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I'm new to wikipedia. Bayantree I would appreciate if you told me how to make constructive changes to this article. Because it is extremely filled with bias view. I want to make changes I don't know how to contact you to tell you all the things wrong with this article. In fact there are just too many to mention. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mkfarah ( talk • contribs) 01:49, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
User:Mkfarah removed the {{ WikiProject Terrorism}} template from this talk page. I think this should have been mentioned either on this page, or in the edit summary. Having said that, I'm not sure the ONLF article qualifies for inclusion (without even getting into problems with the term "terrorism" itself). From what I can tell, inclusion in WikiProject Terrorism is based on an article being listed at List of designated terrorist organizations. That list, in turn, cites MIPT Terrorism Knowledge Base as its source. But that web site indicates that the ONLF has not been designated a terrorist group by the US, the UK, the EU, Canada, Australia, or Russia. But the WikiProject's threshold for inclusion is not clear to me, so as of right now, I don't have a problem if this article is not included. (And I guess I should mention that I'm only referring to the article, and not my own views about the group itself, which do not belong here in any case.) -- Gyrofrog (talk) 14:29, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm very concerned about the neutrality of this article. It is EXTREMELY unevenhanded. There are a lot of so-called external sources missing. The anti-ONLF sources all seem to be Ethiopian Goverment websites and/or known affiliates thereof. There is an extreme lack of historical content. A particular "source" that I visited actually wasn't even a report it was a bloc. This is utterly disturbing. I'm challenging the neutrality of this page because it is clearly anti-ONLF and PRO-TPLF. There is no mention that the ONLF was a participant in the june 1991 conference in Addis Ababa that saw the transitional charter come to effect. There is no mention that the TPLF (EPRDF) stormed the town of gabri dahar in 1995 killing 81 people in their vein attemt to assasinate the ONLF political leadership. There isn't a mention that the so called Ethiopia constitution provides the framework for a political referendum to see succession but that the TPLF has steadfast denied the people of the Somali State to exercise that right. Furthermore, all of the TPLF's claims seem to be repeated in this article as being confirmed/true and the ONLF's claims are labelled as "allegation" "accusations" etc. This is dangerous manipulation of the English language. This article needs SERIOUS SERIOUS reworking. I'm going to work on it. And let you folks judge the difference Mkfarah 01:38, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
74.210.98.82 09:21, 23 October 2007 (UTC):::BAnyantree i would gladly contribute to this article but I don't have much time. I see that i'm competing with full-time TPLF agents probably working from Mekelle. I is clearly bias. There is no doubt about it. I could give Phd Thesis, books online essays, news article, all CREDIBLE AND REAL sources including the new york times, LA times, Voice of America, BBC, doctors without borders, UN, OHRC, Human Rights Watch, Red Cross, Newsweek Mag, etc etc. But who cares about these sources right we have Washington based lobbyist Peter Pham to speak for the TPLF and HE is cited as the "credible" source. There is no mention of the ethnic cleansing that's going on in the Ogaden, there is no mention of the TPLF's occupation of Badme, a UN declared Eritrean village, No mention of the TPLF invasion and occupation of a sovereign state. In the article it's said as "Ethiopia's entry into the conflict in Somalia" So i figured I can't spare nearly as much time so i'd just let people know that it's lies. Everything in this article is a lie. If you don't believe what i'm saying go visit the articles about the following groups and you'll see a common trend: Coalition for unity and democracy, Oromo Liberation Front, Ethiopian people's patriotic front, ARDUF, tigray people democratic movement, Union of islamic courts, and much more. You'll discover that TPLF agents sit on their monitors all day and night and spread this bullshit propaganda all over the web. It's part of new "information ministry's" program of western deception. Go to youtube and what i'm saying to you will become evident. I mean by western standard we're more media literate and you'll be able to tell that it's staged propaganda. i just wanna put it out there that this article is a lie. it's pretty late. 74.210.98.82 09:21, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
This article contains contaminited stories that are not true. For instance reference (12-16) to the section " Ogadenia confusion" has nothing to do what have been writting in the section. It's not Somalis belonging to the Ogaden-clan or ONLF this matter who nnamed the region "Ogaden". The region was called Ogaden well before the Abbassian occupeid. The person who wrote this section called it "southeast Ethiopia" and thereby he/she what been writting in history books. This section bee deleted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anfaal ( talk • contribs) 22:42, 29 October 2007
One thing I'd like to add, speaking as a frequent contributor to articles about Ethiopia & the neighboring countries, is that I frequently fall back to quoting TPLF (& Ethiopian official) sources is not because I believe them uncritically (although in some cases I do) but because I can't find anything else that fits under Wikipedia's guidelines. We need a source that anyone else can examine to support assertions in Wikipedia articles: books, magazine articles, websites, etc. I know that there are other sources out there, but due to limits on my time, I can't always examine them, let alone know that they exist. I also know that in some cases the material does not exist in the West, so I try to be understanding & lenient. If you care about the subject, please help identify these sources & bring them to our attention -- either by linking to them in the article, or posting about them here. Or even better, try to help integrate that information into the article, while leaving a pointer to where someone else can find it. -- llywrch 23:15, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
