![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 |
"...using bare hands and a Wildcat excavator stolen from the United States Fish and Wildlife Service to rip apart a barbed-wire fence erected by the government at a far end of the vast refuge."
Should the proposal on this Talk page titled "Should we say anything more about Public Lands Privatization and demand feds cede ownership?" be aborted?
Same proposal, cleaned up row labels.
Reflist is here (click show to read)
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http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/01/oregon_standoff_occupiers_remo.html
Please add to list of alleged crimes by the terrorist group. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.121.16.108 ( talk) 18:36, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
Sources are starting to assess the occupation in terms of its focus and impact on the Hammonds sentence. For example,
SOURCE EXCERPTS
Extent of militants focus on Hammonds release
Protest by armed occupation of fed facilities may interfere with Hammonds own efforts to win release
The above is not proposed text, just sources to discuss. I'm uncertain Yes! Magazine is RS, and all of these should probably get inline attrib.
I think these concepts should be added to the article, but am uncertain how they fit with the structure and organization, and so have not attempted to draft text. Your thoughts? Where does this aspect fit? NewsAndEventsGuy ( talk) 01:40, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
References
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtBykFIh0oA (poor quality video). MB298 ( talk) 23:31, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
I've nominated Category:Occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge for deletion. Please feel free to add your two cents to the discussion. ---- Another Believer ( Talk) 22:02, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
Should the proposal on this Talk page titled "Should we say anything more about Public Lands Privatization and demand feds cede ownership?" be aborted? (Note: Someone archived this proposal before we got resolution, de-archiving it here so discussion can continue.)
Same proposal, cleaned up row labels.
Reflist is here (click show to read)
| ||||||||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|
Concern has been expressed that the article is too long and with too much content that is not encyclopaedic, i.e. does not have long-term significance. I think, by and large, we've got the balance about right, but have been trying to trim the article here and there as appropriate. However, others disagree over some of the material removed, so I thought we could consider some of this here. I'll start with what I've chopped and others have re-instated as examples for consideration.
One example is this diff about the PETA stunt sending vegan jerky. I don't think that has any lasting significance. We only included the sex toy stuff along similar lines when there had been more news stories about it. I suggest we drop this, or maybe include it more briefly after the sex toy comments under Reactions.
Another example is this diff: I removed various bits here, so this is more complicated. To explain some of my edits, I don't think the exact timings of most items matter. Why do we care the press conference was at 11am?
There's a part ending "the militants had deployed into defensive positions with elements manning a roadblock, guarding the headquarters entry, and stationed in a fire lookout usually used to watch for forest fires. Additional militiamen occupied the facility's buildings." I deleted everything after "defensive positions": why do the precise details of the defensive positions matter?
Next paragraph, I knocked out a Ward quote. I don't see any need to quote everything he says. There's a subsequent quote saying much the same thing, so I thought this one could go.
There's a later phrase that begins, " U.S. Senator Ron Wyden of Oregon said that he had been briefed by the special agent in charge of the Portland FBI field office and said that" which I chopped. I don't see why it's important that Wyden said this -- that detail is in the cite given if people care.
Overall, details on timings seem unnecessary much of the time; and I think we can cut back on detail in some places as to who said what. If we're confident a report is accurate, we just need to say what is reported, not who said it how. Bondegezou ( talk) 18:20, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
Bondegezou, you need to take the deletionism down a notch and stop trying to take so much out of the article. WP:NOTPAPER, we have room to be detailed, especially as the article is coming together towards a stable form. Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz ( talk) 20:21, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
January 2016 Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31
I've redirected Kenneth Medenbach and Duane Kirkland to this article. MB298 ( talk) 05:11, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
Is there is ongoing discussion regarding the creation of Timeline of the occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge and ways to address the redundancy between the timeline article and the main article? ---- Another Believer ( Talk) 21:45, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
Congratulations on making a bunch of extra work for everyone. I'm going to keep updating information as I can get it and putting up the sources, you figure out what to do with it then. Obviously you think you WP:OWN the article anyways and don't want to actually work with anyone else, Bondegezou. Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz ( talk) 13:25, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
Especially considering that the supposed "moves" constituted section-blanking, removing entirely the January 19-20 area from this article without bothering to leave a summary behind. Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz ( talk) 13:44, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
The two articles are now in a complete mess, I fear! We have a huge amount of redundancy and repetition across both. Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz is adding lots of material here that seems better suited for the Timeline article. There is no point in a Timeline article if people aren't going to use it. Can we either work out what goes where, or abandon the Timeline article? Bondegezou ( talk) 23:58, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
Way to go misrepresenting my comments. Since your stated goal [1] is clearly to allow no discussion and not to bother reaching a consensus but instead to uncivilly browbeat and threaten people until they go away, "NewsAndEventsGuy", fine: fuck you, I give up on this article.
