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Before I edited it, the article was a whitewash of Karl Marx. My edits, however failed to take the neutral point of view, treating Marxism as uncontroversially and unambiguously evil. Subsequent edits by other people of what I wrote have restored the neutral point of view, without whitewashing Marx or communism.
So thanks for the edits, they seem fair to me now. James A. Donald 05:02, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
When discussing Marx's essay, this article frequently substitutes for Marx's brutal and menacing words, some bland interpretation of his words.
Marx's essay foreshadows numerous dreadful communist crimes. Marx was not some moderate social democrat objecting to the display of a nativity scene in a public square, and to reinterpret his essay as that sort of stuff is falsification, and to ignore the connections between his essay and the enormous crimes committed by communist regimes gives a misleading context to his words.
If it is relevant to Marx's essay that recently existent communism was not in fact a Jewish conspiracy, why is it irrelevant that recently existent communism was anti semitic? This article defends communism against the charge of being a Jewish conspiracy, but my mention of the communist purges of Jews from the party was deleted. If the one is relevant, why not the other?
James A. Donald 02:45, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
I am disturbed by the recent edits made by James A. Donald. Specifically, this user's recent edits obviously reflect his own stance toward Marx's text and not any kind of concensus; witness the following: "most scholars today seem to be in denial about Marx's plain words." I would take very significant issue with including this and other of James A. Donald's revisions in an encyclopedia article for the following reasons:
I have refrained from reverting this article yet because I hope to arrive at some sort of consensus about this issue. However, it seems to me that if the overwhelming majority of scholars present a case different from that found in James A. Donald's revisions, then these revisions are either A) wrong, and thus inappropriate for an encyclopedia, or B) the result of original research, and thus again inappropriate for an encyclopedia. Job L 08:11, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
I tried to make a compromise version. All comments are welcome. Academic Challenger 02:16, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
I deleted the quote "Let us consider the actual, worldly Jew – not the Sabbath Jew, as Bauer does, but the everyday Jew", because the first quote has already referred to "the worldly religion of the Jew". I inserted other quotes and explanations that I find important in order to clarify the text further. -- 85.187.44.131 17:44, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
I believe the use of 'acculturation' in this article is inappropriate. Acculturation implies an active transmission of a dominant ethos to those of an immigrant or otherwise marginal ethos, thus overwriting the indigenous way of life with the normative dominant way. The fact that Jews were barred from certain types of employment thus directing them to a particular vocational norm is not acculturation, perhaps 'marginalization' or 'socio-economic coercion' would be more accurate. -FreddieResearch 5/2/06
Personally, I don't know, but the wiki article on acculturation says: "Acculturation is the obtainment of culture by an individual or a group of people. The term originally applied only to the process concerning a foreign culture ... However, the term now has come to mean, in addition, the child-acquisition acculturation of native culture since infancy in the household."
-- 85.187.44.131 21:33, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
OK, this is a repetition of the info that is already present, with a lot of dubious moments. I say delete the whole thing except for Mir Haven's "anti-Semitic" references to Muravchik etc. If not - a "disputed neutrality" tag and "citation needed" tags all over the section. -- 85.187.44.131 18:27, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Well, look at it. First, it mentions the critics who believe the essay is anti-Semitic. Then, it pretends to explain what the work really, objectively contains. Finally, it refers to two scholars, without specifying who said what - I know for a fact that the only connection with Draper is the word "pun", and I very much doubt that the remaining exposition is taken from McLellan 100%. Until somebody gives me the exact quote, I am inclined to believe that it is exactly the same as the old part of the article - namely the essay retold by Wikipedians themselves. It could only stay if presented as ONE of many interpretations, but then you have to say whose interpretation it is, and I don't think that can be done at the moment. Now the problem with that retelling is that it distorts the facts - among other things, by claiming that Marx isn't referring to real Jews and to Judaism at all, which you, of course, know isn't true, as your last edit shows. That's very bad, and it does a disservice both to Marx (as people are going to think that somebody lied to "protect" him; there's already been one case of that) and to Wikipedia's reputation. So what I'll do is: Stage 1: put some tags at the problematic places; Stage 2: if you agree, move it to the talk page until somebody provides a source. -- 85.187.44.131 15:41, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Hi. I'm really sorry I didn't flag what I was doing with this edit. Basically, I was copyediting the Karl Marx page and I simply moved this information from there to here, because I felt that this is where it belonged. However, it was controversial there and the subject of a debate. So what I basically did is move that debate over to this article, which I realise I should at least have left a note here about it. 85.187.44.131, who was really the one who was most interested in it from what I've read of the discussion, consented to this move and his clearly moved over here, so it seems it's working out OK, n'est-ce pas? Mgekelly - Talk 06:20, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Absolutely. I'm really sorry El C thought that you were responsible for writing that text. :) -- 85.187.44.131 15:55, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.187.44.131 ( talk) 22:21, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
{{NPOV}} {{verify}} Some scholars have presented an alternative reading of Marx, primarily based on his essay On the Jewish Question. Economist Tyler Cowen, historian Marvin Perry, and political scientist Joshua Muravchik have suggested that what they see as an intense hatred for the "Jewish Class" was part of Marx's belief that if he could convince his contemporaries and the public to hate Jewish capitalists, the public would eventually come to dislike non-Jewish capitalists as well.
Most scholars reject this claim for two reasons: first, it is based on two short essays written in the 1840s, and ignores the bulk of Marx's analysis of capitalism written in the following years. Second, it distorts the argument of On the Jewish Question, in which Marx deconstructs liberal notions of emancipation. During the Enlightenment, philosophers and political theorists argued that religious authority had been oppressing human beings, and that religion must be separated from the functions of the state for people to be truly free. Following the French Revolution, many people were thus calling for the emancipation of the Jews.
At the same time, many argued that Christianity is a more enlightened and advanced religion than Judaism. For example, Marx's former mentor, Bruno Bauer, allegedly argued that Christians need to be emancipated only once (from Christianity), and Jews need to be emancipated twice — first from Judaism (presumably, by converting to Christianity), then from religion altogether.
Marx rejects Bauer's argument as a form of Christian ethnocentrism citation needed, if not anti-Semitic. Marx proceeds to turn Bauer's language, and the rhetoric of anti-Semites, upside down to make a more progressive argument. First, he points out that Bruno Bauer's argument is too parochial because it considers Christianity to be more evolved than Judaism citation needed, and because it narrowly defines the problem that requires emancipation to be religion. Marx instead argues that the issue is not religion, but capitalism. Pointing out that anti-Semitic stereotypes of Jews are fundamentally anti-capitalist citation needed, Marx provides a theory of anti-Semitism by suggesting that anti-Semites scapegoat Jews for capitalism because too many non-Jews benefit from, or are invested in capitalism, to attack capitalism directly citation needed.
