Does anyone know if Stravinsky was an influence for this? It definitely sounds like he could have been.
Other sources insist that the "Gloriosa, generosa" section is in fact Japanese instead of Latin, and says "Haryuu no hanekata". This apparently translates to "[The/one] winged one of the lower reaches". Personally, I've found it to be easily interpretable either way, though it would be interesting to get a native Japanese speaker's opinion on this. -- Kizor 06:58, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
- I managed to find one user in the
WikiProject Final Fantasy who is a native speaker of Japanese, that is
User:Peaceman, but he is currently on vacation for two weeks starting July 30. –
DarkEvil 13:15, August 2, 2005 (UTC)
- That's a smart approach, thanks! I'll go bug him when he gets back. --
Kizor
14:20, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
- This is a strange rumor along the lines of "Bokista" for Earthbound. First of all--the entire song's in latin. Why would one part be in Japanese? Remember, Liberali Fatali, too, or whatever it's called? Secondly, the alleged phrase doesn't make sense, although one sense of it is pesron. はりゅう (haryuu) isn't anything. The only closest word is はいゆう (haiyuu), which is actor/actress. はねかた (hanekata) also isn't a word. はね itself can mean wing, and かた itself can mean a plethora of things, none of them really making sense. I've been taking japanese for a while now, and I fear I actually may be missing something but はりゅうのはねかた just seems like nonsense. I'm just worried that there might be some credit to it since one of the words kind of sort of seems possible. I'll listen to the mp3 to see if it's another "Bokista." Lockeownzj00 15:54, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
- although this makes me tend to believe it is gloriosa, generosa.
- That's a smart approach, thanks! I'll go bug him when he gets back. --
Kizor
14:20, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
- Actually, I was lead to believe that it's "Haryuu no hanekata" in the version in game, and "Gloriosa, Generosa" in the orchestral version (in Reunion Tracks). I have the MP3 of the orchestral version, it definitely says Gloriosa / Generosa there. I have also recording of the battle in game; I can't make sense of what the choir says in it (PS version has such an abysmal sound quality =) --
Wwwwolf
11:06, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
- I spent some time listening to the official FFVII soundtrack (the four-CD version, not the Reunion Tracks compliation), and it sounds a lot like Gloriosa/Generosa there too. I'll give it another look ingame when I get a chance if you want, though. --
Technogeek
22:24, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
- I agree, it still sounds like "Gloriosa/Generosa" in the original game soundtrack. The only odd thing I notice there is that the first "e" in "Generosa" sounds much closer to an "a" sound (like "ha-na-ro-sa"), though this could have just been a pronunciation mistake. -- Z-Ramm 21:01, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
- I spent some time listening to the official FFVII soundtrack (the four-CD version, not the Reunion Tracks compliation), and it sounds a lot like Gloriosa/Generosa there too. I'll give it another look ingame when I get a chance if you want, though. --
Technogeek
22:24, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
- Hey folks! According to one transcription I found it was supposed to be "Karyuu no hane kata". I don't know damn about Japanese grammar or word use, but the site I nicked it from (with comments from people who supposedly know the language as well) and WWWJDIC seems to think this seems to be closer to the "winged one of lower reaches" translation popularly seen.
- I'd have one further question though, a far more difficult one: Should the Latin version have "Sephiros" or "Sephiroth"? What's the Latin version of the word, anyway? The choir in Reunion Tracks version does pronounce the name "Sephiros" though, but I don't know what it's meant to be.
