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I believe the Ethics section needs to be rewritten as to become more formatted and systematic, in the "Man->The Good->Virtue" style that Peikoff uses to explain it, and the explanation that Rand gives as to the role that ethics plays in the title essay of The Virtue of Selfishness. As it stands now, the section is less of a summary and more of a third-person description. D prime 00:39, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Some portion of Objectivists may favor an esthetic of Romanticism, like Rand. However, I think there needs to be more support for stating that this philosophy officially prescribes a particular esthetic. I may have missed this somewhere so please clue me (us) in. -- Davidp 21:51, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
I would like if there were an image to go along with this to make it look less dry at first apperance. Perhaps a copy of Atlas Shrugged beside Peikoff's paperback describing the entire philosophy? Or maybe The Fountainhead, Atlas and all of the non-fiction anthologies? I would explain what they are at the end. Does anyone have any thoughts? D prime 16:43, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
I've taken the liberty of putting back the libertarian sidebar and disambig notice. There was never any good reason to remove the latter (see, e.g., the title of the book by Richard Bernstein — Beyond Objectivism and Relativism), nor was there even a proposal to do so. As for the libertarian sidebar, (a) no consensus was ever reached, (b) Rand was a libertarian under any definition thereof, and (c) it doesn't matter what she said—Camus is listed in Category:Existentialists, even though he explicitly disavowed the label. -- zenohockey 02:43, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
I see that D prime removed both the libertarianism sidebar and the disambiguation notice. These two aren't really related, and the discussion above doesn't show any opposition to the disambiguation notice. I've got no love for the bar (as explained above), but I strongly believe that the disambig is 100% appropriate. I've added that back. If there is some serious objection to it, I'd like to hear what it is. -- RL0919 23:09, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
In the discussion under "Libertarian Bar" at the top of the page, D prime suggests that the libertarianism sidebar should link to the Libertarianism and Objectivism article, rather than this one. I think that is a very good suggestion. Comments pro or con? -- RL0919 22:01, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
I propose that this article be moved to Rand's Objectivist philosophy or similar name, so that the article title reflects the content and makes the distinction clear. Also similer moves for other articles on Rands work, also rename the category Category:Books by Ayn Rand be renames to Category:Ayn Rand and the articles places there. Thoughs? -- Salix alba ( talk) 09:07, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Who is Rynd? -- Christofurio 17:20, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
I don't have any conclusion about the right solution, but there's definitely a real problem here that Pfafrich has pointed out. Mainly, the pages that involve Rand are not clearly labeled so as to distinguish the ones that don't. For example, how would anyone guess which of the following two is Randist: Objectivism (metaphysics) and Objectivist metaphysics? Maybe the Rand-specific topics ought to be named as such. For example, "Objectivism (metaphysics)" would be a general article, while "Objectivist metaphysics (Rand)" would be the specific one. Substitute "Randist" or "Randian" for "Rand" if you prefer. Alienus 23:24, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
The argument against the Objectivist view of causality appears to be original research. It would be interesting to learn of an authority who disputed what is specifically Objectivist, in particular the Objectivist insistence on 'entity to action' causality rather than 'action to action' causality. In any case, the argument made here was an argument against determinism per se and could be cited by reference to the "Determinism, quantum mechanics and classical physics" section in the Wikipedia article on Determinism. But please cite your source for this criticism, if you can find an authority who levels it specifically against Objectivism. Incidentally, if the subject interests you, I suggest you consult the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy which has a series of articles on the philosophical implications of quantum mechanics. You will find that the Copenhagen interpretation is far from satisfactory to many philosophers of science. It is a fascinating topic in it's own right but probably too vast and too tangential to merit a lengthy exposition in a survey article on Objectivism. Blanchette 22:22, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
I should think the reader would benefit from knowing the identities of some of these number of philosophers who find Rand's argument for atheism both laughable and embarrassing. While laughter and embarrassment often occur together, what are the odds of both sentiments being expressed by a number (greater than one) of philosophers with respect to this one issue? I think this is especially unlikely since, as far as I know, Rand's argument for atheism is that there is no evidence for the supernatural -- hardly a novel, or uniquely laughable and embarrassing position in the history of philosophy. I recall her offering a 'sense of life' reason to reject the notion of God as well, something along the lines of the concept of a being superior to man as demeaning to manifestly real human greatness (someone may have a reference for this), but she certainly did not offer that as a primary argument for atheism.
The entire paragraph, aside from the first sentence, which would qualify as common knowledge, would greatly benefit from a few citation of sources for the particular claims made, especially since the paragraph is a litany of emotion words (passion, derided, disgust, not... serious, dismissal, rehashes, errors, etc.) rather than of arguments. I'm sure knowing where to find the arguments would be worthwhile. Blanchette 23:22, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
There's a longstanding section in the Alan Greenspan (former chairman of the U.S. Federal Reserve banking system) that purports to cover Objectivist criticism of him. I think there are problems with it, but I hesitate to delete it, because IMO non-mainstream viewpoints like that should be treated inclusively on Wikipedia. I wondered if one of the editors here would take a look at it and perhaps improve it.
Here is the first bit of it: "Greenspan continues to support a gold standard and advocate laissez-faire capitalism [14] [15]. His support for a gold standard is somewhat of an irony given the Federal Reserve's role in America's fiat money. He has come under heavy criticism from Objectivist philosophers, most notably Leonard Peikoff and Harry Binswanger [16], as they believe that working for the Federal Reserve is an abandonment of Objectivist and free market principles. Increasingly, however, some Objectivists have come to believe that Greenspan has deliberately and with full intention engineered the downfall of the American economy."
So, you can probably see that there may be some issues there, at a minimum the section is insufficiently sourced. Hope someone here can improve it. DanielM 18:43, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
For those who may be interested, I am proposing a formal WikiProject to co-ordinate work on Objectivism-related articles here on Wikipedia. I have written a little about what I hope the project would achieve on my User page. Interested users should "sign" their usernames here. WikiProject guidelines suggest that at least 5 and ideally at least 10 users express an interest in a proposed project before a formal project page is set up. -- Matthew Humphreys 14:41, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
This section is POV in the extreme, I fear - a handful of books and a single journal without a major figure on its board do not constitute increased academic respect. And the idea that "many" academics dismiss Rand is understatement in the extreme. Rand is a joke in academic philosophy. To say otherwise is POV advocacy. Phil Sandifer 23:40, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
That's not at all the case. That most (albeit more than 'many') professional philosophers dismiss Rand (as I would expect them to, considering that modern philosophy is crap) does not equate to Rand being a 'joke in academic philosophy.' Obviously the section should state that most professional philosophers do not take Rand seriously, explain the common Objectivist responce, and cite what recognition she does have - which is pretty much what it does. D prime 00:35, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
While it is true that Rand's Objectivism hasn't gained widespread academic acceptance, neither has quite a lot of Continental philosophy in the United States. So also, Existensialism took quite a while to gain widespread acceptance in academic circles depending on where you are speaking about. This doesn't say anything about Objectivism's validity, only its degree of acceptance. It should be possible to re-write that section in a way that indicates those facts in a non-inflammatory way. Keep in mind this section is meant to convey something like an ethnography of Objectivism in academic philosophy. It's acceptance in academic circles also does not mystically anoint Objectivism as a "philosophy," but it may indicate that it is an accepted philosophy for the masses. That is all a matter of what authority you respect. Domhail 07:28, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Here's the text I removed.
It should also be noted that followers of many great personalities have come to magnify the person after being deeply affected by the ideas of that person. This does not by necessity reveal faults of either the person being idolized or the ideas they have shared. Furthermore, the social and intellectual image of her philosophy, which was somehow preserved by Rand during her life, was left in the hands of others after her death.
