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![]() | The contents of the Ex-Haredim page were merged into Off the derech on 12/29/2015. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
Should be deleted. Not neutral.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Pualsonese ( talk • contribs)
Completed merger from Ex-Haredim page. This page still needs a lot of work. Please help edit and expand. Lokshin kugel ( talk) 21:50, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
It seems to me a very notable topic. It has received coverage by most major orthodox Jewish publication plus a book by this name has been published. User:Pualsonese has a good point that the article must be NPOV. Joe407 ( talk) 11:02, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
This article should belong in Urban Dictionary, not on Wikipedia. 2.124.207.31 ( talk) 22:47, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
Absolutely not. This article references a significant sociological shift. Lokshin kugel ( talk) 21:12, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
We should add about Jews who went "off the Derech" throughout History. There are many publications about that - some also focus on the "problems" these caused to the Religious communities. Take Russia for example. The problem is that it is very difficult to find valid reputable sources for this topic in general. Caseeart ( talk) 06:29, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
I will link some wiki pages Lokshin kugel ( talk) 21:12, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
@Sir Joseph: You are at it again. Please do not wipe pages at your discretion because you decide what is and isn't worthy of being on the page. Your job is to ask for sources, not to delete. You are expected to give time for editors to find sources to material.
Your deletion of the list of books as per Wikipedia:External links directory issues is wrong. That page specifically mentions external links. This is not a listing of external links.
If you continue to run through pages deleting without first asking for consensus I will be forced to report you. Lokshin kugel ( talk) 21:09, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
Please add the list of books back into the article. They are all prominent and notable. It is not an endless list, but a fitting bibliography of the genre. Lokshin kugel ( talk) 22:43, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
I will be reverting it. If you want to synthesize it with read also, that is fine. But removing information you simply don't like is not bold, its censorship. If you have an issue, bring it up on the talk page and wait for consensus. Otherwise, please show me your exact source which says WP is not a directory of books. Lokshin kugel ( talk) 23:41, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
From BOLD, revert, discuss cycle:
The list of notable people who became less or non-religious is IMHO indiscriminate/not relevant to the article, since that fact is not the reason these people are notable. I would understand a list of people notable for becoming less or not religious, like Spinoza (just that he changed to Christianity, so he doesn't really fit the criteria either). I propose to remove the present list from this article. Debresser ( talk) 15:49, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
It looks as if "Off the derech" (="off the path") is a more Haredi term? In Israel they seem to self-identify as "Yotzim" (="leaving") link
Should we perhaps move this article to "Yotzim"? Huldra ( talk) 23:22, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
I stripped all the External Links from the resources section since it was starting to look like a directory and EL. The main section has what resources are available, I don't think we need to list all resources. We have Footsteps and Makom and then mention FB groups, as well as others are available. Once we start listing more, we then have issues with determining what to include, and of course, EL and DIRECTORY. Sir Joseph (talk) 00:01, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
Is this not a more accurate description? it will also possibly help to shorten the whole section...
“Off the Derech is a modern expression meaning one who left a traditional-Orthodox Jewish lifestyle and embraced a non-observant or less-observant one” (Green, 2017). source: Nancy Steinberg's study. Albertinon ( talk) 22:30, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
WP: RELEVANCE Victims within the Ultra-Orthodox community and their families reporting sexual abuse to authorities, are said to often be shunned and quietened by community members and leaders.
