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I've moved the heavily edited/cut N.B. from the Appalachia subsection here for discussion:
The previous version seems inaccurate according to the definition of Appalachia in Wikipedia itself, but the above version seems either unnecessary or inaccurate, too.
Other related discussion includes: Artaxerxes ( talk) 18:41, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
I think it is reasonably clear to everyone that "Old Time" generally refers to the traditional, fiddle dominated, music of North America and that it is subdivided into regional styles as the article says. What bothers me is that the MID ATLANTIC STATES are missing entirely from the discussion. Where is Pennsylvania's contributions such as collected by Samuel P. Bayard, or the music of Jehile Kirkuff? While I don't personally know much about it, surely there must also be something to say about similar music in western New York and New Jerseys pine barrens. The mid atlantic region is the bridge between Southern Appalachian Old Time and New England Old Time. Surely somebody must have something to say. DHBoggs 16:34, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
I see no mention of Mountain View, Arkansas, the self-proclaimed "Folk Music Capital of The World," or the Ozark Mountains tradition in this discussion. While I believe the style performed there most closely approximates that of Appalachia, I'd still like to know what others think. Perhaps the area is an amalgamation of the different styles, probably because many of the folk musicians who live there came from other parts of the country (or world) and brought the style with them. jtylerhenderson 13:23, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
The Arkansas State Park: Ozark Folk Center and the Hackensack Society's sole purpose is to preserve the music and cultural heritage of the Ozark Mountains. Not to mention the the Arkansas State Fiddle Championship, Old Time Fiddle Weekend, and numerous bluegrass festivals around the state. Mountain VIew was the home of Jimmy Driftwood, another individual that spent a lifetime making sure our musical heritage did not disappear. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
JaaPeeGee (
talk •
contribs)
10:25, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
Calling North Carolina and Virginia the "Non-Appalachian South" is grossly inaccurate. The Appalachian Mountains run through both states (significantly) and the Appalachian folk culture is significantly represented in both states. This section needs to be seriously revised or omitted entirely, and NC and VA should be included with the Southern Appalachian folk culture, as they are by so many members of that community.
Claire H. 6/29/2007
A bit of tweaking would make it clear that the article is referring to the piedmont regions of Virginia and North Carolina. The development of the banjo, the incorporation of African music into American music, and the interplay of piedmont and mountain music are areas that can be further developed. Steventatum ( talk) 17:37, 26 December 2007 (UTC)Steve T.
Link to: English Folk Songs from the Southern Appalachians http://www.traditionalmusic.co.uk/english-folk-songs/ Holger Terp editor, the Danish Peace Academy Adde —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.60.252.127 ( talk) 09:46, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
If this term is not synonymous with Appalachian folk music ( this kind of implies it is, then it should be explained what the difference is. I tend to think it's the same thing, and that article should be merged here. But I don't really know. Tuf-Kat 00:14, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)
I agree that 'old-time' is usually considered to be southern string-band music, from Appalachia to the Ozarks or even Oklahoma/NE Texas, but not further.
I'm also going to change 'centered on the fiddle' to 'centered on the fiddle and the banjo', since, unlike bluegrass, old-time is meant for dancing and the canonical minimum 'band' is a fiddle and a banjo.
(on edit) I also added a few lines about OT banjo styles. Katzenjammer 22:20, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
"The fiddle is sometimes played by two people at the same time, with one player using the bow and fingers, while another player stands to the side and taps out a rhythm on the fiddle strings using small sticks called fiddlesticks."
I'm suspicious of this statement - it sound like someone is making a joke. Can anyone provide other sources to corroborate it?
