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![]() | On 27 August 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved from Oleg Sentsov to Oleh Sentsov. The result of the discussion was moved. |
![]() | This discussion was listed at Wikipedia:Move review on 23 November 2016. The result of the move review was Overturn to no consensus.. |
The result of the move request was: Moved. There is consensus below to use "Oleh" as the subject's given name in the article and title. ( page mover non-admin) Paine u/ c 02:03, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
Oleg Sentsov → Oleh Sentsov – According to ukrainian rules Palu ( talk) 11:44, 21 October 2016 (UTC) --Relisting. Andrewa ( talk) 19:46, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
1) For those who may not be aware of it, the Russian language has no letter "H/h" and the Ukrainian language has no letter "G/g". The same letter, "Г/г" is pronounced as "G/g" in Russian and as "H/h" in Ukrainian.
2) During the Soviet era, only Ukrainian diaspora publications used the Ukrainian transliteration of Ukrainian names, while virtually all reliable sources in English used the "official" Russian transliteration of Ukrainian names — a practice which continues to this day and extends to all the major English-language newspapers as well as proclamations from key sources, such as the European Union, European Film Academy or Amnesty International.
3) Even the announcement from Ukraine's own foreign ministry uses the Soviet-era "Oleg", rather than "Oleh". It should be noted, however, that the Ukrainian foreign ministry's Russian transliteration (of Ukrainian names into English) extends to all Ukrainian names, not simply "Oleh", thus making
WP:UKRAINIANNAMES completely irrelevant if all these previously-mentioned sources were to be submitted as prime examples of Ukrainian name transliteration.
4) However, notable examples of a turnaround in this grandfathered form of Russian transliteration are starting to appear. In its English-language reporting, the
Interfax-Ukraine News Agency, a Kiev-based subsidiary of the Russian news group Interfax Information Services, has referenced the filmmaker
as Oleh Sentsov. Even more significantly, a press statement from the
U.S. Department of State
uses the Ukrainian transliteration for both Oleh Sentsov and co-defendant Oleksandr (not the Russian form "Aleksandr") Kolchenko.
5) It is also important to note that, in addition to the article in English Wikipedia, an entry for Oleh Sentsov appears in 14 other Wikipedias, all of which, including the
Russian Wikipedia describe him, in their respective lead sentences, as Ukrainian, not Russian, therefore confirming the applicability of
WP:UKRAINIANNAMES. Among the 15 Wikipedias, 10 use the Latin alphabet. Four of those (English, Dutch, Occitan and Swedish) use "Oleg Sentsov", three (Spanish, French, Finnish) use "Oleh Sentsov" and three (German, Polish, Czech) use "Oleh" in transliterating both the given name and the surname — "Oleh Senzow", "Ołeh Sencow", "Oleh Sencov".
6) It should also be noted that, in the matter of all Ukrainian names, but especially in this particular instance, simply having "Oleh Setsov" redirect to the main title header "Oleg Sentsov" is, at best, insufficient and, at worst, insupportable and unacceptable. It is not simply a matter of the guidelines at
WP:UKRAINIANNAMES or national linguistic pride, as in case of the lengthy discussions whether to use Akerman or Åkerman for a show business celebrity at
Talk:Malin Åkerman#Åkerman or whether to use Monica or Mónica for a sports celebrity at
Talk:Monica Puig#Requested move September 12, 2016.
7) The key consideration here is a political prisoner's national identity on which rests his life in the balance. As "Oleg", he is a Russian Ukrainian or alternatively, a Ukrainian Russian, in both instances, putatively subject to the laws of Russia. As "Oleh", however, he is a Ukrainian, winner of three national awards (
Shevchenko National Prize as well as
Order For Courage [August 23, 2014 and September 24, 2015]) honoring those who have contributed to Ukrainian culture, Ukrainian nation and Ukrainian people. The stakes under consideration are high and
WP:RELIABLE SOURCES should be considered from every standpoint and historical consideration of transliteration.
