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I'm primarily talking about the general article quality, its English, its layout, etc. The 'contradiction' that's almost inherent in a Wikipedia article about Objectivism is the fact that it's difficult to be impartial about an ideology that holds itself to be factually correct; for any particular instances of this, I'd have to go through it, which I will.
Can it really be right to have the philosophy of someone who denounced Libertarianism as part of the 'libertarian ring.'? I'm sure that a lot of people who like, or would want to learn about, R.R. would also want to read about The Soviet Union, but the two wouldn't be categorized as though they're the same thing. Most Libertarians, and many Objectivists, would claim that the two don't contradict; this can be put into the article. However, being impartial doesn't consist of intending that whatever 'many' people think is valid. D prime 16:58, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
I'd argue to the death against that association. However, it's not necessary, because Wikipedia's policy on controversy wouldn't have us try to debate until everyone associated with the article came to a consensus on what Ayn Rand should have labled her philosophy as. Its policy is being impartial.
Everyone knows and 'agrees' that Objectivism is Ayn Rand's philosophy, pure and simple. She named it, she developed it, etc. etc. It is what she calls it. She also disassociated it from libertarianism. Therefore, despite allegations (even if they were correct,) that it should be considered a libertarian philosophy, it isn't.
Objectivism doesn't hold words to be made up of their definition, but by what they refer to; definitions, according to the Objectivist epistemology, are a clarification of what the referent is. She did not agree that what 'libertarian' refered to was compatible with Objectivism, and seeing as 'Objectivism' is Ayn Rand's philosophy, you cannot classify it as a libertarian philosophy. D prime 00:03, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
On libertarian: Kindly observe that Rand herself created the conceptual framework adopted under the banner of "libertarian" on April 17, 1947. "...agree that no men or number of men have the right to *initiate* the use of force against any human being... that would achieve a perfect Utopia on earth, that would include all the moral code we need." (Letters... p. 364) translator
First of all, Rand didn't say that. She also wouldn't have.
The difference is that libertarianism is an ideology, while atheism is merely a term denoting the lack of having a theologic(al?) ideology; 'atheist' like, say, 'not communist' is merely a description of someone who doesn't believe in something, and is not an actual set of ideas. Libertarianism, however, is a set of ideas, and she did not believe that what the term 'libertarian' referred to (see her and Peikoff's writing on definitions v. referants in Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology) was consistent with Objectivism, because Libertarianism (according to Rand, who developed Objectivism) supports/implicates a dichotomy between politics and more basic philosophical ideas. She also believed that politics is a direct result of morality, and that the justifications given by 'libertarians' are wrong.
You may be thinking something along the lines of 'Okay, capitalism isn't merely a negative, and Rand supports it, even though not all who support capitalism agree with Rand.' The difference is that (according to Rand and myself) capitalism is not a movement, and refers to something more concrete, i.e. a dichotomy between state and economics, while libertarianism is. (Really, if libertarianism weren't a movement or prinicple, but merely the alleged political implications of their ideology, then it and 'lassiez-faire capitalism' would be interchangable.) Obviously Rand disagress with most interpritations of the word 'libertarian,' and seeing as Objectivism is 'the philosophy of Ayn Rand,' every part of the article called 'Objectivism' must be described as what she believed, not as what most on Wikipedia think is compatible with the rest of her ideas.
If they don't have anti-nazi POV on the Hitler article, I think we can avoid having a biased POV on this because most people believe the rest of her ideas are compatible with it, even though the formulator didn't. D prime 02:36, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Post-note: if those are the words of Ayn Rand herself, they are being taken out of context and/or are being translated from Russian badly (probably the first.) She did not believe morality was primarily, let alone exclusively, a social construct. She would never have said that 'not initiating force' is all one needs for morality. Also, she hadn't written anything political before the publication of Atlas Shrugged, which was in the 1950s. I believe that her own explicit statements against libertarianism hold more yield than the similiarities between what she said in a letter and what most libertarians consider to be the essence of their philosophy.
Lastly, you should consider the Rand quotes referenced here: http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=education_campus_libertarians D prime 02:43, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
As I explained, the Libertarianism side-bar on other pages already has a link to Objectivism. Ayn Rand did speak against libertarianism, but her views were themselves libertarian. As the article points out, her complaint was mostly on the basis of libertarians not accepting all of Objectivism. What's funny is that you vandalized that side-bar, which I've since fixed. I'm going to fix your changes here, too, since you have no factual basis. By the way, removing text without explanation is a type of vandalism, so you should avoid making that mistake again. Alienus 23:24, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
The section on principles is not currently written in NPOV. Each principle is critiqued in the section purporting to describe it. This leaves the article with no section objectively describing the principles. This section should be rewritten with critical arguments against the principles relocated to the section on criticism.