Gavin Gourley 12/23/05
Coming in late here as I just discovered this page, but I've created a page Fiddlesticks (musical instrument). I saw a Dewey Balfa video on YouTube, and the page has what little information I was able to find on the web. If anyone could add more that would be cool. There is a list of other YouTube videos here, in the history of the old redirect page for Fiddlesticks. -- Margin1522 ( talk) 18:53, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
The external links section is out of control. I'm removing almost all of it for now. Before you re-add a link, make certian that it meets the criteria in WP:EL. If you think we should have a list of notable artists, make sure the artist has a page, write an article, add the artist's external link to that article (e.g. Uncle Earl). Wikipedia pages are not to act as web guides. - MrFizyx 21:45, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
The link for "The Wilders" in the Contemporary Musicians section is also incorrect. Rather than linking to the Kansas City area old-time group ( http://www.wilderscountry.com/), it opens onto a discussion of a modern comic book family. Strange! APace361 16:56, 20 October 2010
I see no discussion of the great variety of other instruments associated with this style of music, to wit: spoons, jugs, bones, saws, pans, washboards, kazoos, harmonicas, whistles, cans, washtub bass, tamborines, etc. (perhaps "hollerin'" could also be considered a form of instrumentation). This might be viewed as "a tribute to the ingenuity shown by impoverished rural Blacks in expressing themselves musically on whatever they found at hand," [1] a tradition that would seem to include the banjo. That old-time music was played by other than string bands, e.g., jug bands, skiffle bands, spasm bands, etc., would not seem to dilute rather to strengthen the tradition. If this great variety of other instruments does not belong in the discussion at all, perhaps some mention should be made of why not. Artaxerxes ( talk) 23:39, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
References
Many if not all of the links at the end of this article appear to be in breach of WP:EL. Can someone with subject knowledge please take a look and remove such links. Thank you. -- HighKing ( talk) 16:08, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
Currently,
While in the year 2000 African Americans made up only eight percent of the Appalachian population[11], their numbers were greater in the 19th and early 20th centuries, due not only to the presence of slaves but also free blacks working in timber, coal mining, and other industries.
I doubt that the black population of Appalachia was ever higher than single digits- there were very, very few slaves in the mountains; the population was overwhelmingly small farmers, mostly quite poor, who couldn't begin to afford a slave. If need be I can go back to the 1850 or 60 census, but I'm pretty sure I recall correctly.
The popularity of the banjo is not really indicative of the racial composition of any area, since by the later 1800s the banjo was THE American instrument, everywhere from rude cabins to Carnegie Hall (yes, there was white-tie classical banjo!). It's rather like asserting that the prevalence of the guitar implies a heavy Spanish population.
The African-American *stylistic* elements are very definitely present. However these could well have spread by diffusion up from the Piedmont. Solicitr ( talk) 15:08, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
I don't understand why the section "Regional Styles" are below the sections of "Learning old-time music", since I think that regional styles should be dealt with more and higher importance and more closely related to the history and instrumentation of the old-music. To me, the article would be more coherent and better hung-together to place the regional styles section right below the instrumentation section, and move the learning section right below the "Festivals' section. Please tell me what you people think. Davidmjeong926 ( talk) 15:16, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
Considering there's already an existing article on Appalachia music, the subsection related to it in this article contains too much information and is unnecessarily lengthy. How about editing the subsection into shorter, more concise format? And, if necessary, the part of information that the subsection can be added to the main article Appalachian music. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.150.66.99 ( talk) 07:23, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
[Old-time_music#Texas_and_the_West] seeems to say that swing is old time. Who's the real expert on what is what with regard to that opinion? For now, citation needed. GeoBard Rap 02:48, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
If you go to edit the External Links section, you get an edit notice.
This is it:
Please prefer links which are meta-indexes or highly authoritative on account of the fact some WP editors get mad if you put too many links up- -IF YOU REMOVE ANY LINKS PLEASE PASTE THEM INTO THE TALK PAGE that way we can make sure a good resource doesn't get lost in the shuffle. We can replace the link somewhere else thanks. --
I am asking people to stick with it. Personally, I like lots of links but others won't so that is that.
Perhaps some must go?? I'd rather have talk first, deletions later. Prob'ly we are OK for now but if the section gets too big, I suggest we weed out the insrument-specific ones first. If it gets to that point.
- Geof 01:57, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
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I have changed external link to oldtimemusic.com/otdef.html. I have changed it to archive org version, as someone bought oldtimemusic.com and changed it to affiliate website. So it is no more connected to Old Time music — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mark.barkan ( talk • contribs) 07:03, 24 January 2020 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Old-time music article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I've moved the heavily edited/cut N.B. from the Appalachia subsection here for discussion:
The previous version seems inaccurate according to the definition of Appalachia in Wikipedia itself, but the above version seems either unnecessary or inaccurate, too.
