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I have made some improvements to the "Jaredite origins" section. It is important to point out that mainstream American History and Literature scholars classify the B of M in the “Mound-builder” literary genre. Theses experts do not see anything in the written work that clearly defines a Mesoamerican setting. Onondaga ( talk) 01:32, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
I fixed the " Mound Builder" link. Thanks. Onondaga ( talk) 17:40, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
Perhaps it should be mentioned that a lot of the representations are in monochrome. The indigenous inhabitants of this part of the world tend to have flattened noses, and slightly Oriental eyes, even today. DNA testing's probably the answer here.-- MacRùsgail ( talk) 16:36, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
I have discussed this with people over the years as an ex art teacher and I am surprised no one has addressed the fact that these are carvings - which dictates some aspects of how the stones look. As such they are 'subtractive' works, meaning that you remove stone in order to create the image. If you take a large stone formation as a starting point and want to create a face you would need to carve into the stone to 'reveal' the form... Now the significant thing about the Olmec stones is the 'flattened nose' that is attributed to african facial features, which if you were carving an image for someone with a long nose would mean considerably more carving in order to remove more stone, as you cannot glue the nose on, it must be no longer than the stone's original surface. If the carver of the stone wanted to create a representation of a face, possibly even a likeness to a particular individual, it is not actually necessary to carve so deep, even if the face you want to represent has a longer nose (as more probably would have been the case). If one looks at examples of bass relief carvings they rarely have a full '3D' likeness but instead rely on the play of light over the surface to suggest highlights and shadows which are strong enough to create the feeling of depth in the viewers mind. I would argue that these carvings therefore work with both of these elements - specifically that they only carved enough to create an image which, in appropriate lighting, presented a likeness when viewed from the front. It was not intended to be 'seen' from all angles as an accurate representation of the face, merely that the natural lighting would create the likeness... Viewed from the side these faces are practically flat, following the form of the stone. So the perception that this feature of 'flat noses' appears 'african' is probably a modern error on our part in interpreting the work. Furthermore the idea of creating perfect likenesses of individuals is a relatively modern phenomenon in art around the world. Portrayals of historic and legendary characters in many cultures have involved a few realistic representations (Egyptian art for example, contains a few sculptures that are quite 'naturalistic'), but for the most part many cultures have more abstract interpretations of the human form - this could be more true if one consider that the pieces may not represent humans but gods/spirits perhaps. There is no reason to believe that the Olmec stones were attempting to create a perfect 'racial' likeness to a particular group of people. They do have in common a stylised facial form, which under the limitations of stone carving outlined above, seem to have created a particular common form which to modern eyes appears 'african' (although presumably west african rather than Eritrean for example). We cannot presume that this stylisation represents an actual intended likeness to individual humans. Now i applaud the wikipedia community for maintaining quality and objectivity, so I do not expect to see my words here reproduced in the article as I cannot cite any sources etc, as this is not a field where I have any expertise beyond my education and experience in art. But I would would ask that this is kept in the 'talk' section as a seed of thought/inquiry for others. i urge anyone working on this subject or maintaining the content of this page to look into this aspect of the Olmec stones further - as currently the page, like the subject itself, is awash with fantasist nonsense. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.11.248.238 ( talk) 11:23, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 09:37, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
Not sure how to report Taylorhealey8 ( talk) 05:28, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Olmec alternative origin speculations article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1, 2, 3 |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I have made some improvements to the "Jaredite origins" section. It is important to point out that mainstream American History and Literature scholars classify the B of M in the “Mound-builder” literary genre. Theses experts do not see anything in the written work that clearly defines a Mesoamerican setting. Onondaga ( talk) 01:32, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
I fixed the " Mound Builder" link. Thanks. Onondaga ( talk) 17:40, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
Perhaps it should be mentioned that a lot of the representations are in monochrome. The indigenous inhabitants of this part of the world tend to have flattened noses, and slightly Oriental eyes, even today. DNA testing's probably the answer here.-- MacRùsgail ( talk) 16:36, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
I have discussed this with people over the years as an ex art teacher and I am surprised no one has addressed the fact that these are carvings - which dictates some aspects of how the stones look. As such they are 'subtractive' works, meaning that you remove stone in order to create the image. If you take a large stone formation as a starting point and want to create a face you would need to carve into the stone to 'reveal' the form... Now the significant thing about the Olmec stones is the 'flattened nose' that is attributed to african facial features, which if you were carving an image for someone with a long nose would mean considerably more carving in order to remove more stone, as you cannot glue the nose on, it must be no longer than the stone's original surface. If the carver of the stone wanted to create a representation of a face, possibly even a likeness to a particular individual, it is not actually necessary to carve so deep, even if the face you want to represent has a longer nose (as more probably would have been the case). If one looks at examples of bass relief carvings they rarely have a full '3D' likeness but instead rely on the play of light over the surface to suggest highlights and shadows which are strong enough to create the feeling of depth in the viewers mind. I would argue that these carvings therefore work with both of these elements - specifically that they only carved enough to create an image which, in appropriate lighting, presented a likeness when viewed from the front. It was not intended to be 'seen' from all angles as an accurate representation of the face, merely that the natural lighting would create the likeness... Viewed from the side these faces are practically flat, following the form of the stone. So the perception that this feature of 'flat noses' appears 'african' is probably a modern error on our part in interpreting the work. Furthermore the idea of creating perfect likenesses of individuals is a relatively modern phenomenon in art around the world. Portrayals of historic and legendary characters in many cultures have involved a few realistic representations (Egyptian art for example, contains a few sculptures that are quite 'naturalistic'), but for the most part many cultures have more abstract interpretations of the human form - this could be more true if one consider that the pieces may not represent humans but gods/spirits perhaps. There is no reason to believe that the Olmec stones were attempting to create a perfect 'racial' likeness to a particular group of people. They do have in common a stylised facial form, which under the limitations of stone carving outlined above, seem to have created a particular common form which to modern eyes appears 'african' (although presumably west african rather than Eritrean for example). We cannot presume that this stylisation represents an actual intended likeness to individual humans. Now i applaud the wikipedia community for maintaining quality and objectivity, so I do not expect to see my words here reproduced in the article as I cannot cite any sources etc, as this is not a field where I have any expertise beyond my education and experience in art. But I would would ask that this is kept in the 'talk' section as a seed of thought/inquiry for others. i urge anyone working on this subject or maintaining the content of this page to look into this aspect of the Olmec stones further - as currently the page, like the subject itself, is awash with fantasist nonsense. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.11.248.238 ( talk) 11:23, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to one external link on
Olmec alternative origin speculations. Please take a moment to review
my edit. You may add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it, if I keep adding bad data, but formatting bugs should be reported instead. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether, but should be used as a last resort. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 09:37, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
Not sure how to report Taylorhealey8 ( talk) 05:28, 20 March 2024 (UTC)