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RE: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Old_time_fiddle&action=historysubmit&diff=437133419&oldid=436950441
Done
Done
of "Old time musicians bristle at confusion of their brand of music with other styles as noted above."
As an expertise-holder, I assert that the statement is true and uncontroversial but perhaps for the word "bristle". That is simply decent writing but it is not essay-like nor is it an asseriton of "personal" views. I think what you mean is that it is not in encyclopedic tone and there is a different template for that, altogther. If that deletion is supposed to be explained or commented by the {{Essay-like template, please use the template that specifically expresses the complaint, or, perhaps better yet, don't use templates.
I am surprised that it was deleted rather than {{ cited for Citation needed, or even, at most, {{Dubious...
RE: Essay-like|date=June 2011
I think the issue, if there must be an issue over that, is ((Citation needed.
It isn't really a "personal" essay, which is a way overused template concept. The template should have variants because there can be non-encyclopedic deviations which may have some qualities in common with "essay" style of writing, but are probably more like other styles which are not quite exactly what you would call essay. Maybe sometimes the issue is it is POV/inadequately sourced. That is not the same thing as "personal essay" writing and it is something of a bite on writers to template their work as "personal essay" when that is not accurate.
"personal essays... represent what you think, what you feel, about a given topic"
The issue in a lot of the articles receiving the personal-essay accusation template is not that they are representing what the writer thinks or feels, the issue is inadequate sourcing of what may be a consensus opinion amongst, say, Old Time fiddling experts. Please revise the template or use a different one or better yet simply contact article originators at their talk page without inaccurate templating.
Proposed action:
1)leave the sentence deleted OR
2) find attribution and reinstate the sentence.
3)Modify: change "bristle" to "distinguish", etc.
In any case, nothing personal. GeoBard Rap 23:32, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
There is no rationale given for deletion of references to demonstrations of homemade instruments. These were hand compiled citations. Please provide a source to replace these or restore the citation perhaps in an external links section thanks.
[1] whiskey bottle boxes, [2] and similar ad hoc materials. [3]
References
Who calls Jay Ungar an old-timey fiddler? As notable and accomplished as he is, his style is certainly a lot more violinny than, for example, Clyde Davenport or Lester McCumbers. __ Just plain Bill ( talk) 00:58, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
There probably are better teachers of OT but Jay and Mark have pedagogy down also Darol Anger. But revert it if you want. BTW you must play one bad ass Beaumont Rag if you know enough to do this edit: [1] I like your edits you are expert sorry about earlier thought there was a move to bar videographic documentation, which IMHO would be stupid. GeoBard Rap 02:44, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
These are pasted from earlier version for inspection after deletion which was performed without reference to the WP policies, which are changing, and which were not written with music and musicians in mind. If this has to be an interminable edit war, probably persons seriously interested in online collaborative encyclopedia production on the topic of music will simply migrate from WP to somewhere that wikilawyering from people with no interest or background in music will not detract from the mission of producing quality encyclopedic content.
-
-
-
corrected to
COMMENT: This is an excellent demonstration of the point that "A characteristic of Old Time Fiddle is the integration of spoken/sung vocalizations into the fiddle playing."
It is a great link and the article would be better off if it had been left unperturbed. However, the old, stale policies which were written for non-musical content will be wikilawyered to the hilt and end up draining vast amounts of time to get formal adoption of the inevitable, much-needed boilerplate spelling out the exceptions to those general policies which are appropriate for the performing arts. To minimize the inevitavble drain on my time and energy, I am going to engage that debate later rather than sooner and go ahead and re-integrate that link with contextualizing text. But these edits, based upon old, uncited guidelines, are not helpful and eventually there will have to be a general rfc or some other process if they are going to continue. GeoBard Rap 01:06, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
Alternative version. Hm. This is a priceless comparison. I know all about the various policy objections that could surface and they will need to be raised and discussed eventually. However, there is no hard rule against external links and this is not a case of "link - farming". I am going to wait around though for a better test case and not take the bait of getting into a flame war. I am a musician and a music teacher, an "expert" in the sense used in the various discussions about "expertise" being driven away from WP. And the facile removal of content, in this case I can only speculate because of some dusty old WP rules that were not written with music topics in mind, is an obstacle with little apparent benefit to the encyclopedia.