Gyrofrog: Thanks for your wise comment. And i'm sorry that have violate the rule of the wikipedia by remove the hole section, i was not aware that rule. I now have edited and I assume that eding is allowed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anfaal ( talk • contribs) 20:16, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
While I doubt the article is perfect, failing to list TPLF actions / mistakes isn't a concern for this article. I've removed the NPOV template, please use {{POV-section}} for sections or {{POV-statement}} for problematic sentences, then please detail issues here. This will help address them in a timely manner. - Roy Boy 03:42, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
This edit has been added twice and reverted twice, by Gyrofrog and myself. The problems, as I see it, are:
The user in question states, "There are some things that are so obvious that people don't have to give a list of hard reference for them," which is directly addressed in the core policy Wikipedia:Verifiability: "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth." If you can't provide a backing citation when challenged, you can't include it, even if it's obviously true. - Banyan Tree 05:28, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
I would have liked to finish discussing with that one person (Gyrofrog) to get his response for my last comment so that it won't go back and forth. I would like to have Gyrofrog's response to my comment. As you can see these articles { Ethiopia, Eritrea, Somalia, Kenya etc etc} they virtually have paragraphs and paragraphes and paragraphes of unreferenced statements. (PLEASE CHECK THEM and THOUSANDS OF OTHER AFRICAN ARTICLES) I think you would need a few days or few weeks to clean all that up (search refences for every SINGLE unreferenced statements on endless number of African articles) if you are going to say obvious statements need extensive references. As i explained in my talk page by giving an example, it is obvious America is not in a war with Canada today. Such things (that USA and Canada are not currently in a bloody war) are so obvious that i can promise not to force you to add a reference to write that statement. For us Africans, we ALSO have obvious facts here and there that all sides don't even dispute at all because, again, it is just so obvious.
You also said "Why exactly does an Ethiopian separatist group need to take a policy stance on the situation in another country?" MY ANSWER: you obviously need to check more about the topic because the ONLF says its people are not Ethiopians, they are Ogaden group who are "colonized" by Ethiopians. Please look up anywhere online to find this other obvious thing or randomly pick any African to tell you since this is a given. So in case you don't know, ONLF is fighting to liberate Ogaden people, which happen to live in both Ethiopia and Kenya. I hope i answered your question. Again, we would need to re-write or delete virtually thousands of thousands of African articles on Wikipedia if "backing citation" is needed in every single African sentence. I hope you understand. Please don't move this discussion to another page again so we don't have to keep starting discussion from scratch. Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.107.104.209 ( talk) 05:49, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
"I don't know where you are getting this 'Ogaden includes Kenya' bit, as one would think that would be included in the Ogaden article" YOU see, if you were reading the discussions and the statements and reference BEFORE YOU REVERT, you would have realized the fact that Ogadens are in Kenya is starring you in your face!! http://www.geocities.com/~dagmawi/Zebenya/pics/Somalia_clan_map.jpg <<--- A reference i provided THREE REVERTS AGO! By the way, i hope you are not purposely trying to annoy me!! I don't want a citation that Canada is not in war with USA. EVERYBODY KNOWS THAT!! Just like everyone knows that ONLF IS NOT IN WAR WITH KENYA!! Hey, i heard some claim George Bush is not a woman!! Find a reference that proves that he is not a woman! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.107.104.209 ( talk) 06:13, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
From my examination of this website, American Chronicle is not a reliable source, for simple reason that they will publish anything with minimal editorial review. My opinion is supported the consensus formed by this discussion in Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Spam. The material I have removed includes:
A lot of the footnotes need to be refactored; a more careful reading shows that at least one source is cited multiple times under slightly different titles. Sheesh, someone has been busy making tendentious edits. :-( llywrch ( talk) 16:46, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
Why is there any mention of Ahmed Shirwa, the so-called American suicide bomber. This man had nothing to do with the ONLF and as a matter of fact it is reported that he was from the Majerteen clan of Somalia. He was not even Ogaden. Therefore he is completely irreleavent to any discussion re: the ONLF. What do ppl think? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.10.21.107 ( talk) 18:47, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
This is in reference to this edit and User talk:CambridgeBayWeather#ONLF. The section, by my reading, does not say that the Ogaden people are Arab but that some people in the ONLF have tried to claim that they are an Arab movement in an effort to gain support. In particular it says that Admiral Mohamed Omar Osman, the ONLF chairman, has declared that they are. Look at the last sentence as it's now written "Around 99% of the Ogaden people practice Islam and some leaders of the Ogaden National Liberation Front." To me this now reads that although 99% of the Ogaden are Muslim only some of the leaders of the ONLF are. I think that the original section needs restoring. Enter CBW, waits for audience applause, not a sausage. 15:41, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
I don't know who in the ONLF claimed that this was an Arab movement, since it isn't. And the source needs to be validated.