This was clearly added to spin some POV onto the otherwise critical passage. It appears to be OR and POV, so I've removed it. If it can be rewritten so that it cites some relevant, reliable sources, perhaps it should then be reinserted. Al 02:45, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
At List of groups referred to as cults there is a disagreement whether Objectivist philosophy is a cult. Can someone more knowledgeable volunteer a statement on the talk page? -- Pjacobi 07:54, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
And again the category was removed. I've put it back again; let's cut the POV and not remove it again. -- LGagnon 22:28, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
There's been a move-war over the naming of the Objectivism and homosexuality article, with LaszloWalrus repeatedly renaming it to Ayn Rand's views on homosexuality. I won't rehash the arguments here or otherwise prejudice interested parties. Instead, I ask that you consult the Talk page and participate in forming a consensus. Al 19:33, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Has anyone seen that in the Template:Satanism, among the Associated Concepts there is also Objectivism? It clearly must be deleted from there.-- Arado 13:16, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
As mentioned in Anton LaVey, Satanism has roots in a number of philosophies, including Objectivism. This is a historical fact and will not be removed. Al 17:00, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm looking for people with knowlege of Objectivisim to contribute to the Objectivist Wiki This project is just getting off the ground, and needs lots of love :). Crazynas 20:11, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
I tried adding www.strongatheism.net as an external link but someone removed it. The site is definately based on Objectivism even though it never directly identifies itself as that. I've noticed that Objectivists don't tend to identify their philosophy as Objectivism but instead label it as the only true and complete philosophy. Even though some of the philosophy makes sense they do seem to have a bit of a cult mentality. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mihils ( talk • contribs)
I strongly object to the presence of a link to a website (The Sociology of the Ayn Rand Cult) accusing Ayn Rand's admirers of being a "cult." Although such a link may have a place on the article on Ayn Rand herself, this particular article provides information on Objectivist philosophy, and if there should be any critical links, they should be critical about Objectivist ideas, not Objectivist people. Would anyone agree to this? A.T.
I agree; in the first place, Objectivism is not primarily a movement, but a philosophy. Most Objectivists are not involved in any movement. In the second place, criticism of Ayn Rand's character, whether valid or not, has little to do with the ideas of Objectivism. LaszloWalrus 09:44, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Ayn Rand defined Objectivism as "a philosophy for living on earth", not as a "movement." As LaszloWalrus pointed out, criticism of Ayn Rand's character, whether valid or not, has nothing to do with the ideas of Objectivism, which this Wikipedia article is about. Criticism of Objectivism in this article should be restricted to ideas, not persons or associations. I have a small group of Objectivist friends, and none of us are "card-carrying members" of the Ayn Rand Institute or any other organization, for that matter. - A.T.
Some of Ayn Rand's admirers may have formed a cult, but that cult is not "Objectivist philosophy", which is the title of this Wikipedia article. "Objectivist philosophy" is, as the term states, a philosophical system, something that that link does not deal with. Since you vehemently disagree, I won't eliminate the link, but respectfully urge you to consider it. A.T.
I wish I could disagree, but I can't. Al 21:10, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
There is a conflict on List of philosophers over whether Ayn Rand qualifies as a major philosopher. It might be of interest to editors here. I ask, however, that people make an effort to be objective on this matter, rather than voting based on their personal feelings. My pet philosopher isn't on this list, for example. Al 19:58, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Considering that her books have sold 20 millions copies and her huge following, and the relatively long length of the list, she certainly deserves to be on there. The list includes several philosophers who are/were less 'major' than Rand. D prime 06:22, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
The Criticism of Objectivism section is pathetic. It doesn't address any philosophical issues. It's just allegations of being a cult and other trivial stuff like that. Who cares? The philosophy itself should be critiqued --instead of all this peripheral stuff. Don't the opponents of Objectivism have anything more substantial to say? RJII 05:10, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
(removing personal attack)
After digging around a bit, I have to agree. Note that the issue of sock puppets is particularly sensitive given the AFD I placed on their new POV fork. Looks like Randists are trying to stack the deck against neutrality. Al 00:39, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
The point I had trouble getting across to RJ is that a writer with no academic credentials who refuses to submit to peer reviewed journals and threatens to sue anyone who criticizes her is, quite rightfully, going to be viewed as some flake, not a genuine philosopher. There are plenty of people who do this sort of thing, and they're soundly ignored. The only reason anyone in academia took notice of Rand at all is that she's a popular writer who is considered by some to be a philosopher, so it might be worth a paragraph or two to summarize and dismiss her. That's pretty much been the case until a few Randians grew up and got degrees that let them write about Rand. Al 15:25, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Gag says the article "takes on Objectivism both as a philosophy and as a cult". I suspect this qualifies as criticism. Al 16:27, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
We used to have a professor in our philosophy department who used one of Rand's books in his Introduction to Philosophy class. Not as an instructional guide for intro to phil, but as a guide for students as to what philosophy is not. Amerindianarts 16:46, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Look, let's pull back on the all-too-easy Rand-bashing. Under the bluster, RJII does have a legitimate point, which is that, to the extent that this article is supposed to be about a philosophy, it would be nice if we included more criticism of it as a philosophy.
The article that Gag linked to is a start. I'm sure there are others. As Amer pointed out, Rand is not at all well liked by people whose knowledge of philosophy doesn't begin and end with Atlas Shrugged, so this shouldn't be impossible. Al 17:22, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
I tagged just about every other sentence with a cite needed, we have no proof that any of those outside sources said what they said, and if they aren't properly sorced in a few days, they're gone. I also added {{weasel}} for obvious reasons.
Crazynas
17:26, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Ditto. While it's fair to ask for references, I think it's clear that these sentences are not really questionable. References will be found in time, but deletion is premature and would likely be reverted. Al 17:55, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I won't delete, but they DO need to be sorced. Crazynas 17:56, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm also going to work on sourcing when I can. Crazynas 17:57, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
I am not informed on objectivism, and so I am not ready to add to the page, but I believe that this read [3] by Nathaniel Branden has alot to add to the criticism section. Also, I must add that the criticism section has too much emphasis on the "cult problem", it should be mentioned but at the moment it seems like the focal point of the section. -- A Sunshade Lust 02:48, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
If Objectivism were exhibiting major characteristics of a cult in a pervasive manner, then it would be relevant to discuss in this article because what key proponents of a philosophy actually do can be reflective of the philosophy itself in some cases. However, ad verecundium arguments aside as to who in authority considers Objectivism a cult, I have read many of these allegations and have not found the arguments behind any of these accusations I have read thus far to be sound (I say this as someone who has extensive experience working with families who have loved ones in destructive cults). Contrary to what Shermer contends, having an affair and keeping it private from students and friends does not constitute cult deception. If it did, any academic institutions where such affairs have occured would also have to be labelled cults!-- MonicaPignotti 19:35, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
I believe the term "Objectivism" was first used by Fichte in a counter (alternative solution) to Kant's work. What he intended may not be the same as what is referred to in the article title "objectivist philosophy" Amerindianarts 05:14, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Yes I do. My comment was in regard to user Alienus' reference to the term and should be understood within the context of the discussion in this section. Amerindianarts 05:40, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
The move was a good one and I compliment LGagnon's efforts and motives. Objectivism is a loaded term, and an article title can open up a POV can of worms. To say that Objectivism is a philosophy is to use the term in lay terms, as in "My philosophy is", which is not a very technical usage of the term "philosophy". What objectivism is, is an ontological position within the discipline of philosophy, which attempts to establish epistemological parameters for objectivity (the propensity to be objective). Amerindianarts 21:38, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
"Philosophy" doesn't have a "technical usage." I've studied Albert Camus in Philosophy class. If that's philosophy, then surely something as systematic as Rand is philosophy. Why you guys are going so out of your way to discredit Objectivism without studying it or making any criticisms the philosophy itself is interesting. I'm going to learn about it before I condemn it. I've bought a couple books and will be studying it and hopefully improve this pathetic article. And, if I turn out to agree with it, you're going to call me a cultist, right? RJII 18:27, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
(removing personal attack)
(removing personal attack)
It is actually encouraged on Wikipedia for editors to "write for the enemy", and I support this policy. Who'd want to read an article on Objectivism written entirely by Objectivists?