Other related discussion includes: Artaxerxes ( talk) 18:41, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
I think it is reasonably clear to everyone that "Old Time" generally refers to the traditional, fiddle dominated, music of North America and that it is subdivided into regional styles as the article says. What bothers me is that the MID ATLANTIC STATES are missing entirely from the discussion. Where is Pennsylvania's contributions such as collected by Samuel P. Bayard, or the music of Jehile Kirkuff? While I don't personally know much about it, surely there must also be something to say about similar music in western New York and New Jerseys pine barrens. The mid atlantic region is the bridge between Southern Appalachian Old Time and New England Old Time. Surely somebody must have something to say. DHBoggs 16:34, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
I see no mention of Mountain View, Arkansas, the self-proclaimed "Folk Music Capital of The World," or the Ozark Mountains tradition in this discussion. While I believe the style performed there most closely approximates that of Appalachia, I'd still like to know what others think. Perhaps the area is an amalgamation of the different styles, probably because many of the folk musicians who live there came from other parts of the country (or world) and brought the style with them. jtylerhenderson 13:23, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
The Arkansas State Park: Ozark Folk Center and the Hackensack Society's sole purpose is to preserve the music and cultural heritage of the Ozark Mountains. Not to mention the the Arkansas State Fiddle Championship, Old Time Fiddle Weekend, and numerous bluegrass festivals around the state. Mountain VIew was the home of Jimmy Driftwood, another individual that spent a lifetime making sure our musical heritage did not disappear. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
JaaPeeGee (
talk •
contribs)
10:25, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
Calling North Carolina and Virginia the "Non-Appalachian South" is grossly inaccurate. The Appalachian Mountains run through both states (significantly) and the Appalachian folk culture is significantly represented in both states. This section needs to be seriously revised or omitted entirely, and NC and VA should be included with the Southern Appalachian folk culture, as they are by so many members of that community.
Claire H. 6/29/2007
A bit of tweaking would make it clear that the article is referring to the piedmont regions of Virginia and North Carolina. The development of the banjo, the incorporation of African music into American music, and the interplay of piedmont and mountain music are areas that can be further developed. Steventatum ( talk) 17:37, 26 December 2007 (UTC)Steve T.
Link to: English Folk Songs from the Southern Appalachians http://www.traditionalmusic.co.uk/english-folk-songs/ Holger Terp editor, the Danish Peace Academy Adde —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.60.252.127 ( talk) 09:46, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
If this term is not synonymous with Appalachian folk music ( this kind of implies it is, then it should be explained what the difference is. I tend to think it's the same thing, and that article should be merged here. But I don't really know. Tuf-Kat 00:14, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)
I agree that 'old-time' is usually considered to be southern string-band music, from Appalachia to the Ozarks or even Oklahoma/NE Texas, but not further.
I'm also going to change 'centered on the fiddle' to 'centered on the fiddle and the banjo', since, unlike bluegrass, old-time is meant for dancing and the canonical minimum 'band' is a fiddle and a banjo.
(on edit) I also added a few lines about OT banjo styles. Katzenjammer 22:20, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
"The fiddle is sometimes played by two people at the same time, with one player using the bow and fingers, while another player stands to the side and taps out a rhythm on the fiddle strings using small sticks called fiddlesticks."
I'm suspicious of this statement - it sound like someone is making a joke. Can anyone provide other sources to corroborate it?
