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I think that there is a little pov in this part of the article. "When the Spanish missionaries arrived, they herded the Ohlones into missions, where they were decimated by European disease and overwork." I know this was what happend, I just dont think the word "herded" is the best word. I would like to say Sory for not posting in the talk page the first time. I was Sleep Deprived. -- Quinwound 17:53, Mar 9, 2004 (UTC)
Their principal food was acorns, which they collected from the oak trees. ( User:LegCircus; sig added by Jmabel)
To be clear on this oak trees are native to the SF Peninsula. Most were cut down for tannic acid. RWC was a big tannery center until the 1930s. There are a few old maps (Spanish/Pre-Mexican Rule) that showed the large acreage of oaks. Menlo Park was mostly oak at one time, but now the have to fight for every tree. It's also on the town logo. meatclerk 04:29, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Very nice map. My applause! — ishwar (SPEAK) 23:51, 2005 Apr 13 (UTC)
The Costanoans do not all identify with the name "Ohlone", which actually designated a specific tribe or triblet that occupied land on the Pacific Coast west of the southern end of San Francisco Bay (see A Time of Little Choice by R. Milliken). I have had discussions with Costanoan people from the Monterey Bay area and from the north bay who are irritated by the lack of geographical and cultural discrimination reflected by the use of "Ohlone" as a comprehensive name for the entire language and its speakers. They are generally content with "Costanoan" which is a broad term that does not single out a specific smaller political unit at the expense of others.
The careless use of words like Oholone and Costano reveals the general confusion and ignorance surrounding the history and culture of San Mateo (County) Indians, (...)
South of Half Moon Bay, (...) Father Juan Crespi (...) describes the local Olxan (Ohlone) villages ...
I'm ready to label this unreliable. In addition, the reference "The Ohlone Way" is also unreliable. There is plenty of good information to show the errors on this article, but I don't have the time to fix it. Hence, the label. Anyone else? meatclerk 04:35, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Sorry Guys, the nature of what we know about Ohlone/Costanos is conflicting. Hence, the newest addition from User:Goldenrowley is conflicting at best. He uses Cook's numbers (1976), which if memory serves are conflicting from Kroeber (around 1911). In any case, the numbers Golderowley are incorrect. They should be about 18,000.
Pulled section:
"
The Population of the California Indians, 1769-1970
If anyone wants to fix the numbers with my notes, feel free. meatclerk 07:39, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Sorry we must be using different books (meatcleark?) I can't find those passages in the book I have on those pages and they are different ISBN's. But since 1 and 2 are from the same author, I can only assume your Notes from book 1 were for another year and another area of research. here is a not-so-quick verification:
SOURCE 1 COOK "NOTES" on " ISBN 0-520-02923-2"
I am not following the notes. In what year were there a "maximum" of 18,000 people? It seems possibly only in respects to San Mateo County? I suspect 18,000 is a much later count than the basis year I gave of 1770. I can assume this as follows: the notes given here say 18,330 is a "maximum derived" by baptisms. baptisms only took place after the missions were built but before they folded, so lets say Cook did a count somewhere between 1790 and 1840. Plus is this a count of all baptisms at the Mission, which also housed Pomo, MIwok, etc who were relocated and living there? did one remember divide out and just count the Costanoans for this article?
SOURCE 2 COOK "tHE CONFLICT" ISBN 0-520-03143-1 (from me Goldenrowley)
SOURCE 3 CARTIER
I have never helped verify records before for Wiki, my suggestion is that in the document we qualify the word "estimated 10,000" with the words "in 1770" and in the Population table, simply add that "these figures estimated by Shelburne Cook, 1976."
Goldenrowley 03:22, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
The Millekin book, [
ISBN 0879191317] is particularly useful, drawing upon baptismal and death records of the Bay Area Missions.
BruceHallman
15:43, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Can someon verify the tribal entities please? The fact that Karkin were at first counted as Ohlone, according to this article, but are really Miwok, as admitted later on in the article, although just 200 people, makes me wonder if the tribal info is trustworthy. I think the tribal entities could thefore use a footnote source. In this case I can not help Shelburne Cook says nothing on the matter. By the way, I would also like to know because it will help the Miwok page out.... Goldenrowley 03:30, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
The Karkin absolutely spoke an Ohlonean language, not a Miwok language. Arroyo de la Cuesta got a vocabulary in the late 1700's.
See the following:
Beeler, M., 1961, Northern Costanoan, International Journal of American Linguistics, 27: 191-197. Callaghan, Catherine, 1988. Karkin Revisited. IJAL 54: 436-452. Levy, Richard. 1978. Costanoan. Handbook of North American Indians, Vol. 8: California. 485-495.
