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With apologies to everyone, I've reorganised the discussion into two threads:
With regards to Demiurge, the term "Stalinist" is entirely appropriate. It is not a value judgement of their politics. One need only look at their politics, they embraced: the "Stages Theory" approach to revolution and the concept of the "popular front". These are two things which distinguish Stalinism from other variants of Marxism (Western, Trotskyist, Post-Marxist,Neo-Marxist etc.) On top of this they, in their present incarnation, still refer to the former eastern bloc states, as being "socialist" and the Soviet Union as being "socialist". These are positions consistent with an organisation having a Stalinist framework. This is not about having a NPOV, what this is about is precision of terminology. Whilst calling them "Marxists" is not entirely inaacurate it is unnecessarily vague. DBE
Clem, The problem for much of the last 70 or 80 years Marxism was not seriously differentiated from the politics of the Soviet Union and of Stalin. Despite the ease at which one could see the divergance... at least if one wishes to do so. Even in the post 1989 era they often are still often not differentiated, I suspect for differing though ultimately self-serving reasons. One need not have a PhD in political theory to see how seriously the politics of Stalinism and those of Marxism differentiate from each other on a number of fundemental areas. The politics of the Official Republican Movement were, and in their present incarnation still are, in the ares of "popular frontism", "stages theory", a pro-UUSR/Eastern Bloc (viewed as socialist)and a dependence of "parliamentarism" rather than mass movements puts them squarely in the camp of the Stalinist version of Marxism. Their politics speak for themselves. To label them unqualifyingly as "Marxist" is unnecessarily vague and is by itself is inaccurate. In doing so one is effectively claiming that their is no significat difference between them and other "Marxist" groups such as the SWP or SP, or for that matter from the Shinning Path in Peru. I for one believe that there are differences between these parties and it is because they have different "Marxisms" that need to be differentiated for the sake of clarity, terminological precision, and intellectual honesty. Clem, you mightn't be able to find a book that specifically refers to them as "Stalinist" but then I have never seen a book written about them that was written from the critical perspective of a Marxist. However, I can refer you to litany of books that discuss the diversity within Marxist thought in excrutiating detail and you can see for yourself exactly where the ORM/WP falls ideologically. Finally, you argue that "Stalinist" is a pejorative, well in many places so is "Marxist" 69.119.74.121
Paul LeBlanc "From Marx to Gramsci: A Reader in Revolutionary Marxist Politics" Jules Townsend "The Politics of Marxism: The Critical Debates" Tom Bottlemore "A Dictionary of Marxist Thought" Stephen E. Bronner & Douglas M. Kellner "Critical Theory and Society: A Reader" You may wish to compare J. Stalin's "Selected Works" and L. Trotsky's "Permanent Revolution" and "The Revolution Betrayed" 69.119.74.121
"whereas the traditionalists continued to see the Unionist population as foreign planters and historic ememies". This is a mischaracterisation of the Provisionals position and is not reflective of their ideology then, or now. I do question its NPOV DBE
I recall an AP article written shortly after Sunningdale collapsed and Ruari O'Bradaigh commenting on what the Loyalists had been able to achieve (referring to the strike) and musing on what would be possible if Republicans and Loyalists would be able to get together as a common political force. The enemy for the Provos was the state and its agents (police, army, paramilitaries) not the general Protestant population (obviously they will disagree). The fact is that even in the most militant Republican areas there are Protestants living as they always have done so. The cold, hard truth of the matter is that if Protestants had been viewed as the enemy there wouldn't be any left west of the Bann. DBE Also, one must look at the surnames Adams,Morrison,Hannaway-surely those names indicate possible Protestant "Planter" forefathers.As a person of Irish Catholic ancestry on my father's side, but brought up in the Protestant religion, I can attest to the fact that not once has a Nationalist ever verbally attacked me on the basis of my religion or my mother's Ulster "planter " surname.My POV,obviously, but I had to say it here to back up the last user.-- jeanne ( talk) 18:49, 10 April 2008 (UTC)-- jeanne ( talk) 18:49, 10 April 2008 (UTC)-- jeanne ( talk) 18:49, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
