![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
IMHO, using all the surviving cognates in the translations, regardeless of their meaning, is... err... Not Good. The result is a translation into a language that doesn't exist - a New English from an alternative universe where much of the Old English grammar, many of the Old English words and all the Old English meanings of words have been preserved. It's an amusement for a child, but it's not encyclopedic. Indeed, inventing a language like this gives the concept of OR a whole new meaning. Moreover, it doesn't read good - actually, reading it is a torture even for nerds. "I nam"? "Mid God's support"? "Swike"? WTH, is this supposed to be English? It's not 19th century poetic language, it's not Scotch dialect, it's not Elizabethan, it's not even Caxton's English. Instead of placing the confusing or simply invented cognates first and then adding the explanatory words, it would make more sense to do it the other way round. I.e., not:
And I kithe(make known/couth to) you, that I will be [a] hold(civilized) lord and unswiking(uncheating) to God's rights(laws) and to [the] rights(laws) worldly.
but, at the very worst,
I make known ("kithe") to you, that I will be a civilized ("hold") lord and uncheating ("unswiking") to God's laws ("rights") and to the worldly laws ("rights").
I'm not coming back, because I'm afraid a potential quarrel with the creator(s) of this translation might take too long.-- 91.148.159.4 21:45, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
---- "It doesn't read good"? hmmm....
The edits as stand seem alright. But, as has already been discussed at length, the idea behind the gloss is not to be an effective translation, but a metric to help give a perspective of the extent of actual difference in the language apart from orthographic conventions. Obviously, anyone researching Old English either doesn't know what these texts are and only cares about what the language looks like, or they have already read a translation of the texts and are interested in the original language. Either way, translating the texts into good modern english prose doesn't really matter here. So if you feel that an original prose translation is called for, fine. But you should understand that it is somewhat beyond the scope of this article.-- 99.206.157.217 ( talk) 13:51, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
A couple of the links are dead, or link to websites with a lot of dead links. For example, the Absolute Beginner's Guide, if you try to use it, only has two chapters online and an invitation to buy (fine), but if you actually want to buy it the link to the store is dead.
I'm not changing anything because I'm not that Wp-savvy; but someone who knows what they're doing might want to check out the link integrity.
Quite a few of the links, I should say, I found very useful -- great article. CC. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.15.121.40 ( talk • contribs) 23:59, 4 August 2008
The Dialects section may have become garbled with this edit. This came to my attention with this recent edit. Ordinarily I would suspect an anon edit with no edit summary, but Æthelwold lived later than Alfred. Still it may not be right, for I believe it is Late West Saxon that is called Classical. Can an expert fix it? — teb728 t c 08:46, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
There were to my knowledge, two Kings called Aethelwold; one before and one after Alfred, so maybe this can clear up some confusion? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.201.82.78 ( talk) 17:17, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
In the Dialects section of the article, there's this paragraph:
Modern-day Received Pronunciation is not a direct descendant of the best-attested dialect, Late West Saxon. It is rather a descendent of a Mercian dialect — either East Mercian or South-East Mercian. Thus, Late West Saxon had little influence on the development of Modern English (by which is meant RP or some similar dialect) and the developments occurring in its antecedent, Middle English.
To treat Received Pronunciation as a dialect contradicts its own article, which states that Received Pronunciation is not a dialect, but only a pronunciation of English. As I am not a linguist, nor have I read much on linguistics or anything on this particular issue outside of Wikipedia, I do not feel comfortable making any changes myself. Laogeodritt [ Talk | Contribs ] 02:39, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
Dialects are mutually intelligible varients of a language, so RP is most definitely a dialect of English, unless of course it's not intelligible to you. Then I guess it would have to be a sister language.--
65.6.62.47 (
talk)
14:37, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
It is incorrect to use RP when discussing dialects. The writer (and the person who made the comment immediately above) presumably means Standard English'. If anyone is unclear as to the difference between an accent and a dialect, may I be permitted to use myself as an example ? I am from the North of England, but well-educated - in the State system, not in public (ie expensive) schools). In informal conversation, and perhaps in SMS messages, I use dialect words such as aye, ginnel, and nesh (yes, alley, soft). In an office meeting or when doing a presentation, or when writing a report, I sick to Standard English words. But however formally I am speaking, I never use an RP accent. RP is the accent used mostly by people (from whatever part of England) who went to public schools or want people to think they did. My accent is a mixture of Lancashire (where I was born) and Yorkshire (where I have lived for decades). For instance, for me the a in path or bath is the same as the one in gas - although I have lost the rhotic r, which is still used in Lancashire and the South West of England, but not in Yorkshire, and the long oooo in book. I am therefore a good example of someone who in formal situations uses the Standard English dialect (words and grammar) but not the RP accent (pronounciation). A literary example would be JB Priestley. Because he used Standard English, it is not possible when reading his books to discern what part of England (or Britain) he comes from ; but his northern English origin is immediately apparent when you hear a recording of his non-RP voice. Could someone please amend the article to remove the use of RP as an example of a dialect ? (Chris Jones, Sheffield, Yorkshire - 25 August 2009)
Hi, I speak a very little Old English, but quite like the language. I have posted an external link to a new (quite new) wiki that I've made concerning Old English ( [1]), and would really love some help with it. Gottistgut ( talk) 05:29, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
The section on putative Celtic influence is very short. Would it be possible to expand it at least with a list of syntactic features which can be argued to be of Celtic origin? Alternatively, if this is deemed too controversial for the main OE article, would there be any mileage in starting a separate article on theories of Celtic influence on English? -- Doric Loon ( talk) 09:06, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
Also it should be noted properly that it is a minority view. At the moment it is written in such a way that it implies that it is either a majority view or "experst be damned this is correct" but that is too be expected on Wikipedia, these days.
