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![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on 17 January 2009 (UTC). The result of the discussion was keep. |
![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on 2 October 2008 (UTC). The result of the discussion was keep. |
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check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
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how can over the hell it is possible isareli are no devils
Either the Arabs are seriously this bad, or someone is bullshitting about this "battle".
Better pilots and better planes. -- 66.229.35.146 ( talk) 06:19, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
there is no source to prove the battle
The article has a clear pro-Israel point of view, for the following reasons:
1.The story is illogical, 7 MIGs cannot be shot down in 6 minutes only, given the phantom armament, we would know that such a large number of kills (4 for one of the two phantoms) must involve cannon kills which would necessarily come after relatively long dogfights.
2.The only source mentioned is the Israeli air forces website, which cannot be considered a neutral source.
3.Back in 1973 the MIG-17 an outdated subsonic aircraft ,shouldn’t be the EAF first choice in a critical mission , personally I believe that sending out 28 of these aircrafts on their own is an act of madness which doesn’t consist with the general Egyptian performance during this war
Replaced tag based on multiple concerns expressed above. Qball6 03:21, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
the two pilots got medals (one for downing 3, of which one was MIG-21, and the other for downing 4), I know of reliable sources about the battle in hebrew (attached to the hebrew wikipedia). By the way six minutes is long for this kind of battle (certainly not a short one).
This article has now been around for a while and the various concerns that have been raised have not been fixed. First, there is no independant sourcing for the article. Second, the notability has been questioned - I'm not certain that this qualifies as a "battle" rather than a skirmish, engagement or action. The more I consider this article, the more I think it is appropriate to propose deletion. However, I want to give fair notice and an opportunity to improve/add sourcing before I do so. - Kubigula ( ave) 17:22, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
what a load of bullsh** how the hell can this be even possible a 5 year-old kid wouldn't believe this
this battle is called "2-28" and it is a very famous battle. there was another air battle between israeli and russian pilot but my english is not good enough to write an article about it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.242.254.34 ( talk) 03:22, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
i am 99.9% sure that this was featured on an episode of dogfights —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.43.164.197 ( talk) 02:59, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
Seeing that there has been no contribution to this discussion, and that this article remains supported by the same single source (IAF), which is not neutral and so cannot be considered a reliable source, I have nominated this article for deletion. Not to mention this article is not mentioned anywhere else. Sherif9282 ( talk) 22:54, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
"At exactly 1400 on 6 October Israeli Air Force fighters were scrambled from their bases. Here and there they achieved local success: shooting down seven attacking Egyptian fighters for no losses over Ophir (sic.)air base; shooting down an AS-5 ASM launched by an Egyptian Tu-16 towards Tel Aviv; shooting down most of the Egyptian Su-7s that attacked the major Israel Defense Force command and control center at Om Hashiba - including the one flown by Atef Sadat the half brother of the Egyptian President Anwar Sadat."
From Page 80, "Arab-Israeli Air Wars 1947-82" by Shlomo Aloni, Osprey Combat Aircraft # 23, Copyright 2001, Osprey Publishing Limited, Elms Court, Chapel Way, Botley, Oxford OX291LP. This is probably not enough for "independent verification" since Shlomo Aloni is an Israeli, but his other works show significant access to Israeli specific documents and are quite scholarly.. There is no specific citation for this information, but there is a general listing of "Selected English Bibliography." Yudel ( talk) 17:26, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
"They (Egyptian fighters) were greeted with a barrage of antiaircraft fire (most from Soviet equipment captured from the Arabs, ironically enough) and missiles that managed to shoot down four SU-7s while two F-4s accounted for seven MiGs."
p. 32, Walter J Boyne, "The Two O'Clock War," @2002 Walter J. Boyne, Thomas Dunne Books, and imprint of St. Martin Press, NY —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yudel ( talk • contribs) 03:45, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
The article has been nominated for deletion once more. The reasons and discussions concerning this are stated here. Sherif9282 ( talk) 11:19, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
A tag was placed on this article yesterday, yet no discussion was started on this talk page. WP:DRIVEBY says an article should not be tagged unless an actionable issue is being discussed. Is there such an issue? -- Nudve ( talk) 15:53, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
Simon Dunstan, in his book, The Yom Kippur War 1973: The Arab-Israeli War of 1973 p.33, mentions that the Egyptian crossing involved Egyptian losses of 208 killed, 20 tanks destroyed and five aircraft downed. This information contradicts what's presented here in the article. Sherif9282 ( talk) 10:00, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
Why is it original research? It is important to note that Ofira was a target in the Egyptian air strike on October 6.
Here is the book: The Yom Kippur War.
