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Calling him far-left, especially by sources critical of him, can't be put in Wikipedias voice in the lead. Please mind NPOV on this BLP article. It should be attributed and in context. So something like "After Cassifs criticism of Israel, many commentators have considered his positions to be 'far-left'".VRtalk 14:18, 11 January 2024 (UTC)reply
Not really seeing the issue here.
Bezalel Smotrich is rightly referred to as far-right in his bio, so not sure why the equivalent wouldn't be done here. Cassif is a representative of the Communist Party, so this isn't really a disputed label. Cheers,
Number57 14:39, 11 January 2024 (UTC)reply
Yes it is. Other sources describe him as merely "left-wing"
[1][2] or "leftist"
[3][4]. VRtalk 14:53, 11 January 2024 (UTC)reply
As far as I can see, only the MSNBC actually labels Cassif himself; the others refer to Hadash. And similarly, one can also find sources describing Smotrich as only "right-wing"
[5][6][7]
I appreciate far-left is often used as an insult (there were many attempts to label Meretz as far-left on here), but it really shouldn't be an issue to label a Communist politician as such, and there is a false equivalence in labelling Smotrich but not Cassif.
Number57 15:10, 11 January 2024 (UTC)reply
Admittedly, there are far more sources on Cassif's party, the Hadash, than there are on Cassif himself. Here are some more sources that directly call Cassif a "leftist"
[8][9][10][11][12].
I'm not going to start a discussion there, as I feel Smotrich is correctly labelled. I am concerned about the poor rationale for removing what should be an uncontroversial label here.
Number57 15:56, 11 January 2024 (UTC)reply
Also if Cassif is a communist, first that should be added to the article, and second a communist label is more specific than far-left. But is he a communist? VRtalk 16:05, 11 January 2024 (UTC)reply
Yes, he
is a member of
Maki. It mentions in the Al Jazeera source you cite above that he is a "proud communist".
Number57 16:10, 11 January 2024 (UTC)reply
In that communist would be much more specific. Far-left, per our own wiki page, is ambiguous. VRtalk 16:54, 12 January 2024 (UTC)reply
There's no issue here. Far-left is not an insult or the opinion of opposing commentators, which would be
WP:UNDUE. It's a phrase that multiple RS -- from across the political spectrum -- use to precisely describe his political positions. Compared to center-left parties like
Yesh Atid and
Labor, Cassif is much further to the left.
Besides, it's completely uncontroversial to label the communist party a "far left" party in any country. This is the same at
Bezalel Smotrich,
Itamar Ben-Gvir (for which we use even fewer RS to make the case). If one is to make the case for more big-tent terms such as "left-wing" here, then I would expect them to also make the case on other pages where "far-right" or "far-left" is used; otherwise, we're treading into
WP:NPOV territory.
Here's
Haaretz -- a left-wing, progressive paper of record -- also using "far-left":
[13]. Here's
Dawn News, a Pakistani paper that is not the most Zionist, also using "far-left":
[14]. Here's
The Messenger, a centrist, non-Israeli website,also using "far-left":
[15]Longhornsg (
talk) 19:43, 11 January 2024 (UTC)reply
And no, he did not "become far-left" by being 1 of 120 Knesset members to support South Africa's ICJ case. There's plenty of souring, including from Haaretz, using that term for many years.
Longhornsg (
talk) 19:47, 11 January 2024 (UTC)reply
Quote about being a conscientious objector is not impartial.
During the First Intifada, he went to military prison four times as a conscientious objector, for "refusing to oppress the Palestinians, to take part in the oppression and occupation of the Palestinians."
I believe it would be best to reword the idea by removing the quote to maintain
WP:IMPARTIAL. The sentence can explain why he was a conscientious objector without including his opinion on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
Cassif was sent to military prison four times as a conscientious objector during the First Intifada.
Unbandito, I invite your opinion on this since you were the last person to touch this section.
Babyblasphemy (
talk) 01:09, 1 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Seems like a clear improvement to me.
IOHANNVSVERVS (
talk) 04:37, 1 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I do think that in order to explain why he was a conscientious objector, we need to include his opinion on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, insofar as it is relevant to his decision not to serve in the IDF. In this case, I felt that the most concise and honest way to explain why he was a conscientious objector was to include a quote from the article where he explains his objection to military service. There might be some way to say it without quoting him directly, but you would end up basically reproducing the quote anyway.
Unbandito (
talk) 05:36, 1 June 2024 (UTC)reply
We are clearly indicating this is Cassif's opinion and are not making the statement in Wikivoice. It seems reasonable to include his opinion is his own bio. We quote Cassif and others elsewhere in his bio, such as calling Ayelet Shaked "neo-Nazi scum", "I object to the ideology and practice of Zionism... it's a racist ideology and practice which espouses Jewish supremacy", calling the Israeli government "fascist", "... a government whose members and its coalition are calling for ethnic cleansing and even actual genocide ...".
Burrobert (
talk) 09:41, 1 June 2024 (UTC)reply
It may be clear to you that is is only Cassif's opinion, but I feel we could do better at emphasizing that. The seamless transition into the quote indicates to me that the quote has more weight than it is due. Perhaps something like so may be a better middle ground:
During the First Intifada, he was sent to military prison four times as a conscientious objector for what he described as "refusing to oppress the Palestinians, to take part in the oppression and occupation of the Palestinians."Babyblasphemy (
talk) 02:28, 2 June 2024 (UTC)reply
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or
poorly sourcedmust be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially
libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to
this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Israel, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Israel on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IsraelWikipedia:WikiProject IsraelTemplate:WikiProject IsraelIsrael-related articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
politics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to
join the project and
contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the
documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Socialism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
socialism on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SocialismWikipedia:WikiProject SocialismTemplate:WikiProject Socialismsocialism articles
Calling him far-left, especially by sources critical of him, can't be put in Wikipedias voice in the lead. Please mind NPOV on this BLP article. It should be attributed and in context. So something like "After Cassifs criticism of Israel, many commentators have considered his positions to be 'far-left'".VRtalk 14:18, 11 January 2024 (UTC)reply
Not really seeing the issue here.