Edit: Note that it is very minority in regards to Old English with most (who believe such a thing) arguing that Celtic influence on the Syntax was during the Middle English stage. Sigurd Dragon Slayer ( talk) 23:22, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
I don't think it's accurate to say in the Orthography section that the various styles of writing replaced each other as if in a time line. Surely while a new style came into vogue, the others did not cease to be written and read, and different styles prevailed in different spheres of writing. It seems like it would be sufficient just to detail the most common styles of writing used in Old English manuscripts.-- 72.150.235.179 ( talk) 03:40, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
It strikes me that there is apparently no definite article in Old English - at least there is no mention of it here and in the related wiki articles. Could anyone write something about it? [revilo178 - 10.02.2009, 23:01] -- I've found it. [11.02.2009, 12:48]
Retrieved from " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Old_English_morphology" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.134.63.101 ( talk) 21:46, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
Could s.o. take a look at Ecgþeow? The IPA seemed dubious, but I can't do much better. kwami ( talk) 14:17, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
I have added a brief article on the relationship between English and Saxon with notes on the evolution of scholarly opinions about their relationship. I think it is very important for readers to be aware of the nationalistic politics involved with terms like "Old English" and "Saxon" and so on. Simply presenting the official Oxbridge view of the origins of the English language and not informing the reader that these views have changed over time is deceptive. Regarding the "Celtic" (I would use the word Gaelic) influences on English you could make the same kind of arguments: it does the reader a diservice to pretend these issues do not exist. For example, virtually all the manuscripts written in so-called "Old English" are written in insular scripts that originated in Ireland. For the purposes of this article I think it is unecessary to try to explicate all the complexities of linguistic politics involved, BUT it is important that the reader at least be made aware of them so that they know they are reading information that has been politically influenced. John Chamberlain ( talk) 22:25, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
Although there is a list of sources within the article, it is not clear from where individual sections are referenced. For instance: where is the Charter of Cnut located? It could be clearer in the article itself. Zach Beauvais ( talk) 12:02, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
Does anyone here know who was the first person to realize that Anglo-Saxon was an early form of English? John Joscelyn was the Latin secretary of Matthew Parker (b. 1504), and Parker asked him to write an Anglo-Saxon dictionary, though this was never finished. Roughly 500 years had passed between the Norman Invasion and Parker's era. By that time, English was almost in its modern form, and Old English would have seemed like a foreign language, just as it does now. There is no evidence that Joscelyn thought that the Anglo-Saxon manuscripts he studied were a form of early English. Anglo-saxon was not called "Old English" in Joscelyn's day. I think it is assumed that during the intervening 500 years, all the Anglo-Saxon manuscripts had been locked up in the monasteries and only came to the light of day after the Dissolution of the Monasteries. So if it wasn't Joscelyn, it would have been someone after him. Does anyone know who this would have been? Here's a link about Joscelyn: http://www.litencyc.com/php/speople.php?rec=true&UID=11743 HeWasCalledYClept ( talk) 21:00, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
What OE words do we use in modern language? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.201.33.75 ( talk • contribs) 20:14, 3 November 2009
When someone puts in a clarification needed tag, as I've done with the unclear statement that England was "created" in the 5th century, the proper response is either to rewrite the odd sentence so that it is clear or to put in a reference link/citation. The proper response is not simply to remove the tag without providing either clarity or a link. However, this is what User:TharkunColl has done twice. That is unfortunate. Moncrief ( talk) 04:21, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
The letter from Cnut (Canute) - as a Dane I call him Knud - is NOT from 1020, it is from 1027, when he returned from his journey to Rome, where he participated in the coronation of Conrad II. Jan Eskildsen 87.57.197.134 ( talk) 23:42, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
"It is very common for the intermixing of speakers of different dialects, such as those that occur during times of political unrest, to result in a mixed language, and one theory who? holds that exactly such a mixture of Old Norse and Old English helped accelerate the decline of case endings in Old English. citation needed"
I know that John McWhorter discusses this theory in the book "Our Magnificent Bastard Tongue: The Untold Story of English" (2008), but I am not sure if he originated it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by False dichotomy ( talk • contribs) 16:59, 10 November 2010
I can understand the value of using modern cognates of Old English words in translation so that people can easily identify word correspondences, but isn't it misleading if the modern cognate has a significantly different meaning than the Old English word? For that matter, can we really call a word like "thrum" modern, given that the last citation for it in the OED is 1450? When I take a quick look through the OED, I see that the most recent citation for all of the following words was in Middle English: gare, thede, thrum, ellen, freme, atee, frover. In the most extreme instance (ellen) the most recent citation is 1240. These are not modern cognates, but late medieval cognates of early medieval words. Would it be more useful to simply do interlinear glossing of the Old English rather than give late medieval cognates which subsequently have to be translated into Modern English? As a side note, I am using the term "modern cognate" here simply because it is what the article uses, but I personally would prefer "modern reflex" or "modern descendant." 99.231.30.19 ( talk) 00:47, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
I can't help feeling it's rather odd that the citation of Thomas Shore's book now links the author's name to ru:Шор, Томас Уильям - his article in the Russian Wikipedia. I understand why Dmitri Koshelyev (Koshelyov? I don't know where the stress is) has done this - because there is an article on him in Russian and not one in English - but I wonder if it is helpful to general readers, who may be puzzled why they have been sent to this unreadable page. No doubt the best solution is to write an English article on him, but in the meantime is this helpful? -- ColinFine ( talk) 12:12, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
"Also used occasionally were abbreviations for following m’s or n’s." In the Orthography section. It is incorrect to use apostrophes to denote plurality under any circumstances, even the plural of single letters, symbols, digits or acronyms. The correct way would be to italicise the m and n followed by an uninitialised s or vice versa. Another solution would be to reword the sentence thus: "Also used occasionally were abbreviations for following an m or an n." 86.136.153.246 ( talk) 12:40, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
According to Garner's Modern American Usage, apostrophes can be used to "mark the plural of an acronym, number, or letter..." He gives the example of "p's and q's," so for this case I believe "m's or n's" is acceptable, and is easier to read and understand. This entry was found on page 674 of the third edition if you want to verify.
