This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 |
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Much as Cliven Bundy is a redirect to Bundy standoff, this should be restored as a redirect. Ammon Bundy is not notable outside of this event, making this fail WP:BLP1E. – Muboshgu ( talk) 19:30, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
*Support - Definitely a
WP:BLP1E issue with this one.
Parsley Man (
talk) 19:43, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
I see Ammon Bundy on the news every day. Not just on the local news, but on the national news as well. MB298 ( talk) 19:58, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
:If he's on the news "every day", then how come those other newsworthy events aren't on his page?
littlebum2002 17:01, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
Tasering incident discussion - Here's some more information about the tasering: [12] [13][http://www.wnd.com/2014/04/feds-charged-with-killing-cattle-in-nevada-range-war/] [14] - My point is, Bundy is not merely known for this one event, but for several events both during and prior to the occupation. This isn't about a local business owner or someone who was robbed in some small town in Oklahoma or Kansas. MB298 ( talk) 00:34, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
WP:BLP1E does not apply per WP:LOWPROFILE.
The guidelines in WP:BLP1E are clear and require 3 criteria to qualify. I think a lot of people are misreading them so I'm going to paste them here.
"We should generally avoid having an article on a person when each of three conditions is met:
The significance of an event or individual is indicated by how persistent the coverage is in reliable sources. It is important for editors to understand two clear differentiations of the People notable for only one event guideline (WP:BIO1E) when compared with this policy (WP:BLP1E): WP:BLP1E should be applied only to biographies of living people and to biographies of low-profile individuals."
Ammon Bundy may meet criterion 1, depending on future events. Is anyone here going to claim that he somehow fits 2 or 3? That he is currently, or is likely to remain, a low-profile individual given his penchant for daily press conferences and driving cross-country looking for hotspots to inject himself into? Likewise that his role is "not substantial" or "not well documented" in this event, given the amount of press coverage ongoing and again, his own daily press conferences?
I submit that none can. Therefore we need to look to WP:LOWPROFILE.
"Media attention High-profile: Has given one or more scheduled interviews to a notable publication, website, or television or radio program, as a "media personality" (a.k.a. "public face" or "big name"), a self-described "expert", or some other ostensibly (or would-be) notable commentator. Need not be a "household name", simply self-promotional. May ostensibly represent an employer or other group, but is clearly self-representing as well."
"Promotional activities High-profile: Has voluntarily participated in self-publicity activities, such as press conferences, promotional appearances, book signings, and the like; and/or has participated in an attention-seeking manner in publicity for some other concern, such as a cause, election campaign or commercial endorsee."
I submit that Ammon Bundy is a "High Profile Individual", likely to remain such for a significant time, and as such WP:BLP1E does not apply. Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz ( talk) 19:02, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
Is there perhaps enough newsworthy information to make an article about the Bundy family as a whole, that the various family members can be redirected to? Or does that violate a guideline I'm not aware of? Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz ( talk) 02:51, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
Changed my mind per above. "WP:BLP1E should be applied only to biographies of living people and to biographies of low-profile individuals." Ammon Bundy does not qualify as a low-profile individual as he actively seeks out media attention, per WP:LOWPROFILE. Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz ( talk) 18:44, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
I think they each deserve their own article, as each has generated independent and extensive media coverage. But as a compromise, I would rather see Ammon and Cliven get a new joint article (as they are very much of the same ideology) rather than Ammon merged with this siege (which is only one event and most likely not the last we will hear of Ammon. So, with an eye toward the future I would like to see articles for each of the siege, Cliven, and Ammon. CaseyPenk ( talk) 03:27, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
On a side note, Ammon Bundy has been viewed nearly 20,000 times since its creation. MB298 ( talk) 04:28, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
As of this timestamp, there are roughly 11 "Oppose" votes and 7 "Support". MB298 ( talk) 04:22, 1 February 2016 (UTC)
As the standoff is now over, it's just about time for that to be inserted. MB298 ( talk) 20:17, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/house-bill/4431/text?format=txt In section 2 of this bill introduced by Representative Earl Blumenauer, it says the occupiers would pay for the occupation if passed. Think this bill should be mentioned. 104.34.250.89 ( talk) 02:14, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Should flag icons, where available, be used for the rump militias involved in this, as per other civil conflict infoboxes such as Waco Siege?