You might be thinking of Saclan, which did turn out to be a Miwokan language.
--Anonymous, 9/20/06
I verified and corrected and copy edited tonight. What it seemed to need the most was softening its position and not sound so absolute if it did not know something for a fact (plus all the added sources). I think it's much better. I took the initiative to remove the verify flag. I suggest if there are elements that need further verification to enter {{fact}} on the statements to check, just as I have left one on population. Goldenrowley 09:28, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
After just reading the Milliken book I have a hard time reconcilling 'did not act jointly' sentence, especially considering the documented evidence of inter-village marriage. Also, to say 'unlike other tribes in North America' seems far far too broad. BruceHallman 16:06, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
That's just the first paragraph. Some quick notes on the rest.
Any comments? meatclerk 18:41, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Sorry all, I think I did get carried away with the points, but this is my vacation and I have more time to think and write. Also I wrote Kroeger, when I meant Kroeber.
Anyhow, I've re-read parts of "Handbook of ..." Kroeber/1925, "The Population ..." Cook/1976, "A Time of Little Choice" Milliken/1995, "Lands of Promise..." Ed. Beebe /2001, all the La Peninsula (San Mateo County Historical Association) articles about Costanoan (1968/1970/1973/1979), and tons more... I'm in the middle of organizing the material into folders and notes. All this before I go and look for a reference on village names. Milliken says "Merriam, C. Hart" has village and rancheria names from Mission records, 1968 and 1970 (pg. 343). In any case, if I don't find it I am going to Berkeley on Thursday. I plan to look at the diseños for "Las Pulgas" and "Rancho Raymundo". The last is for my work on Redwood City and Menlo Park Indians.
With that, I note (at this time) my folder names include:
The real difficulty is that most historian are clumping together all regional indians into one class and one culture.
Diverging from that, my main topic of research is salmon. I'm trying to find out if salmon ever ran on the bay side of the peninsula. I plenty of evidence for the coastside, North of SF (San Pablo Bay ), the Carquinez straits, the eastbay (Oakland, hayward, fremont), even San Jose, but the bayside is going to be difficult. Part of the problems is pre-gold rush the missionaries built aquaducts, then post-gold rush includes sawmills, then local gentry estates that included damming local streams, then dairy farms damming, then finally the SF Water hoarding, from 1870 to post-1906 earthquake.
To finish off, I think I want to start putting in tribe names from Milliken, then later village names from Merriam. Then perhaps move on to terms? What do you think? meatclerk 08:49, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Later tonight or tommorrow, I plan to scan and post for review from two (2) books.
Later tonight I plan to scan many pages and put them up for you to read, including a section on minerals and myths. As per your last question on language, I am reading that Kroeber, who wrote the widely quoted, "Handbook on California Indians", was more than a bit lazy.
In the book Handbook on California Indians, Kroeber writes, that except for a handful of tribes, most of the work was a summary of other works - Bancroft, Powell and others.
In the book Indian Names for Plants & Animals amoung California and other north west tribes, the editor describes an ongoing silent fued between - J. P. Harrington & C. H. Merriam <-and-> Kroeber. The former two (2) disliked Kroeber so much, they would often follow him around to verify his work - checking on errors. The two (2) were "loaner"s, neither were "ethnologist" or "linguists". Their work was frequently chided as "amatureish", but Merriam was studying as a naturalist, so his work seem difficent to them, but I see issues with Merriam's work too.
Nonetheless, Robert F. Heizer seems to have been caretaker of his remaining, and unfinished work. Hence, much of his work follows Merriam. As such, I'm not sure where Levy, Englhart, Cook and Milliken fit in.
To answer your original question: Milliken says Utian, via Handbook of North American Indians Shipley/1978; editor R. F. Heizer... See the connection now? meatclerk 05:40, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
Okay, these are the totals:
By the numbers you can see this will take a while, which I noted to myself earlier today. To get you started I have scanned in the page on myths. After that, if you don't feel like doing anything else, just say so.
myths, see The Indian As A Geologist pagescan
Jeremey, your thoroughness is great. I will help this page a little at a time, why did not they just list the tribes rather than lump them together 100 years ago. My top priority this week is sorting the decorative arts out. I put a lot of my thoughts above, right after Bruce's. Goldenrowley 17:04, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
To date, without exception all population estimates (pre-1849) are based on existing Mission records, birth, baptism, marriage and death. The state and completeness of such records vary. In the last section I stated, "In some places, like SF it was great..". Of this, I was speaking about Mission record collection in general.