- (BTW, I cleaned up the discussion here to use indents instead of bullets. I've always preferred "indent your skull" approach.) --
Wwwwolf
13:01, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
- Okay, I may be a bit hasty, but I did this: Changed "Sephiros" to "Sephiroth" in the Latin version. Latin spelling and pronunciation seems to say that there is "th" sound in Latin and it's pronounced more closer to "t" than "s". I think Latin uses "Sephiroth" too (okay, everyone's perfectly allowed to hit me with a very huge mallet for this - I've only seen the word in Latin in Neon Genesis Evangelion, which had that famous diagram titled "Systema Sephirothicum".) I'm perfectly aware that the choir in all known recordings sings "sephiros", but I just guess this is one of the pecularities of Japanese (otherwise we'd all be picking up Aerith from planet Zebeth, ho ho ho!) -- Wwwwolf 15:59, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
- Actually, the word Sephiroth cmes from Hebrew, not Latin. Is the name given in the Quabbalah to every one of the ten attributes that God createdin the physical and metaphyisical universe so he can use them as a projection of himself to the universe and mankind. (from the spanish Enciclopedia Católica
http://www.enciclopediacatolica.com/c/cabala.htm). That makes some sense because we tend to think of Safer Sephiroth as a demigod (that is, part of god), a VERY powerful guy... As it comes from Hebrew, it could be Sephiros or Sephiroth due to the inaccurate romanization of the name (because this romanizations are never 100% accurate) But the common use is Sephiroth (as many hebrew owords have this "th" suffix --
Andycyca|
say...
23:39, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
- I think it's just pronounced セフィロス in the song. 75.64.187.115 04:15, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
- Actually, the word Sephiroth cmes from Hebrew, not Latin. Is the name given in the Quabbalah to every one of the ten attributes that God createdin the physical and metaphyisical universe so he can use them as a projection of himself to the universe and mankind. (from the spanish Enciclopedia Católica
http://www.enciclopediacatolica.com/c/cabala.htm). That makes some sense because we tend to think of Safer Sephiroth as a demigod (that is, part of god), a VERY powerful guy... As it comes from Hebrew, it could be Sephiros or Sephiroth due to the inaccurate romanization of the name (because this romanizations are never 100% accurate) But the common use is Sephiroth (as many hebrew owords have this "th" suffix --
Andycyca|
say...
23:39, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
Here are the lyrics for Advent: One-Winged Angel. I can't figure out how to get them into the same format as the lyrics already on the page, but maybe someone else knows how.
- Added to the article. Now all it needs is a good check that the lyrics are actually spelled right and that the translation is good. I know this seems identical to the thing that's floating in the net, I wonder what the source is - CD notes? Hmm... -- Wwwwolf 11:47, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
- After listening to Advent: OWA many times, I disagree with the listing of the line "Ferum terribile, ferum fatum." I strongly believe that it's pronounced "Ferum terribile, terribile fatum" in the song, and so I changed it. I'm not 100% sure about it, but I took an educated guess at the translation of this (I took about a year's worth of Latin classes but I'm not an expert). On another note, I don't believe that "in memoria" is correct. I can't really hear the "in" in the song. Perhaps it's "Noli manere memoriā" (don't remain through memory) or "Noli manere memoriam" (don't remain a memory)? But this is mostly speculation on my part and I'm not really sure, so I didn't make any changes. Anyone have any thoughts on this? -- Z-Ramm 20:55, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
(Sorry, removed lyrics as a copyright violation)
I changed "manare" to "manere" because in Latin "mano, as, avi, atum, are" in Latin means "to drip, to ooze, to seep", whereas "maneo, es, mansi, mansum, ere" means "to remain" and in the lyrics the chorus actually says "manEre"
- Warning: The above translation is almost entirely incorrect, and should not be relied upon. It mistranslates noli as "won't", a completely impossible rendering even for Medieval Latin. (It's actually "don't", an imperative.) It also uses poor, ambiguous translations for many simple words (dolor is "sorrow" or "pain" more than "misery", per se; "fierce" is a better translation for saevam—which is translated as "raging" here—than it is for ferum, which is best translated as simply "wild"; etc.), and completely BSes a certain important phrase ("ille iterum veniet") as somehow meaning "the second advent", when it unambiguously means "that man will come again", veniet being a future-tense verb, not a noun! The website we link to as an authority on these lyrics makes the exact same errors; if it didn't provide useful access to the original lyrics, I'd strongly advise removing the link altogether, lest people be badly misled by the poor-quality, inconsistent, pseudo-translations that even a first-year Latin student would be able to pick out. - Silence 08:29, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
I seriously doubt that lyrics to One-winged-Angel are free of copyright. If not, they clearly are unusable, as they do not comply with fair use policy. ' ( Feeling chatty? ) ( Edits!) 05:46, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
- The lyrics are a
derivative work of
Carmina Burana, and I suspect that since those lyrics are something like eight centuries old at this point, they probably not protected under copyright law. Ths music itself is off-limits, but I don't think the lyrics are problematic (though I'm willing to be corrected on this point). –
Seancdaug
06:32, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
- I have put up the question at
Wikipedia talk:Copyrights to bring the issue to the attention of more experienced users.