There, you have what you wanted. Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz ( talk) 15:13, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
Here's something worthy but I'm not going to follow up. Any takers?
Many of the Bundy forces are flashing a pocket constitution only their version was published by the National Center for Constitutional Studies and is rife with the personal philosophies of W._Cleon_Skousen. [1] The booklets became a focal point for at least one powerful editorial on the things you can do "with a gun on your hip and a pocket constituition". [2]
NewsAndEventsGuy ( talk) 03:01, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
References
Is Category:Terrorist incidents in the United States in 2016 appropriate for this article? --- Another Believer ( Talk) 16:26, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
This from The Oregonian is a useful run-down of the militants. Bondegezou ( talk) 22:21, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
Hi folks—I came back to this page after half a week and wow, the timeline section is much improved. It reads more like a summary now, with the timeline sub article dedicated to play-by-play detail. I think that's a wonderful balance: one article that walks you through the general outlines and another that gives a minute retelling (similar to the 9/11 and timeline of 9/11 pair). Perhaps the biggest improvement is grouping them by weeks rather than days, and starting to group them by themes rather than one-off events. Would love to see it refined even further. Not sure who worked on this and I know there's been contentions, but credit to everyone who's helped to clean up this article and make it a cohesive narrative. CaseyPenk ( talk) 16:57, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz states his concerns, and notes that he is closing down his involvement with one or two pages, so that people don't expect him to respond. EdJohnston ( talk) 16:31, 25 January 2016 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
So long, and thanks for all the fish! Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz ( talk) 13:44, 25 January 2016 (UTC) |
Comparing the infobox to something like the Waco siege- why is POTUS here and not in there? It seems to be a grossly overstated inclusion without sources. 50.149.81.197 ( talk) 18:18, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
I've reverted NewsAndEventsGuy's edit [2]. He felt that the inclusion was "mocking or sanctifying" with a comment about "confirmation bias."
I disagree wholeheartedly; religion has been a large part of the issue for the militants. It is well studied, with the Boston Globe commenting that the Bundy group's behavior has its roots in Mormon anti-government religious fanaticism. https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2016/01/05/oregon-standoff-has-roots-mormon-fanaticism/QLgIkrNZipFjtbn4AyUZFJ/story.html
Other sources analyze the peculiar member who refuses to be known by anything other than " Captain Moroni", another figure of mormon anti-government fanaticism. http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2016/01/05/why_ammon_bundy_calls_himself_captain_moroni.html
Oregon Public Broadcasting has covered this as well, as has PBS. http://www.opb.org/news/article/explainer-the-bundy-militias-particular-brand-of-mormonism/ http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/why-the-bundy-militia-mixes-mormon-symbolism-with-anti-government-sentiment/
LA Times notes the religious connection too: http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-activists-oregon-20160105-story.html
I could go on with more sources if needed, but suffice to say: the religious connection is well documented and including mention of it is not a matter of "mocking or sanctifying". Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz ( talk) 18:48, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
*Ammon Bundy, a car fleet manager from Phoenix[16] and son of notable anti-government protestor Cliven Bundy and the leader of the group now calling themselves Citizens for Constitutional Freedom, said he began leading the occupation after receiving a divine message ordering him to do so.[17][18] |
While many of the initial militants claim inspiration from Mormonism, later arrivals have drawn from a variety of backgrounds. citation needed |
How about this? "The leader of the group is Ammon Bundy, son of notable anti-government protestor Cliven Bundy. Many of the initial militant group claimed they were inspired by religious fundamentalist interpretations of Mormon scriptures and legends; Bundy claims to have received a direct 'divine message' asking him to begin the occupation."
I suggest moving the wording about the "citizens for constitutional freedom" group lower in the lede, to allow for slightly more detail and to include language noting that the name was not chosen until after other militant groups such as the "Oath Keepers" declined to formally endorse the militant occupation.