I will probably sit on this for the time being but eventually there will be a "test case" of this type of deletionism and a broader discussion. Or, I will simply find other venues and let the issue go away of its own accord. But clearly when you are talking about performance art, a different state of affairs obtains than any state of affairs that pertains to many other topics, and if there is in fact some clear, pertinent policy in support of this kind of edit, the policy is not a good one. GeoBard Rap 01:14, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
If you believe there is a WP policy which requires captions for all images. please post a link to that policy.
Your edit summary objects that the image, which is in the section entitled "Instrumentation", is a violin. That is true. A fiddle is a violin. Did you not know that? If you believe that the distinction is pertinent, please discuss it here rather than wheel warring, thanks. GeoBard Rap 01:20, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
""Yes I agree I usually put captions, time permitting. I am just headed out the door and don't have time to read any further into your message and won't because if I read it I will want to compose a reply and that will take time. But yes I agree about captions, but the remeddy is to add a caption not to delete the image. I will read the rest of your message tommorow and if it seems appropriate reply. Thanks. GeoBard Rap 03:09, 13 July 2011 (UTC)
I am of two minds about the removal of the violin image thumbnail from the "instrumentation" section. DAJF is correct in saying that it shows a modern violin. I am familiar with the history of that individual violin, and can say with certainty that the bridge top curve was the standard 42 mm "classical" radius when I took that picture. Even though there are fine tuners built into the tailpiece, it is wearing synthetic-core strings for the bottom three. I can also say with absolute certainty that its player at that time used it as both a violin and a fiddle, although not in an old-timey style.
At the moment I don't have a picture of an old-timer's fiddle handy. If someone feels strongly that the section needs an accompanying picture, I have no objection to putting that VL100 back, but I think we can do better, and am willing to wait until a more representative image of an old-timey fiddle comes along. __ Just plain Bill ( talk) 01:29, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
Benny Williams who played with Bill Monroe passed away recently and there is not a huge amount of secondary sources. I was hoping someone from this discussion might be able to help find some second party citations. GeoBard Rap 22:01, 16 July 2011 (UTC)
I hid the existing photo no one seems to like very much and added more b&w old photos to keep a unified visual. Maybe this one can be converted to b& w ??
23:46, 16 July 2011 (UTC)
If you go to edit the External Links section, you get an edit notice.
This is it:
Please prefer links which are meta-indexes or highly authoritative on account of the fact some WP editors get mad if you put too many links up- -IF YOU REMOVE ANY LINKS PLEASE PASTE THEM INTO THE TALK PAGE that way we can make sure a good resource doesn't get lost in the shuffle. We can replace the link somewhere else thanks. --
I am asking people to stick with it. Personally, I like lots of links but others won't so that is that. Geof 02:12, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
I came across these two sources:
Enjoy. -- Lo Ximiendo ( talk) 17:20, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
I'm a bit confused by this section - what is it's purpose? Wagon Wheel is not really related to old time fiddle specifically. It is co-written by Bob Dylan and Ketch Secor of Old Crow Medicine show. The tune has an old timey feel and uses a fiddle, but a "composed music in the old-time fiddle tradition" could mean something else - old time fiddle tunes (instrumental, dance oriented) that have have a verifiable composer.
Examples of this would be "Red Prairie Dawn" composed by Garry Harrison, which is played frequently at old time fiddlers conventions. Another could be "Half Past Four" which was composed by the legendary Kentucky old time fiddler Ed Haley in the early 20th century.
"Wagon Wheel" differs drastically from "Blackberry Blossom" and "Orange Blossom Special" which are instrumental fiddle tunes. Blackberry Blossom doesn't have a sole composer: /info/en/?search=Blackberry_Blossom_(tune)
What kind of information is trying to be conveyed with this section? It seems to me it should be split into differing sections: "Composed music in the tradition" which lists verifiable tunes that have a distinct composer, and "Influences on contemporary music" which can include the likes of "Wagon Wheel". Thoughts? ` Jmpilot ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 21:45, 3 April 2018 (UTC)
While running autowikibrowser through a list that contained, among other things, a lot of American folk-art articles, I came across this article. It contains a long "edit notice" in hidden comments, threatening sanctions if people remove video links from the article. I'm removing it for a number of reasons, including:
I dream of horses (Contribs) (Talk) 03:09, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
![]() | The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information. |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|
RE: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Old_time_fiddle&action=historysubmit&diff=437133419&oldid=436950441
Done
Done
of "Old time musicians bristle at confusion of their brand of music with other styles as noted above."