Perhaps we can move it to legal Battles (in "communities response") Albertinon ( talk) 10:01, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
WP:CHERRYPICKING Albertinon ( talk) 00:13, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
Wouldn't that be "shmad" ? Almost sure one who leaves to another religion will not be called OTD by orthodox people unless they're unaware of his new religion. and the person themselves, would they refer to themselves as OTD if they have a new religious identity? highly doubtful. I recommend removing "other religions" from intro. Albertinon ( talk) 08:07, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
I'm trying to work out why contributors/editors have given so much weight to her book. it is at best insightful, and at worst possibly delusional. it is not academic research. anyone? Albertinon ( talk) 16:06, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
Hi, If possible please review two new pieces I added to the lead section. Edit if needed for [WP:MOS]. Albertinon ( talk) 20:02, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
I have hidden this paragraph (terminology section) because it refers to etymology of a different wikipedia article, it should be in an English translation of that page. I'm awaiting consensus, if there is no response I will delete. WP: RELEVANCE Albertinon ( talk) 19:27, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
Hi. I am in the midst of compiling a few studies, based on the nature and results of the studies, I would like to make three subheadings in Off the derech#reasons_for_leaving;
~Influential narratives - this would show results of studies that have found circumstances such as exposure to mass media, OTD siblings etc that contribute to disaffiliation
~Causes and Reasons/rationales - this would be much like the current list, but a FULL list, compiled from alll the studies, with references by each and every item
sub sub header~Categorizations - various ways that the researchers categorized the given reasons, e.g. intellectual, emotional, implementational; push pull; +;
~Psychology in decision to leave - this would show the psychology in the active decision to dissafiliate, found by sociologist and psychologist researchers, such as immigrant theory, etc
I am currently working on this, and expect fellow editors to react asap to avoid conflict.
I appreciate. Albertinon ( talk) 20:50, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
there is a lot of information that doesn't flow so well. it's sourced, but it should read better. Albertinon ( talk) 19:47, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
The article uses the term "יציאה בשאלה" directly in the original Hebrew script; would it be possible to transliterate it for those of us who cannot read that script? Automated tools come up with "Ytzh vshlh", "yṣyʾh bšʾlh" and similar which (obviously) are missing vowels; can we have something more readable for English speakers? — The Anome ( talk) 09:57, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
Albertinon ( talk) 11:54, 9 August 2023 (UTC)This phenomenon, often referred to in North America as going “Off the Derech” (Off the Path, OTD).The Hebrew term Yetzia BeShe’ela, literally translated as “exiting with questions” is built as a “counter” name to “Hazara Be’Teshuvah,” used to describe non-Orthodox individuals joining Haredi groups.
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||
|
![]() | The contents of the Ex-Haredim page were merged into Off the derech on 12/29/2015. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
Should be deleted. Not neutral.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Pualsonese ( talk • contribs)
Completed merger from Ex-Haredim page. This page still needs a lot of work. Please help edit and expand. Lokshin kugel ( talk) 21:50, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
It seems to me a very notable topic. It has received coverage by most major orthodox Jewish publication plus a book by this name has been published. User:Pualsonese has a good point that the article must be NPOV. Joe407 ( talk) 11:02, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
This article should belong in Urban Dictionary, not on Wikipedia. 2.124.207.31 ( talk) 22:47, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
Absolutely not. This article references a significant sociological shift. Lokshin kugel ( talk) 21:12, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
We should add about Jews who went "off the Derech" throughout History. There are many publications about that - some also focus on the "problems" these caused to the Religious communities. Take Russia for example. The problem is that it is very difficult to find valid reputable sources for this topic in general. Caseeart ( talk) 06:29, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
I will link some wiki pages Lokshin kugel ( talk) 21:12, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
@Sir Joseph: You are at it again. Please do not wipe pages at your discretion because you decide what is and isn't worthy of being on the page. Your job is to ask for sources, not to delete. You are expected to give time for editors to find sources to material.
Your deletion of the list of books as per Wikipedia:External links directory issues is wrong. That page specifically mentions external links. This is not a listing of external links.
