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There were several repeated attempts to add in the casualties as they were claimed by Sovinformburo on 17/01/1943. I cannot believe the editor thinks they are OK for the infobox. WP:MILMOS#SOURCES clearly states that sources should be "secondary works by reputable historians".
It is common sense, that any wartime broadcast, whether it is German, Soviet, Allied or any other, cannot be accurate due to very incomplete information available at the time of the publication. In addition any wartime public broadcast will very likely to exaggerate enemy losses. 81.158.11.56 ( talk) 17:58, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
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Reviewer: WikiCopter ( ♠ • ♣ • ♥ • ♦ • simple • commons • lost • cvu • onau) 04:03, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
I will review this later; don't be suprised if I'm unusually (or usually) exacting, because I will assume that you are planning to go to FAC later. I think I will have fun reviewing this article. WikiCopter ( ♠ • ♣ • ♥ • ♦ • simple • commons • lost • cvu • onau) 04:03, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
Passed, good work. WikiCopter ( ♠ • ♣ • ♥ • ♦ • simple • commons • lost • cvu • onau) 23:42, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
Don't use them. These are a primary source, that does not directly link to casualties in operations. They had a time lag, were inaccurate, and did not record all casualties. To avoid going into OR, use reliable secondary source. D2306 ( talk) 21:12, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
The numbers of Soviet losses in Krivosheev' book - is a simple summation of 10-day Soviet reports (writes about himself, page 6 of the 2001 edition - in Russian), for 1941-1942, the Soviet 10-day reports are absolutely untrue. Therefore Krivosheev's Soviet losses in the period 1941-1942 are extremely low. No need to specify individual cases of delays 10-day German reports as widespread. The group of armies "North" was not a delay in the 10-day reports in 1943. These data are fully reliable.
Glantz is not an authoritative source for the German losses. If you stand numbers Glantz, you must provide a scan of the page with the numbers of German losses in the operation iskra. I only have his book about the operation mars, I do not want to read his other books. Since Glantz does not like to deal in detail in the figures. His data on the ratio of army forces and losses of opponents constantly with large gaps and can not make up the whole picture.
I'm wondering if you have a book to which you give a link to wikipedia and which the German losses are there? Maybe the entire Army Group North during the entire January 1943? In his work about the operation Mars many rough unacceptable errors for the serious historian in matters pertaining to the Soviet and German losses. Much more authority in this matter N. Zetterling. Niklas Zetterling (I hope you know who that is?) analyzed a 10-day German reports on the eastern front. They are absolutely valid for 1941 - 1944 with a few exceptions. and his work is in the public domain, you can read it free, unlike many books Glantz.
Universally recognized German losses in the operation Bagration - 399 000, is the sum of loss of 10-day reports, just be delayed until October 1944.
In any case, if you insist on numbers Glantz, you must first provide a scan of his book with these figures. Remember, too, secondary sources are quite different. It all depends on the author. And trust them without verification is impossible! I believe that in this case the German 10-day reports are much more authentic.
R. Overmars? do not talk about his work. This is not an official publication of the German Federal Ministry of Defence. it's just a private citizen, I know like Russian historian Boris Sokolov (often quoted by Glanz, Zetterling, Frieser, and many others. Sokolov so famous in the west historians although he annoys a lot of people in Russia). Sokolov like Overmars, he has only one goal: the extremely exaggerated loss of population. So Overmars figures should be compared with the figures of Boris Sokolov.
You must use the official data of Germany: 4.2 million dead German soldiers, of whom 2.6 million on the eastern front during the war (including 1.1 million killed or died in Soviet captivity). A comparison of numbers of private individual Overmars with official Krivosheev - absolutely not true. So the official numbers of dead soldiers are: 2.6 million Germans and 8.7 million Soviet. This is a valid comparison with comparable sources.
If you do not agree, we need a third opinion (this should be a neutral party, not your friend from Russia with an English nickname, or a fan of mother Russia). Let us will judge our Western colleagues. I think you have a pro-Soviet position, and you are not impartial. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yura2404 ( talk • contribs) 23:34, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
Operation Iskra has been listed as one of the Warfare good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | ||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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|
|
There were several repeated attempts to add in the casualties as they were claimed by Sovinformburo on 17/01/1943. I cannot believe the editor thinks they are OK for the infobox. WP:MILMOS#SOURCES clearly states that sources should be "secondary works by reputable historians".