I notice that the g's in "forgyf" and "forgyfaþ" on line 6 of Fæder Ūre are not marked as palatalized. They should be. I am aware that a historically velar "g" before a "y" arising from i-mutation of "u" was not palatalized, but the "y" in "gyfan" is actually historically "i" (it is a strong verb - historical strong verbs didn't get i-mutated infinitives) - I won't bother going into the details of why it was written as "y" here. Also, there are clear Middle English examples that show that it was indeed palatalized. Most likely Modern English velar "give" is due to Norse influence.
I will do the correcting edit myself in a day or two, providing no one can object to what I've said. Gott wisst ( talk) 06:32, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
I understand that the purpose of this table is to give a general overview of the changes. But it has gotten the chronology muddled a bit. Firstly, the -e of "five" was lost before the raising of unstressed e to i, because -e was lost while -i was not. Secondly, the loss of final -t occurred after the nasalisation of final -n. And according to Ringe 2006 the nasalisation happened before the change of ā to ō. The article Proto-Germanic gives a more detailed (and sourced) overview. CodeCat ( talk) 14:58, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
The sentence "Of these, all of Northumbria and most of Mercia were overrun by the Vikings during the 9th century." is not entirely accurate. The nothern part of the old Anglo-Saxon Kingdom of Northumbria seems to have allied itself (or been anexed by) the King of the Scots during this turbulent period - thus becoming in a later time Lowland Scotland (Lothian etc) . It's the reason that today's, 'Scotland' speaks English (or 'Scots'if one prefers)rather than Gaelic as the orginal Scots did. Cassandra — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.5.4.144 ( talk) 08:55, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
Only Lothian and the eastern borders were anglosaxon in language and even that's iffy (enough placename evidence to suspect a survival of the northern welsh that far east). The western lowlands were mixed Gaelic and North Welsh. 216.252.76.74 ( talk) 20:51, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
Probably true for the 9th century. However things moved on. There were large numbers of English refugees after 1066 and the Norman invasion, followed by even more refugees as a result of William's Harrowing of the North. In the next generation King David of Scotland, sponsored by Henry I, created Royal Burghs and populated them with people drawn from all parts of England. By the 16th century lowland Scots were described by one foreign visitor as speaking 'Saxon, old Teutonic, the same as in England'. Those dialects now commonly called Scots are in reality the northernmost dialects of 'Northern' or 'Northumbrian' English. Cassandra.
The first I note FIRST German king was Charlemange of the 8th century!. So old English was latin as ins Bede's writtings, to King William of 1066 the dooms day book just to name a few examples. German did not exist in the 5th century it is IMPOSSIBLE!. So please if OLD English existed before the 13th century NORMANS that brought it to England. Please show some evidence. Also northen Germany near Holstein was part of Germany Magna, and they where not part of the Roman Empire, so they where not belivers of Christ. You need to do some research and stop writing dishonest lies. Atilla the Hun went up the danube and rhine and was killed in France 454AD. Avars had bases in Hunguary and Bugaria in the 8,9th century. Who ever wrote this of low intelligence. So please show the world!. Ohh sorry I believe some else wrote some thing simlar but you keep deleting his comments. Propaganda machine is at work here — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.80.98.184 ( talk) 16:00, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
All you do is tell your lies here. Engish language did not exist until the Norman's( Orginally a tribe from Scandinavia) brought it over from present day France over sometime in the late 13th century. Facts are 1. German language did not exist until 8th century!. Why see ptolemy's maps from 2nd century AD, Germania (Mostly Roman, Christians and where latin speakers and writers, and Germania Manga which includes the area's of Schleswig-Holstein ( East and northern side, Non Christians, most likey did not speak latin). Charlemange was note: First German king in mid 8th century who started the use of the German language see Monk "Abogran". So how could these Anglo Saxon mythical tribes speak OLD ENGLISH when the German language did not exist in the 5th century its IMPOSSIBLE!. Attila the hun also traveled up the Danube and then the Rhine and was killed in Gaul (France) no where near the Angles. No Huns made it that far ever, And the later Avars around the 8th and 9th century had bases in Hungary and Bulgaria. Mongols in the 13th century also never made it to Schleswig-Holstein area. Please supply some artifacts some copies of the actual documents from 1000-1500 years ago. And shame me in front of the whole world. Also the slavic tribes see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limes_Saxoniae. Arrived in 9th century but yes all the Germanic and Germans tribes left for Britannia in the 5th century AD. My history is not the best but I believe only two unarmed Saxon tribes arrived by ship in the city of present day Wessex around 460,470AD but Saxony is near Czech Republic?. All English old documents like the dooms day book 1066, Bede the Monk, as example are in latin, all your churches before say the 16th century where all christian and later Catholic. I could go and on but you really should know better. OLD ENGLISH. Thou shall be quite now. https://www.google.com.au/search?q=germania+magna&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=VYZ5U5ziGcnikAWAsoG4DQ&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ&biw=1280&bih=684#q=magna+germania&spell=1&tbm=isch https://www.google.com.au/#q=britannia+latin+cities+names http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Latin_place_names_in_Britain ROMANS spoke and wrote in latin. SCHLESWIG HOLSTEIN WAS IN GERMANY MANGA they where not Christens like you!. OLD ENGLISH is mostly a latin based language
What's the number of speakers? -- Michael ( talk) 08:40, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
These two sentences do not seem to agree. Also, under what possible interpretation was Old English "similar" to Classical Latin? Because they both had cases and grammatical gender? 151.163.2.113 ( talk) 17:23, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
I moved this from my talk page, because others will be interested. — Eru· tuon 16:42, 29 April 2015 (UTC)
Hi, your revert to the IP's edit in the above may not be correct. The sentence begins: The only remnants of this system in Modern English are in a few pronouns (the meanings of I (nominative) my (genitive) and me (accusative/dative) in the first person provide an example).... However, the word my is an adjective, not a pronoun and the IP's change to mine is correct as it is a pronoun. Denisarona ( talk) 07:14, 28 April 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to 3 external links on
Old English. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
An editor has reviewed this edit and fixed any errors that were found.