' (
Feeling chatty? ) (
Edits!)
01:13, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
- I saw your question on wt:copyrights and I'm responding here. I'm not sure I understand the situation exactly; If the lyrics are unmodified from the original 800 y.o. work, then they are not copyright and you can use them. If the new song takes the old lyrics and rearranges the lines in some way, or are drawn from multiple works, then the derivative work takes on a new copyright. You could probably quote a single stanza to give readers an impression of the lyrics, or if multiple stanzas are drawn, unmodified, from the original work, then you could quote them. Matt 01:27, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
- I have put up the question at
Wikipedia talk:Copyrights to bring the issue to the attention of more experienced users.
' (
Feeling chatty? ) (
Edits!)
01:13, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Merge of Sairin: Katayoku no Tenshi
Hibana marked Sairin: Katayoku no Tenshi to be merged here. I my opinion, there's scant little to be merged, though, at least here; Lyrics had to go from this article due to copyright concerns earlier, and what remains is some random fanrambling on wings which would be better suited for Sephiroth which - I guess, I'm not coffeed enough to check all that - may already include that stuff. -- wwwwolf ( barks/ growls) 20:38, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
- Is this section...
- "The Song shows the determination inside Sephiroth's soul to regain his position in the world.
- The Wing in question for the piece can be seen, after Cloud defeats him a second time with Omnislash (Version 5) and there is a large, black, angel wing off his right shoulder. In contrast, in the PS2 games Kingdom Hearts and Kingdom Hearts II Cloud is shown with one, black devil's wing coming off his left shoulder, which shows the two are diametrically opposed in ideologies."
- ...really necessary? I don't think it adds much other than information on Sephiroth, which, as Wwwwolf suggests, belongs elsewhere... especially the Kingdom Hearts II part. Z-Ramm 17:21, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
Sorry if my article caused anyone any grief with 'fanrambling' but we all begin somewhere right? Anyway, i had no idea that this would be such a hotly contested topic, so once again, I'm very sorry.
Duttman —The preceding
unsigned comment was added by
Duttman (
talk •
contribs) .
- Oh, there's nothing wrong with fanrambling, it's just that there's better places for that - either in other articles or perhaps other places (like ffwiki or Wikibooks.) In future, always consider expanding an existing article before starting a new article. In this case, the contents are probably much easier incorporated to other articles. -- wwwwolf ( barks/ growls) 08:56, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
Since the site we currently link to is extremely unreliable for translations of the Latin lyrics of the Advent verison of One-Winged Angel, I've put up accurate lyrics and translations on LyricWiki. If we could link to something more akin to that, we will avoid doing a disservice to our readers by badly misinforming them on the song's actual meaning. - Silence 09:02, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
I've revamped the Advent: OWA section a bit. Besides changing it into a subsection of "Arrangements," I did a lot of rewording. The main difference is that I removed most of the story-related elements from the section. I think that the spoilers and other details aren't really necessary in this article, since it's about the song and not FF7 or FF7AC themselves (they have their own respective articles) - I always hate using spoilers when not necessary, anyway.
If anyone disagrees, we can always go back, but I feel that this version makes more sense.