—Roman Spinner
(talk)(contribs)
03:34, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
Evidence? Apologies to those who feel they have given it above. Andrewa ( talk) 19:53, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
Evidence? Again, apologies to those who feel it has been given. Andrewa ( talk) 19:53, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
This is a new issue raised above, and probably timely as it is currently under discussion at Wikipedia talk:No original research#The more general question. Andrewa ( talk) 19:53, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
1) I should explain that, after having posted my comment [above, 01:36, 2 March 2017 (UTC)], I realized that the Department of State link, which I copied from my comment in the earlier discussion [03:34, 31 October 2016 (UTC)], was no longer active. As pointed out by Andrewa, instead of posting an updated comment which would have contained the active link, I revised the link by editing my original comment where I also appended three additional Department of State links which likewise indicate the name as "Oleh Sentsov". My own words within the revised comment remained unchanged, but the revision and addition of the links, especially after the comment had received a response was violative of the guidelines, for which I apologize.
2) As for the other issues raised in the discussion, IMO, other-language Wikipedias are, indeed, very relevant, especially in regard to topics originating outside the English-speaking world. As in one of the previous name dispute discussions — Talk:Carl Jung#Requested move 14 November 2016 — the contention (which did not gain majority acceptance) was that in view of the name Carl Gustav Jung being the main title header in 67 Wikipedias while the name Carl Jung was the header in only 4, the form "Carl Gustav Jung" had sufficient supportive evidence to also serve as the main header for English Wikipedia's entry.
3) Regarding relevance, however, one key aspect which was not relevant to the Jung naming discussion, but becomes of crucial importance in this exchange of views, is transliteration. There may be linguistic differences as to transliteration of the surname "Сенцов" — in English, it is agreed to be "Sentsov" but, for example, in German it is "Senzow", in Polish it is "Sencow" and in Czech it is "Sencov". There is no disagreement in these three, however, as to the use of "h", rather than "g" in the given name, a form also followed in the Finnish, French and Spanish Wikipedias. It needs to be noted, of course, that three other Wikipedias which use the Latin alphabet (Dutch, Occitan and Swedish) indicate the given name as "Oleg".
4) Ultimately, however, unless we decide to believe that the United States Department of State's Ukrainian-language translators have been, in the past few years, propagandistically mis-transliterating the Ukrainian name "Oleh" from its proper Russian form "Oleg" to the Ukrainian propaganda form "Oleh", then the Department of State form (as well as the Interfax use of "Oleh") should be given the full benefit of being a reliable source.
5) In the same manner that, in the English-speaking world, Peking became transliterated as Beijing, Calcutta as Kolkata or Bombay as Mumbai [transliterations which have not been accepted elsewhere in the world, including India, itself], Russian transliteration of Ukrainian names and places has been disseminated through Russian-based foreign language media and has been absorbed into English-language culture. Such common Ukrainian names as "Oleh", "Ihor", "Bohdan", "Halina" or "Olha" are frequently transliterated into their Russian forms, "Oleg", "Igor", "Bogdan", "Galina" and "Olga".
6) As has been pointed out in the previous discussion, media outlets and even organizations such as Amnesty International use names in the form presented to them by official outlets, including announcements issued by the Ukrainian government, itself. Twenty-six years after modern-day Ukrainian independence, the Ukrainian government's English-language issuances are still in the hands of those whose training in transliteration comes from the old Russian-dominated system. Wikipedia, however, has its own NPOV linguistic guidelines, particularly, in this case, WP:UKRAINIANNAMES and is not obligated to follow Russian transliteration of Ukrainian. If the documentary film is titled, "The Trial: The State of Russia vs Oleg Sentsov", then, of course we must quote the exact form of the title.
