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This article was nominated for merging with Onogur on 2006. The result of the discussion was not to merge. |
im confused about the ethnic bulgars. im not trying to confuse them with modern bulgarians either my confusion is as to roughly when the last of these old ethnic bulgars may have lived. 76.211.5.253 ( talk) 02:58, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
It is simple Khan Asparuh, the son of Khan Kubrat (the last ruler of Old Great Bulgaria) moved the country south into what became [The First Bulgarian Empire], the Bulgars then became Bulgarians after merging with local Slavs and remnants of Thracian. Stephen.Kratz ( talk) 18:47, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
I have an issue with that sentence: "Old Great Bulgaria or Great Bulgaria (Παλαιά Μεγάλη Βουλγαρία in Byzantine chronicles) was а term used by Byzantine historians to refer to Onoguria during the reign of the Bulgar ruler Kubrat"
It introduces ambiguity about the name that state used to represent itself (and was referred to) in its diplomatic correspondence. We know that Heraclius had written diplomatic relations with Kubrat referring to his state as Bulgarian (or Bulgar - an "artificial" term introduced in the English language to distinguish modern Bulgarians from their ancestors. This has been a habit of some western historians since Hieronymus Wolf that they never applied to themselves by the way, but that`s abother topic). So we do have the primary sources which is the treaty of 635 between Great Bulgaria and the (Eastern) Roman Empire which is a de facto international diplomatic recognition of the state's status ... and name as Bulgarian state. Now can anyone cite me a diplomatic document from that time that calls THAT state Onoguria ... ? I certainly have not heard of such thing. As it might seem we are ignoring the basic principle of historiography and the primary sources. We decide to call a historic state with a name that would be strange to its contemporaries and the gradually phase out the name it actually used to have. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.29.174.182 ( talk) 03:51, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
Absolutely, the history of the Onogurs before and after OGB (GOB?) needs more and better treatment, but that's no reason to merge it with a much shorter-lived polity. — LlywelynII 06:12, 2 October 2011 (UTC)...
2) ... separate topics [that] could be expanded into longer standalone (but cross linked) articles
3) ... discrete subjects [that] deserve their own articles even though they may be short
Ukraine related?!? Wtf
This article describes part of Bulgarian history, not Russian. Bulgaria is not part of Russia and it had never been. As it is said above, just because "before 1000-1200 years back there was one state..." we can say just because once this territory has been part of Russia (or USSR) this doesn't mean that this article, describes part of Russian history. At the time where there is Old Great Bulgaria, there is not Russian territory.
The title of the article unpleasantly smacks of original research. I recommend moving to the Bulgar Khanate or something along these lines. -- Ghirla -трёп- 20:59, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
I do not know in Hungarian language what this 10 tribes means. A lot of history in Hungarian web sides (of which I understand 30 to 40 per cent, but with coresponding Finnsh text nearly all). In Finnish old history, (when tights between "Unkari and Suomi") were much closer than even today, the seven tribes were called Onogurs. According to old Finnish literature they were linked someway to Ostjaki (Handa-hui) and Vogul peoples behind Urals or living along now a days Kama River. The first written mention is from old Chinese mentions where they paid a lot of money of these "young beautiful girls" together with other Finno Ugrian peoples living behind of "Central Empire" about 500 - 400 BC have been found out in China during the last thirty years. (See also James S. Gregory: "Russian Land, Soviet People", London 1968.) According to old Finnish history the State which existed between "Central State" and rest of the world was known "Hiong-nu" between Altai and China and Hunnis (Huns) were just one tribe which lived there.
According to this Hungarians existed in old Herodotos history by name of "Iurkis" or "Thushovads" living on the course of Kivi (now Russian Kama River) by detailed describition how they treated their horses and were separated from other Uralic people in this area. (By the way, after 1944 the Soviet Government under Allied Control Committee tried to forbidden this book, considering it as too dangerous to be in public libraries in Finland.) The Hungarians were mentioned in addition to one Kazar tribe joined to Hungarians called "Kabaris" to enter to Pannonia in 895 - 869 under the Holy Izstvan (Stephan), using Karpathian gorges on their way to Pannonia. According to old documents from late 1880 and 1910 the Maris called their "old relatives" Thuvassians (ex Itil Bolgars) with name "Suaslan Maris". JN
Absolute Monarchy?
