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Old King Cole was a merry old soul And a merry old soul was he; He called for his pipe, and he called for his bowl And he called for his fiddlers three.
Every fiddler he had a fiddle, And a very fine fiddle had he; Oh there's none so rare, as can compare With King Cole and his fiddlers three.
The instance of "pipe" need not imply a knowledge of tobacco. The term is very old, often referring to a musical instrument. Although "bowl" may well refer to something like a drinking bowl, the term is often used for gaming devices, and might be part of allusion to a general context of "merriment," but I wonder if the text has not become deformed. According to the Oxford English Dictionary, we have a reference dated about 1450 to the "lilt pipe, the lute, and the fiddle." Since lutes contained a bowl-like part, I wonder if the reference here is not to the lute.
In any case, it is not impossible that the nursery rhyme goes back to a period closer to the life of King Cole, presumably Coel Hen, who seems to belong to the early Fifth Century. We should also presume that the present nursery rhyme is a translation or rendition of an earlier bit, possibly in a Celtic language about Cole.
This information conflicts with the dates in Colchester. Hotlorp 03:27, 11 Jan 2004 (UTC)
On the lighter side: T.H. White mentions a song about Old King Cole in _The Once and Future King_.
Whe-an Wold King Cole/ was a/ wakkin doon-t'street He saw a-lovely laidy a / steppin-in-a-puddle./ She a lifted hup her skeat/ For to / hop acorst ter middle,/ An ee / saw her /an-kel. Wasn't that a fuddle?/ Ee could'ernt elp it,/ee Ad to. (pp. 139-140)
Does anyone know whether this verse has any existence outside Mr. White's (admittedly fertile) imagination? If so, is it old or comparatively modern? Are there other King Cole songs or legends? Thanks! -- Cladist Sun 21 Nov 2004
Colchester means Cole's Camp. Not Cole's Castle.
Coel Hen is sometimes credited for lending his name to the modern Scottish District of Kyle (in Ayrshire) where he said to have died (e.g. http://www.robertburns.org/encyclopedia/CoilusorCoila.223.shtml)...Kyle being a derivative of Coel. This corresponds to the old maps of the region (e.g. Coila Provincia - 1654) some of which can be viewed online at http://www.nls.uk/maps/
Yes! This is the kind of introductions Wikipedia needs more of! I must say that whoever made that intro did a very good job of it. -- 81.97.192.106 11:38, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
Oh, come on-- I have a Community Singing songbook (so it's from before the first world war) and it's British and it contains this version. Marnanel ( talk) 21:42, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
US military usage of variants of Old King Cole as a cadence predates the 1980's. There was a racier version which my grandfather knew from WWII. He died in 1968. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.181.204.140 ( talk) 00:12, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
There is a version where the last line goes "there's none so rare as can compare with the voice of the infantry" (which similarly goes through the ranks). I have sung as a campfire song at historical reenactments but I can't easily attribute that version. -- 176.252.226.165 ( talk) 10:09, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
I will have to track down the reference, but I have seen a version of this in a historical folk song collection indicating it dates to well before the American Revolution. Further, the song was recorded live in 1960 by Harry Belafonte. BSVulturis ( talk) 20:20, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
As a folk/tradtional musician i can confirm that the term "pipe" or "pipes"is commonly used as an informal term for bagpipes of any type/origin.-- Northerncelts ( talk) 19:19, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
There is a lot of information of Coel Hen and his descendents as well as his kingdom, and I think an entire spearate article could be built out of that, with only a summary on this page. If noone has any objections, I would like to do just that.--- G. T. N. —Preceding comment was added at 17:20, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
Recent changes to the article have changed the focus. The title is "Old King Cole" and therefore the focus should be the nursery rhyme of that name. Accordingly I have reverted the edits, but it is probably a debate worth having. The only unifying element (apart from name) seems to be the nursery rhyme. If individual pages for each possible king are valid we could create those and redirect there from each sub-section (as suggested above).-- Sabrebd ( talk) 16:00, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
I would prefer to create individual pages for the people, then place summaries here, but some care would be needed to make the distinctions clear.-- Sabrebd ( talk) 22:16, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Coal mining has nothing to do with this article's subject, it's just a homonym of a work in the title. Was someone pranking when they added it? I suppose I should be italic and remove it... Huw Powell ( talk) 20:47, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
It says "it cannot be qualified as English", but in the sidebar/infopanel it says "country: England; language: English". Now, if something which comes from England cannot be qualified as English, what can? The first sentence appears to imply that the rhyme is believed to originate in Wales and/or be a translation from Welsh or from Celtic, but no evidence for this proposition is put forward in the article, which also mentions the possibility that Cole is a reference to a Reading (and so English) cloth merchant and not to King Coel. With so much confusion and contradiction, the article does not make a lot of sense. 86.150.195.140 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:01, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
Suggest 'pipe' refers to a 'pipe' of wine, or ale. 'Bowl' refers to a drinking vessel, cf 'fill the flowing bowl' Hence, Old King Cole planned to get 'merry', with wine and music.
See /info/en/?search=English_wine_cask_units
And see : http://www.darachweb.net/SongLyrics/LandlordFillTheFlowingBowl.html
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content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Old King Cole was a merry old soul And a merry old soul was he; He called for his pipe, and he called for his bowl And he called for his fiddlers three.