That's no consensus but it is quite close. Partly in view of request of 1 yes-vote to if we remove, to do so on both sides (and since there are now flags only on one side), it seems there is consensus in this situation to remove flags; so I will proceed wit that. L.tak ( talk) 21:00, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
LavaBaron ( talk) 04:22, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
MB298 ( talk) 02:43, 1 February 2016 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
(De-archived MB298 ( talk) 16:21, 11 February 2016 (UTC))
Notable only for a single event. Bueller 007 ( talk) 07:15, 30 January 2016 (UTC) (Copied from the talk page at Ryan Payne)
Looks like there is room for a Post Occupation section going forward. Since the occupation itself is over, any further developments should be in a new section titled Post Occupation or something similar. A start in the post occupation article would be on Cliven Bundy's request for a court appointed attorney. Leitmotiv ( talk) 20:44, 14 February 2016 (UTC)
I propose archiving the "RfC: Rump Militia" section of this talk page soon, as I do not know how to remove the "Do Not Archive" code. -- Jax 0677 ( talk) 20:21, 17 February 2016 (UTC)
In the video, after quickly exiting the cab crew pickup, Finicum strides rapidly in deep snow up the embankment toward the woods. He does not raise his hands above shoulder height, turns twice from first facing the woods, where there is an approaching LEO holding a long gun in his left hand, and to the road where three blocking vehicles led to his unsuccessful attempt to pass them on his left in deep snow that has drifted into a roadside ditch. Activist ( talk) 01:57, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
The category is still being discussed here, if anyone wants to participate. MB298 ( talk) 02:53, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
Michelle Fiore, a publicity seeking Nevada legislator, passed along a hearsay comment about Finicum's death which she had gotten from the wife of Ammon Bundy, who was not present at the shooting, but who had heard of the circumstances from Ammon, who was also not present at the shooting. That's hearsay 3x removed, and doesn't seem worthy of inclusion, so I deleted it. I retained the citation, however. Activist ( talk) 19:39, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
Someone else might be interested in working these in;
NewsAndEventsGuy ( talk) 23:46, 18 February 2016 (UTC)
Can an FLDS affiliate pls pipe up and suggest that the free stuff / "gimmedats" should be more than just free land, and include as many wives as possible? Just not federal ones. And at least until the Lord blesses them with child. Tah 209.181.53.62 ( talk) 17:25, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
There is much inconsistency throughout this article on whether the son of Dwight Hammond is known as Steve or Steven. It originally was Steve, but someone came through a while back and changed it to Steven in some places but not all. MB298 ( talk) 05:09, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
Please see Template talk:Malheur National Wildlife Refuge to discuss which entries belong in Template:Malheur National Wildlife Refuge. --- Another Believer ( Talk) 15:28, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
I have added that Finicum was Killed In Action, as it is similar to events such as the Waco Siege which designate others Killed in Action in similar circumstances. 06:37, 9 March 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.164.22.36 ( talk)
Cellphone video Leitmotiv ( talk) 04:54, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
This article is over 100 kB, and should be split. I propose splitting this page to three new articles entitled:
-- Jax 0677 ( talk) 20:21, 17 February 2016 (UTC)
Reply - @ Muboshgu:, Fire Away! -- Jax 0677 ( talk) 20:50, 17 February 2016 (UTC)
So far we have 6 votes opposed and 3 supporting. No new entries in 5 days. I had a go to remove the split tag earlier, but that was reverted. Anyone feel a need to weigh in? This discussion has been ongoing for 3+ weeks. Seems time to wrap it up to me.