I have another book which states that the Egyptian air strike on October 6 targeted the Ras Nasrani airfield. A quick look at Wikimapia shows that Ras Nasrani and Ofira are one and the same:
http://wikimapia.org/#lat=27.9707435&lon=34.3812418&z=17&l=0&m=a&v=2&search=ras%20nasrani
-- Sherif9282 ( talk) 09:22, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
Look at the link again. It's clearly written at the right, in the description of the picture on the preceding page, that the initial Egyptian air strike saw five Egyptian aircraft downed. Also, the other source I have states that the airstrike targeted Ras Nasrani Air Base. Now take a look at this link and search Ofira Airbase and see for yourself. The coordinates in the link are the same ones in Wikimapia. Ras Nasrani is Ofira. I'm re-inserting the information you removed, with adjustments. -- Sherif9282 ( talk) 11:56, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
Listen Canadian Monkey, I don't know of any other way of putting that information, but ultimately, that was sourced information. I stated facts, and made no conclusion whatsoever. Perhaps you can adjust it so that it complies with WP:SYNTH. -- Sherif9282 ( talk) 21:05, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
What we have is not only a statement that losses for the 6 October air strike were only five aircraft, a statement seconded by Simon Dunstan, but Shazly further mentions that five aircraft were the total Egyptian losses up to October 7. We also have an Egyptian source that states that the air strike targeted Ofira air base.
Whether there is a source that directly contradicts the Ofira Air Battle is extremely unlikely (more like impossible). I believe that the sources at hand and the information they provide can be used here whilst complying with WP:SYNTH. This information is worth noting here in the article. -- Sherif9282 ( talk) 21:59, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
Look, what if we added that sentence, and the losses? We do not state the losses as those of the air strike, but in relation to time; Shazly states that five aircraft losses were the total losses up to the morning of October 7. I think this won't be at odds with WP:SYNTH. -- Sherif9282 ( talk) 16:32, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
Turns out some amateur photographer caught part of the battle on 8mm film. Link shows a MiG-17 being hit and crashing into the sea, a Phantom, several MiGs and a meeting between the guy who shot the film and Amir Nahumi. With additional photos here (third post, tropo anntenae make it clear site is Ofira), I hope we can put to rest any notion that this battle never took place. Poliocretes ( talk) 08:54, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
You use the source that you like, not the facts. The facts are that there are the same Israeli books like Danny Asher and Le Pen's Passover. The losses are estimated 5, but your beloved Israel must win to a degree. falsification of facts Ever ground ( talk) 22:51, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
Israeli historians. Much more neutral than you, you are more royal than the king himself. Egypt is subjected to systematic distortion because of you Ever ground ( talk) 22:52, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
Losses of about 40. This plane is greatly exaggerated, according to Colonel Easter Le Pen, who confirmed that the Egyptian losses were only 5 planes. This is in a book for an attack that restored security to Egypt Ever ground ( talk) 22:36, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
![]() | Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to the Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:
Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.
|
![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on 17 January 2009 (UTC). The result of the discussion was keep. |
![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on 2 October 2008 (UTC). The result of the discussion was keep. |
![]() | A fact from Ofira Air Battle appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 18 November 2008 (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
| ![]() |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
how can over the hell it is possible isareli are no devils
Either the Arabs are seriously this bad, or someone is bullshitting about this "battle".
Better pilots and better planes. -- 66.229.35.146 ( talk) 06:19, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
there is no source to prove the battle
The article has a clear pro-Israel point of view, for the following reasons:
1.The story is illogical, 7 MIGs cannot be shot down in 6 minutes only, given the phantom armament, we would know that such a large number of kills (4 for one of the two phantoms) must involve cannon kills which would necessarily come after relatively long dogfights.
2.The only source mentioned is the Israeli air forces website, which cannot be considered a neutral source.
3.Back in 1973 the MIG-17 an outdated subsonic aircraft ,shouldn’t be the EAF first choice in a critical mission , personally I believe that sending out 28 of these aircrafts on their own is an act of madness which doesn’t consist with the general Egyptian performance during this war
Replaced tag based on multiple concerns expressed above. Qball6 03:21, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
the two pilots got medals (one for downing 3, of which one was MIG-21, and the other for downing 4), I know of reliable sources about the battle in hebrew (attached to the hebrew wikipedia). By the way six minutes is long for this kind of battle (certainly not a short one).
This article has now been around for a while and the various concerns that have been raised have not been fixed. First, there is no independant sourcing for the article. Second, the notability has been questioned - I'm not certain that this qualifies as a "battle" rather than a skirmish, engagement or action. The more I consider this article, the more I think it is appropriate to propose deletion. However, I want to give fair notice and an opportunity to improve/add sourcing before I do so. - Kubigula ( ave) 17:22, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
what a load of bullsh** how the hell can this be even possible a 5 year-old kid wouldn't believe this
this battle is called "2-28" and it is a very famous battle. there was another air battle between israeli and russian pilot but my english is not good enough to write an article about it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.242.254.34 ( talk) 03:22, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
i am 99.9% sure that this was featured on an episode of dogfights —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.43.164.197 ( talk) 02:59, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
Seeing that there has been no contribution to this discussion, and that this article remains supported by the same single source (IAF), which is not neutral and so cannot be considered a reliable source, I have nominated this article for deletion. Not to mention this article is not mentioned anywhere else. Sherif9282 ( talk) 22:54, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
"At exactly 1400 on 6 October Israeli Air Force fighters were scrambled from their bases. Here and there they achieved local success: shooting down seven attacking Egyptian fighters for no losses over Ophir (sic.)air base; shooting down an AS-5 ASM launched by an Egyptian Tu-16 towards Tel Aviv; shooting down most of the Egyptian Su-7s that attacked the major Israel Defense Force command and control center at Om Hashiba - including the one flown by Atef Sadat the half brother of the Egyptian President Anwar Sadat."