Marx also uses this rhetoric ironically to develop his critique of bourgeois notions of emancipation. Marx points out that the bourgeois notion of freedom is predicated on choice citation needed (in politics, through elections; in the economy, through the market), but that this form of freedom is anti-social and alienating. Although Bauer and other liberals believe that emancipation means freedom to choose, Marx argues that this is at best a very narrow notion of freedom citation needed. Thus, what Bauer believes would be the emancipation of the Jews is for Marx actually alienation, not emancipation citation needed. After explaining that he is not referring to real Jews or to the Jewish religion citation needed, Marx appropriates this anti-Semitic rhetoric against itself (in a way that parallels his Hegelian argument that capitalism contains the seeds of its own destruction) by using "Judaism" ironically as a metaphor for capitalism. In this sense, Marx states, all Europeans are "Jewish". This is a pun on two levels. First, if the Jews must be emancipated, Marx is saying that all Europeans must be emancipated. Second, if by "Judaism" one really means "capitalism," then far from Jews needing to be emancipated from Christianity (as Bauer called for), Christians need to be emancipated from Judaism (meaning, bourgeois society). See: works by historian Hal Draper and David McLellan.
"Marx stresses, then, that he is speaking of "the actual, worldly Jew – not the Sabbath Jew, as Bauer does, but the everyday Jew." Meaning, not the [Sabbath] Jews who may devote their lives to studying the Kabalah and the Talmud, but those [worldly] Jews who in their daily economic activities are engaged in banking, trade, and finance."
My problem with this paragraph is that I don't think the interpretation of the quote is correct. The idea is not to distinguish between two kinds of Jews, but between two sides of Jewish life - the religious one and the material/economic one. That's why Marx says that he is talking about the actual Jew. For him, the "worldly", material side of life is the "actual", real one. -- 85.187.44.131 21:42, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
Well, I am somewhat missing a mention of one of Marx's works on Jewish question which is his "World Without Jews". Since I am not much skilled at Marxism, would like to go deeper into it but see this item missing even in the main entry of Karl Marx, then I must ask myself: isn't omitting works having a 'story to tell' a kind of POV? David
Dear Job: Definitely I did not mean to offend anyone, just tried to provoke a bit. I also agree that the WWJ is far from representative. But as to "implying some sort of anti-Semitic perspective on the part of Wikipedians" - I think you missed my point. My only "implication" is that all contributions should be as complete as possible as Wikipedia is projected to be the most accurate and complete source. Just imagine being an apologist of Karl Marx facing opposition (say, on the part of his Jewish question). Wouldn't you be stunned by not knowing what your partner knows, i.e. that Marx also authored a work which is much closer to anti-Semitism than his well known 'Zur Judenfrage' ? And still, why do so many Marxists omit this clearly less 'representative' work of Marx? David
Definitely no hard feelings. I have just realized that the work discussed is missing even in the Czech National Library in Prague which I can hardly suspect of POV:) Anyway, to find it and write an article is now likely to be a hard task. I will continue my search over time and hope to give a short mention some time. Thanks and best regards. David
Thanks, I agree that the point of Draper's note 1 is not Marx alleged antisemitism. So the previous wikipedia article was not accurate. In my new version, I've tried to give Draper's point more accurate. I think the links to the "worldsocialism" pages show that there were more articles of Marx included in the "World Without Jews" book, and that Runes indeed wanted to show Marx alleged antisemitism. However, I've taken out the part "Marx as antisemitic, which has been a frequent critique of his attitude toward Jews in the essay." again, since I'm not convinced that this really is a frequent critique from serious sources. Schwalker 21:33, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
By no means I'm in a position to decide how this article should look like. Nor would I have the education and ability to decide this on my own. But you asked what would convince me that there is a real debate. For example, I consider academic scholars discussing in peer reviewed journals as "serious sources". Also, any other public discussion should be of interest for wikipedia. Runes seems to be a renowned scholar, but his interpretation of the essay seemingly has not found acceptance by the academic mainstream as far as I know. I believe it is crucial to understand that Marx's rethorical questions (" What is the secular basis of Judaism? Practical need, self-interest.") are directed to, and answered from the Bauer essays. It seems this kind of Marx's ironic arguing escapes some interpretations. On the other hand, Robert Fine in his article on the Engage-site says: "There is no reason to think, as most commentators claim (including Julius Carlebach in his wonderfully erudite book Karl Marx and the Radical Critique of Judaism), that Marx for a moment accepted the ‘real Jew’ of Bauer’s anti-Semitic imagination to be empirically well grounded or an authentic image of Jews and Judaism." So if most (or some) commentators (for example Carlebach) really should have claimed that Marx did accept this stereotype, then this wikipedia article could document this claim with sources. With a search engine, it is easy to find web-sites of Holocaust revisionists, who misinterpret Marx and try to use him as a witness for their cause. These sites are examples of what I don't consider as serious sources. Schwalker 11:30, 15 March 2007 (UTC) Schwalker 09:04, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
There is currently an edit war about whether to include the category Antisemitic publications. I believe it should not be included because of the disagreement about how to interpret this work. There should be a discussion about this. Academic Challenger 01:31, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
"Marx uses Bauer's essay as an occasion for his own analysis of liberal rights, rather than an attack on Jews, though he does harshly attack the Jews." On the Jewish Question is most deninately a response to Bauer's essay, but to even consider it in terms of an attack on the Jews, I feel, is to completely misinterpret the purpose of the text.
Instead, Marx uses the Jewish question to reveal that there is something fundamentally flawed in Bauer's notion of political emancipation. Marx agrees with Bauer (although only to a limited extent) that political emancipation requires its religious counterpart, but Bauer's position is reversed when Marx shows that it is the secular state that is the most religious of all. This counter-intuitive idea comprises the theme of the text, with the main issues being political alienation, religious idealism and the relationship between these and the secular state. Ultimately, the purpose of the text is to introduce a distinction between political and human emancipation.
This user is very concerned that this article has taken a particular reading of Marx's text (and it must be emphasised that this text is part of a philosophical discourse) and has created what reads to me as a biased and mistated summary. No doubt the article remains relevant to the themes of anti-semitism, etc., but would be better suited as a sub-section within a proper discussion of Marx's text.
DS Close
20:53, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
The sentence "The essay has been seen by some writers as prefiguring the anti Semitism of various communist regimes" is marked as "citation needed." I have access to an ad that was published in The Nation for an edition of this essay which makes this claim. Yes or no on using the ad for a citation. Rlh 1984 01:21, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Hallo, if ad means advertisement then it is certainly not suitable to use it for a citation. Schwalker 23:09, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, I thought so (that's why I asked - no need to get your pants in a bunch). If this doesn't satisfy you, the claim is also made in The Marx-Engels Reader Second Edition edited by Roberts C. Tucker. Rlh 1984 01:21, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Why do the authors of this article go to such lengths to defend the plainly anti-Jewish sentiments of Marx?? Is it because he's an important historical figure with Jewish ancestory? So what? If some third-rate christian or muslim (non-Jewish) social scientist had made these exact same statements, he would have been mercilessly branded a rabid anti-semite!! Please re-evaluate the revisionist desires of the authors and make this article more fair and reasonable. Marx made numerous statements that were disparaging and disrespectful towards Jews. That's all there is to say. No "hypothetical" defense of his views not contained in his writing is warranted no matter how much you may "wish" he wasn't a bigot. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.27.196.13 (Talk) ( talk • contribs).
Recently, a paragraph, followed by five quotes from OtJQ, had been added to the article.