Gavin Gourley 12/23/05
Coming in late here as I just discovered this page, but I've created a page Fiddlesticks (musical instrument). I saw a Dewey Balfa video on YouTube, and the page has what little information I was able to find on the web. If anyone could add more that would be cool. There is a list of other YouTube videos here, in the history of the old redirect page for Fiddlesticks. -- Margin1522 ( talk) 18:53, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
The external links section is out of control. I'm removing almost all of it for now. Before you re-add a link, make certian that it meets the criteria in WP:EL. If you think we should have a list of notable artists, make sure the artist has a page, write an article, add the artist's external link to that article (e.g. Uncle Earl). Wikipedia pages are not to act as web guides. - MrFizyx 21:45, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
The link for "The Wilders" in the Contemporary Musicians section is also incorrect. Rather than linking to the Kansas City area old-time group ( http://www.wilderscountry.com/), it opens onto a discussion of a modern comic book family. Strange! APace361 16:56, 20 October 2010
I see no discussion of the great variety of other instruments associated with this style of music, to wit: spoons, jugs, bones, saws, pans, washboards, kazoos, harmonicas, whistles, cans, washtub bass, tamborines, etc. (perhaps "hollerin'" could also be considered a form of instrumentation). This might be viewed as "a tribute to the ingenuity shown by impoverished rural Blacks in expressing themselves musically on whatever they found at hand," [1] a tradition that would seem to include the banjo. That old-time music was played by other than string bands, e.g., jug bands, skiffle bands, spasm bands, etc., would not seem to dilute rather to strengthen the tradition. If this great variety of other instruments does not belong in the discussion at all, perhaps some mention should be made of why not. Artaxerxes ( talk) 23:39, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
References
Many if not all of the links at the end of this article appear to be in breach of WP:EL. Can someone with subject knowledge please take a look and remove such links. Thank you. -- HighKing ( talk) 16:08, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
Currently,
While in the year 2000 African Americans made up only eight percent of the Appalachian population[11], their numbers were greater in the 19th and early 20th centuries, due not only to the presence of slaves but also free blacks working in timber, coal mining, and other industries.
I doubt that the black population of Appalachia was ever higher than single digits- there were very, very few slaves in the mountains; the population was overwhelmingly small farmers, mostly quite poor, who couldn't begin to afford a slave. If need be I can go back to the 1850 or 60 census, but I'm pretty sure I recall correctly.
The popularity of the banjo is not really indicative of the racial composition of any area, since by the later 1800s the banjo was THE American instrument, everywhere from rude cabins to Carnegie Hall (yes, there was white-tie classical banjo!). It's rather like asserting that the prevalence of the guitar implies a heavy Spanish population.
The African-American *stylistic* elements are very definitely present. However these could well have spread by diffusion up from the Piedmont. Solicitr ( talk) 15:08, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
I don't understand why the section "Regional Styles" are below the sections of "Learning old-time music", since I think that regional styles should be dealt with more and higher importance and more closely related to the history and instrumentation of the old-music. To me, the article would be more coherent and better hung-together to place the regional styles section right below the instrumentation section, and move the learning section right below the "Festivals' section. Please tell me what you people think. Davidmjeong926 ( talk) 15:16, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
Considering there's already an existing article on Appalachia music, the subsection related to it in this article contains too much information and is unnecessarily lengthy. How about editing the subsection into shorter, more concise format? And, if necessary, the part of information that the subsection can be added to the main article Appalachian music. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.150.66.99 ( talk) 07:23, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
[Old-time_music#Texas_and_the_West] seeems to say that swing is old time. Who's the real expert on what is what with regard to that opinion? For now, citation needed. GeoBard Rap 02:48, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
If you go to edit the External Links section, you get an edit notice.
This is it:
Please prefer links which are meta-indexes or highly authoritative on account of the fact some WP editors get mad if you put too many links up- -IF YOU REMOVE ANY LINKS PLEASE PASTE THEM INTO THE TALK PAGE that way we can make sure a good resource doesn't get lost in the shuffle. We can replace the link somewhere else thanks. --
I am asking people to stick with it. Personally, I like lots of links but others won't so that is that.
Perhaps some must go?? I'd rather have talk first, deletions later. Prob'ly we are OK for now but if the section gets too big, I suggest we weed out the insrument-specific ones first. If it gets to that point.
- Geof 01:57, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
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I have changed external link to oldtimemusic.com/otdef.html. I have changed it to archive org version, as someone bought oldtimemusic.com and changed it to affiliate website. So it is no more connected to Old Time music — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mark.barkan ( talk • contribs) 07:03, 24 January 2020 (UTC)