I should make clear that these statements are based on incomplete readings of Milliken and others. None the less, it is quite clear that early on when Fages and Fonts were at Mission Dolores records were kept quite clear, but as time passed other missionaries were not as careful. They kept detail information, including the village of origin (my interest). However, as time passed other missionaries were not as clear, not as complete. Different factors may have influenced this, including epidemics.
Other Mission, like Santa Clara, only listed regions of origin. For instance, San Bernadino was the area North of the mission, upto San Fransquito Creek and to the ridges of Santa Cruz Mountains, even though groups like the Olpen crossed over. Again this is all in the area of my interest. Other records from other missions vary, but it is said similar problems occur.
Of course, I did not mention simple clerical errors, like spelling. A large problem for ethnohistorians and linguist has been the varied spelling on different name. Personally I have seen about 6-8 different spelling for the now conventinal Ohlone. Does this help? -- meatclerk 20:00, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
The information is essentially correct. It was one of many reasons I labeled the article as unreliable. At best, the new entry might be labeled citation needed. -- meatclerk 01:29, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
....I am afraid our discussion is getting long for people just joining so I'd like to put my book reports at the very top this page as a useful review for others, rather than last year stuff, ok? I know it's not my finer writing, but it's neutral. Goldenrowley 02:04, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
First, yes the page is getting too long, even for me. So I suggest, except for the first section - your booknotes, everything above this should be archived. I think we discussed two or three topics to dead, and at best some notes on the concencess (sp?). Does this sound good?
On the outline, today I went to the library looking for a good source for an outline. The California Historical Society Quarterly (articles from 1922-1961) seems to have a good breakdown, but we might merge a few. The heading relate to all California indians. Here are the section (alphabeticly):
Also worth noting
Now, I should say this as an outline would take about 2 years or more, but the benefit is that much of it is already written. True much of it is old, but some (like treaties) we (we being me and the rat in my pocket) may just never get to it. In any case, it's just an idea. Your thoughts?
Lastly, I have no real problem traveling with my bike. The train will get me along the peninsula, then most places have regular bus service, even Half Moon Bay. BART I can catch in Fremont or the SF Airport, if need be. -- meatclerk 07:07, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
I think that there is a little pov in this part of the article. "When the Spanish missionaries arrived, they herded the Ohlones into missions, where they were decimated by European disease and overwork." I know this was what happend, I just dont think the word "herded" is the best word. I would like to say Sory for not posting in the talk page the first time. I was Sleep Deprived. -- Quinwound 17:53, Mar 9, 2004 (UTC)
Their principal food was acorns, which they collected from the oak trees. ( User:LegCircus; sig added by Jmabel)
To be clear on this oak trees are native to the SF Peninsula. Most were cut down for tannic acid. RWC was a big tannery center until the 1930s. There are a few old maps (Spanish/Pre-Mexican Rule) that showed the large acreage of oaks. Menlo Park was mostly oak at one time, but now the have to fight for every tree. It's also on the town logo. meatclerk 04:29, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Very nice map. My applause! — ishwar (SPEAK) 23:51, 2005 Apr 13 (UTC)
The Costanoans do not all identify with the name "Ohlone", which actually designated a specific tribe or triblet that occupied land on the Pacific Coast west of the southern end of San Francisco Bay (see A Time of Little Choice by R. Milliken). I have had discussions with Costanoan people from the Monterey Bay area and from the north bay who are irritated by the lack of geographical and cultural discrimination reflected by the use of "Ohlone" as a comprehensive name for the entire language and its speakers. They are generally content with "Costanoan" which is a broad term that does not single out a specific smaller political unit at the expense of others.
The careless use of words like Oholone and Costano reveals the general confusion and ignorance surrounding the history and culture of San Mateo (County) Indians, (...)
South of Half Moon Bay, (...) Father Juan Crespi (...) describes the local Olxan (Ohlone) villages ...
I'm ready to label this unreliable. In addition, the reference "The Ohlone Way" is also unreliable. There is plenty of good information to show the errors on this article, but I don't have the time to fix it. Hence, the label. Anyone else? meatclerk 04:35, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Sorry Guys, the nature of what we know about Ohlone/Costanos is conflicting. Hence, the newest addition from User:Goldenrowley is conflicting at best. He uses Cook's numbers (1976), which if memory serves are conflicting from Kroeber (around 1911). In any case, the numbers Golderowley are incorrect. They should be about 18,000.