Any one else find it ironic that there's a lack of 'objectivity in the article about objectivism? Olleicua 23:09, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
Whether or not contemporary philosophers respect it, it's still a 'philosophy,' by definition. 70.29.230.230 21:16, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Amerindianarts. It is not 'crackpotism' (whatever that is) to make it clear that Objectivism is not taken seriously as a philosophical school in mainstream philosophy departments. You may as well argue that the lack of support for astrology in mainstream scientific study is irrelevent to the question of whether astrology should be considered a real science. Huple scat 01:24, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Crackpotism is pontification from a position of total ignorance. Did either Amerindianarts or Alienus look at the discussion at talk:list of philosophers before posting these responses? Michael Hardy 03:46, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Alienus, you are, and continue to be, the one whose comments are not grounded in the facts. You say that "her supporters have made a point of getting her name into journals". That is largely false. That's why it has taken so many decades. Rand was urged by John Hospers to publish in scholarly journals but was not convinced. For a long time, most of her followers who wrote, did so mainly elsewhere than in scholarly journals. Only in the the last 15 years or so has it begun to be commonplace to find professors who support her philosophy. Many professors who have cited her in scholarly journals have done so in order to disagree with her. Prof. Robert Nozick at Harvard was not one of her supporters, so his statement that she was worthy of attention was not a case of "her supporter mak[ing] a point of getting her name into journals". When a professor of theology at a Catholic university did the same thing, ditto. You want facts? Look at talk:list of philosophers. I ask you again: have you in fact read that? Michael Hardy 21:53, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
The summary of the basic concepts was removed because, according to philwelch, he already wrote a 'better' summary like this and it was taken off. I don't know why it was removed, and perhaps he should have put his old one back as a replacement. My summary was added because the previous intro, all of which still existed under the summary, was basically unreadable to someone who didn't already know every thing about Objectivism and study it as a pass time like ourselves. Unless I get a reasonable argument, or, philwelch brings back his old basic summary that was taken back, I'm putting my extremely simplified one back at the top. (I stole most of it from the 'Ayn Rand' page and was told that there's nothing wrong with having it on two pages.) D prime 22:18, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
How about we use quotes as a more complicated summary, and, in paragraph form, proceed it with a simpler one? D prime 02:57, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
They wont be formatted to look very seperate, but we need a more simplistic statement of Objectivism overall so that people who aren't philsophy nerds understand it. 207.35.188.13 18:34, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
It was slightly hard to understand if you weren't already aware of Objectivism or philosophy in general. Some one added a paragraph to the top to clarify. Thanks! D prime 01:22, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
Wow, this is an in-depth page. I know nothing about objectivism, and I'm afraid I'm non the wiser after looking at this page. Perhaps those of you who know a lot about the subject could try to make a very simple definition so uninformed people have a vague idea of what objectivism basically is? And it seems to me that people without specialist knowledge would find browsing this page very difficult.
I fancy my self a Randroid and would like to drastically change the intro, as to make it more comprehensible for some one who doesn't study Objectivism as a hobby. I find that the basic concept is better put in the Ayn Rand article, but I don't want to repeat the same couples of paragraphs in different articles; in fact, I don't want to reword them either. How would one feel if I took the short summary on Rand's ideas out of the Ayn Rand article, put it in the intro to this one, and replaced the space in the Rand article with a normal English summary, opposed to laid-out point-form like the one I'd be moving here. I should probably do it with as little deletion as possible. Does any one, especially people who have worked on the intro in the past, have any input? I don't want to go arbitrarily changing the beginning of a large article too bluntly. D prime 04:54, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I will do so later tonight. Sorry for the delay. D prime 22:14, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I finally changed the intro to include a basic summary of Objectivism. Does any one have any suggestions as far as how/if I should include basic summarys at the beggining of each subject? D prime 15:00, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The entire article is confused. Most sections are filled with what appears to be Objectivist jargon, which has not been defined or identified anywhere in the article. This is not ok. This is not a meeting place for objectivist experts, nor an area for debate and answering of objections, but an article in a reference work.
It may be that Objectivism is in fact as confused and poorly stated as this article is. However, I choose to suspend my believe that a philosophy of this quality could possibly attract as many followers as Objectivism seems to have attracted. I propose that the article be restarted from scratch, and the length and quality of edits be carefully monitored to prevent the abomination that is there currently from coming back. No one with even the slightest education in philosophy could seriously propose what is found in this article.-- Ltbarcly 23:52, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I think that the criticisms section should be rewritten as a summary of all significant, published criticisms of Objectivism as a philosophy. Criticisms of Objectivism as a movement would go to the much-needed Objectivist movement article while personal criticisms of Ayn Rand would go to the Ayn Rand article. The main exposition here needs some significant improvement too--it's been very much messed with.
The Criticisms section should not catalogue every conceivable difference between Objectivism and every other philosophy, religion, worldview, or personal opinion in existence. It should not be a dumping ground for "Wikipedians' critiques of Objectivism". The criticisms section is a train wreck as it is. Similarly, will you people stop making unilateral decisions as to whether or not it's even in the article?
I'll work on an edit of the criticisms section. Y'all argue and vote here about whether or not we have it in the main article. I no longer care, but I'll help enforce whatever we agree on.