The ONLF is a liberation front of the Somali people in the Ethiopian region. It is a struggle for the Somali people there, who happen to be also African, just like the Ethiopians. This has nothing to do with Arabs, and being a Muslim does not connect with being an Arab. As there are white Muslims, Black Muslims, etc.
It is and always will be a Somali movement and for the vision of a Greater Somalia. People of Ogaden do not even speak Arabic or conduct their meeting in that language. If you see clips and videos they are speaking in the beautiful Somali language. There is a point that I must stop wikipedia and their deeming Somalis to be connected with Arabs. First every single Somali name is translated to the Arabic language, now a Somali movement is being considered an Arab movement. It is like the systematic destruction of my people and I will no longer stand for it.
When Somalia joined the Arab league in 1974 it was because of resources, and not because we are Arabs. We are not and never will be. We are proud to be Somali. -- FancyFaceU ( talk) 00:10, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Ogaden_National_Liberation_Front&action=historysubmit&diff=408481531&oldid=402360142. Infringing material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. Mkativerata ( talk) 23:06, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
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This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Ogaden National Liberation Front article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Page views of this article over the last 90 days:
|
This article has been
mentioned by a media organization:
|
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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I'm new to wikipedia. Bayantree I would appreciate if you told me how to make constructive changes to this article. Because it is extremely filled with bias view. I want to make changes I don't know how to contact you to tell you all the things wrong with this article. In fact there are just too many to mention. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mkfarah ( talk • contribs) 01:49, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
User:Mkfarah removed the {{ WikiProject Terrorism}} template from this talk page. I think this should have been mentioned either on this page, or in the edit summary. Having said that, I'm not sure the ONLF article qualifies for inclusion (without even getting into problems with the term "terrorism" itself). From what I can tell, inclusion in WikiProject Terrorism is based on an article being listed at List of designated terrorist organizations. That list, in turn, cites MIPT Terrorism Knowledge Base as its source. But that web site indicates that the ONLF has not been designated a terrorist group by the US, the UK, the EU, Canada, Australia, or Russia. But the WikiProject's threshold for inclusion is not clear to me, so as of right now, I don't have a problem if this article is not included. (And I guess I should mention that I'm only referring to the article, and not my own views about the group itself, which do not belong here in any case.) -- Gyrofrog (talk) 14:29, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm very concerned about the neutrality of this article. It is EXTREMELY unevenhanded. There are a lot of so-called external sources missing. The anti-ONLF sources all seem to be Ethiopian Goverment websites and/or known affiliates thereof. There is an extreme lack of historical content. A particular "source" that I visited actually wasn't even a report it was a bloc. This is utterly disturbing. I'm challenging the neutrality of this page because it is clearly anti-ONLF and PRO-TPLF. There is no mention that the ONLF was a participant in the june 1991 conference in Addis Ababa that saw the transitional charter come to effect. There is no mention that the TPLF (EPRDF) stormed the town of gabri dahar in 1995 killing 81 people in their vein attemt to assasinate the ONLF political leadership. There isn't a mention that the so called Ethiopia constitution provides the framework for a political referendum to see succession but that the TPLF has steadfast denied the people of the Somali State to exercise that right. Furthermore, all of the TPLF's claims seem to be repeated in this article as being confirmed/true and the ONLF's claims are labelled as "allegation" "accusations" etc. This is dangerous manipulation of the English language. This article needs SERIOUS SERIOUS reworking. I'm going to work on it. And let you folks judge the difference Mkfarah 01:38, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