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 12:50, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
I added the following statement in the lead:
Ajd raised a concern about this. I wanted to clarify.
Middle English is a radically different language from Old English. Old English is clearly a Germanic language, but not just because of vocabulary. The grammar, including noun declensions and verb conjugation are very clearly Germanic and very similar to modern German. This is not at all true of Middle English. Though ME preserves more of the Germanic grammar than Modern English it was still radically different from Germanic languages and in fact picked up a lot of Romance aspects of grammar, something that does not normally happen with borrowing (borrowing usually involves vocabulary, not grammar). Some linguists in fact categorize Middle/Middle English as a creole of Norman and Old English. One characteristic of a creole is that whereas its vocabulary is borrowed from its parent languages, its grammar is typically much simpler and quite different from either of the parents, something that is very true of ME. Certainly whether to classify it as a creole or not is a matter of debate within the linguistic community, the fact the Norman conquest created a radically altered language that was influenced by Norman in every aspect is not debated.
All of this was the point I was trying to make (succinctly in the lead).
--MC — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.131.2.3 ( talk) 19:48, 20 June 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Old English. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 15:34, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
This map [5] needs to be removed because it peddles the same myths about the Germanic peoples that were circulated in the 19th and early 20th centuries. For one, how can you draw such clear borders between supposed ancient "Germanic" dialects if no written record of them exists?! Also, archeological evidence show a different picture all together, with many inhabited areas referred to as "cultures' because they can't be linked with certainty to any specific group of peoples. -- E-960 ( talk) 03:53, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
The term “Anglo-Saxon” is a problematic one and it has recently fallen out of use by scholars for its adoption by racist and nationalist groups. While the term was in use during the time period, it was not used to refer to a specific ethnic group, and modern assignations are suspect, if not downright incorrect. I’ll leave the decision to those who edit the page, but a dialogue needs to be had, especially since scholars and scholarship are dropping it. I recommend referring to the language as only “Old English.” When referring to people or kingdoms, I recommend “early English,” “early Medieval English,” or “Medieval English,” and etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8800:2183:9900:8C6F:D873:E2C8:77C6 ( talk) 03:24, 7 March 2020 (UTC)
I want to get rid of the conlang "translation" for the examples, and replace them with English translations. It's ugly, confusing, and ahistorical. Gottistgut ( talk) 05:33, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
In the vowel table in the phonology section, the vowels aren't hyperlinked to the pages for the corresponding phonemes like the consonants are. Seems like an easy fix but I don't have editing access. Is there a reason why they're not linked?
2600:1700:13C1:93E0:ED6C:3C00:9DCA:9DC2 ( talk) 21:46, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
...the Angles acquired their name because their land on the coast of Jutland (now mainland Denmark) resembled a fishhook. Sorry but the homeland of the Angles is the peninsula of Anglia which is in today's Schleswig-Holstein and not in Jutland. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arndt1969 ( talk • contribs) 21:06, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
Eald english (englisċ, pronounced [ˈeŋɡliʃ]), or anglo-saxon,[1] ys the earliest recorded forme of the english language, spoken yn Engelond and southern and eastern scotland yn the early middle ages. It was brought to great britayn by anglo-saxon settlers yn the mid-5th century, and the first eald english literary works date from the mid-7th century. After the norman conquest of 1066, english was replaced, for a tyme, by anglo-norman (a relative of french) as the language of the upper classes. This ys regarded as markyng the ende of the eald english era, synce duryng this period the english language was heavily ynfluenced by anglo-norman, developyng ynto a phase known nowe as middle english yn Engelond and early scots yn scotland. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JoesephMama ( talk • contribs) 13:58, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
is /ddʒ/ (the pronunciation of <cg>) supposed to be [d͡ːʒ] or [d.d͡ʒ]? bidoof 18:20, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
Wiktionary and this article use the spelling "Englisċ", but apparently Old English Wikipedia uses "Ænglisċ". What's up with that?