By what stretch were the INLA/IRSP Maoist? As I understand it, even in its early days the Republican Socialist Movement included leftists of many different stripes. 64.229.184.240, 20 Sept
Hi all, I'm rather new to the Wiki (just joined up a few days ago), but the whole WikiProject concept seems like an effective tool for gathering a group of people together to work on a specific subject. I'm primarily interested in contributing to areas related to Irish nationalism, and the Irish Republican Army, and I've noticed a few of you have quite a lot of involvement in the same area. So, I wonder if anyone would be interested in forming a WikiProject focusing on Irish Nationalism? Wikipedia:WikiProject Irish Republicanism seems like a good title to me! WP:IRA would be a great shortcut! I'm posting this up on many different pages, so I would especially appreciate it if, if you're interested, you would join me at User talk:Johnathan Swift#WikiProject IRA. Erin Go Bragh 06:40, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
Official IRA -> Official Irish Republican Army. Regardless of the merits of the "Official IRA" name the PIRA, CIRA and RIRA all follow the latter standard, so this should be the same for the sake of consistency. One Night In Hackney 303 17:09, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
The article states that OIRA were confined mainly to the Falls Road and Markets areas of Belfast but seeing as Ballymuphy saw quite a bit of activity such as feuding between the INLA and OIRA surely Ballymurphy should be added to the article. jeanne ( talk) 07:14, 8 April 2008 (UTC) Also Cork had an OIRA presence in late 1970's and it isn't mentioned in article.Overall jeanne ( talk) 07:25, 8 April 2008 (UTC),Ithink article needs expanding. jeanne ( talk) 07:25, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
cia involvement? there have been many rumours of cia backing towards the ira. it was first brought to my attention by al murry on mock the week. is there any evidence to thi accusations and if so what was the purpose of the funding?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.88.161.224 ( talk) 00:18, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
They shot Seamus Costello in 1977. They did some stuff after that too. The only sensible date for the infobox is when they declared a ceasefire surely? O Fenian ( talk) 03:08, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
In the infobox it says its leaders were unknown; wasn't Cathal Goulding one of the leaders? If so, his name should be in the infobox.-- Jeanne Boleyn ( talk) 19:05, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
I have no idea why User:ÓCorcráin keeps removing this sourced info. They insist here and on the PIRA page that sources like RTE are "non-neutral." That seems to be a total misinterpretation of our neutral point of view and reliable sources policies. Sources do not have to be neutral, WP:RS specifically says: "reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective." So removing sourced info on that basis is unacceptable. Furthermore, it's incredibly hard to see how American authors with no track record in the conflict and an IRA historian like J Bowyer Bell, who even gets a glowing obituary entitled "an appreciation" in An Phoblacht, are non-neutral! ÓCorcráin in their latest edit then insists on the production of "official data from electoral records." No. First those would be primary sources and Wikipedia prefers secondary sources, secondly no one is claiming that there are "electoral records" showing "a political party called Provisional Sinn Féin." So that is a classic strawman argument. What is being claimed is that those who supported the Provisional Army Council "came to be known popularly as ... [[Provisional Sinn Féin]" A search of google and google books shows up thousands of sources showing that that is so. The party itself even seems to have used Sinn Féin (Provisional) in early publications. This should be changed back to the previous version, unless better justification for removing this well referenced info is found. Valenciano ( talk) 17:11, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
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After making some changes to the This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects section above, I realized that I should ask for discussion about the changes here. Please discuss the changes above, and say whether is any problem or not.-- Dthomsen8 ( talk) 00:27, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
The Officials were known as 'the Stickies' throughout nationalist Belfast – not merely by those in the West of the city. This is a glaring error in the Intro Billsmith60 ( talk) 18:32, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
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With apologies to everyone, I've reorganised the discussion into two threads:
With regards to Demiurge, the term "Stalinist" is entirely appropriate. It is not a value judgement of their politics. One need only look at their politics, they embraced: the "Stages Theory" approach to revolution and the concept of the "popular front". These are two things which distinguish Stalinism from other variants of Marxism (Western, Trotskyist, Post-Marxist,Neo-Marxist etc.) On top of this they, in their present incarnation, still refer to the former eastern bloc states, as being "socialist" and the Soviet Union as being "socialist". These are positions consistent with an organisation having a Stalinist framework. This is not about having a NPOV, what this is about is precision of terminology. Whilst calling them "Marxists" is not entirely inaacurate it is unnecessarily vague. DBE
Clem, The problem for much of the last 70 or 80 years Marxism was not seriously differentiated from the politics of the Soviet Union and of Stalin. Despite the ease at which one could see the divergance... at least if one wishes to do so. Even in the post 1989 era they often are still often not differentiated, I suspect for differing though ultimately self-serving reasons. One need not have a PhD in political theory to see how seriously the politics of Stalinism and those of Marxism differentiate from each other on a number of fundemental areas. The politics of the Official Republican Movement were, and in their present incarnation still are, in the ares of "popular frontism", "stages theory", a pro-UUSR/Eastern Bloc (viewed as socialist)and a dependence of "parliamentarism" rather than mass movements puts them squarely in the camp of the Stalinist version of Marxism. Their politics speak for themselves. To label them unqualifyingly as "Marxist" is unnecessarily vague and is by itself is inaccurate. In doing so one is effectively claiming that their is no significat difference between them and other "Marxist" groups such as the SWP or SP, or for that matter from the Shinning Path in Peru. I for one believe that there are differences between these parties and it is because they have different "Marxisms" that need to be differentiated for the sake of clarity, terminological precision, and intellectual honesty. Clem, you mightn't be able to find a book that specifically refers to them as "Stalinist" but then I have never seen a book written about them that was written from the critical perspective of a Marxist. However, I can refer you to litany of books that discuss the diversity within Marxist thought in excrutiating detail and you can see for yourself exactly where the ORM/WP falls ideologically. Finally, you argue that "Stalinist" is a pejorative, well in many places so is "Marxist" 69.119.74.121
Paul LeBlanc "From Marx to Gramsci: A Reader in Revolutionary Marxist Politics" Jules Townsend "The Politics of Marxism: The Critical Debates" Tom Bottlemore "A Dictionary of Marxist Thought" Stephen E. Bronner & Douglas M. Kellner "Critical Theory and Society: A Reader" You may wish to compare J. Stalin's "Selected Works" and L. Trotsky's "Permanent Revolution" and "The Revolution Betrayed" 69.119.74.121
"whereas the traditionalists continued to see the Unionist population as foreign planters and historic ememies". This is a mischaracterisation of the Provisionals position and is not reflective of their ideology then, or now. I do question its NPOV DBE
I recall an AP article written shortly after Sunningdale collapsed and Ruari O'Bradaigh commenting on what the Loyalists had been able to achieve (referring to the strike) and musing on what would be possible if Republicans and Loyalists would be able to get together as a common political force. The enemy for the Provos was the state and its agents (police, army, paramilitaries) not the general Protestant population (obviously they will disagree). The fact is that even in the most militant Republican areas there are Protestants living as they always have done so. The cold, hard truth of the matter is that if Protestants had been viewed as the enemy there wouldn't be any left west of the Bann. DBE Also, one must look at the surnames Adams,Morrison,Hannaway-surely those names indicate possible Protestant "Planter" forefathers.As a person of Irish Catholic ancestry on my father's side, but brought up in the Protestant religion, I can attest to the fact that not once has a Nationalist ever verbally attacked me on the basis of my religion or my mother's Ulster "planter " surname.My POV,obviously, but I had to say it here to back up the last user.-- jeanne ( talk) 18:49, 10 April 2008 (UTC)-- jeanne ( talk) 18:49, 10 April 2008 (UTC)-- jeanne ( talk) 18:49, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
By what stretch were the INLA/IRSP Maoist? As I understand it, even in its early days the Republican Socialist Movement included leftists of many different stripes. 64.229.184.240, 20 Sept