Possums (
talk) 16:25, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
GOP Politicians Planned and Participated in Key Aspects of Refuge Occupation Leitmotiv ( talk) 16:58, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
The narrative flow needs some work. There seems to be 2 or 3 accounts presented. TomS TDotO ( talk) 05:22, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
What else could we do to get rid of that Template:2L tag? I've done as much condensing and reorganization as I could, but nothing else seems to stand out as needing condensing or division. Parsley Man ( talk) 19:18, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
The actual text = 126 kb, more or less. Note that per WP:SIZERULE articles should be under 100kb, but we don't count image captions, table of contents, refs, see also section etc. Just the text. Right now, the text (and image captions) runs around 126 kb. So the article isn't as crazy as some are saying when they cite the markup size which is around 200kb. Nonetheless, it still needs paring. For one thing, I see no important reason to keep the table of individual charges. NewsAndEventsGuy ( talk) 15:35, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
In my sandbox is the beginning skeleton of a potential Hammond arson case article. Most of it is just copy-and-pasted from the main occupation article, but if we use my material and replace everything in said main article with basic summaries and such, it should be fine. What do you guys think? Parsley Man ( talk) 22:31, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
@ Leitmotiv: @ Jax 0677: @ NewsAndEventsGuy: Are you there? I am really considering creating that arson case article and I would like someone to review what I have right now in my sandbox to see if it's okay. Parsley Man ( talk) 05:51, 23 March 2016 (UTC)
Does anybody know why I was pinged to this weird page, or was it a ghost in the machine? - Roxy the dog™ woof 12:21, 23 March 2016 (UTC)
Considering how long this article is and the efforts to shorten it, I doubt there is an encyclopedic need to know the names of each militant involved and the specific charges they face. Any of that is already covered in the main articles for Ammon Bundy and Jon Ritzheimer. I suggest a complete removal of that table. Parsley Man ( talk) 21:36, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
There are now 9 articles related to this subject, so I think a category could be recreated. MB298 ( talk) 00:54, 26 April 2016 (UTC)
@ Another Believer: and @ Parsley Man: – It has expanded to ten by now; so this current one, as well as the timeline and reactions articles, the Hammond arson case, 3 Percenters, C4CF, Ammon (and possibly Cliven) Bundy, LaVoy Finicum, Jon Ritzheimer, and David Ward. MB298 ( talk) 23:25, 7 June 2016 (UTC)
Article recreation has been done. Over a month late, but it's still done. Parsley Man ( talk) 02:46, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
Well, I just did a huge overhaul of the article so I could create an actual article on the Hammond arson case. I do hope that was okay. No hard feelings if lots of fixes are made or if my changes are ultimately undone. Parsley Man ( talk) 18:51, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 |
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Much as Cliven Bundy is a redirect to Bundy standoff, this should be restored as a redirect. Ammon Bundy is not notable outside of this event, making this fail WP:BLP1E. – Muboshgu ( talk) 19:30, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
*Support - Definitely a
WP:BLP1E issue with this one.
Parsley Man (
talk) 19:43, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
I see Ammon Bundy on the news every day. Not just on the local news, but on the national news as well. MB298 ( talk) 19:58, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
:If he's on the news "every day", then how come those other newsworthy events aren't on his page?
littlebum2002 17:01, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
Tasering incident discussion - Here's some more information about the tasering: [12] [13][http://www.wnd.com/2014/04/feds-charged-with-killing-cattle-in-nevada-range-war/] [14] - My point is, Bundy is not merely known for this one event, but for several events both during and prior to the occupation. This isn't about a local business owner or someone who was robbed in some small town in Oklahoma or Kansas. MB298 ( talk) 00:34, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
WP:BLP1E does not apply per WP:LOWPROFILE.
The guidelines in WP:BLP1E are clear and require 3 criteria to qualify. I think a lot of people are misreading them so I'm going to paste them here.
"We should generally avoid having an article on a person when each of three conditions is met:
The significance of an event or individual is indicated by how persistent the coverage is in reliable sources. It is important for editors to understand two clear differentiations of the People notable for only one event guideline (WP:BIO1E) when compared with this policy (WP:BLP1E): WP:BLP1E should be applied only to biographies of living people and to biographies of low-profile individuals."
Ammon Bundy may meet criterion 1, depending on future events. Is anyone here going to claim that he somehow fits 2 or 3? That he is currently, or is likely to remain, a low-profile individual given his penchant for daily press conferences and driving cross-country looking for hotspots to inject himself into? Likewise that his role is "not substantial" or "not well documented" in this event, given the amount of press coverage ongoing and again, his own daily press conferences?
I submit that none can. Therefore we need to look to WP:LOWPROFILE.