Philwelch 09:40, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I've reformed the Criticisms section into a Response section (as some parts of it weren't and aren't actually criticisms) and deleted stuff that clearly wasn't attributable to any given critique of Objectivism. The rest might have to be changed and moved back to the Bibliography. Philwelch 20:30, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I don't understand what a section on "Criticism of Rand's reading of the history of philosophy" is doing in an article about Objectivism. Isn't that something like having a section criticizing Einstein's political views in an article on his Theory of Relativity? I suggest that it be moved to the Ayn Rand page. Serge 19:00, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC) all of you hear this, the actual quality of this article is irrelevant. this may seem like an opprobious statement to make, but i am far more apalled by the articles ridiculous attempt at balance. this is an article projecting objectivist philosophy to intelligent laymen- there is no place for pedantry like "response to objectivism". All this belongs in Rand's biography, which would have to include the criticisms because of the fact that a biography is a journalistic report of all the events in a person's life please pursue an end based approach to any further editing and don't nitpick over silly non essentials like the language. for this, all of you self appointed philosopher historians have to define your end. as an example, see the article on existentialism- the part dealing with responses and critiques is tiny
Philwelch, can I ask why you removed St Augustine from the primary of consciousness discussion (I didn't put him in, but still wonder why you removed him; why you removed "and the role of" from Epistemology:reason (which makes it look as though they are the same thing); and why you removed "what she called" from "what she called objective reality", because as you know this phrase is fraught with difficulty, and to leave it there without a quote and without a definition makes either Rand or the authors of this article look stupid. If it's what Rand called it, then "what she called" is accurate. You also removed my insertion that Kantian scholars would dispute Rand's view of Kant; and instead just removed his name entirely, even though Rand listed him as an idealist. I'd appreciate if you'd explain your problems with my edit. Slim 21:18, Dec 16, 2004 (UTC)
Thanks for your explanation, Phil. Slim 02:04, Dec 17, 2004 (UTC)
Objectivism is not "metaphysics, epistemology and morality combined". Objectivist Morality is implied from Objectivist Metaphysics and Epistemology. Had reality been different, Morality would have changed accordingly. Avi.aharon 17:40, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Lot's of talk, little action. I propose we make a modest start by fixing the intro. Currently:
Objectivism is the name chosen by Ayn Rand for her philosophy. She characterizes it as a philosophy "for living on earth": grounded in reality, and aimed at facilitating knowledge of the natural world and harmonious, mutually beneficial interactions between human beings.
Broadly speaking, Objectivism combines a realist, empiricist, secular, naturalistic orientation in metaphysics and epistemology with an egoistic ethics of human flourishing and a social philosophy of capitalism and individual liberty.
One major theme of Objectivist philosophy is a focus on the potential of the individual human being...
Honestly, have we really said anything at all at this point? Not really! Maybe nihilism doesn't focus on the potential of the human being, but most other philosophies do. Most philosophies are for "living on earth", eg the late Bernard Williams who seriously wondered "What does it mean to live well?". I'm not saying we can't mention these points, i'm just saying that they don't help us newcomers much, who are wondering, "What the hell is objectivism? I remembering hearing about subjectivism..how come i've never heard of this?". I think it might help to start a bit with subjectivism, something peopl are are familiar with, and then contrast it with objectivism. WARNING: I DONT KNOW WHAT THE HELL I'M TALKING ABOUT!
Proposed start (edit the crap out of this!)
Objectivist philosophy, often simply called "Objectivism", was introduced by the novelist and philosopher
Ayn Rand in the middle of the
20th century. The
antithesis to
subjectivism, in which a person's conception of reality can be influenced by their thoughts and feelings, Rand's philosophy states that reality is that which we see in the world around us, and exists just as it is regardless of individual perceptions and judgements. This nature-centric way of thinking about the universe, alongside a focus on man's ability to
reason, led Rand to what she considered to be an ideal way of "living on earth". <to be continued>
-- Alterego 07:07, Feb 2, 2005 (UTC)
Fine, I wrote a second paragraph in the opening. Are you happy now? Philwelch 19:07, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)
As, er...demanded by popular demand, I've started some major work on the article, rewriting the intro (I bailed out and let old Ayn do the part of actually summarizing Objectivism) and split Objectivist movement into a separate article. Anything else anyone wants done? Philwelch 08:20, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Seeing as Wikipedia is a general encyclopedia and not an encyclopedia of philosophy, we should avoid writing in "philosophy-geek" in favor of plain English wherever possible, especially in say, the opening, where the basic subject matter should be comprehensible to those outside the field. If we must slip into philosophic jargon later in the article we can do that, but the main (and, frankly, most spot-on) criticism of this article is that it's incomprehensible to the roughly 99% of the internet-viewing population that does not consist of philosophy geeks. I'm a philosophy geek myself, as is, I suppose, everyone who bothers to edit philosophy articles. But philosophical jargon is only understood by philosophy geeks, with the effective result of holding back information from the unwashed. Unfortunately, this runs exactly counter to the purpose of Wikipedia. Philwelch 00:27, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The intro is looking a lot better now. A couple things; I don't think starting the second paragraph of a long entry with "in summary" works. Also, describing objectivism as "existence exists" is going to get a newbie confused with Existentialism. "Existentialism is a philosophical movement emphasizing individualism, individual freedom, and subjectivity." On those lines, we are pretty much OK up until that subjectivity part :) "Objectivism emphasizes actuality?" or how about "Objectivism emphasizes reality?"-- Alterego 04:27, Feb 5, 2005 (UTC)
(libertarian sidebar issue moved to end)
The following deleted section has little to do with Objectivism and much to do with Ayn Rand's own understanding of other philosophers. I have removed it and placed it here in case someone wants to transplant the content into Ayn Rand. Philwelch 20:20, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
In Ayn Rand's work, the criticism of other philosophers, especially Kant, is an integral part of her own philosophizing -- it sets the problems that she believed she has solved. She believed, in short, that the problems of the modern world are philosophic problems, i.e. the uncritical acceptance of Kantianism (as she understood it) and that the world can be vastly improved (turned into one big Galt's Gulch) by the acceptance of her own philosophy. So criticism of her scholarship is not a separate issue from criticism of her philosophy, and this should be acknowledged to properly round out this article. -- Christofurio 13:39, Mar 3, 2005 (UTC)
Can someone add a set of links to "scholarly criticism" at the end of the article? I'm too new to know how to do it, but I think it would be valuable.