This paragraph subsequently had been replaced by this two sentences, again followed by the five quotes:
In my opinion, the claim that Marx's writings employed traditional antisemitic language should be supported by a reliable source. Otherwise the article would carry out original research. The second sentence seems to claim that the quotes from OtJQ are in fact examples for traditional antisemitism. Again, this claim would need the support of a reliable source.
Therefore, I have deleted the fist sentence, and replaced the second sentence by
I have also included two quotes from Draper 1977 about Marx's use of language.-- Schwalker 11:54, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
Schwalker, I'm sorry, but this is the only post I'm going to make here, because I can't afford to discuss and/or edit war about this (or anything else on Wikipedia) day after day. The only reason why I made my edits was because I had invested much effort in editing and discussing it about a year ago and hated to see the way it had become worse in many ways. I spent a lot of time fixing it now, too, but struggling with another editor over this fixing, on top of it all, is just more than I can handle. Here is the explanation for the only (partial) revert that I am going to make, in the form of responses to your edit summaries:
"it is frequently argued..", "..quotes cited as..", "sometimes cited": who? where?;
"Marx&Judaism is intended as discussion of part II"
"partially rv paragraph added to current summary:redundances, "disappearance of religion"not exactly in essay, "within hitherto existing world order" no genuine quote)"
"hotly debated":by who?
"complex and somewhat" (metaphorical argument) - unclear interpretation
notion "capitalism" is not used by Marx yet
I also disagree with this rearrangement, because info about Marx' other related publications is more suitable either before or after all analyses, but certainly not in-between them (between the "Interpretaions" section and the "Marx and Judaism" section).
Best wishes, -- 91.148.159.4 00:53, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
Following paragraph had been added by an editor to the end of the summary of part I in the "Political and human emancipation" section:
I had partially reverted this edit by shifting the "Bauer fails to distinguish between political emancipation and human emancipation" part into an earlier paragraph, and deleting the other material. My comment was:
Subsequently, my edit had been reverted again by the other editor, who in Talk:On_the_Jewish_Question#My_edits gave the following reasons:
My comments:
-- Schwalker 15:05, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
That's not the title of the published book form of Marx's work on the Jewish Question. -- Ludvikus ( talk) 04:43, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
The correct title, as it was first published in the English language is World Without Jews [1] & [2] -- Ludvikus ( talk) 04:54, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
Here's the LOC on it:
This has been listed on WP:RM as a move from A World Without Jews to On the Jewish Question.
ISTM that the first question is: What is the article about? Specifically, if it's to be about the English translation of 1959, then in terms of WP:NC the existing name A World Without Jews is probably the one. On the other hand, if it's about the original German article of 1843, the question is more open; I'd guess that Zur Judenfrage is the most likely contender. Andrewa ( talk) 09:55, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
'
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A World Without Jews [4], [5] a.k.a. On the Jewish Question ( German: Zur Judenfrage), is a 1959, 51 page book, published as a hardback, of a newspaper article(s) by Karl Marx originally written or published in autumn 1843.
It is disputed whether or not it is anti-Semitic (see below).
Scholars of Marxism maintain that it is one of Marx's earliest attempts to deal with categories that would later be called the materialist conception of history.
You put the minor title before the dominant one (we're unsure if it the alternate should even be mentioned in the lead — also un-ref'd, untitled, plain url sources are problematic for the article, highly problematic for the lead paragraph, and immensely so for the lead sentence). The Marxian scholars is an unnecessary qualification — other, non-Marxian scholars also maintain this. The bite-sized paragraph that attributes antisemitism to Marx and this work beyond how it's treated in the mainstream and academia. None of the changes should be kept at this time. El_C 15:22, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
I just stopped of at the Library of Congress. They have Seven (7) titles for this uniform title. See how many ones are in English:
That doesn't respond to anything I said with respect to usage in the English-speaking world. El_C 16:41, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
Anyway, what is clear: we have various English translations of "The Jewish Question" title, widely used by modern scholars in the West (see above; I haven't even touched the East: also translated the same). On the other side, we have a single "A World Without Jews" translated title, scarcely used in the scholarship (online: for eg., google scholar: less than 100 mentions vs. 3,500; in print: in various compilations and so on). El_C 17:27, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
So, what now? It's been moved, despite the move debate still having several days to run. The move notice at WP:RM still reads A World Without Jews → On the Jewish Question but the one on this page now reads It has been proposed below that On the Jewish Question be renamed and moved to On the Jewish Question. Do I move it back and protect it? That would mean that the current lead section was completely out of step with the title. Suggestions welcome, please try to make them consistent to Wikipedia policy, procedures etc.. Andrewa ( talk) 17:45, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
Ludvikus, if you had read the wikipedia article you would know that a manuscript of the essay Zur Judenfrage has not been transmitted. According to books.google, the book Anti-Semitism and the Jewish Question by I. Rennap from 1943 has a paragraph "Marx on the Jewish Question" on page 65. Thus it seems that the essay had been called On the Jewish Question in English language before the book of Runes appeared in 1959. Greetings, -- Schwalker ( talk) 20:09, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
If I had followed the link to the 1950 English translation of Abram Leon: The Jewish Question, I had known from footnote 3 that the essay had been published as On the Jewish Question, in an edition Selected Essays by Karl Marx (New York, 1926), p.88. Greeting, -- Schwalker ( talk) 21:11, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was no consensus. JPG-GR ( talk) 06:20, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
The title of the 1926 translation has a minuscule 't' in 'the'. This version is used in most secondary texts which refer to the English title of the essay. Thus this article's title should use a lower case 't', too. -- Schwalker ( talk) 21:35, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
On WP:RM, User:Ludvikus has written:
My comment: This seems not correct, since the translations by Stenning 1926 and by Lederer 1958 both use the lower case 't'. I can't see a "WP consensus" which would agree with a capital 'T'. Greeting -- Schwalker ( talk) 15:02, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
Hmmm... the move notice now reads It has been proposed below that On The Jewish Question be renamed and moved to On the Jewish Question, indicating that the only issue still to be resolved on the subject of the article name is whether this t should be upper or lower case. Is this true? Well done team if so! Andrewa ( talk) 15:33, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
Moved from RM:
User:VoluntarySlave, in answer to your question, almost right above, here I give you the Secondary Source you ask for:
"A WORLD WITHOUT JEWS
- Under the above heading a small book has been issued consisting mainly of articles by Karl Marx on "The Jewish Question."
These articles were first published in 1844, partly in the "German-French Yearbook" (1) and partly in "The Holy Family" (2),
and form part of the criticism by Marx and Engels of the Young Hegelian viewpoint, with particular reference to the views of Bruno Bauer, a leading exponent of this viewpoint."