I feel like Wikimedia needs to be consistent about spelling. What's the general consensus among linguists? Dennis Dartman ( talk) 01:57, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
IMHO, using all the surviving cognates in the translations, regardeless of their meaning, is... err... Not Good. The result is a translation into a language that doesn't exist - a New English from an alternative universe where much of the Old English grammar, many of the Old English words and all the Old English meanings of words have been preserved. It's an amusement for a child, but it's not encyclopedic. Indeed, inventing a language like this gives the concept of OR a whole new meaning. Moreover, it doesn't read good - actually, reading it is a torture even for nerds. "I nam"? "Mid God's support"? "Swike"? WTH, is this supposed to be English? It's not 19th century poetic language, it's not Scotch dialect, it's not Elizabethan, it's not even Caxton's English. Instead of placing the confusing or simply invented cognates first and then adding the explanatory words, it would make more sense to do it the other way round. I.e., not:
And I kithe(make known/couth to) you, that I will be [a] hold(civilized) lord and unswiking(uncheating) to God's rights(laws) and to [the] rights(laws) worldly.
but, at the very worst,
I make known ("kithe") to you, that I will be a civilized ("hold") lord and uncheating ("unswiking") to God's laws ("rights") and to the worldly laws ("rights").
I'm not coming back, because I'm afraid a potential quarrel with the creator(s) of this translation might take too long.-- 91.148.159.4 21:45, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
---- "It doesn't read good"? hmmm....
The edits as stand seem alright. But, as has already been discussed at length, the idea behind the gloss is not to be an effective translation, but a metric to help give a perspective of the extent of actual difference in the language apart from orthographic conventions. Obviously, anyone researching Old English either doesn't know what these texts are and only cares about what the language looks like, or they have already read a translation of the texts and are interested in the original language. Either way, translating the texts into good modern english prose doesn't really matter here. So if you feel that an original prose translation is called for, fine. But you should understand that it is somewhat beyond the scope of this article.-- 99.206.157.217 ( talk) 13:51, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
A couple of the links are dead, or link to websites with a lot of dead links. For example, the Absolute Beginner's Guide, if you try to use it, only has two chapters online and an invitation to buy (fine), but if you actually want to buy it the link to the store is dead.
I'm not changing anything because I'm not that Wp-savvy; but someone who knows what they're doing might want to check out the link integrity.
Quite a few of the links, I should say, I found very useful -- great article. CC. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.15.121.40 ( talk • contribs) 23:59, 4 August 2008
The Dialects section may have become garbled with this edit. This came to my attention with this recent edit. Ordinarily I would suspect an anon edit with no edit summary, but Æthelwold lived later than Alfred. Still it may not be right, for I believe it is Late West Saxon that is called Classical. Can an expert fix it? — teb728 t c 08:46, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
There were to my knowledge, two Kings called Aethelwold; one before and one after Alfred, so maybe this can clear up some confusion? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.201.82.78 ( talk) 17:17, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
In the Dialects section of the article, there's this paragraph:
Modern-day Received Pronunciation is not a direct descendant of the best-attested dialect, Late West Saxon. It is rather a descendent of a Mercian dialect — either East Mercian or South-East Mercian. Thus, Late West Saxon had little influence on the development of Modern English (by which is meant RP or some similar dialect) and the developments occurring in its antecedent, Middle English.
To treat Received Pronunciation as a dialect contradicts its own article, which states that Received Pronunciation is not a dialect, but only a pronunciation of English. As I am not a linguist, nor have I read much on linguistics or anything on this particular issue outside of Wikipedia, I do not feel comfortable making any changes myself. Laogeodritt [ Talk | Contribs ] 02:39, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
Dialects are mutually intelligible varients of a language, so RP is most definitely a dialect of English, unless of course it's not intelligible to you. Then I guess it would have to be a sister language.--
65.6.62.47 (
talk)
14:37, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
It is incorrect to use RP when discussing dialects. The writer (and the person who made the comment immediately above) presumably means Standard English'. If anyone is unclear as to the difference between an accent and a dialect, may I be permitted to use myself as an example ? I am from the North of England, but well-educated - in the State system, not in public (ie expensive) schools). In informal conversation, and perhaps in SMS messages, I use dialect words such as aye, ginnel, and nesh (yes, alley, soft). In an office meeting or when doing a presentation, or when writing a report, I sick to Standard English words. But however formally I am speaking, I never use an RP accent. RP is the accent used mostly by people (from whatever part of England) who went to public schools or want people to think they did. My accent is a mixture of Lancashire (where I was born) and Yorkshire (where I have lived for decades). For instance, for me the a in path or bath is the same as the one in gas - although I have lost the rhotic r, which is still used in Lancashire and the South West of England, but not in Yorkshire, and the long oooo in book. I am therefore a good example of someone who in formal situations uses the Standard English dialect (words and grammar) but not the RP accent (pronounciation). A literary example would be JB Priestley. Because he used Standard English, it is not possible when reading his books to discern what part of England (or Britain) he comes from ; but his northern English origin is immediately apparent when you hear a recording of his non-RP voice. Could someone please amend the article to remove the use of RP as an example of a dialect ? (Chris Jones, Sheffield, Yorkshire - 25 August 2009)
Hi, I speak a very little Old English, but quite like the language. I have posted an external link to a new (quite new) wiki that I've made concerning Old English ( [1]), and would really love some help with it. Gottistgut ( talk) 05:29, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
The section on putative Celtic influence is very short. Would it be possible to expand it at least with a list of syntactic features which can be argued to be of Celtic origin? Alternatively, if this is deemed too controversial for the main OE article, would there be any mileage in starting a separate article on theories of Celtic influence on English? -- Doric Loon ( talk) 09:06, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
Also it should be noted properly that it is a minority view. At the moment it is written in such a way that it implies that it is either a majority view or "experst be damned this is correct" but that is too be expected on Wikipedia, these days.
