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Wikification done.
Eagle ( talk) ( desk) 02:20, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
I found some sources about ethnicity of Onufri:
--
Antidiskriminator (
talk)
10:24, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
Can we have in the references an english translation of the quotation in slavonic?-- Euzen ( talk) 11:22, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
I
removed the bare-link citations which did in fact have no mention of him as being "ethnic Albanian".--
Zoupan
13:22, 13 March 2015 (UTC) Blocked sock:
Ajdebre.
Antid:First of all epithet is a term scholars use for such cases and if you delete any more content using Sissiou as source (whose paper you can't read as you don't know Greek) given the number of reverts you've made in the past 24 hours, I'll ask for admin intervention. That being said don't add on the lead your own transliterations(Argitis) of an epithet that appears only once in a fresco as it isn't used by any works and also don't attribute your own edits to other users. -- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 14:51, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
Here [1], we have a painting school in Berat
The master of the school of Berat/le Maitre de l'«école» de Berat [2]. And: the "correct reading" - that is, as understood by Golompias - of the two controversial words at the end of the inscription... [3]
Here we have only "allegedly" material. Even if he was from Argos - I doubt that - that doesn't mean he was automatically Greek.
Majuru ( talk) 19:13, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
It seems that half of the scholarly job around Onouprhios is not about his paintings but about an inscription of 1547 bearing his name and his possible origin.
See yourself how complicated thinks can be in Greek. The whole inscription is here, page 333. Onouphrios is mentioned in the last line (line No. 7):
George Golobias (1983) The ctetorial (founding) inscription in the Church of Agioi Apostoloi of Kastoria and the painter Onouprhios. published in the periodical "Makedonika"
Don't try to read it even if you know Greek because some words are abbreviated in hieratic style of byzantine palaiography AND some crucial letters are worn out.
The first who dealed with this inscription was Rev. Germanos Christides in 1922, followed by several Greek scholars, experts in palaiography (Orlandos, Tsamises, Moutsopoulos, Gounaris etc). It seems that none of them is happy with the reading of the previous and the story goes on.
Line 7 is reconstructed by Golobias in p. 334, as:
"The painter Onouphrios Argetes from the briliant city of Venice ..."
The author dedicates pages 338 to 343 (!) to the words "Argetes" and "Venice" (Αργήτη and Βενετίον in Greek). In p. 339 he offers a detail of this line. The complex on the left is understood as abbreviated "ΑΡΓΗΤΗ" and on the right the complex "ΒΕΝΕΤΙΟΝ". Previous scholars read other words instead of ARGETE, mostly "του άρτι" (who just). Golobias seem to have done the most thorough examination of this word and concludes to the reading of AΡΓΗΓΗ (from Argos), p. 338 down and 339 down). He asserts that the name "Onouphrios Argites" is also found in the books of the fraternity of San Giorgio dei Greci in Venice (others argue that it is not sure if this is the same Onouphrios). Golobias explains that Argites can mean either his birthplace or it was a surname meaning that his ancestors were from Argos. The subsequent reference of Venice means that he had stayed/studied painting in Venice but could also mean that he was born there (p. 340, 1st paragraph). Rev. Christides reads "Grevena" instead of "Venetion" and Albanian researces read "Veration". Here we find the names of Popa, Puzanova and Dhamo (p. 341 up). In footnote 3, p. 341, Golobias remarks that "the Albanian scientists stretch the Albanian nationality of Onouphrios" and gives all their publications with no more comments. We must understand that modern Greek byzantinologists who study similar cases want to have good relations with their co-workers and authorities of the neighbour countries and do not want to get involved in nationalistic dog-fights. However, we the independent reader can see that all the Albanian bibliography and one Italian occurs in the totalitarian national-communist regime of Hoxha and nobody expects to find there a non-Albanian Onouphrios. But the official catalogue of the Albanian byzantine paintings exhibition in Thessalonike, which was co-organized by Greek and Albanian authorities (a reference that I found painstakingly and certain users erased), contain a good review of the relevant bibliography and Onouphrios is not characterized "Albanian". The (Greek) author of that essay adopts a middle way, reading the important line as "Onouphrios who just (came) from Venice" and says that we don't know On. origins. Thus, I propose that in this article we include the general atmosphere of this debate in one line and we add that "some experts believe that Onouphrios has signed as "Argites" in a wall painting in Kastoria and possibly in archival material of the Scuola dei Greci in Venice". Btw, respecting the persons whom we are writting about, we should accept the name THEY called themselves. On. everywhere signs as "Onouphrios" (ΟΝΟΥΦΡΙΟΣ), all scientists call him so and I don't see who is calling him "Onufri". The latter is the vulgar name used both in Greece and Albania. I may call my friend "Onufri" (Ονούφρη) but if he becomes famous he will be immortalized as Onouphrios. Unless he is a rap singer.
Unfortunately, the Βε[νε]ετιὸν or Βε[ρα]τιὸν makes the identification impossible. I think we should better use Elsie's [5] dictionary. Majuru ( talk) 12:17, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
The article by intoalbania.com doesn't discuss Onufri's ethnic background, and it is WP:QUESTIONABLE; it is a promotional website of Albanian tourism and a non-scholarly source. Lleshi (2013) is also problematic and looks like a self-published book. The thearthistoryjournal.blogspot.com is a WP:USERGENERATED source. Furthermore, i don't know what to make of Zeqo (1998); "Medaur" is a rather obscure publisher. Last, there are sources that state he was ethnically Greek, and thus this also violates WP:NPOV; see MOS:LEAD. Demetrios1993 ( talk) 23:07, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Onufri article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Wikification done.