That's the definitive title based on the collected works published by the reference in that External link; it's also derived from ::the Marx-Engles Institute which, I recollect, was also published by International Publishers. But as a single book, in the English speaking world we only have A World Without Jews, a compilation by Dagobert D. Runes, in 1959. That's extremely import - because that's the source of the view that Marx was an anti-Semite. -- Ludvikus ( talk) 04:58, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Here's the latest unreverted version:
I just found this interesting posting on the web:
That's from the Web. [10] (& you guys say it's obscure/irrelevant, etc.) -- Ludvikus ( talk) 00:14, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
He guys, check this source (but proceed with caution: it's from a Historical Revisionism source, Journal of Historical Review, Karl Marx: Anti-Semite by James B. Whisker): [11]:
To clarify the issues on this clutter page I give the following summary:
I did not "pick" the MIA page as a source. Anyway, it is irrelevant which sources I have picked, since this article is about the essay by Marx, and has to adjust to the spelling used by the most relevant scholary sources. Also it is irrelevant whether me or some other Wikipedian understands or appreciates the meaning of an upper case 'T', since we are obliged to follow the neutral point of view policy. Greeting, -- Schwalker ( talk) 07:31, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Part of a series on |
Marxism |
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So where does the work belong on the {{Marxism}} Template? -- Ludvikus ( talk) 02:07, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Here it is: [18]: it is a book ( Library of Congress):
Here's the online library card catalog listing of Hebrew Union College – Jewish Institute of Religion
Let's discuss here the difference regarding the 1959 text. It has been shown above that A World Without Jews is not at all an obscure worrk, contrary to the WP:Original research view of one WP editor.-- Ludvikus ( talk) 18:24, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Since the current one, single, editor persists in reverting all my work, and wishing to avoid an edit War, I'll simply archive here what I think is a better opening than what we have at the moment, and let others do with it as they see fit (-- Ludvikus ( talk) 20:12, 5 May 2008 (UTC)):
According to Andrew Valls's "Race and Racism in Modern Philosophy" (p. 242): "It is particularly in the early writings that commentators find traces of an anti-Semitism that some of them diagnose as Jewish self-hatred. The primary text is "On the Jewish Question," which first appeared in English under the title "World without Jews."
Julius Carlebach in "Karl Marx and the Radical Critique of Judaism" (p.447) when talking about "A World without Jews" says: "One of the best known but least valuable editions of Marx's essays, which are represented as purely anti-semitic. The presentation is less than scholarly, part of Marx's passages from the Holy Family being added to the essays but not identified, and the editor's comment are highly polemical. As a translation, it is, however, accurate."
So according to these two sources "World Without Jews" is first and one of the best known translations of this work.
-- Vision Thing -- 16:25, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
Runes is known for his Dictionary of Philosophy (1942) which he edited. The following distinguished authorities participated in the project (Initials/Names): A.C. ---- Alonzo Church A.C.B. ---- A. Cornelius Benjamin A.C.E. ---- A. C. Ewing A.C.P. ---- A. C. Pegis A.G.A.B. ---- Albert G. A. Balz A.J.B. ---- Archie J. Bahm B.A.G.F. ---- B. A. G. Fuller C.A.B. ---- Charles A. Baylis C.A.H. ---- Charles A. Hart C.G.H. ---- Carl G. Hempel C.J.D. ---- C. J. Ducasse C.K.D. ---- C. K. Davenport D.C. ---- Dorion Cairns E.A.M. ---- Ernest A. Moody E.C. ---- Emmanuel Chapman E.F. ---- Erich Frank E.H. ---- Eugene Holmes E.S.B. ---- Edgar Sheffield Brightman F.L.W. ---- Frederick L. Will F.M.G. ---- Felix M. Gatz F.K. ---- Fritz Kunz F.S.C.N. ---- F. S. C. Northrop G.B. ---- George Boas G.R.M. ---- Glenn R. Morrow G.W.C. ---- G. Watts Cunningham H.G. ---- Hunter Guthrie H.Go. ---- Heinrich Gomperz H.H. ---- Herman Hausheer H.L.G. ---- H. L. Gordon I.J. ---- Iredell Jenkins J.E.B. ---- John Edward Bentley J.J.R. ---- J. J. Rolbiecki J.K.F. ---- James K. Feibleman J.M. ---- Joseph Maier J.A.F. ---- Jose A. Franquiz J.M.S. ---- J. MacPherson Somerville J.R.W. ---- Julius R. Weinberg K.F.L. ---- Kurt F. Leidecker K.G. ---- Katharine Gilbert L.E.D. ---- Lester E. Denonn L.M.H. ---- Lewis M. Hammond L.V. ---- Lionello Venturi L.W. ---- Ledger Wood M.B. ---- Max Black M.T.K. ---- Morris T. Keeton M.B.M. ---- Marcus B. Mallett M.F. ---- Max Fishler M.W. ---- Meyer Waxmann O.F.K. ---- Otto F. Kraushaar P.A.S. ---- Paul A. Schilpp P.O.K. ---- Paul O. Kristeller P.P.W.. ---- Philip Paul Wiener P.W. ---- Paul Weiss R.A. ---- Rudolf Allers R.B.W. ---- Ralph B. Winn R.C. ---- Rudolf Carnap R.M.J. ---- Rufus M. Jones R.T.F. ---- Ralph Tyler Flewelling S.v.F. ---- Sigmar von Fersen S.S.S. ---- S. S. Stevens T.G. ---- Thomas Greenwood T.M. ---- Thomas Munro V.F. ---- Vergilius Ferm V.J.B. ---- Vernon J. Bourke V.J.M. ---- V. J. McGill W.E. ---- Walter Eckstein W.F. ---- William Frankena W.L. ---- Wilbur Long W.M.M. ---- William Marias Malisoff W.N.P ---- W. Norman Ptttenger W.S.W. ---- William S. Weedon W.T.C. ---- W. T. Chan
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This article concentrates on the second part exclusively, and in so, misses much of the point.
The point is not to 'abolish religion'! It is more in the realm of the discussion on the 'Separation of Church and State'. The second part is a take off from a small section of the first. {'...[L]ife in civil society, in which he acts as a private individual, regards other men as a means, degrades himself into a means, and becomes the plaything of alien powers.'} In simplified terms, it is about the de-institutionalization of religion, religion on a 'human basis'.
In the perfect democracy, the religious and theological consciousness itself is in its own eyes the more religious and the more theological because it is apparently without political significance... Christianity attains, here, the _practical_ expression of its universal-religious significance in that the most diverse world outlooks are grouped alongside one another in the form of Christianity and still more because it does not require other people to profess Christianity, but only religion in general, any kind of religion. The religious consciousness revels in the wealth of religious contradictions and religious diversity.
The duality of' ...Jew and citizen, Protestant and citizen, religious man and citizen'... which 'is political emancipation itself' 'This secular conflict, to which the Jewish question ultimately reduces itself, [is] the relation between the political state and its preconditions, whether these are material elements, such as private property, etc., or spiritual elements, such as culture or religion, the conflict between the general interest and private interest, the schism between the political state and civil society... '
'...[Giving] it even externally the form of a purely individual affair. It has been thrust among the multitude of private interests and ejected from the community as such. But one should be under no illusion about the limits of political emancipation. The division of the human being into a _public_ man and a _private_ man, the displacement of religion from the state into civil society, this is not a stage of political emancipation but its completion; this emancipation, therefore, neither abolished the real religiousness of man, nor strives to do so.'