Thoughts? Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz ( talk) 20:36, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
It would be helpful if the motivation section gave some motivation more specific than Mormonism. I came to this page to see why they are protesting. What are they upset about? Instead all we say is that they are protesting because they're Mormons. (Or maybe I don't know enough Mormons, but the few I do don't seem to be taking over buildings.) What is their complaint that they amplify with religious rhetoric? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.192.40.100 ( talk) 22:07, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
A new arrest has occured, add it to the section: http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/01/watch_man_seeking_to_join_oreg.html -- Dagko ( talk) 17:20, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
Perhaps something could be said about the law that is being cited in the arrests. This seems to explain it, including the maximum penalty, and it cites some sources for more information. [3] TomS TDotO ( talk) 05:35, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
This category is still being discussed here, if anyone is interested in participating. --- Another Believer ( Talk) 18:22, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
Here is the collage [4] --- Does anyone think it would be possible/worthwhile to upload to commons and then use in the article? -- Somedifferentstuff ( talk) 16:44, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
Good to keep them at hand for if they are convicted, but until then, per BLPCRIME, let's leave them out... L.tak ( talk) 21:47, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
I added the video of Finicum's death. As for the image someone uploaded that was a screengrab of the MNWR where it says "please send birdseed" - this is obviously a joke that was photoshopped. A search for the phrase "please send birdseed" returns no hits in Google News, and the current iteration of the MNWR website doesn't display any similar image, nor does the WayBackMachine show anything that says "please send birdseed" in the last few days. Does anyone object to it being removed? LavaBaron ( talk) 10:47, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
See here and here. Definitely needs to be added to the Arrests section (somewhat relevant to the above discussion). MB298 ( talk) 02:38, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
The word shootout is currently being used in the lede to describe the incident wherein Lavoy Finicum lost his life. The family members are insisting that there was no "shootout," that Finicum was shot with his hands raised. I know that many media sources are also using the term "shootout." Do any of them state specifically that shots were fired by persons on both sides? Michael-Ridgway ( talk) 09:48, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
The following can be found on the Facebook page of Finicum's daughter, Thara Tenney: "I want the world to know how my father was murdered today. His hands were in the air and he was shot in the face by the American authorities. Ammon Bundy reported there are 6 witnesses to this evil." It was posted on January 26, 2016 at 10:47 US Central Time. [6] Michael-Ridgway ( talk) 10:29, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
This post can be seen on the Bundy Ranch Facebook page:
Patricia Anderson Nevada Assemblywoman Michele Fiore said that Ammon Bundy called his wife, Lisa Bundy, from the back of a police car on Tuesday night.
Fiore, a vocal supporter of the Bundy family, said that Ammon Bundy told his wife that Finicum was cooperating with police and had put his hands up. Then, Fiore said, Bundy told his wife that he watched police shoot Finicum three times. She said that Ammon Bundy also said Finicum was on the ground when he was shot.
Finicum on Monday said in a radio blog interview that he sensed heightened activity from federal law enforcement. [7] Michael-Ridgway ( talk) 11:13, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
Lacking high quality RSs about a 2 way "shootout" or "gunfight" I have purged those rumors from article text but have not attempted to add any neutral text based on high quality RSs. Suggest waiting until after police news conf this afternoon. NewsAndEventsGuy ( talk) 15:23, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
The video of the "shootout" has been released. It's time to remove the word "shootout" from this article. There was no shoutout. Michael-Ridgway ( talk) 05:50, 29 January 2016 (UTC) Who wants to describe for our readers what the video actually shows? Michael-Ridgway ( talk) 05:50, 29 January 2016 (UTC) Or shall we run with the headline of the very reliable source, Maxim, which posted an article 28 minutes ago with the title: THE FBI JUST RELEASED FOOTAGE OF THE OREGON MILITIA SHOOTOUT, AND IT'S INTENSE.
From the Atlantic: "Only police fired shots." [8]
/info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2016_January_19#Category:Occupation_of_the_Malheur_National_Wildlife_Refuge (the discussion is still going on). MB298 ( talk) 04:52, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
This has lots of details. Bondegezou ( talk) 11:24, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
Considering how long the "Arrested" portion of the infobox is, does anyone think we should shorten it to just a number? I personally find it unnecessarily long. Parsley Man ( talk) 03:02, 30 January 2016 (UTC)
![]() | This
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Occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
This is EXTREMELY distorted. Lets not pretend that a protesters religion is always the cause and motivation. Everyone in the world already knows from every source out there this is about federal land management policy. 75.174.87.225 ( talk) 10:23, 31 January 2016 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 |
"...using bare hands and a Wildcat excavator stolen from the United States Fish and Wildlife Service to rip apart a barbed-wire fence erected by the government at a far end of the vast refuge."