"Media attention High-profile: Has given one or more scheduled interviews to a notable publication, website, or television or radio program, as a "media personality" (a.k.a. "public face" or "big name"), a self-described "expert", or some other ostensibly (or would-be) notable commentator. Need not be a "household name", simply self-promotional. May ostensibly represent an employer or other group, but is clearly self-representing as well."
"Promotional activities High-profile: Has voluntarily participated in self-publicity activities, such as press conferences, promotional appearances, book signings, and the like; and/or has participated in an attention-seeking manner in publicity for some other concern, such as a cause, election campaign or commercial endorsee."
I submit that Ammon Bundy is a "High Profile Individual", likely to remain such for a significant time, and as such WP:BLP1E does not apply. Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz ( talk) 19:02, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
Is there perhaps enough newsworthy information to make an article about the Bundy family as a whole, that the various family members can be redirected to? Or does that violate a guideline I'm not aware of? Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz ( talk) 02:51, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
Changed my mind per above. "WP:BLP1E should be applied only to biographies of living people and to biographies of low-profile individuals." Ammon Bundy does not qualify as a low-profile individual as he actively seeks out media attention, per WP:LOWPROFILE. Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz ( talk) 18:44, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
I think they each deserve their own article, as each has generated independent and extensive media coverage. But as a compromise, I would rather see Ammon and Cliven get a new joint article (as they are very much of the same ideology) rather than Ammon merged with this siege (which is only one event and most likely not the last we will hear of Ammon. So, with an eye toward the future I would like to see articles for each of the siege, Cliven, and Ammon. CaseyPenk ( talk) 03:27, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
On a side note, Ammon Bundy has been viewed nearly 20,000 times since its creation. MB298 ( talk) 04:28, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
As of this timestamp, there are roughly 11 "Oppose" votes and 7 "Support". MB298 ( talk) 04:22, 1 February 2016 (UTC)
As the standoff is now over, it's just about time for that to be inserted. MB298 ( talk) 20:17, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/house-bill/4431/text?format=txt In section 2 of this bill introduced by Representative Earl Blumenauer, it says the occupiers would pay for the occupation if passed. Think this bill should be mentioned. 104.34.250.89 ( talk) 02:14, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Should flag icons, where available, be used for the rump militias involved in this, as per other civil conflict infoboxes such as Waco Siege?
That's no consensus but it is quite close. Partly in view of request of 1 yes-vote to if we remove, to do so on both sides (and since there are now flags only on one side), it seems there is consensus in this situation to remove flags; so I will proceed wit that. L.tak ( talk) 21:00, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
LavaBaron ( talk) 04:22, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
MB298 ( talk) 02:43, 1 February 2016 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
(De-archived MB298 ( talk) 16:21, 11 February 2016 (UTC))
Notable only for a single event. Bueller 007 ( talk) 07:15, 30 January 2016 (UTC) (Copied from the talk page at Ryan Payne)
Looks like there is room for a Post Occupation section going forward. Since the occupation itself is over, any further developments should be in a new section titled Post Occupation or something similar. A start in the post occupation article would be on Cliven Bundy's request for a court appointed attorney. Leitmotiv ( talk) 20:44, 14 February 2016 (UTC)
I propose archiving the "RfC: Rump Militia" section of this talk page soon, as I do not know how to remove the "Do Not Archive" code. -- Jax 0677 ( talk) 20:21, 17 February 2016 (UTC)
In the video, after quickly exiting the cab crew pickup, Finicum strides rapidly in deep snow up the embankment toward the woods. He does not raise his hands above shoulder height, turns twice from first facing the woods, where there is an approaching LEO holding a long gun in his left hand, and to the road where three blocking vehicles led to his unsuccessful attempt to pass them on his left in deep snow that has drifted into a roadside ditch. Activist ( talk) 01:57, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
The category is still being discussed here, if anyone wants to participate. MB298 ( talk) 02:53, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
Michelle Fiore, a publicity seeking Nevada legislator, passed along a hearsay comment about Finicum's death which she had gotten from the wife of Ammon Bundy, who was not present at the shooting, but who had heard of the circumstances from Ammon, who was also not present at the shooting. That's hearsay 3x removed, and doesn't seem worthy of inclusion, so I deleted it. I retained the citation, however. Activist ( talk) 19:39, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