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Last edited at 10:32, 10 March 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 21:50, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
Before I edited it, the article was a whitewash of Karl Marx. My edits, however failed to take the neutral point of view, treating Marxism as uncontroversially and unambiguously evil. Subsequent edits by other people of what I wrote have restored the neutral point of view, without whitewashing Marx or communism.
So thanks for the edits, they seem fair to me now. James A. Donald 05:02, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
When discussing Marx's essay, this article frequently substitutes for Marx's brutal and menacing words, some bland interpretation of his words.
Marx's essay foreshadows numerous dreadful communist crimes. Marx was not some moderate social democrat objecting to the display of a nativity scene in a public square, and to reinterpret his essay as that sort of stuff is falsification, and to ignore the connections between his essay and the enormous crimes committed by communist regimes gives a misleading context to his words.
If it is relevant to Marx's essay that recently existent communism was not in fact a Jewish conspiracy, why is it irrelevant that recently existent communism was anti semitic? This article defends communism against the charge of being a Jewish conspiracy, but my mention of the communist purges of Jews from the party was deleted. If the one is relevant, why not the other?
James A. Donald 02:45, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
I am disturbed by the recent edits made by James A. Donald. Specifically, this user's recent edits obviously reflect his own stance toward Marx's text and not any kind of concensus; witness the following: "most scholars today seem to be in denial about Marx's plain words." I would take very significant issue with including this and other of James A. Donald's revisions in an encyclopedia article for the following reasons:
I have refrained from reverting this article yet because I hope to arrive at some sort of consensus about this issue. However, it seems to me that if the overwhelming majority of scholars present a case different from that found in James A. Donald's revisions, then these revisions are either A) wrong, and thus inappropriate for an encyclopedia, or B) the result of original research, and thus again inappropriate for an encyclopedia. Job L 08:11, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
I tried to make a compromise version. All comments are welcome. Academic Challenger 02:16, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
I deleted the quote "Let us consider the actual, worldly Jew – not the Sabbath Jew, as Bauer does, but the everyday Jew", because the first quote has already referred to "the worldly religion of the Jew". I inserted other quotes and explanations that I find important in order to clarify the text further. -- 85.187.44.131 17:44, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
I believe the use of 'acculturation' in this article is inappropriate. Acculturation implies an active transmission of a dominant ethos to those of an immigrant or otherwise marginal ethos, thus overwriting the indigenous way of life with the normative dominant way. The fact that Jews were barred from certain types of employment thus directing them to a particular vocational norm is not acculturation, perhaps 'marginalization' or 'socio-economic coercion' would be more accurate. -FreddieResearch 5/2/06
Personally, I don't know, but the wiki article on acculturation says: "Acculturation is the obtainment of culture by an individual or a group of people. The term originally applied only to the process concerning a foreign culture ... However, the term now has come to mean, in addition, the child-acquisition acculturation of native culture since infancy in the household."
-- 85.187.44.131 21:33, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
OK, this is a repetition of the info that is already present, with a lot of dubious moments. I say delete the whole thing except for Mir Haven's "anti-Semitic" references to Muravchik etc. If not - a "disputed neutrality" tag and "citation needed" tags all over the section. -- 85.187.44.131 18:27, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Well, look at it. First, it mentions the critics who believe the essay is anti-Semitic. Then, it pretends to explain what the work really, objectively contains. Finally, it refers to two scholars, without specifying who said what - I know for a fact that the only connection with Draper is the word "pun", and I very much doubt that the remaining exposition is taken from McLellan 100%. Until somebody gives me the exact quote, I am inclined to believe that it is exactly the same as the old part of the article - namely the essay retold by Wikipedians themselves. It could only stay if presented as ONE of many interpretations, but then you have to say whose interpretation it is, and I don't think that can be done at the moment. Now the problem with that retelling is that it distorts the facts - among other things, by claiming that Marx isn't referring to real Jews and to Judaism at all, which you, of course, know isn't true, as your last edit shows. That's very bad, and it does a disservice both to Marx (as people are going to think that somebody lied to "protect" him; there's already been one case of that) and to Wikipedia's reputation. So what I'll do is: Stage 1: put some tags at the problematic places; Stage 2: if you agree, move it to the talk page until somebody provides a source. -- 85.187.44.131 15:41, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Hi. I'm really sorry I didn't flag what I was doing with this edit. Basically, I was copyediting the Karl Marx page and I simply moved this information from there to here, because I felt that this is where it belonged. However, it was controversial there and the subject of a debate. So what I basically did is move that debate over to this article, which I realise I should at least have left a note here about it. 85.187.44.131, who was really the one who was most interested in it from what I've read of the discussion, consented to this move and his clearly moved over here, so it seems it's working out OK, n'est-ce pas? Mgekelly - Talk 06:20, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Absolutely. I'm really sorry El C thought that you were responsible for writing that text. :) -- 85.187.44.131 15:55, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.187.44.131 ( talk) 22:21, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
{{NPOV}} {{verify}} Some scholars have presented an alternative reading of Marx, primarily based on his essay On the Jewish Question. Economist Tyler Cowen, historian Marvin Perry, and political scientist Joshua Muravchik have suggested that what they see as an intense hatred for the "Jewish Class" was part of Marx's belief that if he could convince his contemporaries and the public to hate Jewish capitalists, the public would eventually come to dislike non-Jewish capitalists as well.
Most scholars reject this claim for two reasons: first, it is based on two short essays written in the 1840s, and ignores the bulk of Marx's analysis of capitalism written in the following years. Second, it distorts the argument of On the Jewish Question, in which Marx deconstructs liberal notions of emancipation. During the Enlightenment, philosophers and political theorists argued that religious authority had been oppressing human beings, and that religion must be separated from the functions of the state for people to be truly free. Following the French Revolution, many people were thus calling for the emancipation of the Jews.
At the same time, many argued that Christianity is a more enlightened and advanced religion than Judaism. For example, Marx's former mentor, Bruno Bauer, allegedly argued that Christians need to be emancipated only once (from Christianity), and Jews need to be emancipated twice — first from Judaism (presumably, by converting to Christianity), then from religion altogether.
Marx rejects Bauer's argument as a form of Christian ethnocentrism citation needed, if not anti-Semitic. Marx proceeds to turn Bauer's language, and the rhetoric of anti-Semites, upside down to make a more progressive argument. First, he points out that Bruno Bauer's argument is too parochial because it considers Christianity to be more evolved than Judaism citation needed, and because it narrowly defines the problem that requires emancipation to be religion. Marx instead argues that the issue is not religion, but capitalism. Pointing out that anti-Semitic stereotypes of Jews are fundamentally anti-capitalist citation needed, Marx provides a theory of anti-Semitism by suggesting that anti-Semites scapegoat Jews for capitalism because too many non-Jews benefit from, or are invested in capitalism, to attack capitalism directly citation needed.