7) In all other instances, however, we should follow common sense. Even Russian Wikipedia describes Oleh Sentsov as a "Ukrainian film director, screenwriter and writer". Nowhere is he described as "Russian" and, since the Ukrainian alphabet has no equivalent letter to "G", Sentsov's given name should be rendered as "Oleh" in the same manner as the names of scores of other Ukrainians named "Oleh" whose biographical articles appear in English Wikipedia. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 22:28, 2 March 2017 (UTC)
After some thought, I've decided to post a detailed reply to this 5kB post above, in two subheadings #Irrelevant stuff and #Relevant stuff below. Andrewa ( talk) 05:38, 3 March 2017 (UTC)
(Irrelevant, that is, in terms of the topic subheading Bias of sources.)
1) Could be summarised as sorry.
2) and 3) appeal to other-language Wikipedias. See WT:AT#Article names in other Wikipedias, from which I have pinged Roman Spinner twice now, and they are of course welcome to put their views there but have yet to do so. I will now raise it on their user talk page, as this at least borders on a behavioural issue.
4) is relevant, see below!
5) and 6) appear to support the claim that Oleg is the common name, and explain why this is so. The reasons don't matter, if it's English we use it.
7) Appeals to common sense. Common sense in Wikipedia is expressed by consensus. To me there seems no chance of a policy-based consensus to move. I could be wrong. Andrewa ( talk) 05:45, 3 March 2017 (UTC)
4) Ultimately, however, unless we decide to believe that the United States Department of State's Ukrainian-language translators have been, in the past few years, propagandistically mis-transliterating the Ukrainian name "Oleh" from its proper Russian form "Oleg" to the Ukrainian propaganda form "Oleh", then the Department of State form (as well as the Interfax use of "Oleh") should be given the full benefit of being a reliable source. The question is not of their competence, but of their objectivity. Do you really believe that they are not aware of the political consequences of their choices in these matters, and/or unaffected by these considerations? Andrewa ( talk) 05:38, 3 March 2017 (UTC)
1) As has already been established, Russian has no letter "h" and Ukrainian has no letter "g", Russians who carry that name are transliterated as "Oleg" and Ukrainians as "Oleh". Analogous to its guidelines for a number of languages, Wikipedia has WP:UKRAINIANNAMES and WP:Romanization of Ukrainian for the purpose of making such distinctions.
2) There are scores of Wikipedia biographical entries for Russians named Oleg and Ukrainians named Oleh. Due to the large minority of Russians living in Ukraine, multiplicity of mixed marriages between Russians and Ukrainians as well as continued domination of Russian language and Russian cultural forms, a considerable number of Ukrainians have been Russified and use Russian pronunciation and linguistic forms.
2) At the heart of this discussion is, of course, Oleh Sentsov himself. A native-born Ukrainian citizen, certified as such by the Ukrainian government, he has received three of Ukraine's highest awards for the advancement of Ukrainian culture, language and nationhood — the Shevchenko National Prize and [twice] the Order For Courage. A political prisoner, recognized as such by Amnesty International, he has been seized by Russia on internationally-recognized Ukrainian territory and imprisoned in Russia, far from Ukraine.
3) Questions have been raised, above, ascribing propagandistic motives to the U.S. Department of State's
use of the name "Oleh" in their references to Sentsov ("Are you really suggesting that the US Department of State is a neutral source? Seriously?"…. "The question is not of their competence, but of their objectivity. Do you really believe that they are not aware of the political consequences of their choices in these matters, and/or unaffected by these considerations?").
Such questions may be countered with other questions — How else could his name have been transliterated? Since the Ukrainian language has no letter "g", but only the letter "h", should the Department of State have nonetheless rendered the given name of a Ukrainian political prisoner held in Russia using that name's Russian "g" form?
4) Not all arguments have opposing sides. In the same manner as one would not yield equal time to proponents of apartheid or genocide, so should one not consider as propaganda the rendering of a political prisoner's given name in the proper transliteration of his native country's language.