In any case, American libertarianism is firmly aligned with the Republicans and their religious right agenda. Al 23:45, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
There's a whole article on this, but the short version is that Objectivists are libertarians. Al 00:28, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Your argument is based on a false premise, since Objectivists are aligned with the religious right. They vote Republican, not Democrat, and the Republicans are the religious right's home party. Of course, they're not voting Republican because they agree across the board with the fundie Christians. Rather, they agree on economic conservativism and anti-federalism. All three groups want to lower taxes, take away the social safety net and free corporations to do as they wish. On their points of disagreement, they hold their noses in political expediency. Apparently, they consider their commonalities more important than their differences. Al 00:53, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
All too often, Objectivists and other libertarians try to curry favor with liberals by arguing that their libertarianism is more consistently on the side of freedom. "We're the true liberals; come join us."
Then Bush comes along and puts this claim to the test. Even though liberals see him as the anti-Christ, libertarians tend to like him, but for his religious extremism. If libertarians were really close kin of liberals, you would imagine that Peikoff's endorsement of Kerry would be wholehearted, not a tepid lesser-of-evils nod. For that matter, you wouldn't expect someone of Binswanger's stature to endorse Bush.
The truth is that libertarians are so out of touch with reality that they don't fit well in either American political party. However, they have frequently allied themselves with the Republicans and will likely continue to do so, especially when the next Republican presidential candidate proves to be a little less obviously in the pocket of the religious right. Al 01:54, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
And so it all comes out. This Objectivism bashing is politically motivated. Isn't the point of studying philosophy to subject your beliefs to rational scrutiny? Don't oppose a philosophy for its conclusions but because it makes unsound and invalid arguments. But, the only criticism that seems to come from you guys has nothing to do with Rand's arguments. It's just that she supports laissez-faire capitalism, therefore you oppose her. So, to discredit Objectivism you criticize everything but the arguments themselves. Either this is because you don't know her arguments or you can't come up with any cogent objections. Which is it? RJII 02:38, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Uh, yeah, and it sure is a good thing that, as a socialist, Hitler was as far from fascism as he could get. :-) Extremes are hard to tell apart sometimes, eh? Al 05:05, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Reading these discussions, I cannot help but feel compelled to express my views. First of all, it is quite clear that many of the individuals writing against Objectivism lack the most basic knowledge about Objectivism. For instance, the individual who claims that Objectivism is associated with the religious right simply does not understand the first thing about Objectivist philosophy. Objectivism is totally atheistic and opposed to any form of supernaturalism or mysticism. Al, the individual who wrote that Objectivists vote for Republicans, unfortunately does not know what he is talking about. If he were to read Ayn Rand's writings on the subjects of conservatism and liberalism, he would learn that Ayn Rand viewed both camps as being of the same essence: pro-government, anti-freedom, the differences lying only in where the government should intervene and control. Objectivism is NOT a political philosophy. Politics is itself a branch of philosophy, one that studies the nature of governments and how men are to deal with eachother in a social context. However, BEFORE men can study how they are to deal with eachother, they must study how they themselves are to live, a topic that is covered by ethics. And before knowing how one is to live in this world, one must know the nature of the world he is in (metaphysics) and his means of understanding this world (epistemology). Ayn Rand's politico-economic conclusions are based upon volumes of epistemological-metaphysical-ethical thought, and so, as Leonard Peikoff once stated, politics is not the central theme of Objectivism. To claim that it is shows simply to the Objectivist reader that the accuser has obviously not read very many of Ayn Rand's non-fiction writings, and that he is basing his conclusions on biased sources. Objectivism is, as Ayn Rand directly stated on countless occasions, neither liberal (based on today's understanding of the word) nor conservative. Objectivism is not "proto-nazism." Objectivist politics states that the government's sole function is the protection of individual rights; other than that, hands off. (Please pardon me if this somewhat lengthy statement is not coherent or does not flow logically, but I taught myself English a few years ago, as Polish was my first language.) Adam T.
Alienus, with all due respect, in all of your comments, you have never offered any constructive criticism of Objectivist philosophy as a whole. Your statements are restricted to attacking Ayn Rand's followers, misrepresenting her political philosophy and making ludicrous statements about it such identifying Objectivism with "the religious right" (among other things). One cannot discuss Ayn Rand's philosophy with you if this is all you have to say. Do you have any comments about Objectivism's epistemological views, which Rand said were central to her philosophy? What about her metaphysical conclusions, which exemplify the concept of independent reality? What you are doing, sir, is simply bringing more credibility to the accusation that most critics of Objectivism are critical of Ayn Rand the person and not Ayn Rand the thinker. Adam T.
It's true that some philosophers believed in the concept of objective reality long before Ayn Rand, but what she did was, in many people's view, rediscover it in an age that had forgotten it. Whether other philosophers did it "better" than Rand is a matter of opinion. Could you elaborate a bit on what you call her "infallibilistic" epistemology? To my understanding, what Ayn Rand wrote on the subject was that an individual can achieve knowledge of the world around him through sensory perception and a scrupulous process of reasoning, but anything that is not learned by objective, rational means is not knowledge. Adam T.
I don't think much of your opinion that I don't know anything about the history of philosophy because it is just that: your opinion. It's easy to accuse a person with whom you disagree with ignorance, but that's not always the case. I think that logical positivism is quite irrational, and it differs from objectivism on many points. Adam T.
As I stated before, I, a native Pole, have never taken any formal English classes, and while my grammar may appear to be just fine, I spend a lot of time editing anything I may write to ensure that it says what I want it to say. Adam T.
Either way, I don't see why that should concern you. Adam T.
Alienus, as RJII stated, Ayn Rand did not believe that humans are capable of being infallible. Can you give an example from one of Ayn Rand's written works stating that she did indeed believe this? Thank you for clarifying the logical positivism thing. Adam T.
Al, I have read your link, and while I am now attempting to compile a general response to your accusation of infallibilism in Objectivist epistemology, I do just want to say that I wish that you wouldn't assume that since I admire Ayn Rand, I belong to her "cult of personality." I don't consider her to be the greatest human being to have ever lived, and I do not consider Atlas Shrugged to be the greatest literary achievement of all time. I believe that a person can disagree with Ayn Rand and still be "rational", and I believe that Ayn Rand herself was an awkward person. However, this doesn't change the validity of her ideas, most (but not all) of whom I accept to be true. Adam T.
Also, I do want to point out that I have a problem with your link's validity as the author himself states: "Since I don't have access to any of Rand's writings, I will have to base myself on second-hand sources and, especially, on the writing of Nathaniel Braden (formerly her number two) and the Objectivist Society web site to help me along the way." It's not fair for this person to write an article critical of Objectivism without first having read primary sources for the philosophy, such as her work on epistemology, "Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology." Adam T.