Eagle ( talk) ( desk) 02:20, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
I found some sources about ethnicity of Onufri:
--
Antidiskriminator (
talk)
10:24, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
Can we have in the references an english translation of the quotation in slavonic?-- Euzen ( talk) 11:22, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
I
removed the bare-link citations which did in fact have no mention of him as being "ethnic Albanian".--
Zoupan
13:22, 13 March 2015 (UTC) Blocked sock:
Ajdebre.
Antid:First of all epithet is a term scholars use for such cases and if you delete any more content using Sissiou as source (whose paper you can't read as you don't know Greek) given the number of reverts you've made in the past 24 hours, I'll ask for admin intervention. That being said don't add on the lead your own transliterations(Argitis) of an epithet that appears only once in a fresco as it isn't used by any works and also don't attribute your own edits to other users. -- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 14:51, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
Here [1], we have a painting school in Berat
The master of the school of Berat/le Maitre de l'«école» de Berat [2]. And: the "correct reading" - that is, as understood by Golompias - of the two controversial words at the end of the inscription... [3]
Here we have only "allegedly" material. Even if he was from Argos - I doubt that - that doesn't mean he was automatically Greek.
Majuru ( talk) 19:13, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
It seems that half of the scholarly job around Onouprhios is not about his paintings but about an inscription of 1547 bearing his name and his possible origin.
See yourself how complicated thinks can be in Greek. The whole inscription is here, page 333. Onouphrios is mentioned in the last line (line No. 7):
George Golobias (1983) The ctetorial (founding) inscription in the Church of Agioi Apostoloi of Kastoria and the painter Onouprhios. published in the periodical "Makedonika"
Don't try to read it even if you know Greek because some words are abbreviated in hieratic style of byzantine palaiography AND some crucial letters are worn out.
The first who dealed with this inscription was Rev. Germanos Christides in 1922, followed by several Greek scholars, experts in palaiography (Orlandos, Tsamises, Moutsopoulos, Gounaris etc). It seems that none of them is happy with the reading of the previous and the story goes on.
Line 7 is reconstructed by Golobias in p. 334, as:
"The painter Onouphrios Argetes from the briliant city of Venice ..."
The author dedicates pages 338 to 343 (!) to the words "Argetes" and "Venice" (Αργήτη and Βενετίον in Greek). In p. 339 he offers a detail of this line. The complex on the left is understood as abbreviated "ΑΡΓΗΤΗ" and on the right the complex "ΒΕΝΕΤΙΟΝ". Previous scholars read other words instead of ARGETE, mostly "του άρτι" (who just). Golobias seem to have done the most thorough examination of this word and concludes to the reading of AΡΓΗΓΗ (from Argos), p. 338 down and 339 down). He asserts that the name "Onouphrios Argites" is also found in the books of the fraternity of San Giorgio dei Greci in Venice (others argue that it is not sure if this is the same Onouphrios). Golobias explains that Argites can mean either his birthplace or it was a surname meaning that his ancestors were from Argos. The subsequent reference of Venice means that he had stayed/studied painting in Venice but could also mean that he was born there (p. 340, 1st paragraph). Rev. Christides reads "Grevena" instead of "Venetion" and Albanian researces read "Veration". Here we find the names of Popa, Puzanova and Dhamo (p. 341 up). In footnote 3, p. 341, Golobias remarks that "the Albanian scientists stretch the Albanian nationality of Onouphrios" and gives all their publications with no more comments. We must understand that modern Greek byzantinologists who study similar cases want to have good relations with their co-workers and authorities of the neighbour countries and do not want to get involved in nationalistic dog-fights. However, we the independent reader can see that all the Albanian bibliography and one Italian occurs in the totalitarian national-communist regime of Hoxha and nobody expects to find there a non-Albanian Onouphrios. But the official catalogue of the Albanian byzantine paintings exhibition in Thessalonike, which was co-organized by Greek and Albanian authorities (a reference that I found painstakingly and certain users erased), contain a good review of the relevant bibliography and Onouphrios is not characterized "Albanian". The (Greek) author of that essay adopts a middle way, reading the important line as "Onouphrios who just (came) from Venice" and says that we don't know On. origins. Thus, I propose that in this article we include the general atmosphere of this debate in one line and we add that "some experts believe that Onouphrios has signed as "Argites" in a wall painting in Kastoria and possibly in archival material of the Scuola dei Greci in Venice". Btw, respecting the persons whom we are writting about, we should accept the name THEY called themselves. On. everywhere signs as "Onouphrios" (ΟΝΟΥΦΡΙΟΣ), all scientists call him so and I don't see who is calling him "Onufri". The latter is the vulgar name used both in Greece and Albania. I may call my friend "Onufri" (Ονούφρη) but if he becomes famous he will be immortalized as Onouphrios. Unless he is a rap singer.
Unfortunately, the Βε[νε]ετιὸν or Βε[ρα]τιὸν makes the identification impossible. I think we should better use Elsie's [5] dictionary. Majuru ( talk) 12:17, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
The article by intoalbania.com doesn't discuss Onufri's ethnic background, and it is WP:QUESTIONABLE; it is a promotional website of Albanian tourism and a non-scholarly source. Lleshi (2013) is also problematic and looks like a self-published book. The thearthistoryjournal.blogspot.com is a WP:USERGENERATED source. Furthermore, i don't know what to make of Zeqo (1998); "Medaur" is a rather obscure publisher. Last, there are sources that state he was ethnically Greek, and thus this also violates WP:NPOV; see MOS:LEAD. Demetrios1993 ( talk) 23:07, 1 December 2021 (UTC)