5) Leaving further details regarding Sentsov for the next round, one additional key point needs to be raised per its mention in the header for this section — Wikipedia house style. A visit to thematically-unrelated, but otherwise instructive and revealing discussion at Talk:J. J. Watt#Requested move 2 December 2016 and the subsequent move review overturning the original decision, establishes the predominance of Wikipedia's house style over WP:RELIABLESOURCES. Thus, it would be fully within Wikipedia:Neutral point of view guidelines to indicate that the transliteration of Oleh Sentsov's given name is indicated according to Wikipedia's house style, per WP:UKRAINIANNAMES, which takes precedence over the transliteration inconsistencies elsewhere. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 13:17, 4 March 2017 (UTC)
As indicated in the above-templated banner, directly below section header "Requested move 21 October 2016", a subsequent move review discussion resulted in returning the main title header from Oleh Sentsov to its initial form, Oleg Sentsov. For the record, when this matter comes up again for argumentation in 2017, here is the link for that move review discussion and, also, here is the link to the discussion contesting the deletion of the redirect "Oleg Sentsov" which was preventing the move of "Oleh Sentsov" back to "Oleg Sentsov". —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 21:11, 27 December 2016 (UTC)
https://www.screendaily.com/news/imprisoned-ukrainian-filmmaker-oleg-sentsov-12-days-into-hunger-strike/5129670.article Xx236 ( talk) 12:17, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
Press statement of the European Court of Human Rights 25.07.2018
"(title) Court decides on medical care interim measure for Oleg Sentsov, calls on him to end hunger strike
The European Court of Human Rights has today decided on an interim measure in the case of imprisoned film director Oleg Sentsov, calling on Russia to provide him with appropriate treatment in an institutionalised medical setting. The Court also invited Mr Sentsov to end his hunger strike and to accept any life-saving treatment offered. …"---- Bancki ( talk) 12:44, 6 September 2018 (UTC)
There really isn't much information in the article regarding the hunger strike, which I can't help but to find a bit peculiar given that it went on for so long? I in any case therefore did some digging for more information on the topic, and among others found the following articles which could perhaps be used;
And according to the following article from September 11, he had by the writing moment reached the 120th day of his hunger strike, which I believe should be mentioned in the article as it gives the older number of days, 87, which, at least at the time of September 11, was obviously no longer the correct number of days: https://themoscowtimes.com/news/crimean-filmmaker-issues-will-on-120th-day-of-hunger-strike-cousin-says-62847
Thank you. Okama-San ( talk) 21:19, 27 September 2018 (UTC)
FYI today I updated [7] this article's text: I changed Oleg Sentsov -> Oleh Sentsov. The reason for this is becaue the correct way of writing this filmmaker's name is Oleh Sentsov not Oleg Sentsov. This is because the correct transliteration of Ukrainian name Олег in English is Oleh, while the correct transliteration of Russian name Олег in English is Oleg, but this filmmaker's name is Ukrainian not Russian, hence Oleh should be used in English. See now the journalist in this Deadline article specifically calls that out saying "Ukrainian filmmaker Oleh (not Oleg) Sentsov is back..." (i.e. Deadline's journalist specifically calls out that's it's Oleh not Oleg, see https://deadline.com/2021/08/oleh-sentsov-getting-life-back-after-release-from-russian-prison-making-wild-90s-ukraine-story-rhino-venice-1234823199/ ).
So in summary the article's text has been corrected from the incorrect Oleg Sentsov to the correct Oleh Sentsov, but that's just the text of the article; obviously the article name itself should be moved to correct title Oleh Sentsov at some point in the future to match the aritcle name as well.-- 73.8.106.93 ( talk) 00:09, 28 August 2021 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. ( closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal ( talk) 19:10, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
Oleg Sentsov → Oleh Sentsov – He uses 'Oleh', we should respect this [10], [11] 16:21, 27 August 2023 (UTC)— blindlynx 16:21, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | This article has previously been nominated to be moved.