Do the sources say so? I believe this is still questionable. Please define absolut monarchy! One may rather think it was a kind of tribal federation combining say absolutist" and "democratic" elements.
critical thinking.
xiongnu 100AD -hunnic 400AD- great old bulgaria 512AD
what turkic are you talking about?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Great_Bulgaria
how is it that turk is older term than Bulgar when great old bulgaria can not be lemon fresh at 600 AD. in order something to be great and old it needs to be at least 100 years old if not more????????????????????????? he is a descendant from the HUNS
47. And when the inhabitants of Byzantium heard this news, they said: 'This project is concerned with Kubratos, chief of the Huns, the nephew of Organa, who was baptized in the city of Constantinople, and received into the Christian community in his childhood and had grown up in the imperial palace.[1]
[1] http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/nikiu2_chronicle.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashina_(clan)
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.33.211.25 ( talk) 01:29, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
anyone knows how to translate the works of prof. zivko wojnikov????????
anyone??????????????? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.33.211.25 ( talk) 22:01, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
very interesting how a greek national doesn't allow a bulgarian national to write about the bulgarian history.
you can censorship all you want,this only proves your real "democracy". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.33.211.25 ( talk) 17:52, 4 May 2014 (UTC) http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/btn_GeographyMaps/AD_650KubratBulgaria.jpg — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.70.251.91 ( talk) 04:02, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
http://www.cross.bg/istoriya-bulgarite-bulgarskiya-1382006.html#axzz31tj4itwf
bulgarians are not turks.
bulgarian parliament passed a law anyone who uses the term turk will have problem with european law.
the term turk needs to be replaced with huns or xiongnu.
reference --the link above. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.70.251.91 ( talk) 21:38, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
mingazov is not a proper source.
he is not an official Bulgarian scholar.
Russian and turkish propaganda can write all they want, but the truth is obvious. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.70.251.91 ( talk) 04:26, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
CHAPTER CXX the oldest documents about Bulgaria and Kubrat are from the chronics of JOhn of Nikiu in early 600 AD:
47. And when the inhabitants of Byzantium heard this news, they said: 'This project is concerned with Kubratos, chief of the Huns, the nephew of Organa, who was baptized in the city of Constantinople, and received into the Christian community in his childhood and had grown up in the imperial palace.'
CHAPTER LXXXIX 74. But immediately on his return to the emperor, the latter removed him from his command, and appointed in his room another general, named Cyril, of the province of Illyria. 75. And he also gave battle to Vitalian, and there was great slaughter on both sides. Cyril the general retired into the city named Odyssus, and stayed there while Vitalian withdrew into the province of Bulgaria.