There are problems with the article Al cites, but it is useful enough for his purposes. RJII seems to confuse epistemological infallibism with the idea that everyone has infallible knowledge of the world. That claim is obviously false: only Ayn Rand has infallible knowledge of the world. Rand's epistemology is undeniably infallibistic. That is to say, she claims that absolute certain knowledge is attainable. Remember the Objectivist mantra: A is A. Is epistemological infallibism wrong? Who knows. My own knowledge is just too faulty to be able to tell... iggy talk 23:44, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Sorry to say it, RJ, but Gag has your number. Al 04:59, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Objectivism's epistemological stance is a rejection of the assersion that humans can't have any knowledge of the universe at all and that reason is impotent to comprehend reality. Objectivism states that humans can attain reliable knowledge only through sensory perception. Ayn Rand holds that sensory perception is axiomatically valid because it would be self-contradictory to say that the senses aren't sources of genuine knowledge, as making such a statement relies at least implicitly on the senses, since they are the only possible source of the alleged knowledge eof their validity. That's how I understand it. Adam T.
If I can't even tell whether I'm using my senses or not, how can they be infallible? Al 04:16, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
I just archived everything up to 2006, hope this cuts down the page load time some, all the stuff I archived is in Archive4. Crazynas 05:36, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
He's been adding some more POV lately. I've fixed some of it but I don't want to be doing this alone. Al 19:06, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. Please start by reverting your changes. Al 03:02, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
This article lacks sufficient discussion of her philosophy of value. That's major. I'm trying to comprehend it but have not been successful yet. If anyone understands it, please add to the article. It needs to be explained why Rand thinks life itself has to be the foundational value which makes all other values possible. RJII 03:00, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
And birds go 'tweet'. A corrolary is hardly unique or original, much less "distinctively Objectivist".
In order to value, you must live. In order to be alive, you must hold those values consistent with remaining alive. Therefore, whatever your other values are, you must value your continued existence in order to value anything else. Al 03:14, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
I never claimed she correctly applied these principles or understood them thoroughly. She operated on truthiness, not truth. Al 03:22, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
If someone can explain why she thinks that an immortal and indestructible being cannot value anything at all, then they understand why she thinks that a mortal human being must value life in order to value anything at all. For example, why can't an immortal being value an automobile? According to her, it couldn't --it would be a logical impossibility. I've been reading the arguments for that position but haven't been able to intuit them yet, so am not comfortable explaining it in the article. RJII 03:42, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
I realize that some of these matters may be genuinely hard for you to grasp, so I'm going to just assume good faith and repeat myself as clearly as I can. It's an error to claim that mortality is required for values. Rand is boldly conflating Is with Ought, without bothering to draw the complex path that connects the two. I hope that explains what I said before. Al 05:04, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
In other words, I know her argument and know it's wrong. Thank you so much for assuming good faith. Al 05:39, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm sure you think so. Thank you so much for sharing. Al 05:42, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Do you even know what an argument is, in philosophy? The argument is not the position --not what is being proved, but the proof itself. You don't know her arguments, so you are in no position to disagree with her conclusions. And, in no position to explain her arguments in this article. That a person has to be mortal and value life in order to value things, is not an argument. It's an assertion or conclusion. The argument is her reasoning that leads to that conclusion --something you're obviously not familiar with. I'm asking for someone familiar with her philosophy add her argumentation on "value" to the article. (And, to critique a philosophy, you don't critique the assertions but the reasoning that brings the philosopher to conclude that those assertions are true. Didn't they teach you that in Philosophy 101?) RJII 05:41, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Here's a stab at something for others to kick around (I am not an Objectivist or even all that sympathetic to Objectivism, so I won't just add this in). As I understand it, however, the thing for Rand which has moral value is not "life", but specifically human life, particular conscious human life which includes the ability to judge, that is the ability to discern right and wrong. Thus, she writes, "Man’s consciousness shares with animals the first two stages of its development: sensations and perceptions; but it is the third state, conceptions, that makes him man" (This much, I take it from the discussion above, is not getting to RJII's question). Further, Rand writes that "the living organisms that possess the faculty of consciousness need to exercise it in order to survive". The function of moral judgement — that is the action of the "conceptual" consciousness — is thus the promotion of survival. And hence "when [one's morality] is set to oppose his own life and mind, it makes him turn against himself and blindly act as the tool of his own destruction." What we can see underlying this is the words she puts in the mouth of John Galt: "‘Value’ presupposes a standard, a purpose and the necessity of action in the face of an alternative. Where there are no alternatives, no values are possible." Finally, "there is only one fundamental alternative in the universe: existence or non-existence—and it pertains to a single class of entities: to living organisms." Now we have here Ayn Rand's own words — what can we make of them? For Rand, moral values ultimately arise only in the struggle for existence — an immortal, indestructible, conscious being (which is, from Rand's perspective, purely hypothetical and probably not even worth discussing) cannot have values because there is no standard to measure these values. Remember that values are "objective" that is, are moral judgements are either true or false. The type of actions taken by an immortal indestructible being are a matter of total indifference — whatever such a being does, it will be alive and no more "objectively" worse off than it was before. Thus, only "life", that is, only the struggle for survival in the face of one's own imminent non-existence (death) is capable of moral values — is capable of genuine choice and freedom. Freedom, for Rand, is not just the ability to do something, but the ability to produce, to produce the means of survival. And that, as I understand it, is Rand's argument. iggy talk 06:33, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
To quote: "ill-thought out and unsystematic". Al 05:55, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
RJIII, in my basic understanding, here is how Objectivism explains it. Ayn Rand defines "value" as "that which one acts to gain or keep." Only living organisms can understand and follow the concept of value because it is only to living organisms that things, ideas, or situations can be good or bad. Why? Whereas matter is eternal - it changes forms, but nevertheless never goes out of existence - life is not, and must be preserved by the organism who values it. An indestructible robot, obviously not being alive, cannot pursue values. Adam T.
That fails to distinguish quality of life from quantity of life. Who wants to live forever in misery when there are better ways of living? Al 04:11, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
This section replaces the previous section on the same subject which was tagged for 'weaseling' in that it lacked citations for its claims. This current section was moved from the Ayn Rand article where it was hardly illuminating about Ayn Rand the person and replaced by a link to this location. It has the distinct advantage of citing its sources. Of course, this section is currently overwrought with information about persons and ideas that tell us little about Objectivism but much about those who abhor it. For example, Justin Raimondo is just another guy with a political point of view, and his opinion is hardly better than anyone else's. The accusation of a "death cult" is grossly provocative and does not fairly characterize what it criticizes. I'm going to excise it for that reason. In addition, the comparison to L. Ron Hubbard & Co. is particularly far fetched. I invite other fair-minded editors to help improve this section. Blanchette 22:10, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
The Criticism section is like half the article. How about we split it off into it's own article? All that irrelevent stuff about cults, etc is distracting from improving the description of the philosophy itself. The rest of the article needs a lot of work. RJII 17:50, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
(removing personal attack)
Gag, I agree with your conclusion, but I feel that the phrase "you randroids" is a bit too hostile to be productive. Al 19:23, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
False objectivity is bad. You see, I think we're both working for what we think constitutes WP:NPOV, WP:NOR, and WP:V. However, we disagree on precisely what that goal looks like. Al 21:58, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
As you've demonstrated, the proper alternative to biased pro-Rand editing is neutral editing, not biased anti-Rand editing. Al 23:02, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
It may be best if we focus on actions, not people, and not factions. Al 04:18, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Sounds good to me. Crazynas 05:41, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
GreedyCapitalist, we haven't resolved all the POV problems yet. There's still the issue of whether or not we should be calling this ideology a philosophy. If that bothers you, I don't care and Wikipedia doesn't either. We're here to create an unbiased article, not promotional material. We're not removing the POV tag until the problems are solved. And yes, I don't like Randists that much; with the way they act here, it's not hard to see why. -- LGagnon 00:02, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