Hi all, I'm rather new to the Wiki (just joined up a few days ago), but the whole WikiProject concept seems like an effective tool for gathering a group of people together to work on a specific subject. I'm primarily interested in contributing to areas related to Irish nationalism, and the Irish Republican Army, and I've noticed a few of you have quite a lot of involvement in the same area. So, I wonder if anyone would be interested in forming a WikiProject focusing on Irish Nationalism? Wikipedia:WikiProject Irish Republicanism seems like a good title to me! WP:IRA would be a great shortcut! I'm posting this up on many different pages, so I would especially appreciate it if, if you're interested, you would join me at User talk:Johnathan Swift#WikiProject IRA. Erin Go Bragh 06:40, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
Official IRA -> Official Irish Republican Army. Regardless of the merits of the "Official IRA" name the PIRA, CIRA and RIRA all follow the latter standard, so this should be the same for the sake of consistency. One Night In Hackney 303 17:09, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
The article states that OIRA were confined mainly to the Falls Road and Markets areas of Belfast but seeing as Ballymuphy saw quite a bit of activity such as feuding between the INLA and OIRA surely Ballymurphy should be added to the article. jeanne ( talk) 07:14, 8 April 2008 (UTC) Also Cork had an OIRA presence in late 1970's and it isn't mentioned in article.Overall jeanne ( talk) 07:25, 8 April 2008 (UTC),Ithink article needs expanding. jeanne ( talk) 07:25, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
cia involvement? there have been many rumours of cia backing towards the ira. it was first brought to my attention by al murry on mock the week. is there any evidence to thi accusations and if so what was the purpose of the funding?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.88.161.224 ( talk) 00:18, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
They shot Seamus Costello in 1977. They did some stuff after that too. The only sensible date for the infobox is when they declared a ceasefire surely? O Fenian ( talk) 03:08, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
In the infobox it says its leaders were unknown; wasn't Cathal Goulding one of the leaders? If so, his name should be in the infobox.-- Jeanne Boleyn ( talk) 19:05, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
I have no idea why User:ÓCorcráin keeps removing this sourced info. They insist here and on the PIRA page that sources like RTE are "non-neutral." That seems to be a total misinterpretation of our neutral point of view and reliable sources policies. Sources do not have to be neutral, WP:RS specifically says: "reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective." So removing sourced info on that basis is unacceptable. Furthermore, it's incredibly hard to see how American authors with no track record in the conflict and an IRA historian like J Bowyer Bell, who even gets a glowing obituary entitled "an appreciation" in An Phoblacht, are non-neutral! ÓCorcráin in their latest edit then insists on the production of "official data from electoral records." No. First those would be primary sources and Wikipedia prefers secondary sources, secondly no one is claiming that there are "electoral records" showing "a political party called Provisional Sinn Féin." So that is a classic strawman argument. What is being claimed is that those who supported the Provisional Army Council "came to be known popularly as ... [[Provisional Sinn Féin]" A search of google and google books shows up thousands of sources showing that that is so. The party itself even seems to have used Sinn Féin (Provisional) in early publications. This should be changed back to the previous version, unless better justification for removing this well referenced info is found. Valenciano ( talk) 17:11, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to 2 external links on
Official Irish Republican Army. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
This message was posted before February 2018.
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source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers. — cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 21:48, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
After making some changes to the This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects section above, I realized that I should ask for discussion about the changes here. Please discuss the changes above, and say whether is any problem or not.-- Dthomsen8 ( talk) 00:27, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
The Officials were known as 'the Stickies' throughout nationalist Belfast – not merely by those in the West of the city. This is a glaring error in the Intro Billsmith60 ( talk) 18:32, 3 February 2022 (UTC)