Marx also uses this rhetoric ironically to develop his critique of bourgeois notions of emancipation. Marx points out that the bourgeois notion of freedom is predicated on choice citation needed (in politics, through elections; in the economy, through the market), but that this form of freedom is anti-social and alienating. Although Bauer and other liberals believe that emancipation means freedom to choose, Marx argues that this is at best a very narrow notion of freedom citation needed. Thus, what Bauer believes would be the emancipation of the Jews is for Marx actually alienation, not emancipation citation needed. After explaining that he is not referring to real Jews or to the Jewish religion citation needed, Marx appropriates this anti-Semitic rhetoric against itself (in a way that parallels his Hegelian argument that capitalism contains the seeds of its own destruction) by using "Judaism" ironically as a metaphor for capitalism. In this sense, Marx states, all Europeans are "Jewish". This is a pun on two levels. First, if the Jews must be emancipated, Marx is saying that all Europeans must be emancipated. Second, if by "Judaism" one really means "capitalism," then far from Jews needing to be emancipated from Christianity (as Bauer called for), Christians need to be emancipated from Judaism (meaning, bourgeois society). See: works by historian Hal Draper and David McLellan.
"Marx stresses, then, that he is speaking of "the actual, worldly Jew – not the Sabbath Jew, as Bauer does, but the everyday Jew." Meaning, not the [Sabbath] Jews who may devote their lives to studying the Kabalah and the Talmud, but those [worldly] Jews who in their daily economic activities are engaged in banking, trade, and finance."
My problem with this paragraph is that I don't think the interpretation of the quote is correct. The idea is not to distinguish between two kinds of Jews, but between two sides of Jewish life - the religious one and the material/economic one. That's why Marx says that he is talking about the actual Jew. For him, the "worldly", material side of life is the "actual", real one. -- 85.187.44.131 21:42, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
Well, I am somewhat missing a mention of one of Marx's works on Jewish question which is his "World Without Jews". Since I am not much skilled at Marxism, would like to go deeper into it but see this item missing even in the main entry of Karl Marx, then I must ask myself: isn't omitting works having a 'story to tell' a kind of POV? David
Dear Job: Definitely I did not mean to offend anyone, just tried to provoke a bit. I also agree that the WWJ is far from representative. But as to "implying some sort of anti-Semitic perspective on the part of Wikipedians" - I think you missed my point. My only "implication" is that all contributions should be as complete as possible as Wikipedia is projected to be the most accurate and complete source. Just imagine being an apologist of Karl Marx facing opposition (say, on the part of his Jewish question). Wouldn't you be stunned by not knowing what your partner knows, i.e. that Marx also authored a work which is much closer to anti-Semitism than his well known 'Zur Judenfrage' ? And still, why do so many Marxists omit this clearly less 'representative' work of Marx? David
Definitely no hard feelings. I have just realized that the work discussed is missing even in the Czech National Library in Prague which I can hardly suspect of POV:) Anyway, to find it and write an article is now likely to be a hard task. I will continue my search over time and hope to give a short mention some time. Thanks and best regards. David
Thanks, I agree that the point of Draper's note 1 is not Marx alleged antisemitism. So the previous wikipedia article was not accurate. In my new version, I've tried to give Draper's point more accurate. I think the links to the "worldsocialism" pages show that there were more articles of Marx included in the "World Without Jews" book, and that Runes indeed wanted to show Marx alleged antisemitism. However, I've taken out the part "Marx as antisemitic, which has been a frequent critique of his attitude toward Jews in the essay." again, since I'm not convinced that this really is a frequent critique from serious sources. Schwalker 21:33, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
By no means I'm in a position to decide how this article should look like. Nor would I have the education and ability to decide this on my own. But you asked what would convince me that there is a real debate. For example, I consider academic scholars discussing in peer reviewed journals as "serious sources". Also, any other public discussion should be of interest for wikipedia. Runes seems to be a renowned scholar, but his interpretation of the essay seemingly has not found acceptance by the academic mainstream as far as I know. I believe it is crucial to understand that Marx's rethorical questions (" What is the secular basis of Judaism? Practical need, self-interest.") are directed to, and answered from the Bauer essays. It seems this kind of Marx's ironic arguing escapes some interpretations. On the other hand, Robert Fine in his article on the Engage-site says: "There is no reason to think, as most commentators claim (including Julius Carlebach in his wonderfully erudite book Karl Marx and the Radical Critique of Judaism), that Marx for a moment accepted the ‘real Jew’ of Bauer’s anti-Semitic imagination to be empirically well grounded or an authentic image of Jews and Judaism." So if most (or some) commentators (for example Carlebach) really should have claimed that Marx did accept this stereotype, then this wikipedia article could document this claim with sources. With a search engine, it is easy to find web-sites of Holocaust revisionists, who misinterpret Marx and try to use him as a witness for their cause. These sites are examples of what I don't consider as serious sources. Schwalker 11:30, 15 March 2007 (UTC) Schwalker 09:04, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
There is currently an edit war about whether to include the category Antisemitic publications. I believe it should not be included because of the disagreement about how to interpret this work. There should be a discussion about this. Academic Challenger 01:31, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
"Marx uses Bauer's essay as an occasion for his own analysis of liberal rights, rather than an attack on Jews, though he does harshly attack the Jews." On the Jewish Question is most deninately a response to Bauer's essay, but to even consider it in terms of an attack on the Jews, I feel, is to completely misinterpret the purpose of the text.
Instead, Marx uses the Jewish question to reveal that there is something fundamentally flawed in Bauer's notion of political emancipation. Marx agrees with Bauer (although only to a limited extent) that political emancipation requires its religious counterpart, but Bauer's position is reversed when Marx shows that it is the secular state that is the most religious of all. This counter-intuitive idea comprises the theme of the text, with the main issues being political alienation, religious idealism and the relationship between these and the secular state. Ultimately, the purpose of the text is to introduce a distinction between political and human emancipation.
This user is very concerned that this article has taken a particular reading of Marx's text (and it must be emphasised that this text is part of a philosophical discourse) and has created what reads to me as a biased and mistated summary. No doubt the article remains relevant to the themes of anti-semitism, etc., but would be better suited as a sub-section within a proper discussion of Marx's text.
DS Close
20:53, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
The sentence "The essay has been seen by some writers as prefiguring the anti Semitism of various communist regimes" is marked as "citation needed." I have access to an ad that was published in The Nation for an edition of this essay which makes this claim. Yes or no on using the ad for a citation. Rlh 1984 01:21, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Hallo, if ad means advertisement then it is certainly not suitable to use it for a citation. Schwalker 23:09, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, I thought so (that's why I asked - no need to get your pants in a bunch). If this doesn't satisfy you, the claim is also made in The Marx-Engels Reader Second Edition edited by Roberts C. Tucker. Rlh 1984 01:21, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Why do the authors of this article go to such lengths to defend the plainly anti-Jewish sentiments of Marx?? Is it because he's an important historical figure with Jewish ancestory? So what? If some third-rate christian or muslim (non-Jewish) social scientist had made these exact same statements, he would have been mercilessly branded a rabid anti-semite!! Please re-evaluate the revisionist desires of the authors and make this article more fair and reasonable. Marx made numerous statements that were disparaging and disrespectful towards Jews. That's all there is to say. No "hypothetical" defense of his views not contained in his writing is warranted no matter how much you may "wish" he wasn't a bigot. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.27.196.13 (Talk) ( talk • contribs).
Recently, a paragraph, followed by five quotes from OtJQ, had been added to the article.