"She knew in great detail of the conflicts -- such conflicts or disagreements as there were -- and as long as you could specify what you liked in terms that were understandable in reason (and that were not an assault on reason, as I indicated to you before) there's no such thing. It's a complete, total lie." http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/4082/rtat.html
-- GreedyCapitalist 00:03, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
(removing personal attack)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I believe the Ethics section needs to be rewritten as to become more formatted and systematic, in the "Man->The Good->Virtue" style that Peikoff uses to explain it, and the explanation that Rand gives as to the role that ethics plays in the title essay of The Virtue of Selfishness. As it stands now, the section is less of a summary and more of a third-person description. D prime 00:39, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Some portion of Objectivists may favor an esthetic of Romanticism, like Rand. However, I think there needs to be more support for stating that this philosophy officially prescribes a particular esthetic. I may have missed this somewhere so please clue me (us) in. -- Davidp 21:51, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
I would like if there were an image to go along with this to make it look less dry at first apperance. Perhaps a copy of Atlas Shrugged beside Peikoff's paperback describing the entire philosophy? Or maybe The Fountainhead, Atlas and all of the non-fiction anthologies? I would explain what they are at the end. Does anyone have any thoughts? D prime 16:43, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
I've taken the liberty of putting back the libertarian sidebar and disambig notice. There was never any good reason to remove the latter (see, e.g., the title of the book by Richard Bernstein — Beyond Objectivism and Relativism), nor was there even a proposal to do so. As for the libertarian sidebar, (a) no consensus was ever reached, (b) Rand was a libertarian under any definition thereof, and (c) it doesn't matter what she said—Camus is listed in Category:Existentialists, even though he explicitly disavowed the label. -- zenohockey 02:43, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
I see that D prime removed both the libertarianism sidebar and the disambiguation notice. These two aren't really related, and the discussion above doesn't show any opposition to the disambiguation notice. I've got no love for the bar (as explained above), but I strongly believe that the disambig is 100% appropriate. I've added that back. If there is some serious objection to it, I'd like to hear what it is. -- RL0919 23:09, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
In the discussion under "Libertarian Bar" at the top of the page, D prime suggests that the libertarianism sidebar should link to the Libertarianism and Objectivism article, rather than this one. I think that is a very good suggestion. Comments pro or con? -- RL0919 22:01, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
I propose that this article be moved to Rand's Objectivist philosophy or similar name, so that the article title reflects the content and makes the distinction clear. Also similer moves for other articles on Rands work, also rename the category Category:Books by Ayn Rand be renames to Category:Ayn Rand and the articles places there. Thoughs? -- Salix alba ( talk) 09:07, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Who is Rynd? -- Christofurio 17:20, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
I don't have any conclusion about the right solution, but there's definitely a real problem here that Pfafrich has pointed out. Mainly, the pages that involve Rand are not clearly labeled so as to distinguish the ones that don't. For example, how would anyone guess which of the following two is Randist: Objectivism (metaphysics) and Objectivist metaphysics? Maybe the Rand-specific topics ought to be named as such. For example, "Objectivism (metaphysics)" would be a general article, while "Objectivist metaphysics (Rand)" would be the specific one. Substitute "Randist" or "Randian" for "Rand" if you prefer. Alienus 23:24, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
The argument against the Objectivist view of causality appears to be original research. It would be interesting to learn of an authority who disputed what is specifically Objectivist, in particular the Objectivist insistence on 'entity to action' causality rather than 'action to action' causality. In any case, the argument made here was an argument against determinism per se and could be cited by reference to the "Determinism, quantum mechanics and classical physics" section in the Wikipedia article on Determinism. But please cite your source for this criticism, if you can find an authority who levels it specifically against Objectivism. Incidentally, if the subject interests you, I suggest you consult the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy which has a series of articles on the philosophical implications of quantum mechanics. You will find that the Copenhagen interpretation is far from satisfactory to many philosophers of science. It is a fascinating topic in it's own right but probably too vast and too tangential to merit a lengthy exposition in a survey article on Objectivism. Blanchette 22:22, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
I should think the reader would benefit from knowing the identities of some of these number of philosophers who find Rand's argument for atheism both laughable and embarrassing. While laughter and embarrassment often occur together, what are the odds of both sentiments being expressed by a number (greater than one) of philosophers with respect to this one issue? I think this is especially unlikely since, as far as I know, Rand's argument for atheism is that there is no evidence for the supernatural -- hardly a novel, or uniquely laughable and embarrassing position in the history of philosophy. I recall her offering a 'sense of life' reason to reject the notion of God as well, something along the lines of the concept of a being superior to man as demeaning to manifestly real human greatness (someone may have a reference for this), but she certainly did not offer that as a primary argument for atheism.
The entire paragraph, aside from the first sentence, which would qualify as common knowledge, would greatly benefit from a few citation of sources for the particular claims made, especially since the paragraph is a litany of emotion words (passion, derided, disgust, not... serious, dismissal, rehashes, errors, etc.) rather than of arguments. I'm sure knowing where to find the arguments would be worthwhile. Blanchette 23:22, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
There's a longstanding section in the Alan Greenspan (former chairman of the U.S. Federal Reserve banking system) that purports to cover Objectivist criticism of him. I think there are problems with it, but I hesitate to delete it, because IMO non-mainstream viewpoints like that should be treated inclusively on Wikipedia. I wondered if one of the editors here would take a look at it and perhaps improve it.
Here is the first bit of it: "Greenspan continues to support a gold standard and advocate laissez-faire capitalism [14] [15]. His support for a gold standard is somewhat of an irony given the Federal Reserve's role in America's fiat money. He has come under heavy criticism from Objectivist philosophers, most notably Leonard Peikoff and Harry Binswanger [16], as they believe that working for the Federal Reserve is an abandonment of Objectivist and free market principles. Increasingly, however, some Objectivists have come to believe that Greenspan has deliberately and with full intention engineered the downfall of the American economy."
So, you can probably see that there may be some issues there, at a minimum the section is insufficiently sourced. Hope someone here can improve it. DanielM 18:43, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
For those who may be interested, I am proposing a formal WikiProject to co-ordinate work on Objectivism-related articles here on Wikipedia. I have written a little about what I hope the project would achieve on my User page. Interested users should "sign" their usernames here. WikiProject guidelines suggest that at least 5 and ideally at least 10 users express an interest in a proposed project before a formal project page is set up. -- Matthew Humphreys 14:41, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
This section is POV in the extreme, I fear - a handful of books and a single journal without a major figure on its board do not constitute increased academic respect. And the idea that "many" academics dismiss Rand is understatement in the extreme. Rand is a joke in academic philosophy. To say otherwise is POV advocacy. Phil Sandifer 23:40, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
That's not at all the case. That most (albeit more than 'many') professional philosophers dismiss Rand (as I would expect them to, considering that modern philosophy is crap) does not equate to Rand being a 'joke in academic philosophy.' Obviously the section should state that most professional philosophers do not take Rand seriously, explain the common Objectivist responce, and cite what recognition she does have - which is pretty much what it does. D prime 00:35, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
While it is true that Rand's Objectivism hasn't gained widespread academic acceptance, neither has quite a lot of Continental philosophy in the United States. So also, Existensialism took quite a while to gain widespread acceptance in academic circles depending on where you are speaking about. This doesn't say anything about Objectivism's validity, only its degree of acceptance. It should be possible to re-write that section in a way that indicates those facts in a non-inflammatory way. Keep in mind this section is meant to convey something like an ethnography of Objectivism in academic philosophy. It's acceptance in academic circles also does not mystically anoint Objectivism as a "philosophy," but it may indicate that it is an accepted philosophy for the masses. That is all a matter of what authority you respect. Domhail 07:28, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Here's the text I removed.
It should also be noted that followers of many great personalities have come to magnify the person after being deeply affected by the ideas of that person. This does not by necessity reveal faults of either the person being idolized or the ideas they have shared. Furthermore, the social and intellectual image of her philosophy, which was somehow preserved by Rand during her life, was left in the hands of others after her death.