Should the proposal on this Talk page titled "Should we say anything more about Public Lands Privatization and demand feds cede ownership?" be aborted?
Same proposal, cleaned up row labels.
Reflist is here (click show to read)
| ||||||||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|
http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/01/oregon_standoff_occupiers_remo.html
Please add to list of alleged crimes by the terrorist group. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.121.16.108 ( talk) 18:36, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
Sources are starting to assess the occupation in terms of its focus and impact on the Hammonds sentence. For example,
SOURCE EXCERPTS
Extent of militants focus on Hammonds release
Protest by armed occupation of fed facilities may interfere with Hammonds own efforts to win release
The above is not proposed text, just sources to discuss. I'm uncertain Yes! Magazine is RS, and all of these should probably get inline attrib.
I think these concepts should be added to the article, but am uncertain how they fit with the structure and organization, and so have not attempted to draft text. Your thoughts? Where does this aspect fit? NewsAndEventsGuy ( talk) 01:40, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
References
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtBykFIh0oA (poor quality video). MB298 ( talk) 23:31, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
I've nominated Category:Occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge for deletion. Please feel free to add your two cents to the discussion. ---- Another Believer ( Talk) 22:02, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
Should the proposal on this Talk page titled "Should we say anything more about Public Lands Privatization and demand feds cede ownership?" be aborted? (Note: Someone archived this proposal before we got resolution, de-archiving it here so discussion can continue.)
Same proposal, cleaned up row labels.
Reflist is here (click show to read)
| ||||||||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|
Concern has been expressed that the article is too long and with too much content that is not encyclopaedic, i.e. does not have long-term significance. I think, by and large, we've got the balance about right, but have been trying to trim the article here and there as appropriate. However, others disagree over some of the material removed, so I thought we could consider some of this here. I'll start with what I've chopped and others have re-instated as examples for consideration.
One example is this diff about the PETA stunt sending vegan jerky. I don't think that has any lasting significance. We only included the sex toy stuff along similar lines when there had been more news stories about it. I suggest we drop this, or maybe include it more briefly after the sex toy comments under Reactions.
Another example is this diff: I removed various bits here, so this is more complicated. To explain some of my edits, I don't think the exact timings of most items matter. Why do we care the press conference was at 11am?
There's a part ending "the militants had deployed into defensive positions with elements manning a roadblock, guarding the headquarters entry, and stationed in a fire lookout usually used to watch for forest fires. Additional militiamen occupied the facility's buildings." I deleted everything after "defensive positions": why do the precise details of the defensive positions matter?
Next paragraph, I knocked out a Ward quote. I don't see any need to quote everything he says. There's a subsequent quote saying much the same thing, so I thought this one could go.
There's a later phrase that begins, " U.S. Senator Ron Wyden of Oregon said that he had been briefed by the special agent in charge of the Portland FBI field office and said that" which I chopped. I don't see why it's important that Wyden said this -- that detail is in the cite given if people care.
Overall, details on timings seem unnecessary much of the time; and I think we can cut back on detail in some places as to who said what. If we're confident a report is accurate, we just need to say what is reported, not who said it how. Bondegezou ( talk) 18:20, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
Bondegezou, you need to take the deletionism down a notch and stop trying to take so much out of the article. WP:NOTPAPER, we have room to be detailed, especially as the article is coming together towards a stable form. Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz ( talk) 20:21, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
January 2016 Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31
I've redirected Kenneth Medenbach and Duane Kirkland to this article. MB298 ( talk) 05:11, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
Is there is ongoing discussion regarding the creation of Timeline of the occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge and ways to address the redundancy between the timeline article and the main article? ---- Another Believer ( Talk) 21:45, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
Congratulations on making a bunch of extra work for everyone. I'm going to keep updating information as I can get it and putting up the sources, you figure out what to do with it then. Obviously you think you WP:OWN the article anyways and don't want to actually work with anyone else, Bondegezou. Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz ( talk) 13:25, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
Especially considering that the supposed "moves" constituted section-blanking, removing entirely the January 19-20 area from this article without bothering to leave a summary behind. Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz ( talk) 13:44, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
The two articles are now in a complete mess, I fear! We have a huge amount of redundancy and repetition across both. Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz is adding lots of material here that seems better suited for the Timeline article. There is no point in a Timeline article if people aren't going to use it. Can we either work out what goes where, or abandon the Timeline article? Bondegezou ( talk) 23:58, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
Way to go misrepresenting my comments. Since your stated goal [1] is clearly to allow no discussion and not to bother reaching a consensus but instead to uncivilly browbeat and threaten people until they go away, "NewsAndEventsGuy", fine: fuck you, I give up on this article.