http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/nikiu2_chronicle.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.70.251.91 ( talk) 23:40, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
Старая Великая Болгария(165-668гг.).[edytuj kod] На сегодняшний день мировой историографией официально признано, что на территории современной Украины и Северного Кавказа в VII в.н.э. существовало государство Старая Великая Болгария(165-668гг.). http://www.kubrat.in.ua/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=58%3A2012-07-20-13-56-51&catid=4%3A2011-03-04-13-21-14 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.70.250.219 ( talk) 19:25, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
Very interesting source, do you have more sources on this topic? Should this be in the article? Stephen.Kratz ( talk) 18:53, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Between notes 14 and 15 there is a reference to Agathon which links - incorrectly - to the Greek poet Agathon (448-400 BC). The Agathon mentioned under Origins may well have been Agathon the Reader who in the early 8th century was at the library in Constantinople and therefore may have been well placed. However, unless and until it is established to have been Agathon the Reader I suggest changing the linked reference by removing the link to the poet Agathon. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.169.150.6 ( talk) 13:38, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
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This article was nominated for merging with Onogur on 2006. The result of the discussion was not to merge. |
im confused about the ethnic bulgars. im not trying to confuse them with modern bulgarians either my confusion is as to roughly when the last of these old ethnic bulgars may have lived. 76.211.5.253 ( talk) 02:58, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
It is simple Khan Asparuh, the son of Khan Kubrat (the last ruler of Old Great Bulgaria) moved the country south into what became [The First Bulgarian Empire], the Bulgars then became Bulgarians after merging with local Slavs and remnants of Thracian. Stephen.Kratz ( talk) 18:47, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
I have an issue with that sentence: "Old Great Bulgaria or Great Bulgaria (Παλαιά Μεγάλη Βουλγαρία in Byzantine chronicles) was а term used by Byzantine historians to refer to Onoguria during the reign of the Bulgar ruler Kubrat"
It introduces ambiguity about the name that state used to represent itself (and was referred to) in its diplomatic correspondence. We know that Heraclius had written diplomatic relations with Kubrat referring to his state as Bulgarian (or Bulgar - an "artificial" term introduced in the English language to distinguish modern Bulgarians from their ancestors. This has been a habit of some western historians since Hieronymus Wolf that they never applied to themselves by the way, but that`s abother topic). So we do have the primary sources which is the treaty of 635 between Great Bulgaria and the (Eastern) Roman Empire which is a de facto international diplomatic recognition of the state's status ... and name as Bulgarian state. Now can anyone cite me a diplomatic document from that time that calls THAT state Onoguria ... ? I certainly have not heard of such thing. As it might seem we are ignoring the basic principle of historiography and the primary sources. We decide to call a historic state with a name that would be strange to its contemporaries and the gradually phase out the name it actually used to have. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.29.174.182 ( talk) 03:51, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
Absolutely, the history of the Onogurs before and after OGB (GOB?) needs more and better treatment, but that's no reason to merge it with a much shorter-lived polity. — LlywelynII 06:12, 2 October 2011 (UTC)...
2) ... separate topics [that] could be expanded into longer standalone (but cross linked) articles
3) ... discrete subjects [that] deserve their own articles even though they may be short
Ukraine related?!? Wtf
This article describes part of Bulgarian history, not Russian. Bulgaria is not part of Russia and it had never been. As it is said above, just because "before 1000-1200 years back there was one state..." we can say just because once this territory has been part of Russia (or USSR) this doesn't mean that this article, describes part of Russian history. At the time where there is Old Great Bulgaria, there is not Russian territory.
The title of the article unpleasantly smacks of original research. I recommend moving to the Bulgar Khanate or something along these lines. -- Ghirla -трёп- 20:59, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
I do not know in Hungarian language what this 10 tribes means. A lot of history in Hungarian web sides (of which I understand 30 to 40 per cent, but with coresponding Finnsh text nearly all). In Finnish old history, (when tights between "Unkari and Suomi") were much closer than even today, the seven tribes were called Onogurs. According to old Finnish literature they were linked someway to Ostjaki (Handa-hui) and Vogul peoples behind Urals or living along now a days Kama River. The first written mention is from old Chinese mentions where they paid a lot of money of these "young beautiful girls" together with other Finno Ugrian peoples living behind of "Central Empire" about 500 - 400 BC have been found out in China during the last thirty years. (See also James S. Gregory: "Russian Land, Soviet People", London 1968.) According to old Finnish history the State which existed between "Central State" and rest of the world was known "Hiong-nu" between Altai and China and Hunnis (Huns) were just one tribe which lived there.
According to this Hungarians existed in old Herodotos history by name of "Iurkis" or "Thushovads" living on the course of Kivi (now Russian Kama River) by detailed describition how they treated their horses and were separated from other Uralic people in this area. (By the way, after 1944 the Soviet Government under Allied Control Committee tried to forbidden this book, considering it as too dangerous to be in public libraries in Finland.) The Hungarians were mentioned in addition to one Kazar tribe joined to Hungarians called "Kabaris" to enter to Pannonia in 895 - 869 under the Holy Izstvan (Stephan), using Karpathian gorges on their way to Pannonia. According to old documents from late 1880 and 1910 the Maris called their "old relatives" Thuvassians (ex Itil Bolgars) with name "Suaslan Maris". JN
Absolute Monarchy?