This was clearly added to spin some POV onto the otherwise critical passage. It appears to be OR and POV, so I've removed it. If it can be rewritten so that it cites some relevant, reliable sources, perhaps it should then be reinserted. Al 02:45, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
At List of groups referred to as cults there is a disagreement whether Objectivist philosophy is a cult. Can someone more knowledgeable volunteer a statement on the talk page? -- Pjacobi 07:54, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
And again the category was removed. I've put it back again; let's cut the POV and not remove it again. -- LGagnon 22:28, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
There's been a move-war over the naming of the Objectivism and homosexuality article, with LaszloWalrus repeatedly renaming it to Ayn Rand's views on homosexuality. I won't rehash the arguments here or otherwise prejudice interested parties. Instead, I ask that you consult the Talk page and participate in forming a consensus. Al 19:33, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Has anyone seen that in the Template:Satanism, among the Associated Concepts there is also Objectivism? It clearly must be deleted from there.-- Arado 13:16, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
As mentioned in Anton LaVey, Satanism has roots in a number of philosophies, including Objectivism. This is a historical fact and will not be removed. Al 17:00, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm looking for people with knowlege of Objectivisim to contribute to the Objectivist Wiki This project is just getting off the ground, and needs lots of love :). Crazynas 20:11, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
I tried adding www.strongatheism.net as an external link but someone removed it. The site is definately based on Objectivism even though it never directly identifies itself as that. I've noticed that Objectivists don't tend to identify their philosophy as Objectivism but instead label it as the only true and complete philosophy. Even though some of the philosophy makes sense they do seem to have a bit of a cult mentality. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mihils ( talk • contribs)
I strongly object to the presence of a link to a website (The Sociology of the Ayn Rand Cult) accusing Ayn Rand's admirers of being a "cult." Although such a link may have a place on the article on Ayn Rand herself, this particular article provides information on Objectivist philosophy, and if there should be any critical links, they should be critical about Objectivist ideas, not Objectivist people. Would anyone agree to this? A.T.
I agree; in the first place, Objectivism is not primarily a movement, but a philosophy. Most Objectivists are not involved in any movement. In the second place, criticism of Ayn Rand's character, whether valid or not, has little to do with the ideas of Objectivism. LaszloWalrus 09:44, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Ayn Rand defined Objectivism as "a philosophy for living on earth", not as a "movement." As LaszloWalrus pointed out, criticism of Ayn Rand's character, whether valid or not, has nothing to do with the ideas of Objectivism, which this Wikipedia article is about. Criticism of Objectivism in this article should be restricted to ideas, not persons or associations. I have a small group of Objectivist friends, and none of us are "card-carrying members" of the Ayn Rand Institute or any other organization, for that matter. - A.T.
Some of Ayn Rand's admirers may have formed a cult, but that cult is not "Objectivist philosophy", which is the title of this Wikipedia article. "Objectivist philosophy" is, as the term states, a philosophical system, something that that link does not deal with. Since you vehemently disagree, I won't eliminate the link, but respectfully urge you to consider it. A.T.
I wish I could disagree, but I can't. Al 21:10, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
There is a conflict on List of philosophers over whether Ayn Rand qualifies as a major philosopher. It might be of interest to editors here. I ask, however, that people make an effort to be objective on this matter, rather than voting based on their personal feelings. My pet philosopher isn't on this list, for example. Al 19:58, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Considering that her books have sold 20 millions copies and her huge following, and the relatively long length of the list, she certainly deserves to be on there. The list includes several philosophers who are/were less 'major' than Rand. D prime 06:22, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
The Criticism of Objectivism section is pathetic. It doesn't address any philosophical issues. It's just allegations of being a cult and other trivial stuff like that. Who cares? The philosophy itself should be critiqued --instead of all this peripheral stuff. Don't the opponents of Objectivism have anything more substantial to say? RJII 05:10, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
(removing personal attack)
After digging around a bit, I have to agree. Note that the issue of sock puppets is particularly sensitive given the AFD I placed on their new POV fork. Looks like Randists are trying to stack the deck against neutrality. Al 00:39, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
The point I had trouble getting across to RJ is that a writer with no academic credentials who refuses to submit to peer reviewed journals and threatens to sue anyone who criticizes her is, quite rightfully, going to be viewed as some flake, not a genuine philosopher. There are plenty of people who do this sort of thing, and they're soundly ignored. The only reason anyone in academia took notice of Rand at all is that she's a popular writer who is considered by some to be a philosopher, so it might be worth a paragraph or two to summarize and dismiss her. That's pretty much been the case until a few Randians grew up and got degrees that let them write about Rand. Al 15:25, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Gag says the article "takes on Objectivism both as a philosophy and as a cult". I suspect this qualifies as criticism. Al 16:27, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
We used to have a professor in our philosophy department who used one of Rand's books in his Introduction to Philosophy class. Not as an instructional guide for intro to phil, but as a guide for students as to what philosophy is not. Amerindianarts 16:46, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Look, let's pull back on the all-too-easy Rand-bashing. Under the bluster, RJII does have a legitimate point, which is that, to the extent that this article is supposed to be about a philosophy, it would be nice if we included more criticism of it as a philosophy.
The article that Gag linked to is a start. I'm sure there are others. As Amer pointed out, Rand is not at all well liked by people whose knowledge of philosophy doesn't begin and end with Atlas Shrugged, so this shouldn't be impossible. Al 17:22, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
I tagged just about every other sentence with a cite needed, we have no proof that any of those outside sources said what they said, and if they aren't properly sorced in a few days, they're gone. I also added {{weasel}} for obvious reasons.
Crazynas
17:26, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Ditto. While it's fair to ask for references, I think it's clear that these sentences are not really questionable. References will be found in time, but deletion is premature and would likely be reverted. Al 17:55, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I won't delete, but they DO need to be sorced. Crazynas 17:56, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm also going to work on sourcing when I can. Crazynas 17:57, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
I am not informed on objectivism, and so I am not ready to add to the page, but I believe that this read [3] by Nathaniel Branden has alot to add to the criticism section. Also, I must add that the criticism section has too much emphasis on the "cult problem", it should be mentioned but at the moment it seems like the focal point of the section. -- A Sunshade Lust 02:48, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
If Objectivism were exhibiting major characteristics of a cult in a pervasive manner, then it would be relevant to discuss in this article because what key proponents of a philosophy actually do can be reflective of the philosophy itself in some cases. However, ad verecundium arguments aside as to who in authority considers Objectivism a cult, I have read many of these allegations and have not found the arguments behind any of these accusations I have read thus far to be sound (I say this as someone who has extensive experience working with families who have loved ones in destructive cults). Contrary to what Shermer contends, having an affair and keeping it private from students and friends does not constitute cult deception. If it did, any academic institutions where such affairs have occured would also have to be labelled cults!-- MonicaPignotti 19:35, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
I believe the term "Objectivism" was first used by Fichte in a counter (alternative solution) to Kant's work. What he intended may not be the same as what is referred to in the article title "objectivist philosophy" Amerindianarts 05:14, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Yes I do. My comment was in regard to user Alienus' reference to the term and should be understood within the context of the discussion in this section. Amerindianarts 05:40, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
The move was a good one and I compliment LGagnon's efforts and motives. Objectivism is a loaded term, and an article title can open up a POV can of worms. To say that Objectivism is a philosophy is to use the term in lay terms, as in "My philosophy is", which is not a very technical usage of the term "philosophy". What objectivism is, is an ontological position within the discipline of philosophy, which attempts to establish epistemological parameters for objectivity (the propensity to be objective). Amerindianarts 21:38, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
"Philosophy" doesn't have a "technical usage." I've studied Albert Camus in Philosophy class. If that's philosophy, then surely something as systematic as Rand is philosophy. Why you guys are going so out of your way to discredit Objectivism without studying it or making any criticisms the philosophy itself is interesting. I'm going to learn about it before I condemn it. I've bought a couple books and will be studying it and hopefully improve this pathetic article. And, if I turn out to agree with it, you're going to call me a cultist, right? RJII 18:27, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
(removing personal attack)
(removing personal attack)
It is actually encouraged on Wikipedia for editors to "write for the enemy", and I support this policy. Who'd want to read an article on Objectivism written entirely by Objectivists?