Does anyone know if Stravinsky was an influence for this? It definitely sounds like he could have been.
Other sources insist that the "Gloriosa, generosa" section is in fact Japanese instead of Latin, and says "Haryuu no hanekata". This apparently translates to "[The/one] winged one of the lower reaches". Personally, I've found it to be easily interpretable either way, though it would be interesting to get a native Japanese speaker's opinion on this. -- Kizor 06:58, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
- I managed to find one user in the
WikiProject Final Fantasy who is a native speaker of Japanese, that is
User:Peaceman, but he is currently on vacation for two weeks starting July 30. –
DarkEvil 13:15, August 2, 2005 (UTC)
- That's a smart approach, thanks! I'll go bug him when he gets back. --
Kizor
14:20, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
- This is a strange rumor along the lines of "Bokista" for Earthbound. First of all--the entire song's in latin. Why would one part be in Japanese? Remember, Liberali Fatali, too, or whatever it's called? Secondly, the alleged phrase doesn't make sense, although one sense of it is pesron. はりゅう (haryuu) isn't anything. The only closest word is はいゆう (haiyuu), which is actor/actress. はねかた (hanekata) also isn't a word. はね itself can mean wing, and かた itself can mean a plethora of things, none of them really making sense. I've been taking japanese for a while now, and I fear I actually may be missing something but はりゅうのはねかた just seems like nonsense. I'm just worried that there might be some credit to it since one of the words kind of sort of seems possible. I'll listen to the mp3 to see if it's another "Bokista." Lockeownzj00 15:54, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
- although this makes me tend to believe it is gloriosa, generosa.
- That's a smart approach, thanks! I'll go bug him when he gets back. --
Kizor
14:20, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
- Actually, I was lead to believe that it's "Haryuu no hanekata" in the version in game, and "Gloriosa, Generosa" in the orchestral version (in Reunion Tracks). I have the MP3 of the orchestral version, it definitely says Gloriosa / Generosa there. I have also recording of the battle in game; I can't make sense of what the choir says in it (PS version has such an abysmal sound quality =) --
Wwwwolf
11:06, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
- I spent some time listening to the official FFVII soundtrack (the four-CD version, not the Reunion Tracks compliation), and it sounds a lot like Gloriosa/Generosa there too. I'll give it another look ingame when I get a chance if you want, though. --
Technogeek
22:24, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
- I agree, it still sounds like "Gloriosa/Generosa" in the original game soundtrack. The only odd thing I notice there is that the first "e" in "Generosa" sounds much closer to an "a" sound (like "ha-na-ro-sa"), though this could have just been a pronunciation mistake. -- Z-Ramm 21:01, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
- I spent some time listening to the official FFVII soundtrack (the four-CD version, not the Reunion Tracks compliation), and it sounds a lot like Gloriosa/Generosa there too. I'll give it another look ingame when I get a chance if you want, though. --
Technogeek
22:24, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
- Hey folks! According to one transcription I found it was supposed to be "Karyuu no hane kata". I don't know damn about Japanese grammar or word use, but the site I nicked it from (with comments from people who supposedly know the language as well) and WWWJDIC seems to think this seems to be closer to the "winged one of lower reaches" translation popularly seen.
- I'd have one further question though, a far more difficult one: Should the Latin version have "Sephiros" or "Sephiroth"? What's the Latin version of the word, anyway? The choir in Reunion Tracks version does pronounce the name "Sephiros" though, but I don't know what it's meant to be.