There, you have what you wanted. Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz ( talk) 15:13, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
Here's something worthy but I'm not going to follow up. Any takers?
Many of the Bundy forces are flashing a pocket constitution only their version was published by the National Center for Constitutional Studies and is rife with the personal philosophies of W._Cleon_Skousen. [1] The booklets became a focal point for at least one powerful editorial on the things you can do "with a gun on your hip and a pocket constituition". [2]
NewsAndEventsGuy ( talk) 03:01, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
References
Is Category:Terrorist incidents in the United States in 2016 appropriate for this article? --- Another Believer ( Talk) 16:26, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
This from The Oregonian is a useful run-down of the militants. Bondegezou ( talk) 22:21, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
Hi folks—I came back to this page after half a week and wow, the timeline section is much improved. It reads more like a summary now, with the timeline sub article dedicated to play-by-play detail. I think that's a wonderful balance: one article that walks you through the general outlines and another that gives a minute retelling (similar to the 9/11 and timeline of 9/11 pair). Perhaps the biggest improvement is grouping them by weeks rather than days, and starting to group them by themes rather than one-off events. Would love to see it refined even further. Not sure who worked on this and I know there's been contentions, but credit to everyone who's helped to clean up this article and make it a cohesive narrative. CaseyPenk ( talk) 16:57, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz states his concerns, and notes that he is closing down his involvement with one or two pages, so that people don't expect him to respond. EdJohnston ( talk) 16:31, 25 January 2016 (UTC) |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
So long, and thanks for all the fish! Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz ( talk) 13:44, 25 January 2016 (UTC) |
Comparing the infobox to something like the Waco siege- why is POTUS here and not in there? It seems to be a grossly overstated inclusion without sources. 50.149.81.197 ( talk) 18:18, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
I've reverted NewsAndEventsGuy's edit [2]. He felt that the inclusion was "mocking or sanctifying" with a comment about "confirmation bias."
I disagree wholeheartedly; religion has been a large part of the issue for the militants. It is well studied, with the Boston Globe commenting that the Bundy group's behavior has its roots in Mormon anti-government religious fanaticism. https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2016/01/05/oregon-standoff-has-roots-mormon-fanaticism/QLgIkrNZipFjtbn4AyUZFJ/story.html
Other sources analyze the peculiar member who refuses to be known by anything other than " Captain Moroni", another figure of mormon anti-government fanaticism. http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2016/01/05/why_ammon_bundy_calls_himself_captain_moroni.html
Oregon Public Broadcasting has covered this as well, as has PBS. http://www.opb.org/news/article/explainer-the-bundy-militias-particular-brand-of-mormonism/ http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/why-the-bundy-militia-mixes-mormon-symbolism-with-anti-government-sentiment/
LA Times notes the religious connection too: http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-activists-oregon-20160105-story.html
I could go on with more sources if needed, but suffice to say: the religious connection is well documented and including mention of it is not a matter of "mocking or sanctifying". Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz ( talk) 18:48, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
*Ammon Bundy, a car fleet manager from Phoenix[16] and son of notable anti-government protestor Cliven Bundy and the leader of the group now calling themselves Citizens for Constitutional Freedom, said he began leading the occupation after receiving a divine message ordering him to do so.[17][18] |
While many of the initial militants claim inspiration from Mormonism, later arrivals have drawn from a variety of backgrounds. citation needed |
How about this? "The leader of the group is Ammon Bundy, son of notable anti-government protestor Cliven Bundy. Many of the initial militant group claimed they were inspired by religious fundamentalist interpretations of Mormon scriptures and legends; Bundy claims to have received a direct 'divine message' asking him to begin the occupation."
I suggest moving the wording about the "citizens for constitutional freedom" group lower in the lede, to allow for slightly more detail and to include language noting that the name was not chosen until after other militant groups such as the "Oath Keepers" declined to formally endorse the militant occupation.