In any case, American libertarianism is firmly aligned with the Republicans and their religious right agenda. Al 23:45, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
There's a whole article on this, but the short version is that Objectivists are libertarians. Al 00:28, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Your argument is based on a false premise, since Objectivists are aligned with the religious right. They vote Republican, not Democrat, and the Republicans are the religious right's home party. Of course, they're not voting Republican because they agree across the board with the fundie Christians. Rather, they agree on economic conservativism and anti-federalism. All three groups want to lower taxes, take away the social safety net and free corporations to do as they wish. On their points of disagreement, they hold their noses in political expediency. Apparently, they consider their commonalities more important than their differences. Al 00:53, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
All too often, Objectivists and other libertarians try to curry favor with liberals by arguing that their libertarianism is more consistently on the side of freedom. "We're the true liberals; come join us."
Then Bush comes along and puts this claim to the test. Even though liberals see him as the anti-Christ, libertarians tend to like him, but for his religious extremism. If libertarians were really close kin of liberals, you would imagine that Peikoff's endorsement of Kerry would be wholehearted, not a tepid lesser-of-evils nod. For that matter, you wouldn't expect someone of Binswanger's stature to endorse Bush.
The truth is that libertarians are so out of touch with reality that they don't fit well in either American political party. However, they have frequently allied themselves with the Republicans and will likely continue to do so, especially when the next Republican presidential candidate proves to be a little less obviously in the pocket of the religious right. Al 01:54, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
And so it all comes out. This Objectivism bashing is politically motivated. Isn't the point of studying philosophy to subject your beliefs to rational scrutiny? Don't oppose a philosophy for its conclusions but because it makes unsound and invalid arguments. But, the only criticism that seems to come from you guys has nothing to do with Rand's arguments. It's just that she supports laissez-faire capitalism, therefore you oppose her. So, to discredit Objectivism you criticize everything but the arguments themselves. Either this is because you don't know her arguments or you can't come up with any cogent objections. Which is it? RJII 02:38, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Uh, yeah, and it sure is a good thing that, as a socialist, Hitler was as far from fascism as he could get. :-) Extremes are hard to tell apart sometimes, eh? Al 05:05, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Reading these discussions, I cannot help but feel compelled to express my views. First of all, it is quite clear that many of the individuals writing against Objectivism lack the most basic knowledge about Objectivism. For instance, the individual who claims that Objectivism is associated with the religious right simply does not understand the first thing about Objectivist philosophy. Objectivism is totally atheistic and opposed to any form of supernaturalism or mysticism. Al, the individual who wrote that Objectivists vote for Republicans, unfortunately does not know what he is talking about. If he were to read Ayn Rand's writings on the subjects of conservatism and liberalism, he would learn that Ayn Rand viewed both camps as being of the same essence: pro-government, anti-freedom, the differences lying only in where the government should intervene and control. Objectivism is NOT a political philosophy. Politics is itself a branch of philosophy, one that studies the nature of governments and how men are to deal with eachother in a social context. However, BEFORE men can study how they are to deal with eachother, they must study how they themselves are to live, a topic that is covered by ethics. And before knowing how one is to live in this world, one must know the nature of the world he is in (metaphysics) and his means of understanding this world (epistemology). Ayn Rand's politico-economic conclusions are based upon volumes of epistemological-metaphysical-ethical thought, and so, as Leonard Peikoff once stated, politics is not the central theme of Objectivism. To claim that it is shows simply to the Objectivist reader that the accuser has obviously not read very many of Ayn Rand's non-fiction writings, and that he is basing his conclusions on biased sources. Objectivism is, as Ayn Rand directly stated on countless occasions, neither liberal (based on today's understanding of the word) nor conservative. Objectivism is not "proto-nazism." Objectivist politics states that the government's sole function is the protection of individual rights; other than that, hands off. (Please pardon me if this somewhat lengthy statement is not coherent or does not flow logically, but I taught myself English a few years ago, as Polish was my first language.) Adam T.
Alienus, with all due respect, in all of your comments, you have never offered any constructive criticism of Objectivist philosophy as a whole. Your statements are restricted to attacking Ayn Rand's followers, misrepresenting her political philosophy and making ludicrous statements about it such identifying Objectivism with "the religious right" (among other things). One cannot discuss Ayn Rand's philosophy with you if this is all you have to say. Do you have any comments about Objectivism's epistemological views, which Rand said were central to her philosophy? What about her metaphysical conclusions, which exemplify the concept of independent reality? What you are doing, sir, is simply bringing more credibility to the accusation that most critics of Objectivism are critical of Ayn Rand the person and not Ayn Rand the thinker. Adam T.
It's true that some philosophers believed in the concept of objective reality long before Ayn Rand, but what she did was, in many people's view, rediscover it in an age that had forgotten it. Whether other philosophers did it "better" than Rand is a matter of opinion. Could you elaborate a bit on what you call her "infallibilistic" epistemology? To my understanding, what Ayn Rand wrote on the subject was that an individual can achieve knowledge of the world around him through sensory perception and a scrupulous process of reasoning, but anything that is not learned by objective, rational means is not knowledge. Adam T.
I don't think much of your opinion that I don't know anything about the history of philosophy because it is just that: your opinion. It's easy to accuse a person with whom you disagree with ignorance, but that's not always the case. I think that logical positivism is quite irrational, and it differs from objectivism on many points. Adam T.
As I stated before, I, a native Pole, have never taken any formal English classes, and while my grammar may appear to be just fine, I spend a lot of time editing anything I may write to ensure that it says what I want it to say. Adam T.
Either way, I don't see why that should concern you. Adam T.
Alienus, as RJII stated, Ayn Rand did not believe that humans are capable of being infallible. Can you give an example from one of Ayn Rand's written works stating that she did indeed believe this? Thank you for clarifying the logical positivism thing. Adam T.
Al, I have read your link, and while I am now attempting to compile a general response to your accusation of infallibilism in Objectivist epistemology, I do just want to say that I wish that you wouldn't assume that since I admire Ayn Rand, I belong to her "cult of personality." I don't consider her to be the greatest human being to have ever lived, and I do not consider Atlas Shrugged to be the greatest literary achievement of all time. I believe that a person can disagree with Ayn Rand and still be "rational", and I believe that Ayn Rand herself was an awkward person. However, this doesn't change the validity of her ideas, most (but not all) of whom I accept to be true. Adam T.
Also, I do want to point out that I have a problem with your link's validity as the author himself states: "Since I don't have access to any of Rand's writings, I will have to base myself on second-hand sources and, especially, on the writing of Nathaniel Braden (formerly her number two) and the Objectivist Society web site to help me along the way." It's not fair for this person to write an article critical of Objectivism without first having read primary sources for the philosophy, such as her work on epistemology, "Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology." Adam T.