Discussions:
|
![]() | On 27 August 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved from Oleg Sentsov to Oleh Sentsov. The result of the discussion was moved. |
![]() | This discussion was listed at Wikipedia:Move review on 23 November 2016. The result of the move review was Overturn to no consensus.. |
The result of the move request was: Moved. There is consensus below to use "Oleh" as the subject's given name in the article and title. ( page mover non-admin) Paine u/ c 02:03, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
Oleg Sentsov → Oleh Sentsov – According to ukrainian rules Palu ( talk) 11:44, 21 October 2016 (UTC) --Relisting. Andrewa ( talk) 19:46, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
1) For those who may not be aware of it, the Russian language has no letter "H/h" and the Ukrainian language has no letter "G/g". The same letter, "Г/г" is pronounced as "G/g" in Russian and as "H/h" in Ukrainian.
2) During the Soviet era, only Ukrainian diaspora publications used the Ukrainian transliteration of Ukrainian names, while virtually all reliable sources in English used the "official" Russian transliteration of Ukrainian names — a practice which continues to this day and extends to all the major English-language newspapers as well as proclamations from key sources, such as the European Union, European Film Academy or Amnesty International.
3) Even the announcement from Ukraine's own foreign ministry uses the Soviet-era "Oleg", rather than "Oleh". It should be noted, however, that the Ukrainian foreign ministry's Russian transliteration (of Ukrainian names into English) extends to all Ukrainian names, not simply "Oleh", thus making
WP:UKRAINIANNAMES completely irrelevant if all these previously-mentioned sources were to be submitted as prime examples of Ukrainian name transliteration.
4) However, notable examples of a turnaround in this grandfathered form of Russian transliteration are starting to appear. In its English-language reporting, the
Interfax-Ukraine News Agency, a Kiev-based subsidiary of the Russian news group Interfax Information Services, has referenced the filmmaker
as Oleh Sentsov. Even more significantly, a press statement from the
U.S. Department of State
uses the Ukrainian transliteration for both Oleh Sentsov and co-defendant Oleksandr (not the Russian form "Aleksandr") Kolchenko.
5) It is also important to note that, in addition to the article in English Wikipedia, an entry for Oleh Sentsov appears in 14 other Wikipedias, all of which, including the
Russian Wikipedia describe him, in their respective lead sentences, as Ukrainian, not Russian, therefore confirming the applicability of
WP:UKRAINIANNAMES. Among the 15 Wikipedias, 10 use the Latin alphabet. Four of those (English, Dutch, Occitan and Swedish) use "Oleg Sentsov", three (Spanish, French, Finnish) use "Oleh Sentsov" and three (German, Polish, Czech) use "Oleh" in transliterating both the given name and the surname — "Oleh Senzow", "Ołeh Sencow", "Oleh Sencov".
6) It should also be noted that, in the matter of all Ukrainian names, but especially in this particular instance, simply having "Oleh Setsov" redirect to the main title header "Oleg Sentsov" is, at best, insufficient and, at worst, insupportable and unacceptable. It is not simply a matter of the guidelines at
WP:UKRAINIANNAMES or national linguistic pride, as in case of the lengthy discussions whether to use Akerman or Åkerman for a show business celebrity at
Talk:Malin Åkerman#Åkerman or whether to use Monica or Mónica for a sports celebrity at
Talk:Monica Puig#Requested move September 12, 2016.
7) The key consideration here is a political prisoner's national identity on which rests his life in the balance. As "Oleg", he is a Russian Ukrainian or alternatively, a Ukrainian Russian, in both instances, putatively subject to the laws of Russia. As "Oleh", however, he is a Ukrainian, winner of three national awards (
Shevchenko National Prize as well as
Order For Courage [August 23, 2014 and September 24, 2015]) honoring those who have contributed to Ukrainian culture, Ukrainian nation and Ukrainian people. The stakes under consideration are high and
WP:RELIABLE SOURCES should be considered from every standpoint and historical consideration of transliteration.