Bezalel Smotrich is rightly referred to as far-right in his bio, so not sure why the equivalent wouldn't be done here. Cassif is a representative of the Communist Party, so this isn't really a disputed label. Cheers,
Number57 14:39, 11 January 2024 (UTC)reply
Yes it is. Other sources describe him as merely "left-wing"
[1][2] or "leftist"
[3][4]. VRtalk 14:53, 11 January 2024 (UTC)reply
As far as I can see, only the MSNBC actually labels Cassif himself; the others refer to Hadash. And similarly, one can also find sources describing Smotrich as only "right-wing"
[5][6][7]
I appreciate far-left is often used as an insult (there were many attempts to label Meretz as far-left on here), but it really shouldn't be an issue to label a Communist politician as such, and there is a false equivalence in labelling Smotrich but not Cassif.
Number57 15:10, 11 January 2024 (UTC)reply
Admittedly, there are far more sources on Cassif's party, the Hadash, than there are on Cassif himself. Here are some more sources that directly call Cassif a "leftist"
[8][9][10][11][12].
I'm not going to start a discussion there, as I feel Smotrich is correctly labelled. I am concerned about the poor rationale for removing what should be an uncontroversial label here.
Number57 15:56, 11 January 2024 (UTC)reply
Also if Cassif is a communist, first that should be added to the article, and second a communist label is more specific than far-left. But is he a communist? VRtalk 16:05, 11 January 2024 (UTC)reply
Yes, he
is a member of
Maki. It mentions in the Al Jazeera source you cite above that he is a "proud communist".
Number57 16:10, 11 January 2024 (UTC)reply
In that communist would be much more specific. Far-left, per our own wiki page, is ambiguous. VRtalk 16:54, 12 January 2024 (UTC)reply
There's no issue here. Far-left is not an insult or the opinion of opposing commentators, which would be
WP:UNDUE. It's a phrase that multiple RS -- from across the political spectrum -- use to precisely describe his political positions. Compared to center-left parties like
Yesh Atid and
Labor, Cassif is much further to the left.
Besides, it's completely uncontroversial to label the communist party a "far left" party in any country. This is the same at
Bezalel Smotrich,
Itamar Ben-Gvir (for which we use even fewer RS to make the case). If one is to make the case for more big-tent terms such as "left-wing" here, then I would expect them to also make the case on other pages where "far-right" or "far-left" is used; otherwise, we're treading into
WP:NPOV territory.
Here's
Haaretz -- a left-wing, progressive paper of record -- also using "far-left":
[13]. Here's
Dawn News, a Pakistani paper that is not the most Zionist, also using "far-left":
[14]. Here's
The Messenger, a centrist, non-Israeli website,also using "far-left":
[15]Longhornsg (
talk) 19:43, 11 January 2024 (UTC)reply
And no, he did not "become far-left" by being 1 of 120 Knesset members to support South Africa's ICJ case. There's plenty of souring, including from Haaretz, using that term for many years.
Longhornsg (
talk) 19:47, 11 January 2024 (UTC)reply
Quote about being a conscientious objector is not impartial.
During the First Intifada, he went to military prison four times as a conscientious objector, for "refusing to oppress the Palestinians, to take part in the oppression and occupation of the Palestinians."
I believe it would be best to reword the idea by removing the quote to maintain
WP:IMPARTIAL. The sentence can explain why he was a conscientious objector without including his opinion on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
Cassif was sent to military prison four times as a conscientious objector during the First Intifada.
Unbandito, I invite your opinion on this since you were the last person to touch this section.
Babyblasphemy (
talk) 01:09, 1 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Seems like a clear improvement to me.
IOHANNVSVERVS (
talk) 04:37, 1 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I do think that in order to explain why he was a conscientious objector, we need to include his opinion on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, insofar as it is relevant to his decision not to serve in the IDF. In this case, I felt that the most concise and honest way to explain why he was a conscientious objector was to include a quote from the article where he explains his objection to military service. There might be some way to say it without quoting him directly, but you would end up basically reproducing the quote anyway.
Unbandito (
talk) 05:36, 1 June 2024 (UTC)reply
We are clearly indicating this is Cassif's opinion and are not making the statement in Wikivoice. It seems reasonable to include his opinion is his own bio. We quote Cassif and others elsewhere in his bio, such as calling Ayelet Shaked "neo-Nazi scum", "I object to the ideology and practice of Zionism... it's a racist ideology and practice which espouses Jewish supremacy", calling the Israeli government "fascist", "... a government whose members and its coalition are calling for ethnic cleansing and even actual genocide ...".
Burrobert (
talk) 09:41, 1 June 2024 (UTC)reply
It may be clear to you that is is only Cassif's opinion, but I feel we could do better at emphasizing that. The seamless transition into the quote indicates to me that the quote has more weight than it is due. Perhaps something like so may be a better middle ground:
During the First Intifada, he was sent to military prison four times as a conscientious objector for what he described as "refusing to oppress the Palestinians, to take part in the oppression and occupation of the Palestinians."Babyblasphemy (
talk) 02:28, 2 June 2024 (UTC)reply