Every fiddler he had a fiddle, And a very fine fiddle had he; Oh there's none so rare, as can compare With King Cole and his fiddlers three.
The instance of "pipe" need not imply a knowledge of tobacco. The term is very old, often referring to a musical instrument. Although "bowl" may well refer to something like a drinking bowl, the term is often used for gaming devices, and might be part of allusion to a general context of "merriment," but I wonder if the text has not become deformed. According to the Oxford English Dictionary, we have a reference dated about 1450 to the "lilt pipe, the lute, and the fiddle." Since lutes contained a bowl-like part, I wonder if the reference here is not to the lute.
In any case, it is not impossible that the nursery rhyme goes back to a period closer to the life of King Cole, presumably Coel Hen, who seems to belong to the early Fifth Century. We should also presume that the present nursery rhyme is a translation or rendition of an earlier bit, possibly in a Celtic language about Cole.
This information conflicts with the dates in Colchester. Hotlorp 03:27, 11 Jan 2004 (UTC)
On the lighter side: T.H. White mentions a song about Old King Cole in _The Once and Future King_.
Whe-an Wold King Cole/ was a/ wakkin doon-t'street He saw a-lovely laidy a / steppin-in-a-puddle./ She a lifted hup her skeat/ For to / hop acorst ter middle,/ An ee / saw her /an-kel. Wasn't that a fuddle?/ Ee could'ernt elp it,/ee Ad to. (pp. 139-140)
Does anyone know whether this verse has any existence outside Mr. White's (admittedly fertile) imagination? If so, is it old or comparatively modern? Are there other King Cole songs or legends? Thanks! -- Cladist Sun 21 Nov 2004
Colchester means Cole's Camp. Not Cole's Castle.
Coel Hen is sometimes credited for lending his name to the modern Scottish District of Kyle (in Ayrshire) where he said to have died (e.g. http://www.robertburns.org/encyclopedia/CoilusorCoila.223.shtml)...Kyle being a derivative of Coel. This corresponds to the old maps of the region (e.g. Coila Provincia - 1654) some of which can be viewed online at http://www.nls.uk/maps/
Yes! This is the kind of introductions Wikipedia needs more of! I must say that whoever made that intro did a very good job of it. -- 81.97.192.106 11:38, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
Oh, come on-- I have a Community Singing songbook (so it's from before the first world war) and it's British and it contains this version. Marnanel ( talk) 21:42, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
US military usage of variants of Old King Cole as a cadence predates the 1980's. There was a racier version which my grandfather knew from WWII. He died in 1968. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.181.204.140 ( talk) 00:12, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
There is a version where the last line goes "there's none so rare as can compare with the voice of the infantry" (which similarly goes through the ranks). I have sung as a campfire song at historical reenactments but I can't easily attribute that version. -- 176.252.226.165 ( talk) 10:09, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
I will have to track down the reference, but I have seen a version of this in a historical folk song collection indicating it dates to well before the American Revolution. Further, the song was recorded live in 1960 by Harry Belafonte. BSVulturis ( talk) 20:20, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
As a folk/tradtional musician i can confirm that the term "pipe" or "pipes"is commonly used as an informal term for bagpipes of any type/origin.-- Northerncelts ( talk) 19:19, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
There is a lot of information of Coel Hen and his descendents as well as his kingdom, and I think an entire spearate article could be built out of that, with only a summary on this page. If noone has any objections, I would like to do just that.--- G. T. N. —Preceding comment was added at 17:20, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
Recent changes to the article have changed the focus. The title is "Old King Cole" and therefore the focus should be the nursery rhyme of that name. Accordingly I have reverted the edits, but it is probably a debate worth having. The only unifying element (apart from name) seems to be the nursery rhyme. If individual pages for each possible king are valid we could create those and redirect there from each sub-section (as suggested above).-- Sabrebd ( talk) 16:00, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
I would prefer to create individual pages for the people, then place summaries here, but some care would be needed to make the distinctions clear.-- Sabrebd ( talk) 22:16, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Coal mining has nothing to do with this article's subject, it's just a homonym of a work in the title. Was someone pranking when they added it? I suppose I should be italic and remove it... Huw Powell ( talk) 20:47, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
It says "it cannot be qualified as English", but in the sidebar/infopanel it says "country: England; language: English". Now, if something which comes from England cannot be qualified as English, what can? The first sentence appears to imply that the rhyme is believed to originate in Wales and/or be a translation from Welsh or from Celtic, but no evidence for this proposition is put forward in the article, which also mentions the possibility that Cole is a reference to a Reading (and so English) cloth merchant and not to King Coel. With so much confusion and contradiction, the article does not make a lot of sense. 86.150.195.140 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:01, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
Suggest 'pipe' refers to a 'pipe' of wine, or ale. 'Bowl' refers to a drinking vessel, cf 'fill the flowing bowl' Hence, Old King Cole planned to get 'merry', with wine and music.
See /info/en/?search=English_wine_cask_units
And see : http://www.darachweb.net/SongLyrics/LandlordFillTheFlowingBowl.html