—Roman Spinner
(talk)(contribs)
03:34, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
Evidence? Apologies to those who feel they have given it above. Andrewa ( talk) 19:53, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
Evidence? Again, apologies to those who feel it has been given. Andrewa ( talk) 19:53, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
This is a new issue raised above, and probably timely as it is currently under discussion at Wikipedia talk:No original research#The more general question. Andrewa ( talk) 19:53, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
1) I should explain that, after having posted my comment [above, 01:36, 2 March 2017 (UTC)], I realized that the Department of State link, which I copied from my comment in the earlier discussion [03:34, 31 October 2016 (UTC)], was no longer active. As pointed out by Andrewa, instead of posting an updated comment which would have contained the active link, I revised the link by editing my original comment where I also appended three additional Department of State links which likewise indicate the name as "Oleh Sentsov". My own words within the revised comment remained unchanged, but the revision and addition of the links, especially after the comment had received a response was violative of the guidelines, for which I apologize.
2) As for the other issues raised in the discussion, IMO, other-language Wikipedias are, indeed, very relevant, especially in regard to topics originating outside the English-speaking world. As in one of the previous name dispute discussions — Talk:Carl Jung#Requested move 14 November 2016 — the contention (which did not gain majority acceptance) was that in view of the name Carl Gustav Jung being the main title header in 67 Wikipedias while the name Carl Jung was the header in only 4, the form "Carl Gustav Jung" had sufficient supportive evidence to also serve as the main header for English Wikipedia's entry.
3) Regarding relevance, however, one key aspect which was not relevant to the Jung naming discussion, but becomes of crucial importance in this exchange of views, is transliteration. There may be linguistic differences as to transliteration of the surname "Сенцов" — in English, it is agreed to be "Sentsov" but, for example, in German it is "Senzow", in Polish it is "Sencow" and in Czech it is "Sencov". There is no disagreement in these three, however, as to the use of "h", rather than "g" in the given name, a form also followed in the Finnish, French and Spanish Wikipedias. It needs to be noted, of course, that three other Wikipedias which use the Latin alphabet (Dutch, Occitan and Swedish) indicate the given name as "Oleg".
4) Ultimately, however, unless we decide to believe that the United States Department of State's Ukrainian-language translators have been, in the past few years, propagandistically mis-transliterating the Ukrainian name "Oleh" from its proper Russian form "Oleg" to the Ukrainian propaganda form "Oleh", then the Department of State form (as well as the Interfax use of "Oleh") should be given the full benefit of being a reliable source.
5) In the same manner that, in the English-speaking world, Peking became transliterated as Beijing, Calcutta as Kolkata or Bombay as Mumbai [transliterations which have not been accepted elsewhere in the world, including India, itself], Russian transliteration of Ukrainian names and places has been disseminated through Russian-based foreign language media and has been absorbed into English-language culture. Such common Ukrainian names as "Oleh", "Ihor", "Bohdan", "Halina" or "Olha" are frequently transliterated into their Russian forms, "Oleg", "Igor", "Bogdan", "Galina" and "Olga".
6) As has been pointed out in the previous discussion, media outlets and even organizations such as Amnesty International use names in the form presented to them by official outlets, including announcements issued by the Ukrainian government, itself. Twenty-six years after modern-day Ukrainian independence, the Ukrainian government's English-language issuances are still in the hands of those whose training in transliteration comes from the old Russian-dominated system. Wikipedia, however, has its own NPOV linguistic guidelines, particularly, in this case, WP:UKRAINIANNAMES and is not obligated to follow Russian transliteration of Ukrainian. If the documentary film is titled, "The Trial: The State of Russia vs Oleg Sentsov", then, of course we must quote the exact form of the title.