Edit: Note that it is very minority in regards to Old English with most (who believe such a thing) arguing that Celtic influence on the Syntax was during the Middle English stage. Sigurd Dragon Slayer ( talk) 23:22, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
I don't think it's accurate to say in the Orthography section that the various styles of writing replaced each other as if in a time line. Surely while a new style came into vogue, the others did not cease to be written and read, and different styles prevailed in different spheres of writing. It seems like it would be sufficient just to detail the most common styles of writing used in Old English manuscripts.-- 72.150.235.179 ( talk) 03:40, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
It strikes me that there is apparently no definite article in Old English - at least there is no mention of it here and in the related wiki articles. Could anyone write something about it? [revilo178 - 10.02.2009, 23:01] -- I've found it. [11.02.2009, 12:48]
Retrieved from " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Old_English_morphology" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.134.63.101 ( talk) 21:46, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
Could s.o. take a look at Ecgþeow? The IPA seemed dubious, but I can't do much better. kwami ( talk) 14:17, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
I have added a brief article on the relationship between English and Saxon with notes on the evolution of scholarly opinions about their relationship. I think it is very important for readers to be aware of the nationalistic politics involved with terms like "Old English" and "Saxon" and so on. Simply presenting the official Oxbridge view of the origins of the English language and not informing the reader that these views have changed over time is deceptive. Regarding the "Celtic" (I would use the word Gaelic) influences on English you could make the same kind of arguments: it does the reader a diservice to pretend these issues do not exist. For example, virtually all the manuscripts written in so-called "Old English" are written in insular scripts that originated in Ireland. For the purposes of this article I think it is unecessary to try to explicate all the complexities of linguistic politics involved, BUT it is important that the reader at least be made aware of them so that they know they are reading information that has been politically influenced. John Chamberlain ( talk) 22:25, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
Although there is a list of sources within the article, it is not clear from where individual sections are referenced. For instance: where is the Charter of Cnut located? It could be clearer in the article itself. Zach Beauvais ( talk) 12:02, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
Does anyone here know who was the first person to realize that Anglo-Saxon was an early form of English? John Joscelyn was the Latin secretary of Matthew Parker (b. 1504), and Parker asked him to write an Anglo-Saxon dictionary, though this was never finished. Roughly 500 years had passed between the Norman Invasion and Parker's era. By that time, English was almost in its modern form, and Old English would have seemed like a foreign language, just as it does now. There is no evidence that Joscelyn thought that the Anglo-Saxon manuscripts he studied were a form of early English. Anglo-saxon was not called "Old English" in Joscelyn's day. I think it is assumed that during the intervening 500 years, all the Anglo-Saxon manuscripts had been locked up in the monasteries and only came to the light of day after the Dissolution of the Monasteries. So if it wasn't Joscelyn, it would have been someone after him. Does anyone know who this would have been? Here's a link about Joscelyn: http://www.litencyc.com/php/speople.php?rec=true&UID=11743 HeWasCalledYClept ( talk) 21:00, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
What OE words do we use in modern language? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.201.33.75 ( talk • contribs) 20:14, 3 November 2009
When someone puts in a clarification needed tag, as I've done with the unclear statement that England was "created" in the 5th century, the proper response is either to rewrite the odd sentence so that it is clear or to put in a reference link/citation. The proper response is not simply to remove the tag without providing either clarity or a link. However, this is what User:TharkunColl has done twice. That is unfortunate. Moncrief ( talk) 04:21, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
The letter from Cnut (Canute) - as a Dane I call him Knud - is NOT from 1020, it is from 1027, when he returned from his journey to Rome, where he participated in the coronation of Conrad II. Jan Eskildsen 87.57.197.134 ( talk) 23:42, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
"It is very common for the intermixing of speakers of different dialects, such as those that occur during times of political unrest, to result in a mixed language, and one theory who? holds that exactly such a mixture of Old Norse and Old English helped accelerate the decline of case endings in Old English. citation needed"
I know that John McWhorter discusses this theory in the book "Our Magnificent Bastard Tongue: The Untold Story of English" (2008), but I am not sure if he originated it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by False dichotomy ( talk • contribs) 16:59, 10 November 2010
I can understand the value of using modern cognates of Old English words in translation so that people can easily identify word correspondences, but isn't it misleading if the modern cognate has a significantly different meaning than the Old English word? For that matter, can we really call a word like "thrum" modern, given that the last citation for it in the OED is 1450? When I take a quick look through the OED, I see that the most recent citation for all of the following words was in Middle English: gare, thede, thrum, ellen, freme, atee, frover. In the most extreme instance (ellen) the most recent citation is 1240. These are not modern cognates, but late medieval cognates of early medieval words. Would it be more useful to simply do interlinear glossing of the Old English rather than give late medieval cognates which subsequently have to be translated into Modern English? As a side note, I am using the term "modern cognate" here simply because it is what the article uses, but I personally would prefer "modern reflex" or "modern descendant." 99.231.30.19 ( talk) 00:47, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
I can't help feeling it's rather odd that the citation of Thomas Shore's book now links the author's name to ru:Шор, Томас Уильям - his article in the Russian Wikipedia. I understand why Dmitri Koshelyev (Koshelyov? I don't know where the stress is) has done this - because there is an article on him in Russian and not one in English - but I wonder if it is helpful to general readers, who may be puzzled why they have been sent to this unreadable page. No doubt the best solution is to write an English article on him, but in the meantime is this helpful? -- ColinFine ( talk) 12:12, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
"Also used occasionally were abbreviations for following m’s or n’s." In the Orthography section. It is incorrect to use apostrophes to denote plurality under any circumstances, even the plural of single letters, symbols, digits or acronyms. The correct way would be to italicise the m and n followed by an uninitialised s or vice versa. Another solution would be to reword the sentence thus: "Also used occasionally were abbreviations for following an m or an n." 86.136.153.246 ( talk) 12:40, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
According to Garner's Modern American Usage, apostrophes can be used to "mark the plural of an acronym, number, or letter..." He gives the example of "p's and q's," so for this case I believe "m's or n's" is acceptable, and is easier to read and understand. This entry was found on page 674 of the third edition if you want to verify.