74.210.98.82 09:21, 23 October 2007 (UTC):::BAnyantree i would gladly contribute to this article but I don't have much time. I see that i'm competing with full-time TPLF agents probably working from Mekelle. I is clearly bias. There is no doubt about it. I could give Phd Thesis, books online essays, news article, all CREDIBLE AND REAL sources including the new york times, LA times, Voice of America, BBC, doctors without borders, UN, OHRC, Human Rights Watch, Red Cross, Newsweek Mag, etc etc. But who cares about these sources right we have Washington based lobbyist Peter Pham to speak for the TPLF and HE is cited as the "credible" source. There is no mention of the ethnic cleansing that's going on in the Ogaden, there is no mention of the TPLF's occupation of Badme, a UN declared Eritrean village, No mention of the TPLF invasion and occupation of a sovereign state. In the article it's said as "Ethiopia's entry into the conflict in Somalia" So i figured I can't spare nearly as much time so i'd just let people know that it's lies. Everything in this article is a lie. If you don't believe what i'm saying go visit the articles about the following groups and you'll see a common trend: Coalition for unity and democracy, Oromo Liberation Front, Ethiopian people's patriotic front, ARDUF, tigray people democratic movement, Union of islamic courts, and much more. You'll discover that TPLF agents sit on their monitors all day and night and spread this bullshit propaganda all over the web. It's part of new "information ministry's" program of western deception. Go to youtube and what i'm saying to you will become evident. I mean by western standard we're more media literate and you'll be able to tell that it's staged propaganda. i just wanna put it out there that this article is a lie. it's pretty late. 74.210.98.82 09:21, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
This article contains contaminited stories that are not true. For instance reference (12-16) to the section " Ogadenia confusion" has nothing to do what have been writting in the section. It's not Somalis belonging to the Ogaden-clan or ONLF this matter who nnamed the region "Ogaden". The region was called Ogaden well before the Abbassian occupeid. The person who wrote this section called it "southeast Ethiopia" and thereby he/she what been writting in history books. This section bee deleted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anfaal ( talk • contribs) 22:42, 29 October 2007
One thing I'd like to add, speaking as a frequent contributor to articles about Ethiopia & the neighboring countries, is that I frequently fall back to quoting TPLF (& Ethiopian official) sources is not because I believe them uncritically (although in some cases I do) but because I can't find anything else that fits under Wikipedia's guidelines. We need a source that anyone else can examine to support assertions in Wikipedia articles: books, magazine articles, websites, etc. I know that there are other sources out there, but due to limits on my time, I can't always examine them, let alone know that they exist. I also know that in some cases the material does not exist in the West, so I try to be understanding & lenient. If you care about the subject, please help identify these sources & bring them to our attention -- either by linking to them in the article, or posting about them here. Or even better, try to help integrate that information into the article, while leaving a pointer to where someone else can find it. -- llywrch 23:15, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
Gyrofrog: Thanks for your wise comment. And i'm sorry that have violate the rule of the wikipedia by remove the hole section, i was not aware that rule. I now have edited and I assume that eding is allowed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anfaal ( talk • contribs) 20:16, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
While I doubt the article is perfect, failing to list TPLF actions / mistakes isn't a concern for this article. I've removed the NPOV template, please use {{POV-section}} for sections or {{POV-statement}} for problematic sentences, then please detail issues here. This will help address them in a timely manner. - Roy Boy 03:42, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
This edit has been added twice and reverted twice, by Gyrofrog and myself. The problems, as I see it, are:
The user in question states, "There are some things that are so obvious that people don't have to give a list of hard reference for them," which is directly addressed in the core policy Wikipedia:Verifiability: "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth." If you can't provide a backing citation when challenged, you can't include it, even if it's obviously true. - Banyan Tree 05:28, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
I would have liked to finish discussing with that one person (Gyrofrog) to get his response for my last comment so that it won't go back and forth. I would like to have Gyrofrog's response to my comment. As you can see these articles { Ethiopia, Eritrea, Somalia, Kenya etc etc} they virtually have paragraphs and paragraphes and paragraphes of unreferenced statements. (PLEASE CHECK THEM and THOUSANDS OF OTHER AFRICAN ARTICLES) I think you would need a few days or few weeks to clean all that up (search refences for every SINGLE unreferenced statements on endless number of African articles) if you are going to say obvious statements need extensive references. As i explained in my talk page by giving an example, it is obvious America is not in a war with Canada today. Such things (that USA and Canada are not currently in a bloody war) are so obvious that i can promise not to force you to add a reference to write that statement. For us Africans, we ALSO have obvious facts here and there that all sides don't even dispute at all because, again, it is just so obvious.