Especially in the title essay of her early work, For the New Intellectual, Rand levels serious accusations against canonical historical philosophers, especially David Hume, Immanuel Kant, G. W. F. Hegel, Karl Marx, Friedrich Nietzsche, and Herbert Spencer. In her later book, Philosophy: Who Needs It?, she repeats and enlarges upon her criticisms of Kant, and she also accuses famed Harvard political theorist John Rawls of gross philosophical errors. Some have accused Rand of misinterpreting the works of these (and other) philosophers. And some have faulted Rand for failing to provide documentation to support her interpretation of these philosophers' views.
In particular, Rand is criticized for her reading of Immanuel Kant, whose philosophy she frequently denigrates as the opposite of Objectivism. Some critics take issue with Rand's interpretation of Kant's metaphysics: like early critics of Kant, Rand interprets Kant as an absolute idealist. It is a long-standing question of Kant scholarship whether this interpretation is correct; in the second edition of the Critique of Pure Reason, Kant claimed that his transcendental idealism was different from absolute idealism. Contemporary philosophers such as Jonathan Bennett, James van Cleve, and Rae Langton continue to debate this issue.
Other critics focus on Rand's reading of Kant's ethical philosophy. Rand alleges that Kantian ethics is a version of altruism, an ethics of self-sacrifice. Kant's defenders claim that Kantian ethics is primarily an ethics of reason, because the categorical imperative amounts to a demand that the intent behind one's actions be logically consistent, or in Kantian terminology, that "the maxim of one's act be universalizable." In Rand's favor, Kant clearly does maintain (in his Groundwork for the Metaphyiscs of Morals) that an action motivated by inclination or self-interest is entirely lacking in moral worth. Still, fewer commentators have agreed with Rand's characterization of Kantianism as self-sacrificial. The contemporary philosopher Thomas E. Hill has explicitly defended Kant against this charge in his article, "Happiness and Human Flourishing in Kant's Ethics," in the anthology Human Flourishing.
Why is there a bar on the side linking Objectivism with Libertarianism, one is a philosophy and one is a political position (with a variety of philosophical backgrounds) Crazynas 04:36, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I thought about it, and decided to remove the sidebar. While Objectivism is important to libertarians, libertarianism is relatively unimportant to objectivists. Dave 05:14, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)
Objectivism could be considered alike to Libertarianism, but it is in no way factually affiliated with it. http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=education_campus_libertarians I see absolutely no controversy as to whether the 'Philosophy of Ayn Rand' as it is put in the beggining of the article is affiliated with libertarianism. She said that she has more respects for Marxists, which means that you could more accurately put this page in the 'communist series'.
Can someone add a set of links to "scholarly criticism" at the end? I'm too new to know how to do it, but I think it would be valuable.
In my opinion, few readers will want to see the line-by-line details of working out objectivist epistemology unless they're willing to click on objectivist epistemology, rather than just "objectivism." Most non-objectivists are interested in the ethics and politics part. I spun off metaphysics and epistemology for this reason. I hope both can be expanded again on this page, but in more of an overview rather than a list of random tenets of objectivism listed one-by-one. Dave 06:04, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)
A good article, as much as any brief article can capture an individual's world view or describe a philosophy.
The one thing that could make it more understandable to the average reader would be more examples. Rand gave concrete descriptions of what a society operating under the tenents of objectivism would look like. In that sense, it's a philosophy with political and social implications. There's some mention of that -- government should only have limited police and military power, for example.
Was Rand calling for political action? Did she prescribe specific behavior? Did her philosophy support freedom of religious practice? Does objectivism have a position on any of the important questions in today's world, such as the dealth penalty, public education, marriage, abortion, taxes?