Someone else might be interested in working these in;
NewsAndEventsGuy ( talk) 23:46, 18 February 2016 (UTC)
Can an FLDS affiliate pls pipe up and suggest that the free stuff / "gimmedats" should be more than just free land, and include as many wives as possible? Just not federal ones. And at least until the Lord blesses them with child. Tah 209.181.53.62 ( talk) 17:25, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
There is much inconsistency throughout this article on whether the son of Dwight Hammond is known as Steve or Steven. It originally was Steve, but someone came through a while back and changed it to Steven in some places but not all. MB298 ( talk) 05:09, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
Please see Template talk:Malheur National Wildlife Refuge to discuss which entries belong in Template:Malheur National Wildlife Refuge. --- Another Believer ( Talk) 15:28, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
I have added that Finicum was Killed In Action, as it is similar to events such as the Waco Siege which designate others Killed in Action in similar circumstances. 06:37, 9 March 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.164.22.36 ( talk)
Cellphone video Leitmotiv ( talk) 04:54, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
This article is over 100 kB, and should be split. I propose splitting this page to three new articles entitled:
-- Jax 0677 ( talk) 20:21, 17 February 2016 (UTC)
Reply - @ Muboshgu:, Fire Away! -- Jax 0677 ( talk) 20:50, 17 February 2016 (UTC)
So far we have 6 votes opposed and 3 supporting. No new entries in 5 days. I had a go to remove the split tag earlier, but that was reverted. Anyone feel a need to weigh in? This discussion has been ongoing for 3+ weeks. Seems time to wrap it up to me.
Possums (
talk) 16:25, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
GOP Politicians Planned and Participated in Key Aspects of Refuge Occupation Leitmotiv ( talk) 16:58, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
The narrative flow needs some work. There seems to be 2 or 3 accounts presented. TomS TDotO ( talk) 05:22, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
What else could we do to get rid of that Template:2L tag? I've done as much condensing and reorganization as I could, but nothing else seems to stand out as needing condensing or division. Parsley Man ( talk) 19:18, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
The actual text = 126 kb, more or less. Note that per WP:SIZERULE articles should be under 100kb, but we don't count image captions, table of contents, refs, see also section etc. Just the text. Right now, the text (and image captions) runs around 126 kb. So the article isn't as crazy as some are saying when they cite the markup size which is around 200kb. Nonetheless, it still needs paring. For one thing, I see no important reason to keep the table of individual charges. NewsAndEventsGuy ( talk) 15:35, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
In my sandbox is the beginning skeleton of a potential Hammond arson case article. Most of it is just copy-and-pasted from the main occupation article, but if we use my material and replace everything in said main article with basic summaries and such, it should be fine. What do you guys think? Parsley Man ( talk) 22:31, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
@ Leitmotiv: @ Jax 0677: @ NewsAndEventsGuy: Are you there? I am really considering creating that arson case article and I would like someone to review what I have right now in my sandbox to see if it's okay. Parsley Man ( talk) 05:51, 23 March 2016 (UTC)
Does anybody know why I was pinged to this weird page, or was it a ghost in the machine? - Roxy the dog™ woof 12:21, 23 March 2016 (UTC)
Considering how long this article is and the efforts to shorten it, I doubt there is an encyclopedic need to know the names of each militant involved and the specific charges they face. Any of that is already covered in the main articles for Ammon Bundy and Jon Ritzheimer. I suggest a complete removal of that table. Parsley Man ( talk) 21:36, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
There are now 9 articles related to this subject, so I think a category could be recreated. MB298 ( talk) 00:54, 26 April 2016 (UTC)
@ Another Believer: and @ Parsley Man: – It has expanded to ten by now; so this current one, as well as the timeline and reactions articles, the Hammond arson case, 3 Percenters, C4CF, Ammon (and possibly Cliven) Bundy, LaVoy Finicum, Jon Ritzheimer, and David Ward. MB298 ( talk) 23:25, 7 June 2016 (UTC)
Article recreation has been done. Over a month late, but it's still done. Parsley Man ( talk) 02:46, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
Well, I just did a huge overhaul of the article so I could create an actual article on the Hammond arson case. I do hope that was okay. No hard feelings if lots of fixes are made or if my changes are ultimately undone. Parsley Man ( talk) 18:51, 2 April 2016 (UTC)