Do the sources say so? I believe this is still questionable. Please define absolut monarchy! One may rather think it was a kind of tribal federation combining say absolutist" and "democratic" elements.
critical thinking.
xiongnu 100AD -hunnic 400AD- great old bulgaria 512AD
what turkic are you talking about?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Great_Bulgaria
how is it that turk is older term than Bulgar when great old bulgaria can not be lemon fresh at 600 AD. in order something to be great and old it needs to be at least 100 years old if not more????????????????????????? he is a descendant from the HUNS
47. And when the inhabitants of Byzantium heard this news, they said: 'This project is concerned with Kubratos, chief of the Huns, the nephew of Organa, who was baptized in the city of Constantinople, and received into the Christian community in his childhood and had grown up in the imperial palace.[1]
[1] http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/nikiu2_chronicle.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashina_(clan)
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.33.211.25 ( talk) 01:29, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
anyone knows how to translate the works of prof. zivko wojnikov????????
anyone??????????????? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.33.211.25 ( talk) 22:01, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
very interesting how a greek national doesn't allow a bulgarian national to write about the bulgarian history.
you can censorship all you want,this only proves your real "democracy". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.33.211.25 ( talk) 17:52, 4 May 2014 (UTC) http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/btn_GeographyMaps/AD_650KubratBulgaria.jpg — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.70.251.91 ( talk) 04:02, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
http://www.cross.bg/istoriya-bulgarite-bulgarskiya-1382006.html#axzz31tj4itwf
bulgarians are not turks.
bulgarian parliament passed a law anyone who uses the term turk will have problem with european law.
the term turk needs to be replaced with huns or xiongnu.
reference --the link above. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.70.251.91 ( talk) 21:38, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
mingazov is not a proper source.
he is not an official Bulgarian scholar.
Russian and turkish propaganda can write all they want, but the truth is obvious. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.70.251.91 ( talk) 04:26, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
CHAPTER CXX the oldest documents about Bulgaria and Kubrat are from the chronics of JOhn of Nikiu in early 600 AD:
47. And when the inhabitants of Byzantium heard this news, they said: 'This project is concerned with Kubratos, chief of the Huns, the nephew of Organa, who was baptized in the city of Constantinople, and received into the Christian community in his childhood and had grown up in the imperial palace.'
CHAPTER LXXXIX 74. But immediately on his return to the emperor, the latter removed him from his command, and appointed in his room another general, named Cyril, of the province of Illyria. 75. And he also gave battle to Vitalian, and there was great slaughter on both sides. Cyril the general retired into the city named Odyssus, and stayed there while Vitalian withdrew into the province of Bulgaria.
http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/nikiu2_chronicle.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.70.251.91 ( talk) 23:40, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
Старая Великая Болгария(165-668гг.).[edytuj kod] На сегодняшний день мировой историографией официально признано, что на территории современной Украины и Северного Кавказа в VII в.н.э. существовало государство Старая Великая Болгария(165-668гг.). http://www.kubrat.in.ua/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=58%3A2012-07-20-13-56-51&catid=4%3A2011-03-04-13-21-14 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.70.250.219 ( talk) 19:25, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
Very interesting source, do you have more sources on this topic? Should this be in the article? Stephen.Kratz ( talk) 18:53, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Between notes 14 and 15 there is a reference to Agathon which links - incorrectly - to the Greek poet Agathon (448-400 BC). The Agathon mentioned under Origins may well have been Agathon the Reader who in the early 8th century was at the library in Constantinople and therefore may have been well placed. However, unless and until it is established to have been Agathon the Reader I suggest changing the linked reference by removing the link to the poet Agathon. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.169.150.6 ( talk) 13:38, 17 April 2018 (UTC)