I notice that the g's in "forgyf" and "forgyfaþ" on line 6 of Fæder Ūre are not marked as palatalized. They should be. I am aware that a historically velar "g" before a "y" arising from i-mutation of "u" was not palatalized, but the "y" in "gyfan" is actually historically "i" (it is a strong verb - historical strong verbs didn't get i-mutated infinitives) - I won't bother going into the details of why it was written as "y" here. Also, there are clear Middle English examples that show that it was indeed palatalized. Most likely Modern English velar "give" is due to Norse influence.
I will do the correcting edit myself in a day or two, providing no one can object to what I've said. Gott wisst ( talk) 06:32, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
I understand that the purpose of this table is to give a general overview of the changes. But it has gotten the chronology muddled a bit. Firstly, the -e of "five" was lost before the raising of unstressed e to i, because -e was lost while -i was not. Secondly, the loss of final -t occurred after the nasalisation of final -n. And according to Ringe 2006 the nasalisation happened before the change of ā to ō. The article Proto-Germanic gives a more detailed (and sourced) overview. CodeCat ( talk) 14:58, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
The sentence "Of these, all of Northumbria and most of Mercia were overrun by the Vikings during the 9th century." is not entirely accurate. The nothern part of the old Anglo-Saxon Kingdom of Northumbria seems to have allied itself (or been anexed by) the King of the Scots during this turbulent period - thus becoming in a later time Lowland Scotland (Lothian etc) . It's the reason that today's, 'Scotland' speaks English (or 'Scots'if one prefers)rather than Gaelic as the orginal Scots did. Cassandra — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.5.4.144 ( talk) 08:55, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
Only Lothian and the eastern borders were anglosaxon in language and even that's iffy (enough placename evidence to suspect a survival of the northern welsh that far east). The western lowlands were mixed Gaelic and North Welsh. 216.252.76.74 ( talk) 20:51, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
Probably true for the 9th century. However things moved on. There were large numbers of English refugees after 1066 and the Norman invasion, followed by even more refugees as a result of William's Harrowing of the North. In the next generation King David of Scotland, sponsored by Henry I, created Royal Burghs and populated them with people drawn from all parts of England. By the 16th century lowland Scots were described by one foreign visitor as speaking 'Saxon, old Teutonic, the same as in England'. Those dialects now commonly called Scots are in reality the northernmost dialects of 'Northern' or 'Northumbrian' English. Cassandra.
The first I note FIRST German king was Charlemange of the 8th century!. So old English was latin as ins Bede's writtings, to King William of 1066 the dooms day book just to name a few examples. German did not exist in the 5th century it is IMPOSSIBLE!. So please if OLD English existed before the 13th century NORMANS that brought it to England. Please show some evidence. Also northen Germany near Holstein was part of Germany Magna, and they where not part of the Roman Empire, so they where not belivers of Christ. You need to do some research and stop writing dishonest lies. Atilla the Hun went up the danube and rhine and was killed in France 454AD. Avars had bases in Hunguary and Bugaria in the 8,9th century. Who ever wrote this of low intelligence. So please show the world!. Ohh sorry I believe some else wrote some thing simlar but you keep deleting his comments. Propaganda machine is at work here — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.80.98.184 ( talk) 16:00, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
All you do is tell your lies here. Engish language did not exist until the Norman's( Orginally a tribe from Scandinavia) brought it over from present day France over sometime in the late 13th century. Facts are 1. German language did not exist until 8th century!. Why see ptolemy's maps from 2nd century AD, Germania (Mostly Roman, Christians and where latin speakers and writers, and Germania Manga which includes the area's of Schleswig-Holstein ( East and northern side, Non Christians, most likey did not speak latin). Charlemange was note: First German king in mid 8th century who started the use of the German language see Monk "Abogran". So how could these Anglo Saxon mythical tribes speak OLD ENGLISH when the German language did not exist in the 5th century its IMPOSSIBLE!. Attila the hun also traveled up the Danube and then the Rhine and was killed in Gaul (France) no where near the Angles. No Huns made it that far ever, And the later Avars around the 8th and 9th century had bases in Hungary and Bulgaria. Mongols in the 13th century also never made it to Schleswig-Holstein area. Please supply some artifacts some copies of the actual documents from 1000-1500 years ago. And shame me in front of the whole world. Also the slavic tribes see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limes_Saxoniae. Arrived in 9th century but yes all the Germanic and Germans tribes left for Britannia in the 5th century AD. My history is not the best but I believe only two unarmed Saxon tribes arrived by ship in the city of present day Wessex around 460,470AD but Saxony is near Czech Republic?. All English old documents like the dooms day book 1066, Bede the Monk, as example are in latin, all your churches before say the 16th century where all christian and later Catholic. I could go and on but you really should know better. OLD ENGLISH. Thou shall be quite now. https://www.google.com.au/search?q=germania+magna&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=VYZ5U5ziGcnikAWAsoG4DQ&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ&biw=1280&bih=684#q=magna+germania&spell=1&tbm=isch https://www.google.com.au/#q=britannia+latin+cities+names http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Latin_place_names_in_Britain ROMANS spoke and wrote in latin. SCHLESWIG HOLSTEIN WAS IN GERMANY MANGA they where not Christens like you!. OLD ENGLISH is mostly a latin based language
What's the number of speakers? -- Michael ( talk) 08:40, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
These two sentences do not seem to agree. Also, under what possible interpretation was Old English "similar" to Classical Latin? Because they both had cases and grammatical gender? 151.163.2.113 ( talk) 17:23, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
I moved this from my talk page, because others will be interested. — Eru· tuon 16:42, 29 April 2015 (UTC)
Hi, your revert to the IP's edit in the above may not be correct. The sentence begins: The only remnants of this system in Modern English are in a few pronouns (the meanings of I (nominative) my (genitive) and me (accusative/dative) in the first person provide an example).... However, the word my is an adjective, not a pronoun and the IP's change to mine is correct as it is a pronoun. Denisarona ( talk) 07:14, 28 April 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to 3 external links on
Old English. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
An editor has reviewed this edit and fixed any errors that were found.
