This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Operation Retribution (1941) article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is written in Australian English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, realise, program, labour (but Labor Party)) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
![]() | Operation Retribution (1941) is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so. | |||||||||||||||
![]() | This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on April 6, 2020. | |||||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||||||
Current status: Featured article |
![]() | This article is rated FA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Do you have some proof for this: "It was supposed to break down the Germans but actually had destroyed Belgrade more than the German bombs. On some found bombs, it was written in Serbian Cyrillic Happy Easter"? This state was created in 1990, and was part of Slobodan Miloshevic propaganda against US and Britain. Please give citation or remove this propaganda.
"Civilian casualties were as many as 1,160, while German military losses were 18." 18 what? Buildings? Bases? 99.236.220.155 ( talk) 05:23, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
Well, I think that should be two separate articles 'cause attacker in this two occasions were not fight on the same side. Also, if you look into French, German and Serbian articles, you'll see that they describe only one bombing (not both in the same article). -- Bojan 05:29, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
Even though the claim that Yugoslav fighters shot down 12 German Messerchmits is referenced it is still false. The truth is that they shot down 12 German aircraft of all types - the majority of them being Junkers Ju-87 Stukas. Also, Milisav Semiz never shot down four aircraft. According to some optimistic Serbian sources I read, he claimed only three enemy aircraft. However, I remember hearing an interview with a member of a small club dedicated to Yugoslav Royal Air Force (historical research and memory preservation) some years ago who claimed that no Yugoslav pilot shot down more than two aircraft during the campaign.
Veljko Stevanovich 13. 07. 2007. 00:45 UTC+1
No wonder Wikipedia isn't trusted as a source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.97.23.238 ( talk) 17:53, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
I consider this article should be split into two, this one for the German bombing (Operation Retribution) in April 1941 that presaged the invasion, and a new one for the Allied bombing of Yugoslavia (which mainly occurred in 1944). The USAAF and RAF bombed Belgrade, Mostar, Niš, Pančevo, Zara, Skopje, Metovic, Knin, Imotski, Bihac, Brod, Drnis, Leskovic, Zagreb, Varazdin etc etc etc. Conflating two bombings of Belgrade three years apart is counterintuitive when there is much more to the Allied missions that bombed Belgrade (for example the USAAF also bombed Niš and Pančevo on the same day in April 1944). They really are separate subjects. Peacemaker67 ( send... over) 04:46, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
I have reversed the move to Bombing of Belgrade in World War II, as that is NOT the scope of the article. This article relates only to Operation Retribution, the bombing of Belgrade at the outset of the Axis invasion in April 1941, not the later bombing of Belgrade by the Allies that occurred between 1941 and 1945, covered by Allied bombing of Yugoslavia in World War II. When moving articles, please take into account the scope of the article, other articles that might cover the topic, and the class of the article, and use an RM if unsure. Thanks, Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 10:10, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
Dear @ Peacemaker67:, I have doubts on the Easter.
First of all, 6 april gregorian was saturday, so cannot be the Easter Sunday. This is sure.
Gilbert (Grande Storia della Seconda Guerra Mondiale, I have it in italian ...) states that Beograd was full of people collected there to celebrate the Palm Sunday (evidently the next day). The correctness of Gilbert is highly probable.
My computer program computes that the Orthodox Easter was on 7 april julian i.e. 20 april gregorian. Quite probably I have a bug ...
Suppongoche ( talk) 19:25, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
The dates of my program have been confirmed by a pair of INTERNET calculators. I may only guess that the serb church used a rule different from that implemented in the Gauss algorithm (e.g. a more accurate formula for the lunar motion) Suppongoche ( talk) 20:29, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
The conversion of short/long tons of bombs dropped has been changed in this article to SI units (tonnes), so I reverted, but was myself reverted with the edit summary "It's standard practice to use SI units on wikipedia articles, especially those that relate to countries other than the US, per MOS:UNITS. Also it's less confusing for readers." In fact, there are thousands of articles on WP which use short and long tons, because the sources that were used to create them describe them in that way, and it is standard in the literature. It is entirely "standard practice" on articles about ships. For example, HMS Dreadnought (1906) (a GA), SMS Erzherzog Franz Ferdinand (an FA), and many, many more. Every naval ship FA I have worked up (about 25 articles) uses them, and the same would apply to several highly prolific naval ship editors who have developed far more FAs than me. Among articles about bombing, Bombing of Tokyo (10 March 1945) also uses short tons. For an editor with 300 edits to suggest that they know "standard practice" on WP better than an editor with over 90,000 is also a bit rich. There is no reason whatsoever to insist on this reading of MOS:UNITS. Thanks, Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 04:31, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Operation Retribution (1941) article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is written in Australian English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, realise, program, labour (but Labor Party)) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
![]() | Operation Retribution (1941) is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so. | |||||||||||||||
![]() | This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on April 6, 2020. | |||||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||||||
Current status: Featured article |
![]() | This article is rated FA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Do you have some proof for this: "It was supposed to break down the Germans but actually had destroyed Belgrade more than the German bombs. On some found bombs, it was written in Serbian Cyrillic Happy Easter"? This state was created in 1990, and was part of Slobodan Miloshevic propaganda against US and Britain. Please give citation or remove this propaganda.