As an expertise-holder, I assert that the statement is true and uncontroversial but perhaps for the word "bristle". That is simply decent writing but it is not essay-like nor is it an asseriton of "personal" views. I think what you mean is that it is not in encyclopedic tone and there is a different template for that, altogther. If that deletion is supposed to be explained or commented by the {{Essay-like template, please use the template that specifically expresses the complaint, or, perhaps better yet, don't use templates.
I am surprised that it was deleted rather than {{ cited for Citation needed, or even, at most, {{Dubious...
RE: Essay-like|date=June 2011
I think the issue, if there must be an issue over that, is ((Citation needed.
It isn't really a "personal" essay, which is a way overused template concept. The template should have variants because there can be non-encyclopedic deviations which may have some qualities in common with "essay" style of writing, but are probably more like other styles which are not quite exactly what you would call essay. Maybe sometimes the issue is it is POV/inadequately sourced. That is not the same thing as "personal essay" writing and it is something of a bite on writers to template their work as "personal essay" when that is not accurate.
"personal essays... represent what you think, what you feel, about a given topic"
The issue in a lot of the articles receiving the personal-essay accusation template is not that they are representing what the writer thinks or feels, the issue is inadequate sourcing of what may be a consensus opinion amongst, say, Old Time fiddling experts. Please revise the template or use a different one or better yet simply contact article originators at their talk page without inaccurate templating.
Proposed action:
1)leave the sentence deleted OR
2) find attribution and reinstate the sentence.
3)Modify: change "bristle" to "distinguish", etc.
In any case, nothing personal. GeoBard Rap 23:32, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
There is no rationale given for deletion of references to demonstrations of homemade instruments. These were hand compiled citations. Please provide a source to replace these or restore the citation perhaps in an external links section thanks.
[1] whiskey bottle boxes, [2] and similar ad hoc materials. [3]
References
Who calls Jay Ungar an old-timey fiddler? As notable and accomplished as he is, his style is certainly a lot more violinny than, for example, Clyde Davenport or Lester McCumbers. __ Just plain Bill ( talk) 00:58, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
There probably are better teachers of OT but Jay and Mark have pedagogy down also Darol Anger. But revert it if you want. BTW you must play one bad ass Beaumont Rag if you know enough to do this edit: [1] I like your edits you are expert sorry about earlier thought there was a move to bar videographic documentation, which IMHO would be stupid. GeoBard Rap 02:44, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
These are pasted from earlier version for inspection after deletion which was performed without reference to the WP policies, which are changing, and which were not written with music and musicians in mind. If this has to be an interminable edit war, probably persons seriously interested in online collaborative encyclopedia production on the topic of music will simply migrate from WP to somewhere that wikilawyering from people with no interest or background in music will not detract from the mission of producing quality encyclopedic content.
-
-
-
corrected to
COMMENT: This is an excellent demonstration of the point that "A characteristic of Old Time Fiddle is the integration of spoken/sung vocalizations into the fiddle playing."
It is a great link and the article would be better off if it had been left unperturbed. However, the old, stale policies which were written for non-musical content will be wikilawyered to the hilt and end up draining vast amounts of time to get formal adoption of the inevitable, much-needed boilerplate spelling out the exceptions to those general policies which are appropriate for the performing arts. To minimize the inevitavble drain on my time and energy, I am going to engage that debate later rather than sooner and go ahead and re-integrate that link with contextualizing text. But these edits, based upon old, uncited guidelines, are not helpful and eventually there will have to be a general rfc or some other process if they are going to continue. GeoBard Rap 01:06, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
Alternative version. Hm. This is a priceless comparison. I know all about the various policy objections that could surface and they will need to be raised and discussed eventually. However, there is no hard rule against external links and this is not a case of "link - farming". I am going to wait around though for a better test case and not take the bait of getting into a flame war. I am a musician and a music teacher, an "expert" in the sense used in the various discussions about "expertise" being driven away from WP. And the facile removal of content, in this case I can only speculate because of some dusty old WP rules that were not written with music topics in mind, is an obstacle with little apparent benefit to the encyclopedia.