I don't have the knowledge or understanding to contribute directly, and I know it's a tall order, but there are smart people here. -- DavidH July 3, 2005 20:41 (UTC)
It said "... her intellectual heir (Leonard Peikoff)." I changed it to just "... Leonard Peikoff".
Peikoff is Rand's heir, i.e. he inherited her copyrights, manuscripts, etc. He may be among her "intellectual heirs", if that term is understood to mean those who follow her ideas. But, contrary to urban legend, she did not call him her "intellectual heir" nor appoint him a sort of successor as leader of the movement, who was to be the only person bearing that title. Before she split up with Nathaniel Branden, she called him her "intellectual heir". Are we to suppose she made the same mistake a second time, after getting burned that way? When I saw him speak at the Ford Hall Forum, the MC said "he has been called [her] intellectual heir", but didn't say who called him that. It seems he was carefully avoiding attributing the statement to Rand. Michael Hardy 6 July 2005 01:29 (UTC)
Hi, I removed this line:
[By "dogma" in this context, libertarian critics mean "integrity", i.e., uncompromising allegiance to the Truth.]
For a few reasons:
Sorry if that's stepping on anyones toes, but I don't think that wikipedia should be claiming any philosophy is Truth with a capital T, especially this one, and least of all in a section about those who disagree with it. I'm surprised that was even in there for so long. -- Anonymous
It's a good edit. I'm an Objectivist myself; frankly, whoever put this in either has no idea about Objectivism, no idea about the rules of Wikipedia. If we abandon the need to assume good faith for a moment, whoever added that could be an agent provacateur or troll, trying to make Objectivists look like dogmatists; I've never seen an Objectivist write "truth" with a capital letter. LaszloWalrus 10:59, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
I just removed the following section that was recently added under the "Responses to Objectivism" header. It appears to be one writer's personal commentary on Objectivism rather than the repetition of a common critism. No prior sources were given, and what appears to be the author's personal email address was included at the end of the comment.
<begin cut text>
[Objectivism essentially rejects ideas of mysticism due to it's irrationallity. However, it's weakness may lie in it's inability to reflect the needs of the subconscious which is inherently more complex and irrational. Instead the focus of objectivism is on the ego and conscious structures and as such operates in opposition to such wider structures (the truth is grey and varied). Hence, as an ideology it is dangerous in that logical justifications can be made and held as truisms for actions that are immoral in a wider/foreign context (viz. US foreign policy).] - markville@gmail.com <end cut text>
-- RL0919 06:19, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
Just passing by. I found this passage kind of strange: "Critics, however, point to the fact that creativity is only possible within a reasonable secure financial framework...many of the greatest artists lived in poverty... ." So, the critics are saying that you need substantial money to be creative, and many creative people didn't? Doesn't that defeat the argument? Maybe some rephrasing is in order. If someone who understands the criticism doesn't rephrase it, I'll figure out a better way. 24.162.140.213 22:08, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
This criticsm was lame, so I removed it. (Dean Michael Gores 15 Aug 2005) Why: 1. It seems like it tries to apply the idea "The rich get richer and the poor get poorer"... which is simply rediculous in pure capitalism. (Why would the poor get poorer? Doesn't their standard of living actually increase when the rich get richer? How does that make poor people poorer?) 2. If artists etc need funding, then capitalism would be the best place for them, because capitalism provides the potentially highest standard of living... and more people would have more resources to spend on art.
Note that a few places that I am unhappy with phrasing are marked with asterisks, and specific comments on that phrasing follows the rewrite. Links and formatting is omitted here it didn't cause an itch so I didn't scratch it.
--
Objectivism is the philosophy of Russian-born American philosopher and author Ayn Rand, first set out as the principles behind characters in her fiction works and later described in non-fiction books and essays. Objectivism is a *comprehensive philosophy; that is, it *describes a Metaphysics, Epistemology, Ethics, Politics, and Esthetics. As formulated by Rand, each successive branch of the philosophy follows logically from the previous branches and rational observation. Rand contrasted her philosophy with academic philosophies, contending that Objectivism is a philosophy necessary for and *understandable by every man.
Objectivism holds that reality exists independent of consciousness, whether human or supernatural; reason is the only method of gathering knowledge and only the individual rational mind can process these data; the proper moral purpose of one's life is to pursue one's own rational self-interest; and finally laissez-faire capitalism with a _minarchist government is the only moral social system. Ayn Rand *also set out a system of Esthetics, *favoring Romanticism.
Objectivism derives its name from the conception of knowledge and values as objective. Rand rejected intrinsic values (such as "natural parks have a value within themselves independent of anyone's use of those parks") and intrinsic concepts (that is, she denied that the notion of catness somehow exists within a cat itself) as well as subjectivism (by which Rand means "created by [one's] feelings, desires, 'intuitions,' or whims"). Rather, properly formed concepts and values are objective in the sense that they meet the specific cognitive and/or biocentric needs of the individual. Valid concepts and values are, as she wrote, "determined by the nature of reality, but to be discovered by man's mind." "Objectivism" was actually a secondary choice for the name of her philosophy; her first choice, "Existentialism," had already been appropriated by Jean-Paul Sartre.