You also said "Why exactly does an Ethiopian separatist group need to take a policy stance on the situation in another country?" MY ANSWER: you obviously need to check more about the topic because the ONLF says its people are not Ethiopians, they are Ogaden group who are "colonized" by Ethiopians. Please look up anywhere online to find this other obvious thing or randomly pick any African to tell you since this is a given. So in case you don't know, ONLF is fighting to liberate Ogaden people, which happen to live in both Ethiopia and Kenya. I hope i answered your question. Again, we would need to re-write or delete virtually thousands of thousands of African articles on Wikipedia if "backing citation" is needed in every single African sentence. I hope you understand. Please don't move this discussion to another page again so we don't have to keep starting discussion from scratch. Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.107.104.209 ( talk) 05:49, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
"I don't know where you are getting this 'Ogaden includes Kenya' bit, as one would think that would be included in the Ogaden article" YOU see, if you were reading the discussions and the statements and reference BEFORE YOU REVERT, you would have realized the fact that Ogadens are in Kenya is starring you in your face!! http://www.geocities.com/~dagmawi/Zebenya/pics/Somalia_clan_map.jpg <<--- A reference i provided THREE REVERTS AGO! By the way, i hope you are not purposely trying to annoy me!! I don't want a citation that Canada is not in war with USA. EVERYBODY KNOWS THAT!! Just like everyone knows that ONLF IS NOT IN WAR WITH KENYA!! Hey, i heard some claim George Bush is not a woman!! Find a reference that proves that he is not a woman! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.107.104.209 ( talk) 06:13, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
From my examination of this website, American Chronicle is not a reliable source, for simple reason that they will publish anything with minimal editorial review. My opinion is supported the consensus formed by this discussion in Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Spam. The material I have removed includes:
A lot of the footnotes need to be refactored; a more careful reading shows that at least one source is cited multiple times under slightly different titles. Sheesh, someone has been busy making tendentious edits. :-( llywrch ( talk) 16:46, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
Why is there any mention of Ahmed Shirwa, the so-called American suicide bomber. This man had nothing to do with the ONLF and as a matter of fact it is reported that he was from the Majerteen clan of Somalia. He was not even Ogaden. Therefore he is completely irreleavent to any discussion re: the ONLF. What do ppl think? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.10.21.107 ( talk) 18:47, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
This is in reference to this edit and User talk:CambridgeBayWeather#ONLF. The section, by my reading, does not say that the Ogaden people are Arab but that some people in the ONLF have tried to claim that they are an Arab movement in an effort to gain support. In particular it says that Admiral Mohamed Omar Osman, the ONLF chairman, has declared that they are. Look at the last sentence as it's now written "Around 99% of the Ogaden people practice Islam and some leaders of the Ogaden National Liberation Front." To me this now reads that although 99% of the Ogaden are Muslim only some of the leaders of the ONLF are. I think that the original section needs restoring. Enter CBW, waits for audience applause, not a sausage. 15:41, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
I don't know who in the ONLF claimed that this was an Arab movement, since it isn't. And the source needs to be validated.
The ONLF is a liberation front of the Somali people in the Ethiopian region. It is a struggle for the Somali people there, who happen to be also African, just like the Ethiopians. This has nothing to do with Arabs, and being a Muslim does not connect with being an Arab. As there are white Muslims, Black Muslims, etc.
It is and always will be a Somali movement and for the vision of a Greater Somalia. People of Ogaden do not even speak Arabic or conduct their meeting in that language. If you see clips and videos they are speaking in the beautiful Somali language. There is a point that I must stop wikipedia and their deeming Somalis to be connected with Arabs. First every single Somali name is translated to the Arabic language, now a Somali movement is being considered an Arab movement. It is like the systematic destruction of my people and I will no longer stand for it.
When Somalia joined the Arab league in 1974 it was because of resources, and not because we are Arabs. We are not and never will be. We are proud to be Somali. -- FancyFaceU ( talk) 00:10, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Ogaden_National_Liberation_Front&action=historysubmit&diff=408481531&oldid=402360142. Infringing material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. Mkativerata ( talk) 23:06, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
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