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The following is a closed discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
"(1940-1945)" is not necessary because there has only been one de jure occupation of Tangier. Colonial rule, while similar in some respects, is a fundamentally different concept from a
military occupation which (theoretically) respects the continued sovereignty of the occupied state. Even if a disambiguation was needed, "during World War II" would be more appropriate per
German occupation of Belgium during World War II. —Brigade Piron (
talk)
13:22, 2 May 2021 (UTC)reply
Article titles should follow the usage of sources, not other articles. In the light of that, a change from Occupation of Tangier (1940–1945) → Spanish occupation of Tangier (1940–1945)" or "Tangier under Spanish occupation (1940–1945)" could be discussed. A change to Spanish occupation of the Tangier International Zone... cannot. You should not try to be smarter than sources. So please refer to them and not to ramblings about what makes more sense to you in particular. What the fuck do you mean by "de jure occupation"? This was not "de jure" anything. This occupation is not more de jure than others. During World War II is actually not more appropiate as sources because 1) it is factually more innacurate as World War II started in 1939 2) sources do not (usually) consider Spain to have entered that war (so that title is actually Wikipedia taking a side in some ways).--Asqueladd (
talk)
13:24, 2 May 2021 (UTC)reply
It's not a question of me "rambling" or trying to be "smarter than the sources" although it is obviously polite of you to suggest it. It's a question of
WP:NDESC. As for the two other points you raise: (i) I don't think you understand the meaning of de jure which does not imply endorsement and which merely refers to the fact that military occupation is defined by the
Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907 and (ii) "during World War II" does not imply a judgment on Spanish neutrality and is perfectly neutral, as we accept at
Sweden during World War II or even
Spain during World War II.—Brigade Piron (
talk)
13:33, 2 May 2021 (UTC)reply
It is less accurate, as WWII includes 1939 (and this event do not) and this event extended beyond September 1945.--Asqueladd (
talk)
13:40, 2 May 2021 (UTC)reply
I understand the convenience to apply the Spanish adjective. And it is supported by sources. Sources do not care about adding the convoluted Tangier International Zone, though, when presenting the content. We should not do it. The bracket is more accurate than "during World War II" anyway you see at it. It may be dropped but sources do not necessarily drop it, so there is that. In any case, isn't the
city's article very wrong? I don't think this city was ever part of the Spanish protectorate from 1912 to 1924 as that article suggests. It remained disputed. Not to say that effective Spanish occupation of the actual territory within the bound of the "drawn lines" was not achieved in 1912, precisely...--Asqueladd (
talk)
14:10, 2 May 2021 (UTC)reply
Oppose as proposed; support "Spanish occupation of Tangier (1940-1945)" or better "Spanish occupation of Tangier": per the
WP:CRITERIA, article titles need to be concise, precise and recognisable (in addition to being attested in sources). "Tangier International Zone" is neither concise nor very recognisable to most readers (they would likely not even know which period it refers to). "Spanish occupation of Tangier (1940-1945)" might have a bit of an issue with the parenthetical for the years (is that really necessary disambiguation?), but it is concise, more precise and more recognisable to an unknowledgeable reader than the current title or the initial proposal.
RandomCanadian (
talk /
contribs)
15:13, 2 May 2021 (UTC)reply
I agree that "Spanish occupation of Tangier" is preferable to the current title. I'm not sure I understand your objection to TIZ as not "very recognisable" though? Tangier was (is) a city, while the TIZ was the polity. —Brigade Piron (
talk)
09:56, 3 May 2021 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a
list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the
full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history articles
This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status:
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Spain, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Spain on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SpainWikipedia:WikiProject SpainTemplate:WikiProject SpainSpain articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Morocco, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Morocco on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.MoroccoWikipedia:WikiProject MoroccoTemplate:WikiProject MoroccoMorocco articles
The following is a closed discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
"(1940-1945)" is not necessary because there has only been one de jure occupation of Tangier. Colonial rule, while similar in some respects, is a fundamentally different concept from a
military occupation which (theoretically) respects the continued sovereignty of the occupied state. Even if a disambiguation was needed, "during World War II" would be more appropriate per
German occupation of Belgium during World War II. —Brigade Piron (
talk)
13:22, 2 May 2021 (UTC)reply
Article titles should follow the usage of sources, not other articles. In the light of that, a change from Occupation of Tangier (1940–1945) → Spanish occupation of Tangier (1940–1945)" or "Tangier under Spanish occupation (1940–1945)" could be discussed. A change to Spanish occupation of the Tangier International Zone... cannot. You should not try to be smarter than sources. So please refer to them and not to ramblings about what makes more sense to you in particular. What the fuck do you mean by "de jure occupation"? This was not "de jure" anything. This occupation is not more de jure than others. During World War II is actually not more appropiate as sources because 1) it is factually more innacurate as World War II started in 1939 2) sources do not (usually) consider Spain to have entered that war (so that title is actually Wikipedia taking a side in some ways).--Asqueladd (
talk)
13:24, 2 May 2021 (UTC)reply
It's not a question of me "rambling" or trying to be "smarter than the sources" although it is obviously polite of you to suggest it. It's a question of
WP:NDESC. As for the two other points you raise: (i) I don't think you understand the meaning of de jure which does not imply endorsement and which merely refers to the fact that military occupation is defined by the
Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907 and (ii) "during World War II" does not imply a judgment on Spanish neutrality and is perfectly neutral, as we accept at
Sweden during World War II or even
Spain during World War II.—Brigade Piron (
talk)
13:33, 2 May 2021 (UTC)reply
It is less accurate, as WWII includes 1939 (and this event do not) and this event extended beyond September 1945.--Asqueladd (
talk)
13:40, 2 May 2021 (UTC)reply
I understand the convenience to apply the Spanish adjective. And it is supported by sources. Sources do not care about adding the convoluted Tangier International Zone, though, when presenting the content. We should not do it. The bracket is more accurate than "during World War II" anyway you see at it. It may be dropped but sources do not necessarily drop it, so there is that. In any case, isn't the
city's article very wrong? I don't think this city was ever part of the Spanish protectorate from 1912 to 1924 as that article suggests. It remained disputed. Not to say that effective Spanish occupation of the actual territory within the bound of the "drawn lines" was not achieved in 1912, precisely...--Asqueladd (
talk)
14:10, 2 May 2021 (UTC)reply
Oppose as proposed; support "Spanish occupation of Tangier (1940-1945)" or better "Spanish occupation of Tangier": per the
WP:CRITERIA, article titles need to be concise, precise and recognisable (in addition to being attested in sources). "Tangier International Zone" is neither concise nor very recognisable to most readers (they would likely not even know which period it refers to). "Spanish occupation of Tangier (1940-1945)" might have a bit of an issue with the parenthetical for the years (is that really necessary disambiguation?), but it is concise, more precise and more recognisable to an unknowledgeable reader than the current title or the initial proposal.
RandomCanadian (
talk /
contribs)
15:13, 2 May 2021 (UTC)reply
I agree that "Spanish occupation of Tangier" is preferable to the current title. I'm not sure I understand your objection to TIZ as not "very recognisable" though? Tangier was (is) a city, while the TIZ was the polity. —Brigade Piron (
talk)
09:56, 3 May 2021 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.