"Civilian casualties were as many as 1,160, while German military losses were 18." 18 what? Buildings? Bases? 99.236.220.155 ( talk) 05:23, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
Well, I think that should be two separate articles 'cause attacker in this two occasions were not fight on the same side. Also, if you look into French, German and Serbian articles, you'll see that they describe only one bombing (not both in the same article). -- Bojan 05:29, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
Even though the claim that Yugoslav fighters shot down 12 German Messerchmits is referenced it is still false. The truth is that they shot down 12 German aircraft of all types - the majority of them being Junkers Ju-87 Stukas. Also, Milisav Semiz never shot down four aircraft. According to some optimistic Serbian sources I read, he claimed only three enemy aircraft. However, I remember hearing an interview with a member of a small club dedicated to Yugoslav Royal Air Force (historical research and memory preservation) some years ago who claimed that no Yugoslav pilot shot down more than two aircraft during the campaign.
Veljko Stevanovich 13. 07. 2007. 00:45 UTC+1
No wonder Wikipedia isn't trusted as a source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.97.23.238 ( talk) 17:53, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
I consider this article should be split into two, this one for the German bombing (Operation Retribution) in April 1941 that presaged the invasion, and a new one for the Allied bombing of Yugoslavia (which mainly occurred in 1944). The USAAF and RAF bombed Belgrade, Mostar, Niš, Pančevo, Zara, Skopje, Metovic, Knin, Imotski, Bihac, Brod, Drnis, Leskovic, Zagreb, Varazdin etc etc etc. Conflating two bombings of Belgrade three years apart is counterintuitive when there is much more to the Allied missions that bombed Belgrade (for example the USAAF also bombed Niš and Pančevo on the same day in April 1944). They really are separate subjects. Peacemaker67 ( send... over) 04:46, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
I have reversed the move to Bombing of Belgrade in World War II, as that is NOT the scope of the article. This article relates only to Operation Retribution, the bombing of Belgrade at the outset of the Axis invasion in April 1941, not the later bombing of Belgrade by the Allies that occurred between 1941 and 1945, covered by Allied bombing of Yugoslavia in World War II. When moving articles, please take into account the scope of the article, other articles that might cover the topic, and the class of the article, and use an RM if unsure. Thanks, Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 10:10, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
Dear @ Peacemaker67:, I have doubts on the Easter.
First of all, 6 april gregorian was saturday, so cannot be the Easter Sunday. This is sure.
Gilbert (Grande Storia della Seconda Guerra Mondiale, I have it in italian ...) states that Beograd was full of people collected there to celebrate the Palm Sunday (evidently the next day). The correctness of Gilbert is highly probable.
My computer program computes that the Orthodox Easter was on 7 april julian i.e. 20 april gregorian. Quite probably I have a bug ...
Suppongoche ( talk) 19:25, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
The dates of my program have been confirmed by a pair of INTERNET calculators. I may only guess that the serb church used a rule different from that implemented in the Gauss algorithm (e.g. a more accurate formula for the lunar motion) Suppongoche ( talk) 20:29, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
The conversion of short/long tons of bombs dropped has been changed in this article to SI units (tonnes), so I reverted, but was myself reverted with the edit summary "It's standard practice to use SI units on wikipedia articles, especially those that relate to countries other than the US, per MOS:UNITS. Also it's less confusing for readers." In fact, there are thousands of articles on WP which use short and long tons, because the sources that were used to create them describe them in that way, and it is standard in the literature. It is entirely "standard practice" on articles about ships. For example, HMS Dreadnought (1906) (a GA), SMS Erzherzog Franz Ferdinand (an FA), and many, many more. Every naval ship FA I have worked up (about 25 articles) uses them, and the same would apply to several highly prolific naval ship editors who have developed far more FAs than me. Among articles about bombing, Bombing of Tokyo (10 March 1945) also uses short tons. For an editor with 300 edits to suggest that they know "standard practice" on WP better than an editor with over 90,000 is also a bit rich. There is no reason whatsoever to insist on this reading of MOS:UNITS. Thanks, Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 04:31, 23 December 2022 (UTC)