This paragraph subsequently had been replaced by this two sentences, again followed by the five quotes:
In my opinion, the claim that Marx's writings employed traditional antisemitic language should be supported by a reliable source. Otherwise the article would carry out original research. The second sentence seems to claim that the quotes from OtJQ are in fact examples for traditional antisemitism. Again, this claim would need the support of a reliable source.
Therefore, I have deleted the fist sentence, and replaced the second sentence by
I have also included two quotes from Draper 1977 about Marx's use of language.-- Schwalker 11:54, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
Schwalker, I'm sorry, but this is the only post I'm going to make here, because I can't afford to discuss and/or edit war about this (or anything else on Wikipedia) day after day. The only reason why I made my edits was because I had invested much effort in editing and discussing it about a year ago and hated to see the way it had become worse in many ways. I spent a lot of time fixing it now, too, but struggling with another editor over this fixing, on top of it all, is just more than I can handle. Here is the explanation for the only (partial) revert that I am going to make, in the form of responses to your edit summaries:
"it is frequently argued..", "..quotes cited as..", "sometimes cited": who? where?;
"Marx&Judaism is intended as discussion of part II"
"partially rv paragraph added to current summary:redundances, "disappearance of religion"not exactly in essay, "within hitherto existing world order" no genuine quote)"
"hotly debated":by who?
"complex and somewhat" (metaphorical argument) - unclear interpretation
notion "capitalism" is not used by Marx yet
I also disagree with this rearrangement, because info about Marx' other related publications is more suitable either before or after all analyses, but certainly not in-between them (between the "Interpretaions" section and the "Marx and Judaism" section).
Best wishes, -- 91.148.159.4 00:53, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
Following paragraph had been added by an editor to the end of the summary of part I in the "Political and human emancipation" section:
I had partially reverted this edit by shifting the "Bauer fails to distinguish between political emancipation and human emancipation" part into an earlier paragraph, and deleting the other material. My comment was:
Subsequently, my edit had been reverted again by the other editor, who in Talk:On_the_Jewish_Question#My_edits gave the following reasons:
My comments:
-- Schwalker 15:05, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
That's not the title of the published book form of Marx's work on the Jewish Question. -- Ludvikus ( talk) 04:43, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
The correct title, as it was first published in the English language is World Without Jews [1] & [2] -- Ludvikus ( talk) 04:54, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
Here's the LOC on it:
This has been listed on WP:RM as a move from A World Without Jews to On the Jewish Question.
ISTM that the first question is: What is the article about? Specifically, if it's to be about the English translation of 1959, then in terms of WP:NC the existing name A World Without Jews is probably the one. On the other hand, if it's about the original German article of 1843, the question is more open; I'd guess that Zur Judenfrage is the most likely contender. Andrewa ( talk) 09:55, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
'
This article may require cleanup to meet Wikipedia's quality standards. No cleanup reason has been specified. Please help improve this article if you can. |
A World Without Jews [4], [5] a.k.a. On the Jewish Question ( German: Zur Judenfrage), is a 1959, 51 page book, published as a hardback, of a newspaper article(s) by Karl Marx originally written or published in autumn 1843.
It is disputed whether or not it is anti-Semitic (see below).
Scholars of Marxism maintain that it is one of Marx's earliest attempts to deal with categories that would later be called the materialist conception of history.
You put the minor title before the dominant one (we're unsure if it the alternate should even be mentioned in the lead — also un-ref'd, untitled, plain url sources are problematic for the article, highly problematic for the lead paragraph, and immensely so for the lead sentence). The Marxian scholars is an unnecessary qualification — other, non-Marxian scholars also maintain this. The bite-sized paragraph that attributes antisemitism to Marx and this work beyond how it's treated in the mainstream and academia. None of the changes should be kept at this time. El_C 15:22, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
I just stopped of at the Library of Congress. They have Seven (7) titles for this uniform title. See how many ones are in English:
That doesn't respond to anything I said with respect to usage in the English-speaking world. El_C 16:41, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
Anyway, what is clear: we have various English translations of "The Jewish Question" title, widely used by modern scholars in the West (see above; I haven't even touched the East: also translated the same). On the other side, we have a single "A World Without Jews" translated title, scarcely used in the scholarship (online: for eg., google scholar: less than 100 mentions vs. 3,500; in print: in various compilations and so on). El_C 17:27, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
So, what now? It's been moved, despite the move debate still having several days to run. The move notice at WP:RM still reads A World Without Jews → On the Jewish Question but the one on this page now reads It has been proposed below that On the Jewish Question be renamed and moved to On the Jewish Question. Do I move it back and protect it? That would mean that the current lead section was completely out of step with the title. Suggestions welcome, please try to make them consistent to Wikipedia policy, procedures etc.. Andrewa ( talk) 17:45, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
Ludvikus, if you had read the wikipedia article you would know that a manuscript of the essay Zur Judenfrage has not been transmitted. According to books.google, the book Anti-Semitism and the Jewish Question by I. Rennap from 1943 has a paragraph "Marx on the Jewish Question" on page 65. Thus it seems that the essay had been called On the Jewish Question in English language before the book of Runes appeared in 1959. Greetings, -- Schwalker ( talk) 20:09, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
If I had followed the link to the 1950 English translation of Abram Leon: The Jewish Question, I had known from footnote 3 that the essay had been published as On the Jewish Question, in an edition Selected Essays by Karl Marx (New York, 1926), p.88. Greeting, -- Schwalker ( talk) 21:11, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was no consensus. JPG-GR ( talk) 06:20, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
The title of the 1926 translation has a minuscule 't' in 'the'. This version is used in most secondary texts which refer to the English title of the essay. Thus this article's title should use a lower case 't', too. -- Schwalker ( talk) 21:35, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
On WP:RM, User:Ludvikus has written:
My comment: This seems not correct, since the translations by Stenning 1926 and by Lederer 1958 both use the lower case 't'. I can't see a "WP consensus" which would agree with a capital 'T'. Greeting -- Schwalker ( talk) 15:02, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
Hmmm... the move notice now reads It has been proposed below that On The Jewish Question be renamed and moved to On the Jewish Question, indicating that the only issue still to be resolved on the subject of the article name is whether this t should be upper or lower case. Is this true? Well done team if so! Andrewa ( talk) 15:33, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
Moved from RM:
User:VoluntarySlave, in answer to your question, almost right above, here I give you the Secondary Source you ask for:
"A WORLD WITHOUT JEWS
- Under the above heading a small book has been issued consisting mainly of articles by Karl Marx on "The Jewish Question."
These articles were first published in 1844, partly in the "German-French Yearbook" (1) and partly in "The Holy Family" (2),
and form part of the criticism by Marx and Engels of the Young Hegelian viewpoint, with particular reference to the views of Bruno Bauer, a leading exponent of this viewpoint."