Pulled section:
"
The Population of the California Indians, 1769-1970
If anyone wants to fix the numbers with my notes, feel free. meatclerk 07:39, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Sorry we must be using different books (meatcleark?) I can't find those passages in the book I have on those pages and they are different ISBN's. But since 1 and 2 are from the same author, I can only assume your Notes from book 1 were for another year and another area of research. here is a not-so-quick verification:
SOURCE 1 COOK "NOTES" on " ISBN 0-520-02923-2"
I am not following the notes. In what year were there a "maximum" of 18,000 people? It seems possibly only in respects to San Mateo County? I suspect 18,000 is a much later count than the basis year I gave of 1770. I can assume this as follows: the notes given here say 18,330 is a "maximum derived" by baptisms. baptisms only took place after the missions were built but before they folded, so lets say Cook did a count somewhere between 1790 and 1840. Plus is this a count of all baptisms at the Mission, which also housed Pomo, MIwok, etc who were relocated and living there? did one remember divide out and just count the Costanoans for this article?
SOURCE 2 COOK "tHE CONFLICT" ISBN 0-520-03143-1 (from me Goldenrowley)
SOURCE 3 CARTIER
I have never helped verify records before for Wiki, my suggestion is that in the document we qualify the word "estimated 10,000" with the words "in 1770" and in the Population table, simply add that "these figures estimated by Shelburne Cook, 1976."
Goldenrowley 03:22, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
The Millekin book, [
ISBN 0879191317] is particularly useful, drawing upon baptismal and death records of the Bay Area Missions.
BruceHallman
15:43, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Can someon verify the tribal entities please? The fact that Karkin were at first counted as Ohlone, according to this article, but are really Miwok, as admitted later on in the article, although just 200 people, makes me wonder if the tribal info is trustworthy. I think the tribal entities could thefore use a footnote source. In this case I can not help Shelburne Cook says nothing on the matter. By the way, I would also like to know because it will help the Miwok page out.... Goldenrowley 03:30, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
The Karkin absolutely spoke an Ohlonean language, not a Miwok language. Arroyo de la Cuesta got a vocabulary in the late 1700's.
See the following:
Beeler, M., 1961, Northern Costanoan, International Journal of American Linguistics, 27: 191-197. Callaghan, Catherine, 1988. Karkin Revisited. IJAL 54: 436-452. Levy, Richard. 1978. Costanoan. Handbook of North American Indians, Vol. 8: California. 485-495.
You might be thinking of Saclan, which did turn out to be a Miwokan language.
--Anonymous, 9/20/06
I verified and corrected and copy edited tonight. What it seemed to need the most was softening its position and not sound so absolute if it did not know something for a fact (plus all the added sources). I think it's much better. I took the initiative to remove the verify flag. I suggest if there are elements that need further verification to enter {{fact}} on the statements to check, just as I have left one on population. Goldenrowley 09:28, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
After just reading the Milliken book I have a hard time reconcilling 'did not act jointly' sentence, especially considering the documented evidence of inter-village marriage. Also, to say 'unlike other tribes in North America' seems far far too broad. BruceHallman 16:06, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
That's just the first paragraph. Some quick notes on the rest.
Any comments? meatclerk 18:41, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Sorry all, I think I did get carried away with the points, but this is my vacation and I have more time to think and write. Also I wrote Kroeger, when I meant Kroeber.
Anyhow, I've re-read parts of "Handbook of ..." Kroeber/1925, "The Population ..." Cook/1976, "A Time of Little Choice" Milliken/1995, "Lands of Promise..." Ed. Beebe /2001, all the La Peninsula (San Mateo County Historical Association) articles about Costanoan (1968/1970/1973/1979), and tons more... I'm in the middle of organizing the material into folders and notes. All this before I go and look for a reference on village names. Milliken says "Merriam, C. Hart" has village and rancheria names from Mission records, 1968 and 1970 (pg. 343). In any case, if I don't find it I am going to Berkeley on Thursday. I plan to look at the diseños for "Las Pulgas" and "Rancho Raymundo". The last is for my work on Redwood City and Menlo Park Indians.
With that, I note (at this time) my folder names include:
The real difficulty is that most historian are clumping together all regional indians into one class and one culture.
Diverging from that, my main topic of research is salmon. I'm trying to find out if salmon ever ran on the bay side of the peninsula. I plenty of evidence for the coastside, North of SF (San Pablo Bay ), the Carquinez straits, the eastbay (Oakland, hayward, fremont), even San Jose, but the bayside is going to be difficult. Part of the problems is pre-gold rush the missionaries built aquaducts, then post-gold rush includes sawmills, then local gentry estates that included damming local streams, then dairy farms damming, then finally the SF Water hoarding, from 1870 to post-1906 earthquake.