Many use Rand's own brief summary given while standing on one foot as the official simplified description. [2]
--
Notes:
One final note: it's a couple hours after my bedtime but I'm posting this anyway, since this is 'just' the talk page. Comments welcome, of course, which is why it's here. Heresiarch 07:32, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
The article states: "...because it is the only system where humans are barred from initiating the use of physical force upon each other." But it does not explain how, other than by physical force, this bar is to be enforced. People or organizations that use or attempt to use "physical force" (this includes governments, gangs, police forces, court officials such as bailiffs, private police, armies, mercenaries, and so on) do not respond well to exhortations not to use force. Seemingly, the only way to enforce (sic) Ms. Rand's injunction not to use force is by the use of force, so she is Begging the question.
Good point - I missed that word. I was going to agree, at first. But on further thought, I still think the concept is meritorious in principle but unrealistic. For example, in many revolts, such as Algeria (against the French), Hungary (1956), and so on, the authorities would claim that "terrorists" were initiating the violence. You tell me who is initiating the violence between the militant Palestinians and Israel. Similarly, the police often beat up someone and charge him with resisting arrest. You try to figure out in which cases the police are right, and justified, and in what cases they went too far. In the last analysis, the party able to apply the most force usually wins. There is no arbiter equipped to decide who "initiated" the use of force. Carrionluggage 19:39, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
Should this article mention that fact that many opponents and neutral parties to Ayn Rand's beliefs and ideals refer to them simply as 'Randism' due to the inherent bias of the term 'objectivism' (which assumes that Rand's beliefs and ideals are the correct ones), or should that fact be forbidden from inclusion, as Dominick prefers? Due to this dispute, the NPOV tag has been added. Do not remove it. 19:19, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
Of course the terms 'objectivism' and 'rationalism' are inherently biased, and the approximately 1000 google hits from various sources definitively proves that the term 'Randism' is not a neologism. As hard as you argue, you can not turn a term with 1000 google hits into a neologism, because A = A. -Ironic that a supposed 'objectivist' does not recognize that. As for my personal experience, I personally have used the word 'Randism' to describe Ayn Rand's beliefs without having heard that term before, due to the subjectivity of Rand's own self-descriptive terms, and I have known an other person who has done the same. I am therefore surprised by the 1000-fold difference in google hits. See that's the difference between Randists and anti-Randists. The former chirp the terms 'objectivism' and 'rationalism' at the top of their lungs like starlings, so as to popularize them, to make their publicity compensate for their inaccuracy, whereas the anti-Randists feel no such need to chirp loudly, but instead use the terms more casually. Anyway, I strongly support objectivism aka rationalism, which is why I am strongly opposed to the subjective and irrational beliefs and ideals of Ayn Rand. 23:16, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
A google search for the similar term 'Randian' yielded 80,000 hits as compared to 680,000 for 'objectivist'. That's 1 to 8.5, so 'Randian' is a major alternative term to the deceptive term 'objectivist'. In the google hits, I have also seen the term 'objectivism' used in single quotes, to denote it's deceptiveness. Dominick's illogical comparison of a term of obvious meaning and a random term, his lie (which can be disproven via google) that the term 'Randism/Randist' was created and popularized by just one person, his discrediting of objective facts as mere insults, his libelous discrediting of the opposition so as to attempt to invalidate it, his projection of his own bad manners onto the opposition, and his removal of the NPOV tag to suppress the opposition rather than face it, further demonstrates the weakness of his position. That's it then, the ultimate clincher, yet Dominick still has not restored the deleted criticism, or even the NPOV tag. Oh by the way, Dominick- I don't think that anyone here is trying to change YOUR mind, or the mind of any Randists. I don't know about 66.90, TodFox, or 24.101, but as a mostly-genetic determinist, I already consider all of you to be a lost cause. I only desire to inform and enlighten unbiased third parties. 18:41, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
...Being as multiple people believe that the objective alternative terms should be mentioned in the criticism, I will restore the mention of said criticism. Dominick- I ask that you follow wikipedia's strict NPOV policy and do not make POV vandalist deletions of that criticism. I wouldn't be surprised if Dominick did though, as he has already played unfairly by the various methods that I mentioned. 19:56, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
Looks like you've gone off the deep end. I don't know Dominick, but he made a reasonable point about the term Randism which is used by almost nobody. The terms Randianism and Randian are very widely used, but they weren't the ones that Dominick was addressing! And Randian has a different shade of meaning than objectivist. Especially since the Peikoff/Kelley split ... Randian refers to one side of that split, "neo-objectivist" to the other, and they both claim the label "objectivist." -- Christofurio 23:24, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
(SNIP personal attack, read the policy
WP:RPA. If you really need to see it look at history, left the comments that were not directed at me.
Dominick
(????)