There are problems with the article Al cites, but it is useful enough for his purposes. RJII seems to confuse epistemological infallibism with the idea that everyone has infallible knowledge of the world. That claim is obviously false: only Ayn Rand has infallible knowledge of the world. Rand's epistemology is undeniably infallibistic. That is to say, she claims that absolute certain knowledge is attainable. Remember the Objectivist mantra: A is A. Is epistemological infallibism wrong? Who knows. My own knowledge is just too faulty to be able to tell... iggy talk 23:44, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Sorry to say it, RJ, but Gag has your number. Al 04:59, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Objectivism's epistemological stance is a rejection of the assersion that humans can't have any knowledge of the universe at all and that reason is impotent to comprehend reality. Objectivism states that humans can attain reliable knowledge only through sensory perception. Ayn Rand holds that sensory perception is axiomatically valid because it would be self-contradictory to say that the senses aren't sources of genuine knowledge, as making such a statement relies at least implicitly on the senses, since they are the only possible source of the alleged knowledge eof their validity. That's how I understand it. Adam T.
If I can't even tell whether I'm using my senses or not, how can they be infallible? Al 04:16, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
I just archived everything up to 2006, hope this cuts down the page load time some, all the stuff I archived is in Archive4. Crazynas 05:36, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
He's been adding some more POV lately. I've fixed some of it but I don't want to be doing this alone. Al 19:06, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. Please start by reverting your changes. Al 03:02, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
This article lacks sufficient discussion of her philosophy of value. That's major. I'm trying to comprehend it but have not been successful yet. If anyone understands it, please add to the article. It needs to be explained why Rand thinks life itself has to be the foundational value which makes all other values possible. RJII 03:00, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
And birds go 'tweet'. A corrolary is hardly unique or original, much less "distinctively Objectivist".
In order to value, you must live. In order to be alive, you must hold those values consistent with remaining alive. Therefore, whatever your other values are, you must value your continued existence in order to value anything else. Al 03:14, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
I never claimed she correctly applied these principles or understood them thoroughly. She operated on truthiness, not truth. Al 03:22, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
If someone can explain why she thinks that an immortal and indestructible being cannot value anything at all, then they understand why she thinks that a mortal human being must value life in order to value anything at all. For example, why can't an immortal being value an automobile? According to her, it couldn't --it would be a logical impossibility. I've been reading the arguments for that position but haven't been able to intuit them yet, so am not comfortable explaining it in the article. RJII 03:42, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
I realize that some of these matters may be genuinely hard for you to grasp, so I'm going to just assume good faith and repeat myself as clearly as I can. It's an error to claim that mortality is required for values. Rand is boldly conflating Is with Ought, without bothering to draw the complex path that connects the two. I hope that explains what I said before. Al 05:04, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
In other words, I know her argument and know it's wrong. Thank you so much for assuming good faith. Al 05:39, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm sure you think so. Thank you so much for sharing. Al 05:42, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Do you even know what an argument is, in philosophy? The argument is not the position --not what is being proved, but the proof itself. You don't know her arguments, so you are in no position to disagree with her conclusions. And, in no position to explain her arguments in this article. That a person has to be mortal and value life in order to value things, is not an argument. It's an assertion or conclusion. The argument is her reasoning that leads to that conclusion --something you're obviously not familiar with. I'm asking for someone familiar with her philosophy add her argumentation on "value" to the article. (And, to critique a philosophy, you don't critique the assertions but the reasoning that brings the philosopher to conclude that those assertions are true. Didn't they teach you that in Philosophy 101?) RJII 05:41, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Here's a stab at something for others to kick around (I am not an Objectivist or even all that sympathetic to Objectivism, so I won't just add this in). As I understand it, however, the thing for Rand which has moral value is not "life", but specifically human life, particular conscious human life which includes the ability to judge, that is the ability to discern right and wrong. Thus, she writes, "Man’s consciousness shares with animals the first two stages of its development: sensations and perceptions; but it is the third state, conceptions, that makes him man" (This much, I take it from the discussion above, is not getting to RJII's question). Further, Rand writes that "the living organisms that possess the faculty of consciousness need to exercise it in order to survive". The function of moral judgement — that is the action of the "conceptual" consciousness — is thus the promotion of survival. And hence "when [one's morality] is set to oppose his own life and mind, it makes him turn against himself and blindly act as the tool of his own destruction." What we can see underlying this is the words she puts in the mouth of John Galt: "‘Value’ presupposes a standard, a purpose and the necessity of action in the face of an alternative. Where there are no alternatives, no values are possible." Finally, "there is only one fundamental alternative in the universe: existence or non-existence—and it pertains to a single class of entities: to living organisms." Now we have here Ayn Rand's own words — what can we make of them? For Rand, moral values ultimately arise only in the struggle for existence — an immortal, indestructible, conscious being (which is, from Rand's perspective, purely hypothetical and probably not even worth discussing) cannot have values because there is no standard to measure these values. Remember that values are "objective" that is, are moral judgements are either true or false. The type of actions taken by an immortal indestructible being are a matter of total indifference — whatever such a being does, it will be alive and no more "objectively" worse off than it was before. Thus, only "life", that is, only the struggle for survival in the face of one's own imminent non-existence (death) is capable of moral values — is capable of genuine choice and freedom. Freedom, for Rand, is not just the ability to do something, but the ability to produce, to produce the means of survival. And that, as I understand it, is Rand's argument. iggy talk 06:33, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
To quote: "ill-thought out and unsystematic". Al 05:55, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
RJIII, in my basic understanding, here is how Objectivism explains it. Ayn Rand defines "value" as "that which one acts to gain or keep." Only living organisms can understand and follow the concept of value because it is only to living organisms that things, ideas, or situations can be good or bad. Why? Whereas matter is eternal - it changes forms, but nevertheless never goes out of existence - life is not, and must be preserved by the organism who values it. An indestructible robot, obviously not being alive, cannot pursue values. Adam T.
That fails to distinguish quality of life from quantity of life. Who wants to live forever in misery when there are better ways of living? Al 04:11, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
This section replaces the previous section on the same subject which was tagged for 'weaseling' in that it lacked citations for its claims. This current section was moved from the Ayn Rand article where it was hardly illuminating about Ayn Rand the person and replaced by a link to this location. It has the distinct advantage of citing its sources. Of course, this section is currently overwrought with information about persons and ideas that tell us little about Objectivism but much about those who abhor it. For example, Justin Raimondo is just another guy with a political point of view, and his opinion is hardly better than anyone else's. The accusation of a "death cult" is grossly provocative and does not fairly characterize what it criticizes. I'm going to excise it for that reason. In addition, the comparison to L. Ron Hubbard & Co. is particularly far fetched. I invite other fair-minded editors to help improve this section. Blanchette 22:10, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
The Criticism section is like half the article. How about we split it off into it's own article? All that irrelevent stuff about cults, etc is distracting from improving the description of the philosophy itself. The rest of the article needs a lot of work. RJII 17:50, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
(removing personal attack)
Gag, I agree with your conclusion, but I feel that the phrase "you randroids" is a bit too hostile to be productive. Al 19:23, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
False objectivity is bad. You see, I think we're both working for what we think constitutes WP:NPOV, WP:NOR, and WP:V. However, we disagree on precisely what that goal looks like. Al 21:58, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
As you've demonstrated, the proper alternative to biased pro-Rand editing is neutral editing, not biased anti-Rand editing. Al 23:02, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
It may be best if we focus on actions, not people, and not factions. Al 04:18, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Sounds good to me. Crazynas 05:41, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
GreedyCapitalist, we haven't resolved all the POV problems yet. There's still the issue of whether or not we should be calling this ideology a philosophy. If that bothers you, I don't care and Wikipedia doesn't either. We're here to create an unbiased article, not promotional material. We're not removing the POV tag until the problems are solved. And yes, I don't like Randists that much; with the way they act here, it's not hard to see why. -- LGagnon 00:02, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
"She knew in great detail of the conflicts -- such conflicts or disagreements as there were -- and as long as you could specify what you liked in terms that were understandable in reason (and that were not an assault on reason, as I indicated to you before) there's no such thing. It's a complete, total lie." http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/4082/rtat.html
-- GreedyCapitalist 00:03, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
(removing personal attack)