It is common sense, that any wartime broadcast, whether it is German, Soviet, Allied or any other, cannot be accurate due to very incomplete information available at the time of the publication. In addition any wartime public broadcast will very likely to exaggerate enemy losses. 81.158.11.56 ( talk) 17:58, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
---|
Reviewing |
Reviewer: WikiCopter ( ♠ • ♣ • ♥ • ♦ • simple • commons • lost • cvu • onau) 04:03, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
I will review this later; don't be suprised if I'm unusually (or usually) exacting, because I will assume that you are planning to go to FAC later. I think I will have fun reviewing this article. WikiCopter ( ♠ • ♣ • ♥ • ♦ • simple • commons • lost • cvu • onau) 04:03, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
Passed, good work. WikiCopter ( ♠ • ♣ • ♥ • ♦ • simple • commons • lost • cvu • onau) 23:42, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
Don't use them. These are a primary source, that does not directly link to casualties in operations. They had a time lag, were inaccurate, and did not record all casualties. To avoid going into OR, use reliable secondary source. D2306 ( talk) 21:12, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
The numbers of Soviet losses in Krivosheev' book - is a simple summation of 10-day Soviet reports (writes about himself, page 6 of the 2001 edition - in Russian), for 1941-1942, the Soviet 10-day reports are absolutely untrue. Therefore Krivosheev's Soviet losses in the period 1941-1942 are extremely low. No need to specify individual cases of delays 10-day German reports as widespread. The group of armies "North" was not a delay in the 10-day reports in 1943. These data are fully reliable.
Glantz is not an authoritative source for the German losses. If you stand numbers Glantz, you must provide a scan of the page with the numbers of German losses in the operation iskra. I only have his book about the operation mars, I do not want to read his other books. Since Glantz does not like to deal in detail in the figures. His data on the ratio of army forces and losses of opponents constantly with large gaps and can not make up the whole picture.
I'm wondering if you have a book to which you give a link to wikipedia and which the German losses are there? Maybe the entire Army Group North during the entire January 1943? In his work about the operation Mars many rough unacceptable errors for the serious historian in matters pertaining to the Soviet and German losses. Much more authority in this matter N. Zetterling. Niklas Zetterling (I hope you know who that is?) analyzed a 10-day German reports on the eastern front. They are absolutely valid for 1941 - 1944 with a few exceptions. and his work is in the public domain, you can read it free, unlike many books Glantz.
Universally recognized German losses in the operation Bagration - 399 000, is the sum of loss of 10-day reports, just be delayed until October 1944.
In any case, if you insist on numbers Glantz, you must first provide a scan of his book with these figures. Remember, too, secondary sources are quite different. It all depends on the author. And trust them without verification is impossible! I believe that in this case the German 10-day reports are much more authentic.
R. Overmars? do not talk about his work. This is not an official publication of the German Federal Ministry of Defence. it's just a private citizen, I know like Russian historian Boris Sokolov (often quoted by Glanz, Zetterling, Frieser, and many others. Sokolov so famous in the west historians although he annoys a lot of people in Russia). Sokolov like Overmars, he has only one goal: the extremely exaggerated loss of population. So Overmars figures should be compared with the figures of Boris Sokolov.
You must use the official data of Germany: 4.2 million dead German soldiers, of whom 2.6 million on the eastern front during the war (including 1.1 million killed or died in Soviet captivity). A comparison of numbers of private individual Overmars with official Krivosheev - absolutely not true. So the official numbers of dead soldiers are: 2.6 million Germans and 8.7 million Soviet. This is a valid comparison with comparable sources.
If you do not agree, we need a third opinion (this should be a neutral party, not your friend from Russia with an English nickname, or a fan of mother Russia). Let us will judge our Western colleagues. I think you have a pro-Soviet position, and you are not impartial. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yura2404 ( talk • contribs) 23:34, 28 October 2013 (UTC)