- (BTW, I cleaned up the discussion here to use indents instead of bullets. I've always preferred "indent your skull" approach.) --
Wwwwolf
13:01, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
- Okay, I may be a bit hasty, but I did this: Changed "Sephiros" to "Sephiroth" in the Latin version. Latin spelling and pronunciation seems to say that there is "th" sound in Latin and it's pronounced more closer to "t" than "s". I think Latin uses "Sephiroth" too (okay, everyone's perfectly allowed to hit me with a very huge mallet for this - I've only seen the word in Latin in Neon Genesis Evangelion, which had that famous diagram titled "Systema Sephirothicum".) I'm perfectly aware that the choir in all known recordings sings "sephiros", but I just guess this is one of the pecularities of Japanese (otherwise we'd all be picking up Aerith from planet Zebeth, ho ho ho!) -- Wwwwolf 15:59, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
- Actually, the word Sephiroth cmes from Hebrew, not Latin. Is the name given in the Quabbalah to every one of the ten attributes that God createdin the physical and metaphyisical universe so he can use them as a projection of himself to the universe and mankind. (from the spanish Enciclopedia Católica
http://www.enciclopediacatolica.com/c/cabala.htm). That makes some sense because we tend to think of Safer Sephiroth as a demigod (that is, part of god), a VERY powerful guy... As it comes from Hebrew, it could be Sephiros or Sephiroth due to the inaccurate romanization of the name (because this romanizations are never 100% accurate) But the common use is Sephiroth (as many hebrew owords have this "th" suffix --
Andycyca|
say...
23:39, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
- I think it's just pronounced セフィロス in the song. 75.64.187.115 04:15, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
- Actually, the word Sephiroth cmes from Hebrew, not Latin. Is the name given in the Quabbalah to every one of the ten attributes that God createdin the physical and metaphyisical universe so he can use them as a projection of himself to the universe and mankind. (from the spanish Enciclopedia Católica
http://www.enciclopediacatolica.com/c/cabala.htm). That makes some sense because we tend to think of Safer Sephiroth as a demigod (that is, part of god), a VERY powerful guy... As it comes from Hebrew, it could be Sephiros or Sephiroth due to the inaccurate romanization of the name (because this romanizations are never 100% accurate) But the common use is Sephiroth (as many hebrew owords have this "th" suffix --
Andycyca|
say...
23:39, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
Here are the lyrics for Advent: One-Winged Angel. I can't figure out how to get them into the same format as the lyrics already on the page, but maybe someone else knows how.
- Added to the article. Now all it needs is a good check that the lyrics are actually spelled right and that the translation is good. I know this seems identical to the thing that's floating in the net, I wonder what the source is - CD notes? Hmm... -- Wwwwolf 11:47, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
- After listening to Advent: OWA many times, I disagree with the listing of the line "Ferum terribile, ferum fatum." I strongly believe that it's pronounced "Ferum terribile, terribile fatum" in the song, and so I changed it. I'm not 100% sure about it, but I took an educated guess at the translation of this (I took about a year's worth of Latin classes but I'm not an expert). On another note, I don't believe that "in memoria" is correct. I can't really hear the "in" in the song. Perhaps it's "Noli manere memoriā" (don't remain through memory) or "Noli manere memoriam" (don't remain a memory)? But this is mostly speculation on my part and I'm not really sure, so I didn't make any changes. Anyone have any thoughts on this? -- Z-Ramm 20:55, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
(Sorry, removed lyrics as a copyright violation)
I changed "manare" to "manere" because in Latin "mano, as, avi, atum, are" in Latin means "to drip, to ooze, to seep", whereas "maneo, es, mansi, mansum, ere" means "to remain" and in the lyrics the chorus actually says "manEre"
- Warning: The above translation is almost entirely incorrect, and should not be relied upon. It mistranslates noli as "won't", a completely impossible rendering even for Medieval Latin. (It's actually "don't", an imperative.) It also uses poor, ambiguous translations for many simple words (dolor is "sorrow" or "pain" more than "misery", per se; "fierce" is a better translation for saevam—which is translated as "raging" here—than it is for ferum, which is best translated as simply "wild"; etc.), and completely BSes a certain important phrase ("ille iterum veniet") as somehow meaning "the second advent", when it unambiguously means "that man will come again", veniet being a future-tense verb, not a noun! The website we link to as an authority on these lyrics makes the exact same errors; if it didn't provide useful access to the original lyrics, I'd strongly advise removing the link altogether, lest people be badly misled by the poor-quality, inconsistent, pseudo-translations that even a first-year Latin student would be able to pick out. - Silence 08:29, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
I seriously doubt that lyrics to One-winged-Angel are free of copyright. If not, they clearly are unusable, as they do not comply with fair use policy. ' ( Feeling chatty? ) ( Edits!) 05:46, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
- The lyrics are a
derivative work of
Carmina Burana, and I suspect that since those lyrics are something like eight centuries old at this point, they probably not protected under copyright law. Ths music itself is off-limits, but I don't think the lyrics are problematic (though I'm willing to be corrected on this point). –
Seancdaug
06:32, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
- I have put up the question at
Wikipedia talk:Copyrights to bring the issue to the attention of more experienced users.