From Page 80, "Arab-Israeli Air Wars 1947-82" by Shlomo Aloni, Osprey Combat Aircraft # 23, Copyright 2001, Osprey Publishing Limited, Elms Court, Chapel Way, Botley, Oxford OX291LP. This is probably not enough for "independent verification" since Shlomo Aloni is an Israeli, but his other works show significant access to Israeli specific documents and are quite scholarly.. There is no specific citation for this information, but there is a general listing of "Selected English Bibliography." Yudel ( talk) 17:26, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
"They (Egyptian fighters) were greeted with a barrage of antiaircraft fire (most from Soviet equipment captured from the Arabs, ironically enough) and missiles that managed to shoot down four SU-7s while two F-4s accounted for seven MiGs."
p. 32, Walter J Boyne, "The Two O'Clock War," @2002 Walter J. Boyne, Thomas Dunne Books, and imprint of St. Martin Press, NY —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yudel ( talk • contribs) 03:45, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
The article has been nominated for deletion once more. The reasons and discussions concerning this are stated here. Sherif9282 ( talk) 11:19, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
A tag was placed on this article yesterday, yet no discussion was started on this talk page. WP:DRIVEBY says an article should not be tagged unless an actionable issue is being discussed. Is there such an issue? -- Nudve ( talk) 15:53, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
Simon Dunstan, in his book, The Yom Kippur War 1973: The Arab-Israeli War of 1973 p.33, mentions that the Egyptian crossing involved Egyptian losses of 208 killed, 20 tanks destroyed and five aircraft downed. This information contradicts what's presented here in the article. Sherif9282 ( talk) 10:00, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
Why is it original research? It is important to note that Ofira was a target in the Egyptian air strike on October 6.
Here is the book: The Yom Kippur War.
I have another book which states that the Egyptian air strike on October 6 targeted the Ras Nasrani airfield. A quick look at Wikimapia shows that Ras Nasrani and Ofira are one and the same:
http://wikimapia.org/#lat=27.9707435&lon=34.3812418&z=17&l=0&m=a&v=2&search=ras%20nasrani
-- Sherif9282 ( talk) 09:22, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
Look at the link again. It's clearly written at the right, in the description of the picture on the preceding page, that the initial Egyptian air strike saw five Egyptian aircraft downed. Also, the other source I have states that the airstrike targeted Ras Nasrani Air Base. Now take a look at this link and search Ofira Airbase and see for yourself. The coordinates in the link are the same ones in Wikimapia. Ras Nasrani is Ofira. I'm re-inserting the information you removed, with adjustments. -- Sherif9282 ( talk) 11:56, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
Listen Canadian Monkey, I don't know of any other way of putting that information, but ultimately, that was sourced information. I stated facts, and made no conclusion whatsoever. Perhaps you can adjust it so that it complies with WP:SYNTH. -- Sherif9282 ( talk) 21:05, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
What we have is not only a statement that losses for the 6 October air strike were only five aircraft, a statement seconded by Simon Dunstan, but Shazly further mentions that five aircraft were the total Egyptian losses up to October 7. We also have an Egyptian source that states that the air strike targeted Ofira air base.
Whether there is a source that directly contradicts the Ofira Air Battle is extremely unlikely (more like impossible). I believe that the sources at hand and the information they provide can be used here whilst complying with WP:SYNTH. This information is worth noting here in the article. -- Sherif9282 ( talk) 21:59, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
Look, what if we added that sentence, and the losses? We do not state the losses as those of the air strike, but in relation to time; Shazly states that five aircraft losses were the total losses up to the morning of October 7. I think this won't be at odds with WP:SYNTH. -- Sherif9282 ( talk) 16:32, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
Turns out some amateur photographer caught part of the battle on 8mm film. Link shows a MiG-17 being hit and crashing into the sea, a Phantom, several MiGs and a meeting between the guy who shot the film and Amir Nahumi. With additional photos here (third post, tropo anntenae make it clear site is Ofira), I hope we can put to rest any notion that this battle never took place. Poliocretes ( talk) 08:54, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
You use the source that you like, not the facts. The facts are that there are the same Israeli books like Danny Asher and Le Pen's Passover. The losses are estimated 5, but your beloved Israel must win to a degree. falsification of facts Ever ground ( talk) 22:51, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
Israeli historians. Much more neutral than you, you are more royal than the king himself. Egypt is subjected to systematic distortion because of you Ever ground ( talk) 22:52, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
Losses of about 40. This plane is greatly exaggerated, according to Colonel Easter Le Pen, who confirmed that the Egyptian losses were only 5 planes. This is in a book for an attack that restored security to Egypt Ever ground ( talk) 22:36, 23 February 2022 (UTC)