20:26, 26 October 2005 (UTC))
"I'll let any third parties judge whether my minor addition to my argument was adequete grounds for, or had anything at all to do with, Dominick suppressing my criticism (which he did before I even made the RFC) and suppressing the NPOV tag. As for RFC protocol, I followed it in most respects, and Dominick has not even attempted to state any specific manner in which I violated said protocol." "Anyway, everything that I have said about Dominic is intended to inform and enlighten people about his character and motives so that people understand him." -This is part of the material that Dominick deleted
I'll also say that the statement "I don't have a dog in the fight between the objectivist groups." (I assume that this is supposed to mean that Dominick has no position on the issue of whether or not he supports Randism) strongly and clearly contradicts the statement "Calling this by any name other than Objectivism is not factual.". The former quote might also refer to the libelous personal attack that he made earlier of 66.90 so as to attempt to invalidate his/her comments.
"Without discussion of any other sort you put the PoV tag up, and after discussion it came down." -Dominick stated that he would remove the NPOV tag if there were no comments within 24 hours. There were comments, and he broke his word and took down the tag anyway. View the history to confirm this. 20:14, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
Via RFC: I was going to make a comment that yes it should mention that, then I looked at the actual article and honestly, I laughed. I'm sorry, but suggesting that Ayn Rand "developed objectivism" is ridiculous. Objectivism can't "developed", it is a philosophical perspective. You might say she "examined objectivism." And then there is all the stuff about capitalism? Wow. Obviously a bunch of Ayn Rand's followers have taken over the article. You don't see subjectivism saying... wait.. it says... what the hell? The subjectivism article redirects to whatnow...? Sheesh. Oh wait, there's a tiny subjectivism section and bahahahaahha it says " given his reliance on God as the prime mover of human perception." Good luck, these articles really don't make any sense to me. Craziness.-- Ben 12:17, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
Why would the article use Randism throughout the article when she called her philosophy objectivism?
Why would the article not mention in the criticisms or controversies section that some people don't like the term objectivism because of what it applies?
I have no read answer to either of these questions here that satofies me.
peace, Sethie 09:21, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
Hi,
This is my first edit with a Wiki account.
I just deleted the last sentence from the Objectivist Philosophy subsection.
However, it is patently untrue that the world is "causal," because many events are at random. Radioactive decay and the weather are random processes. Psychologists cannot explain, let alone predict why a person who previously seemed rational, such as Lee Harvey Oswald, or Jack Ruby, suddenly becomes murderous and disrupts society.
The above statement is itself patently untrue. Radioactive decay and weather are the results of enormous systems of particles whose behavior is entirely deterministic. The macroscopic patterns may look random to our macroscopic eyes but the molecules and nuclei involved in these systems are all following ordered, deterministic steps.
I actually came upon this article to learn about Rand's Objectivist philosophy so I don't know a ton about it. The details on determinism are a little confusing and possibly contradictory but in any case the removed sentence was definately a POV and basically contradicted the tenant of Law of Causality immediately after defining it!
CriX 22:40, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
The article itself states "The Law of Identity states that anything that exists is qualitatively determinate, that is, has a fixed, finite nature." But that contradicts physics. For example, an electron whose spin is up has a finite probability of having its spin at right angles to up (say, left or right). The K1 meson oscillates into the K2 state and back - they are very different particles. In a more practical sense, I return to the impossibility of predicting human action. Carrionluggage 19:35, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
This section is horribly POV. I don't have time to fix it now, but someone else should. (How un-Objectivist is that?) -- zenohockey 02:37, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
Rand's exaggeration of self interest is an absurdity that I have just corrected. One does not face an either-or decision to live for oneself or for others. The Golden Rule and its generalisation, Immanuel Kant's Categorical Imperative take proper note of the situation that behaviour beneficial to others, even at some compromise of self-interest when necessary, leads to a stable and advancing civilisation. We are neither savages or Gods - come off it, Rand (and RJII) - it is not either-or. Carrionluggage 06:55, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
I took out the bit about Aristotle asserting that "A is A." Does anyone know if he ever refers to the law of identity explicitly, or was Aquinas (or someone else) the first? -- zenohockey 23:06, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
216.241.38.129 removed some text, claiming that it was a "rambling paragraph about partially agreeing with Objectivism. Same could be said of any field of study and so is meaningless." This turns out not to be the case. The purpose of the paragraph was to explain a very nonobvious phenomenon, which is that Rand's biggest critics tend to agree with her on some, but not all, of her stances. This phenomenon comes from Rand's (and the ARI's) view of Objectivism as a complete and closed system. Alienus 11:27, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Ok, I figured it out. There's a clear pattern: 216.241.38.129 is a partisan who removes text that isn't sufficiently pro-Rand. To be clear, it's not that that the removed text was POV, but that the article becomes POV once the text is removed. Alienus 11:32, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
There's been a consistent pattern of vandalism by 65.115.199.90, both on Objectivist Philosophy and Ayn Rand. The vandalism is the removal of the ARI Watch link, presumably because the vandal is a supporter of ARI. Whenever this comes up for a vote, the response is strongly towards keeping the link, but the vandal doesn't much care for consensus. I'm thinking it's time to consider blocking their access to these two pages, so as allow us to stop wasting time cleaning up their vandalism. I think the pattern is quite visible if you look at: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Special:Contributions&target=65.115.199.90&offset=0&limit=500 Alienus 20:08, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
“ARI watch” is Alienus’ campaign to spread libel and blatant lies about the Ayn Rand Insitute and Ayn Rand’s views. I have challenged him to back up his claims, but he refuses to do so. He lies about his association with his site, calls anyone who calls his bluff an “ARI sympathizer,” and tries to get them banned from Wikipedia. Well, I may be a sympathizer, but I have no relation to ARI, and I am not trolling my website all over the internet. -- 24.0.56.97 05:18, 5 January 2006 (UTC) (I would sign with my nick, but I don’t want to get banned too.)