Thoughts? Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz ( talk) 20:36, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
It would be helpful if the motivation section gave some motivation more specific than Mormonism. I came to this page to see why they are protesting. What are they upset about? Instead all we say is that they are protesting because they're Mormons. (Or maybe I don't know enough Mormons, but the few I do don't seem to be taking over buildings.) What is their complaint that they amplify with religious rhetoric? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.192.40.100 ( talk) 22:07, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
A new arrest has occured, add it to the section: http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/01/watch_man_seeking_to_join_oreg.html -- Dagko ( talk) 17:20, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
Perhaps something could be said about the law that is being cited in the arrests. This seems to explain it, including the maximum penalty, and it cites some sources for more information. [3] TomS TDotO ( talk) 05:35, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
This category is still being discussed here, if anyone is interested in participating. --- Another Believer ( Talk) 18:22, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
Here is the collage [4] --- Does anyone think it would be possible/worthwhile to upload to commons and then use in the article? -- Somedifferentstuff ( talk) 16:44, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
Good to keep them at hand for if they are convicted, but until then, per BLPCRIME, let's leave them out... L.tak ( talk) 21:47, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
I added the video of Finicum's death. As for the image someone uploaded that was a screengrab of the MNWR where it says "please send birdseed" - this is obviously a joke that was photoshopped. A search for the phrase "please send birdseed" returns no hits in Google News, and the current iteration of the MNWR website doesn't display any similar image, nor does the WayBackMachine show anything that says "please send birdseed" in the last few days. Does anyone object to it being removed? LavaBaron ( talk) 10:47, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
See here and here. Definitely needs to be added to the Arrests section (somewhat relevant to the above discussion). MB298 ( talk) 02:38, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
The word shootout is currently being used in the lede to describe the incident wherein Lavoy Finicum lost his life. The family members are insisting that there was no "shootout," that Finicum was shot with his hands raised. I know that many media sources are also using the term "shootout." Do any of them state specifically that shots were fired by persons on both sides? Michael-Ridgway ( talk) 09:48, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
The following can be found on the Facebook page of Finicum's daughter, Thara Tenney: "I want the world to know how my father was murdered today. His hands were in the air and he was shot in the face by the American authorities. Ammon Bundy reported there are 6 witnesses to this evil." It was posted on January 26, 2016 at 10:47 US Central Time. [6] Michael-Ridgway ( talk) 10:29, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
This post can be seen on the Bundy Ranch Facebook page:
Patricia Anderson Nevada Assemblywoman Michele Fiore said that Ammon Bundy called his wife, Lisa Bundy, from the back of a police car on Tuesday night.
Fiore, a vocal supporter of the Bundy family, said that Ammon Bundy told his wife that Finicum was cooperating with police and had put his hands up. Then, Fiore said, Bundy told his wife that he watched police shoot Finicum three times. She said that Ammon Bundy also said Finicum was on the ground when he was shot.
Finicum on Monday said in a radio blog interview that he sensed heightened activity from federal law enforcement. [7] Michael-Ridgway ( talk) 11:13, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
Lacking high quality RSs about a 2 way "shootout" or "gunfight" I have purged those rumors from article text but have not attempted to add any neutral text based on high quality RSs. Suggest waiting until after police news conf this afternoon. NewsAndEventsGuy ( talk) 15:23, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
The video of the "shootout" has been released. It's time to remove the word "shootout" from this article. There was no shoutout. Michael-Ridgway ( talk) 05:50, 29 January 2016 (UTC) Who wants to describe for our readers what the video actually shows? Michael-Ridgway ( talk) 05:50, 29 January 2016 (UTC) Or shall we run with the headline of the very reliable source, Maxim, which posted an article 28 minutes ago with the title: THE FBI JUST RELEASED FOOTAGE OF THE OREGON MILITIA SHOOTOUT, AND IT'S INTENSE.
From the Atlantic: "Only police fired shots." [8]
/info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2016_January_19#Category:Occupation_of_the_Malheur_National_Wildlife_Refuge (the discussion is still going on). MB298 ( talk) 04:52, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
This has lots of details. Bondegezou ( talk) 11:24, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
Considering how long the "Arrested" portion of the infobox is, does anyone think we should shorten it to just a number? I personally find it unnecessarily long. Parsley Man ( talk) 03:02, 30 January 2016 (UTC)
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This is EXTREMELY distorted. Lets not pretend that a protesters religion is always the cause and motivation. Everyone in the world already knows from every source out there this is about federal land management policy. 75.174.87.225 ( talk) 10:23, 31 January 2016 (UTC)