' (
Feeling chatty? ) (
Edits!)
01:13, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
- I saw your question on wt:copyrights and I'm responding here. I'm not sure I understand the situation exactly; If the lyrics are unmodified from the original 800 y.o. work, then they are not copyright and you can use them. If the new song takes the old lyrics and rearranges the lines in some way, or are drawn from multiple works, then the derivative work takes on a new copyright. You could probably quote a single stanza to give readers an impression of the lyrics, or if multiple stanzas are drawn, unmodified, from the original work, then you could quote them. Matt 01:27, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
- I have put up the question at
Wikipedia talk:Copyrights to bring the issue to the attention of more experienced users.
' (
Feeling chatty? ) (
Edits!)
01:13, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Merge of Sairin: Katayoku no Tenshi
Hibana marked Sairin: Katayoku no Tenshi to be merged here. I my opinion, there's scant little to be merged, though, at least here; Lyrics had to go from this article due to copyright concerns earlier, and what remains is some random fanrambling on wings which would be better suited for Sephiroth which - I guess, I'm not coffeed enough to check all that - may already include that stuff. -- wwwwolf ( barks/ growls) 20:38, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
- Is this section...
- "The Song shows the determination inside Sephiroth's soul to regain his position in the world.
- The Wing in question for the piece can be seen, after Cloud defeats him a second time with Omnislash (Version 5) and there is a large, black, angel wing off his right shoulder. In contrast, in the PS2 games Kingdom Hearts and Kingdom Hearts II Cloud is shown with one, black devil's wing coming off his left shoulder, which shows the two are diametrically opposed in ideologies."
- ...really necessary? I don't think it adds much other than information on Sephiroth, which, as Wwwwolf suggests, belongs elsewhere... especially the Kingdom Hearts II part. Z-Ramm 17:21, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
Sorry if my article caused anyone any grief with 'fanrambling' but we all begin somewhere right? Anyway, i had no idea that this would be such a hotly contested topic, so once again, I'm very sorry.
Duttman —The preceding
unsigned comment was added by
Duttman (
talk •
contribs) .
- Oh, there's nothing wrong with fanrambling, it's just that there's better places for that - either in other articles or perhaps other places (like ffwiki or Wikibooks.) In future, always consider expanding an existing article before starting a new article. In this case, the contents are probably much easier incorporated to other articles. -- wwwwolf ( barks/ growls) 08:56, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
Since the site we currently link to is extremely unreliable for translations of the Latin lyrics of the Advent verison of One-Winged Angel, I've put up accurate lyrics and translations on LyricWiki. If we could link to something more akin to that, we will avoid doing a disservice to our readers by badly misinforming them on the song's actual meaning. - Silence 09:02, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
I've revamped the Advent: OWA section a bit. Besides changing it into a subsection of "Arrangements," I did a lot of rewording. The main difference is that I removed most of the story-related elements from the section. I think that the spoilers and other details aren't really necessary in this article, since it's about the song and not FF7 or FF7AC themselves (they have their own respective articles) - I always hate using spoilers when not necessary, anyway.
If anyone disagrees, we can always go back, but I feel that this version makes more sense.