7) In all other instances, however, we should follow common sense. Even Russian Wikipedia describes Oleh Sentsov as a "Ukrainian film director, screenwriter and writer". Nowhere is he described as "Russian" and, since the Ukrainian alphabet has no equivalent letter to "G", Sentsov's given name should be rendered as "Oleh" in the same manner as the names of scores of other Ukrainians named "Oleh" whose biographical articles appear in English Wikipedia. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 22:28, 2 March 2017 (UTC)
After some thought, I've decided to post a detailed reply to this 5kB post above, in two subheadings #Irrelevant stuff and #Relevant stuff below. Andrewa ( talk) 05:38, 3 March 2017 (UTC)
(Irrelevant, that is, in terms of the topic subheading Bias of sources.)
1) Could be summarised as sorry.
2) and 3) appeal to other-language Wikipedias. See WT:AT#Article names in other Wikipedias, from which I have pinged Roman Spinner twice now, and they are of course welcome to put their views there but have yet to do so. I will now raise it on their user talk page, as this at least borders on a behavioural issue.
4) is relevant, see below!
5) and 6) appear to support the claim that Oleg is the common name, and explain why this is so. The reasons don't matter, if it's English we use it.
7) Appeals to common sense. Common sense in Wikipedia is expressed by consensus. To me there seems no chance of a policy-based consensus to move. I could be wrong. Andrewa ( talk) 05:45, 3 March 2017 (UTC)
4) Ultimately, however, unless we decide to believe that the United States Department of State's Ukrainian-language translators have been, in the past few years, propagandistically mis-transliterating the Ukrainian name "Oleh" from its proper Russian form "Oleg" to the Ukrainian propaganda form "Oleh", then the Department of State form (as well as the Interfax use of "Oleh") should be given the full benefit of being a reliable source. The question is not of their competence, but of their objectivity. Do you really believe that they are not aware of the political consequences of their choices in these matters, and/or unaffected by these considerations? Andrewa ( talk) 05:38, 3 March 2017 (UTC)
1) As has already been established, Russian has no letter "h" and Ukrainian has no letter "g", Russians who carry that name are transliterated as "Oleg" and Ukrainians as "Oleh". Analogous to its guidelines for a number of languages, Wikipedia has WP:UKRAINIANNAMES and WP:Romanization of Ukrainian for the purpose of making such distinctions.
2) There are scores of Wikipedia biographical entries for Russians named Oleg and Ukrainians named Oleh. Due to the large minority of Russians living in Ukraine, multiplicity of mixed marriages between Russians and Ukrainians as well as continued domination of Russian language and Russian cultural forms, a considerable number of Ukrainians have been Russified and use Russian pronunciation and linguistic forms.
2) At the heart of this discussion is, of course, Oleh Sentsov himself. A native-born Ukrainian citizen, certified as such by the Ukrainian government, he has received three of Ukraine's highest awards for the advancement of Ukrainian culture, language and nationhood — the Shevchenko National Prize and [twice] the Order For Courage. A political prisoner, recognized as such by Amnesty International, he has been seized by Russia on internationally-recognized Ukrainian territory and imprisoned in Russia, far from Ukraine.
3) Questions have been raised, above, ascribing propagandistic motives to the U.S. Department of State's
use of the name "Oleh" in their references to Sentsov ("Are you really suggesting that the US Department of State is a neutral source? Seriously?"…. "The question is not of their competence, but of their objectivity. Do you really believe that they are not aware of the political consequences of their choices in these matters, and/or unaffected by these considerations?").
Such questions may be countered with other questions — How else could his name have been transliterated? Since the Ukrainian language has no letter "g", but only the letter "h", should the Department of State have nonetheless rendered the given name of a Ukrainian political prisoner held in Russia using that name's Russian "g" form?
4) Not all arguments have opposing sides. In the same manner as one would not yield equal time to proponents of apartheid or genocide, so should one not consider as propaganda the rendering of a political prisoner's given name in the proper transliteration of his native country's language.