I will probably sit on this for the time being but eventually there will be a "test case" of this type of deletionism and a broader discussion. Or, I will simply find other venues and let the issue go away of its own accord. But clearly when you are talking about performance art, a different state of affairs obtains than any state of affairs that pertains to many other topics, and if there is in fact some clear, pertinent policy in support of this kind of edit, the policy is not a good one. GeoBard Rap 01:14, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
If you believe there is a WP policy which requires captions for all images. please post a link to that policy.
Your edit summary objects that the image, which is in the section entitled "Instrumentation", is a violin. That is true. A fiddle is a violin. Did you not know that? If you believe that the distinction is pertinent, please discuss it here rather than wheel warring, thanks. GeoBard Rap 01:20, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
""Yes I agree I usually put captions, time permitting. I am just headed out the door and don't have time to read any further into your message and won't because if I read it I will want to compose a reply and that will take time. But yes I agree about captions, but the remeddy is to add a caption not to delete the image. I will read the rest of your message tommorow and if it seems appropriate reply. Thanks. GeoBard Rap 03:09, 13 July 2011 (UTC)
I am of two minds about the removal of the violin image thumbnail from the "instrumentation" section. DAJF is correct in saying that it shows a modern violin. I am familiar with the history of that individual violin, and can say with certainty that the bridge top curve was the standard 42 mm "classical" radius when I took that picture. Even though there are fine tuners built into the tailpiece, it is wearing synthetic-core strings for the bottom three. I can also say with absolute certainty that its player at that time used it as both a violin and a fiddle, although not in an old-timey style.
At the moment I don't have a picture of an old-timer's fiddle handy. If someone feels strongly that the section needs an accompanying picture, I have no objection to putting that VL100 back, but I think we can do better, and am willing to wait until a more representative image of an old-timey fiddle comes along. __ Just plain Bill ( talk) 01:29, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
Benny Williams who played with Bill Monroe passed away recently and there is not a huge amount of secondary sources. I was hoping someone from this discussion might be able to help find some second party citations. GeoBard Rap 22:01, 16 July 2011 (UTC)
I hid the existing photo no one seems to like very much and added more b&w old photos to keep a unified visual. Maybe this one can be converted to b& w ??
23:46, 16 July 2011 (UTC)
If you go to edit the External Links section, you get an edit notice.
This is it:
Please prefer links which are meta-indexes or highly authoritative on account of the fact some WP editors get mad if you put too many links up- -IF YOU REMOVE ANY LINKS PLEASE PASTE THEM INTO THE TALK PAGE that way we can make sure a good resource doesn't get lost in the shuffle. We can replace the link somewhere else thanks. --
I am asking people to stick with it. Personally, I like lots of links but others won't so that is that. Geof 02:12, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
I came across these two sources:
Enjoy. -- Lo Ximiendo ( talk) 17:20, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
I'm a bit confused by this section - what is it's purpose? Wagon Wheel is not really related to old time fiddle specifically. It is co-written by Bob Dylan and Ketch Secor of Old Crow Medicine show. The tune has an old timey feel and uses a fiddle, but a "composed music in the old-time fiddle tradition" could mean something else - old time fiddle tunes (instrumental, dance oriented) that have have a verifiable composer.
Examples of this would be "Red Prairie Dawn" composed by Garry Harrison, which is played frequently at old time fiddlers conventions. Another could be "Half Past Four" which was composed by the legendary Kentucky old time fiddler Ed Haley in the early 20th century.
"Wagon Wheel" differs drastically from "Blackberry Blossom" and "Orange Blossom Special" which are instrumental fiddle tunes. Blackberry Blossom doesn't have a sole composer: /info/en/?search=Blackberry_Blossom_(tune)
What kind of information is trying to be conveyed with this section? It seems to me it should be split into differing sections: "Composed music in the tradition" which lists verifiable tunes that have a distinct composer, and "Influences on contemporary music" which can include the likes of "Wagon Wheel". Thoughts? ` Jmpilot ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 21:45, 3 April 2018 (UTC)
While running autowikibrowser through a list that contained, among other things, a lot of American folk-art articles, I came across this article. It contains a long "edit notice" in hidden comments, threatening sanctions if people remove video links from the article. I'm removing it for a number of reasons, including:
I dream of horses (Contribs) (Talk) 03:09, 18 October 2023 (UTC)