weapons from the hospital. According to the IDF, 10 terrorists, armed and wearing flak jackets, were killed. The IDF provided footage of the operation. There were no IDF casualties. The IDF succeeded in landing in the heart of Hezbollah land, inflicted enemy casualties and succeeding in leaving without incurring a single casualty. However, the raid came up short in that it did not succeed it catching the "big fish." So in one sense it is tactical victory by drawing on the brute statistics of war but in another, it came up short. Therefore I propose the following language for the "Results" section, "Israeli tactical victory though no senior militants captured."-- Jiujitsuguy ( talk) 19:24, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to one external link on
Operation Sharp and Smooth. Please take a moment to review
my edit. You may add {{
cbignore}}
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to keep me off the page altogether, but should be used as a last resort. I made the following changes:
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(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 13:52, 31 March 2016 (UTC)