If you continue to run through pages deleting without first asking for consensus I will be forced to report you. Lokshin kugel ( talk) 21:09, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
Please add the list of books back into the article. They are all prominent and notable. It is not an endless list, but a fitting bibliography of the genre. Lokshin kugel ( talk) 22:43, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
I will be reverting it. If you want to synthesize it with read also, that is fine. But removing information you simply don't like is not bold, its censorship. If you have an issue, bring it up on the talk page and wait for consensus. Otherwise, please show me your exact source which says WP is not a directory of books. Lokshin kugel ( talk) 23:41, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
From BOLD, revert, discuss cycle:
The list of notable people who became less or non-religious is IMHO indiscriminate/not relevant to the article, since that fact is not the reason these people are notable. I would understand a list of people notable for becoming less or not religious, like Spinoza (just that he changed to Christianity, so he doesn't really fit the criteria either). I propose to remove the present list from this article. Debresser ( talk) 15:49, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
It looks as if "Off the derech" (="off the path") is a more Haredi term? In Israel they seem to self-identify as "Yotzim" (="leaving") link
Should we perhaps move this article to "Yotzim"? Huldra ( talk) 23:22, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
I stripped all the External Links from the resources section since it was starting to look like a directory and EL. The main section has what resources are available, I don't think we need to list all resources. We have Footsteps and Makom and then mention FB groups, as well as others are available. Once we start listing more, we then have issues with determining what to include, and of course, EL and DIRECTORY. Sir Joseph (talk) 00:01, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
Is this not a more accurate description? it will also possibly help to shorten the whole section...
“Off the Derech is a modern expression meaning one who left a traditional-Orthodox Jewish lifestyle and embraced a non-observant or less-observant one” (Green, 2017). source: Nancy Steinberg's study. Albertinon ( talk) 22:30, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
WP: RELEVANCE Victims within the Ultra-Orthodox community and their families reporting sexual abuse to authorities, are said to often be shunned and quietened by community members and leaders.
Perhaps we can move it to legal Battles (in "communities response") Albertinon ( talk) 10:01, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
WP:CHERRYPICKING Albertinon ( talk) 00:13, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
Wouldn't that be "shmad" ? Almost sure one who leaves to another religion will not be called OTD by orthodox people unless they're unaware of his new religion. and the person themselves, would they refer to themselves as OTD if they have a new religious identity? highly doubtful. I recommend removing "other religions" from intro. Albertinon ( talk) 08:07, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
I'm trying to work out why contributors/editors have given so much weight to her book. it is at best insightful, and at worst possibly delusional. it is not academic research. anyone? Albertinon ( talk) 16:06, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
Hi, If possible please review two new pieces I added to the lead section. Edit if needed for [WP:MOS]. Albertinon ( talk) 20:02, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
I have hidden this paragraph (terminology section) because it refers to etymology of a different wikipedia article, it should be in an English translation of that page. I'm awaiting consensus, if there is no response I will delete. WP: RELEVANCE Albertinon ( talk) 19:27, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
Hi. I am in the midst of compiling a few studies, based on the nature and results of the studies, I would like to make three subheadings in Off the derech#reasons_for_leaving;
~Influential narratives - this would show results of studies that have found circumstances such as exposure to mass media, OTD siblings etc that contribute to disaffiliation
~Causes and Reasons/rationales - this would be much like the current list, but a FULL list, compiled from alll the studies, with references by each and every item
sub sub header~Categorizations - various ways that the researchers categorized the given reasons, e.g. intellectual, emotional, implementational; push pull; +;
~Psychology in decision to leave - this would show the psychology in the active decision to dissafiliate, found by sociologist and psychologist researchers, such as immigrant theory, etc
I am currently working on this, and expect fellow editors to react asap to avoid conflict.
I appreciate. Albertinon ( talk) 20:50, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
there is a lot of information that doesn't flow so well. it's sourced, but it should read better. Albertinon ( talk) 19:47, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
The article uses the term "יציאה בשאלה" directly in the original Hebrew script; would it be possible to transliterate it for those of us who cannot read that script? Automated tools come up with "Ytzh vshlh", "yṣyʾh bšʾlh" and similar which (obviously) are missing vowels; can we have something more readable for English speakers? — The Anome ( talk) 09:57, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
Albertinon ( talk) 11:54, 9 August 2023 (UTC)This phenomenon, often referred to in North America as going “Off the Derech” (Off the Path, OTD).The Hebrew term Yetzia BeShe’ela, literally translated as “exiting with questions” is built as a “counter” name to “Hazara Be’Teshuvah,” used to describe non-Orthodox individuals joining Haredi groups.