5) Leaving further details regarding Sentsov for the next round, one additional key point needs to be raised per its mention in the header for this section — Wikipedia house style. A visit to thematically-unrelated, but otherwise instructive and revealing discussion at Talk:J. J. Watt#Requested move 2 December 2016 and the subsequent move review overturning the original decision, establishes the predominance of Wikipedia's house style over WP:RELIABLESOURCES. Thus, it would be fully within Wikipedia:Neutral point of view guidelines to indicate that the transliteration of Oleh Sentsov's given name is indicated according to Wikipedia's house style, per WP:UKRAINIANNAMES, which takes precedence over the transliteration inconsistencies elsewhere. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 13:17, 4 March 2017 (UTC)
As indicated in the above-templated banner, directly below section header "Requested move 21 October 2016", a subsequent move review discussion resulted in returning the main title header from Oleh Sentsov to its initial form, Oleg Sentsov. For the record, when this matter comes up again for argumentation in 2017, here is the link for that move review discussion and, also, here is the link to the discussion contesting the deletion of the redirect "Oleg Sentsov" which was preventing the move of "Oleh Sentsov" back to "Oleg Sentsov". —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 21:11, 27 December 2016 (UTC)
https://www.screendaily.com/news/imprisoned-ukrainian-filmmaker-oleg-sentsov-12-days-into-hunger-strike/5129670.article Xx236 ( talk) 12:17, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
Press statement of the European Court of Human Rights 25.07.2018
"(title) Court decides on medical care interim measure for Oleg Sentsov, calls on him to end hunger strike
The European Court of Human Rights has today decided on an interim measure in the case of imprisoned film director Oleg Sentsov, calling on Russia to provide him with appropriate treatment in an institutionalised medical setting. The Court also invited Mr Sentsov to end his hunger strike and to accept any life-saving treatment offered. …"---- Bancki ( talk) 12:44, 6 September 2018 (UTC)
There really isn't much information in the article regarding the hunger strike, which I can't help but to find a bit peculiar given that it went on for so long? I in any case therefore did some digging for more information on the topic, and among others found the following articles which could perhaps be used;
And according to the following article from September 11, he had by the writing moment reached the 120th day of his hunger strike, which I believe should be mentioned in the article as it gives the older number of days, 87, which, at least at the time of September 11, was obviously no longer the correct number of days: https://themoscowtimes.com/news/crimean-filmmaker-issues-will-on-120th-day-of-hunger-strike-cousin-says-62847
Thank you. Okama-San ( talk) 21:19, 27 September 2018 (UTC)
FYI today I updated [7] this article's text: I changed Oleg Sentsov -> Oleh Sentsov. The reason for this is becaue the correct way of writing this filmmaker's name is Oleh Sentsov not Oleg Sentsov. This is because the correct transliteration of Ukrainian name Олег in English is Oleh, while the correct transliteration of Russian name Олег in English is Oleg, but this filmmaker's name is Ukrainian not Russian, hence Oleh should be used in English. See now the journalist in this Deadline article specifically calls that out saying "Ukrainian filmmaker Oleh (not Oleg) Sentsov is back..." (i.e. Deadline's journalist specifically calls out that's it's Oleh not Oleg, see https://deadline.com/2021/08/oleh-sentsov-getting-life-back-after-release-from-russian-prison-making-wild-90s-ukraine-story-rhino-venice-1234823199/ ).
So in summary the article's text has been corrected from the incorrect Oleg Sentsov to the correct Oleh Sentsov, but that's just the text of the article; obviously the article name itself should be moved to correct title Oleh Sentsov at some point in the future to match the aritcle name as well.-- 73.8.106.93 ( talk) 00:09, 28 August 2021 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. ( closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal ( talk) 19:10, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
Oleg Sentsov → Oleh Sentsov – He uses 'Oleh', we should respect this [10], [11] 16:21, 27 August 2023 (UTC)— blindlynx 16:21, 27 August 2023 (UTC)