To finish off, I think I want to start putting in tribe names from Milliken, then later village names from Merriam. Then perhaps move on to terms? What do you think? meatclerk 08:49, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Later tonight or tommorrow, I plan to scan and post for review from two (2) books.
Later tonight I plan to scan many pages and put them up for you to read, including a section on minerals and myths. As per your last question on language, I am reading that Kroeber, who wrote the widely quoted, "Handbook on California Indians", was more than a bit lazy.
In the book Handbook on California Indians, Kroeber writes, that except for a handful of tribes, most of the work was a summary of other works - Bancroft, Powell and others.
In the book Indian Names for Plants & Animals amoung California and other north west tribes, the editor describes an ongoing silent fued between - J. P. Harrington & C. H. Merriam <-and-> Kroeber. The former two (2) disliked Kroeber so much, they would often follow him around to verify his work - checking on errors. The two (2) were "loaner"s, neither were "ethnologist" or "linguists". Their work was frequently chided as "amatureish", but Merriam was studying as a naturalist, so his work seem difficent to them, but I see issues with Merriam's work too.
Nonetheless, Robert F. Heizer seems to have been caretaker of his remaining, and unfinished work. Hence, much of his work follows Merriam. As such, I'm not sure where Levy, Englhart, Cook and Milliken fit in.
To answer your original question: Milliken says Utian, via Handbook of North American Indians Shipley/1978; editor R. F. Heizer... See the connection now? meatclerk 05:40, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
Okay, these are the totals:
By the numbers you can see this will take a while, which I noted to myself earlier today. To get you started I have scanned in the page on myths. After that, if you don't feel like doing anything else, just say so.
myths, see The Indian As A Geologist pagescan
Jeremey, your thoroughness is great. I will help this page a little at a time, why did not they just list the tribes rather than lump them together 100 years ago. My top priority this week is sorting the decorative arts out. I put a lot of my thoughts above, right after Bruce's. Goldenrowley 17:04, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
To date, without exception all population estimates (pre-1849) are based on existing Mission records, birth, baptism, marriage and death. The state and completeness of such records vary. In the last section I stated, "In some places, like SF it was great..". Of this, I was speaking about Mission record collection in general.
I should make clear that these statements are based on incomplete readings of Milliken and others. None the less, it is quite clear that early on when Fages and Fonts were at Mission Dolores records were kept quite clear, but as time passed other missionaries were not as careful. They kept detail information, including the village of origin (my interest). However, as time passed other missionaries were not as clear, not as complete. Different factors may have influenced this, including epidemics.
Other Mission, like Santa Clara, only listed regions of origin. For instance, San Bernadino was the area North of the mission, upto San Fransquito Creek and to the ridges of Santa Cruz Mountains, even though groups like the Olpen crossed over. Again this is all in the area of my interest. Other records from other missions vary, but it is said similar problems occur.
Of course, I did not mention simple clerical errors, like spelling. A large problem for ethnohistorians and linguist has been the varied spelling on different name. Personally I have seen about 6-8 different spelling for the now conventinal Ohlone. Does this help? -- meatclerk 20:00, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
The information is essentially correct. It was one of many reasons I labeled the article as unreliable. At best, the new entry might be labeled citation needed. -- meatclerk 01:29, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
....I am afraid our discussion is getting long for people just joining so I'd like to put my book reports at the very top this page as a useful review for others, rather than last year stuff, ok? I know it's not my finer writing, but it's neutral. Goldenrowley 02:04, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
First, yes the page is getting too long, even for me. So I suggest, except for the first section - your booknotes, everything above this should be archived. I think we discussed two or three topics to dead, and at best some notes on the concencess (sp?). Does this sound good?
On the outline, today I went to the library looking for a good source for an outline. The California Historical Society Quarterly (articles from 1922-1961) seems to have a good breakdown, but we might merge a few. The heading relate to all California indians. Here are the section (alphabeticly):
Also worth noting
Now, I should say this as an outline would take about 2 years or more, but the benefit is that much of it is already written. True much of it is old, but some (like treaties) we (we being me and the rat in my pocket) may just never get to it. In any case, it's just an idea. Your thoughts?
Lastly, I have no real problem traveling with my bike. The train will get me along the peninsula, then most places have regular bus service, even Half Moon Bay. BART I can catch in Fremont or the SF Airport, if need be. -- meatclerk 07:07, 4 October 2006 (UTC)