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 12:50, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
I added the following statement in the lead:
Ajd raised a concern about this. I wanted to clarify.
Middle English is a radically different language from Old English. Old English is clearly a Germanic language, but not just because of vocabulary. The grammar, including noun declensions and verb conjugation are very clearly Germanic and very similar to modern German. This is not at all true of Middle English. Though ME preserves more of the Germanic grammar than Modern English it was still radically different from Germanic languages and in fact picked up a lot of Romance aspects of grammar, something that does not normally happen with borrowing (borrowing usually involves vocabulary, not grammar). Some linguists in fact categorize Middle/Middle English as a creole of Norman and Old English. One characteristic of a creole is that whereas its vocabulary is borrowed from its parent languages, its grammar is typically much simpler and quite different from either of the parents, something that is very true of ME. Certainly whether to classify it as a creole or not is a matter of debate within the linguistic community, the fact the Norman conquest created a radically altered language that was influenced by Norman in every aspect is not debated.
All of this was the point I was trying to make (succinctly in the lead).
--MC — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.131.2.3 ( talk) 19:48, 20 June 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Old English. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 15:34, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
This map [5] needs to be removed because it peddles the same myths about the Germanic peoples that were circulated in the 19th and early 20th centuries. For one, how can you draw such clear borders between supposed ancient "Germanic" dialects if no written record of them exists?! Also, archeological evidence show a different picture all together, with many inhabited areas referred to as "cultures' because they can't be linked with certainty to any specific group of peoples. -- E-960 ( talk) 03:53, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
The term “Anglo-Saxon” is a problematic one and it has recently fallen out of use by scholars for its adoption by racist and nationalist groups. While the term was in use during the time period, it was not used to refer to a specific ethnic group, and modern assignations are suspect, if not downright incorrect. I’ll leave the decision to those who edit the page, but a dialogue needs to be had, especially since scholars and scholarship are dropping it. I recommend referring to the language as only “Old English.” When referring to people or kingdoms, I recommend “early English,” “early Medieval English,” or “Medieval English,” and etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8800:2183:9900:8C6F:D873:E2C8:77C6 ( talk) 03:24, 7 March 2020 (UTC)
I want to get rid of the conlang "translation" for the examples, and replace them with English translations. It's ugly, confusing, and ahistorical. Gottistgut ( talk) 05:33, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
In the vowel table in the phonology section, the vowels aren't hyperlinked to the pages for the corresponding phonemes like the consonants are. Seems like an easy fix but I don't have editing access. Is there a reason why they're not linked?
2600:1700:13C1:93E0:ED6C:3C00:9DCA:9DC2 ( talk) 21:46, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
...the Angles acquired their name because their land on the coast of Jutland (now mainland Denmark) resembled a fishhook. Sorry but the homeland of the Angles is the peninsula of Anglia which is in today's Schleswig-Holstein and not in Jutland. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arndt1969 ( talk • contribs) 21:06, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
Eald english (englisċ, pronounced [ˈeŋɡliʃ]), or anglo-saxon,[1] ys the earliest recorded forme of the english language, spoken yn Engelond and southern and eastern scotland yn the early middle ages. It was brought to great britayn by anglo-saxon settlers yn the mid-5th century, and the first eald english literary works date from the mid-7th century. After the norman conquest of 1066, english was replaced, for a tyme, by anglo-norman (a relative of french) as the language of the upper classes. This ys regarded as markyng the ende of the eald english era, synce duryng this period the english language was heavily ynfluenced by anglo-norman, developyng ynto a phase known nowe as middle english yn Engelond and early scots yn scotland. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JoesephMama ( talk • contribs) 13:58, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
is /ddʒ/ (the pronunciation of <cg>) supposed to be [d͡ːʒ] or [d.d͡ʒ]? bidoof 18:20, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
Wiktionary and this article use the spelling "Englisċ", but apparently Old English Wikipedia uses "Ænglisċ". What's up with that?
I feel like Wikimedia needs to be consistent about spelling. What's the general consensus among linguists? Dennis Dartman ( talk) 01:57, 2 November 2022 (UTC)