That's the definitive title based on the collected works published by the reference in that External link; it's also derived from ::the Marx-Engles Institute which, I recollect, was also published by International Publishers. But as a single book, in the English speaking world we only have A World Without Jews, a compilation by Dagobert D. Runes, in 1959. That's extremely import - because that's the source of the view that Marx was an anti-Semite. -- Ludvikus ( talk) 04:58, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Here's the latest unreverted version:
I just found this interesting posting on the web:
That's from the Web. [10] (& you guys say it's obscure/irrelevant, etc.) -- Ludvikus ( talk) 00:14, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
He guys, check this source (but proceed with caution: it's from a Historical Revisionism source, Journal of Historical Review, Karl Marx: Anti-Semite by James B. Whisker): [11]:
To clarify the issues on this clutter page I give the following summary:
I did not "pick" the MIA page as a source. Anyway, it is irrelevant which sources I have picked, since this article is about the essay by Marx, and has to adjust to the spelling used by the most relevant scholary sources. Also it is irrelevant whether me or some other Wikipedian understands or appreciates the meaning of an upper case 'T', since we are obliged to follow the neutral point of view policy. Greeting, -- Schwalker ( talk) 07:31, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Part of a series on |
Marxism |
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So where does the work belong on the {{Marxism}} Template? -- Ludvikus ( talk) 02:07, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Here it is: [18]: it is a book ( Library of Congress):
Here's the online library card catalog listing of Hebrew Union College – Jewish Institute of Religion
Let's discuss here the difference regarding the 1959 text. It has been shown above that A World Without Jews is not at all an obscure worrk, contrary to the WP:Original research view of one WP editor.-- Ludvikus ( talk) 18:24, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Since the current one, single, editor persists in reverting all my work, and wishing to avoid an edit War, I'll simply archive here what I think is a better opening than what we have at the moment, and let others do with it as they see fit (-- Ludvikus ( talk) 20:12, 5 May 2008 (UTC)):
According to Andrew Valls's "Race and Racism in Modern Philosophy" (p. 242): "It is particularly in the early writings that commentators find traces of an anti-Semitism that some of them diagnose as Jewish self-hatred. The primary text is "On the Jewish Question," which first appeared in English under the title "World without Jews."
Julius Carlebach in "Karl Marx and the Radical Critique of Judaism" (p.447) when talking about "A World without Jews" says: "One of the best known but least valuable editions of Marx's essays, which are represented as purely anti-semitic. The presentation is less than scholarly, part of Marx's passages from the Holy Family being added to the essays but not identified, and the editor's comment are highly polemical. As a translation, it is, however, accurate."
So according to these two sources "World Without Jews" is first and one of the best known translations of this work.
-- Vision Thing -- 16:25, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
Runes is known for his Dictionary of Philosophy (1942) which he edited. The following distinguished authorities participated in the project (Initials/Names): A.C. ---- Alonzo Church A.C.B. ---- A. Cornelius Benjamin A.C.E. ---- A. C. Ewing A.C.P. ---- A. C. Pegis A.G.A.B. ---- Albert G. A. Balz A.J.B. ---- Archie J. Bahm B.A.G.F. ---- B. A. G. Fuller C.A.B. ---- Charles A. Baylis C.A.H. ---- Charles A. Hart C.G.H. ---- Carl G. Hempel C.J.D. ---- C. J. Ducasse C.K.D. ---- C. K. Davenport D.C. ---- Dorion Cairns E.A.M. ---- Ernest A. Moody E.C. ---- Emmanuel Chapman E.F. ---- Erich Frank E.H. ---- Eugene Holmes E.S.B. ---- Edgar Sheffield Brightman F.L.W. ---- Frederick L. Will F.M.G. ---- Felix M. Gatz F.K. ---- Fritz Kunz F.S.C.N. ---- F. S. C. Northrop G.B. ---- George Boas G.R.M. ---- Glenn R. Morrow G.W.C. ---- G. Watts Cunningham H.G. ---- Hunter Guthrie H.Go. ---- Heinrich Gomperz H.H. ---- Herman Hausheer H.L.G. ---- H. L. Gordon I.J. ---- Iredell Jenkins J.E.B. ---- John Edward Bentley J.J.R. ---- J. J. Rolbiecki J.K.F. ---- James K. Feibleman J.M. ---- Joseph Maier J.A.F. ---- Jose A. Franquiz J.M.S. ---- J. MacPherson Somerville J.R.W. ---- Julius R. Weinberg K.F.L. ---- Kurt F. Leidecker K.G. ---- Katharine Gilbert L.E.D. ---- Lester E. Denonn L.M.H. ---- Lewis M. Hammond L.V. ---- Lionello Venturi L.W. ---- Ledger Wood M.B. ---- Max Black M.T.K. ---- Morris T. Keeton M.B.M. ---- Marcus B. Mallett M.F. ---- Max Fishler M.W. ---- Meyer Waxmann O.F.K. ---- Otto F. Kraushaar P.A.S. ---- Paul A. Schilpp P.O.K. ---- Paul O. Kristeller P.P.W.. ---- Philip Paul Wiener P.W. ---- Paul Weiss R.A. ---- Rudolf Allers R.B.W. ---- Ralph B. Winn R.C. ---- Rudolf Carnap R.M.J. ---- Rufus M. Jones R.T.F. ---- Ralph Tyler Flewelling S.v.F. ---- Sigmar von Fersen S.S.S. ---- S. S. Stevens T.G. ---- Thomas Greenwood T.M. ---- Thomas Munro V.F. ---- Vergilius Ferm V.J.B. ---- Vernon J. Bourke V.J.M. ---- V. J. McGill W.E. ---- Walter Eckstein W.F. ---- William Frankena W.L. ---- Wilbur Long W.M.M. ---- William Marias Malisoff W.N.P ---- W. Norman Ptttenger W.S.W. ---- William S. Weedon W.T.C. ---- W. T. Chan
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This article concentrates on the second part exclusively, and in so, misses much of the point.
The point is not to 'abolish religion'! It is more in the realm of the discussion on the 'Separation of Church and State'. The second part is a take off from a small section of the first. {'...[L]ife in civil society, in which he acts as a private individual, regards other men as a means, degrades himself into a means, and becomes the plaything of alien powers.'} In simplified terms, it is about the de-institutionalization of religion, religion on a 'human basis'.
In the perfect democracy, the religious and theological consciousness itself is in its own eyes the more religious and the more theological because it is apparently without political significance... Christianity attains, here, the _practical_ expression of its universal-religious significance in that the most diverse world outlooks are grouped alongside one another in the form of Christianity and still more because it does not require other people to profess Christianity, but only religion in general, any kind of religion. The religious consciousness revels in the wealth of religious contradictions and religious diversity.
The duality of' ...Jew and citizen, Protestant and citizen, religious man and citizen'... which 'is political emancipation itself' 'This secular conflict, to which the Jewish question ultimately reduces itself, [is] the relation between the political state and its preconditions, whether these are material elements, such as private property, etc., or spiritual elements, such as culture or religion, the conflict between the general interest and private interest, the schism between the political state and civil society... '
'...[Giving] it even externally the form of a purely individual affair. It has been thrust among the multitude of private interests and ejected from the community as such. But one should be under no illusion about the limits of political emancipation. The division of the human being into a _public_ man and a _private_ man, the displacement of religion from the state into civil society, this is not a stage of political emancipation but its completion; this emancipation, therefore, neither abolished the real religiousness of man, nor strives to do so.'
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Last edited at 10:32, 10 March 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 21:50, 3 May 2016 (UTC)