I get the following error when trying to open the page: This Account Has Been Suspended Please contact the billing/support department as soon as possible. The link is invalid, and if someone other than me can verify it, they should remove it. (unsigned)
I've added wikilinks for foundationalism, coherentism, naive realism, and representationalism since they are all important philosophical vocabulary that should perhaps be properly understood to understand the article. If people see more of these, I'd suggest they do the same. jvs 00:44, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
== Sorry. I just went to this page after doing a raft of changes to the intro and "epistimology' sections, the latter of which was unreadable. Afterwards, I linked to this page, and now realize that I probably sidestepped some process. I'm sure you'll be able to track the changes I made. I'm not an expert on Objectivism, but I think the parts I altered are much clearer. I expect that someone else will clean up any inadvertent misrepresentations I might have made about the topic.
68.175.32.72
23:03, 6 January 2006 (UTC)Marc 6:02 1/6/06
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I'm primarily talking about the general article quality, its English, its layout, etc. The 'contradiction' that's almost inherent in a Wikipedia article about Objectivism is the fact that it's difficult to be impartial about an ideology that holds itself to be factually correct; for any particular instances of this, I'd have to go through it, which I will.
Can it really be right to have the philosophy of someone who denounced Libertarianism as part of the 'libertarian ring.'? I'm sure that a lot of people who like, or would want to learn about, R.R. would also want to read about The Soviet Union, but the two wouldn't be categorized as though they're the same thing. Most Libertarians, and many Objectivists, would claim that the two don't contradict; this can be put into the article. However, being impartial doesn't consist of intending that whatever 'many' people think is valid. D prime 16:58, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
I'd argue to the death against that association. However, it's not necessary, because Wikipedia's policy on controversy wouldn't have us try to debate until everyone associated with the article came to a consensus on what Ayn Rand should have labled her philosophy as. Its policy is being impartial.
Everyone knows and 'agrees' that Objectivism is Ayn Rand's philosophy, pure and simple. She named it, she developed it, etc. etc. It is what she calls it. She also disassociated it from libertarianism. Therefore, despite allegations (even if they were correct,) that it should be considered a libertarian philosophy, it isn't.
Objectivism doesn't hold words to be made up of their definition, but by what they refer to; definitions, according to the Objectivist epistemology, are a clarification of what the referent is. She did not agree that what 'libertarian' refered to was compatible with Objectivism, and seeing as 'Objectivism' is Ayn Rand's philosophy, you cannot classify it as a libertarian philosophy. D prime 00:03, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
On libertarian: Kindly observe that Rand herself created the conceptual framework adopted under the banner of "libertarian" on April 17, 1947. "...agree that no men or number of men have the right to *initiate* the use of force against any human being... that would achieve a perfect Utopia on earth, that would include all the moral code we need." (Letters... p. 364) translator
First of all, Rand didn't say that. She also wouldn't have.
The difference is that libertarianism is an ideology, while atheism is merely a term denoting the lack of having a theologic(al?) ideology; 'atheist' like, say, 'not communist' is merely a description of someone who doesn't believe in something, and is not an actual set of ideas. Libertarianism, however, is a set of ideas, and she did not believe that what the term 'libertarian' referred to (see her and Peikoff's writing on definitions v. referants in Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology) was consistent with Objectivism, because Libertarianism (according to Rand, who developed Objectivism) supports/implicates a dichotomy between politics and more basic philosophical ideas. She also believed that politics is a direct result of morality, and that the justifications given by 'libertarians' are wrong.
You may be thinking something along the lines of 'Okay, capitalism isn't merely a negative, and Rand supports it, even though not all who support capitalism agree with Rand.' The difference is that (according to Rand and myself) capitalism is not a movement, and refers to something more concrete, i.e. a dichotomy between state and economics, while libertarianism is. (Really, if libertarianism weren't a movement or prinicple, but merely the alleged political implications of their ideology, then it and 'lassiez-faire capitalism' would be interchangable.) Obviously Rand disagress with most interpritations of the word 'libertarian,' and seeing as Objectivism is 'the philosophy of Ayn Rand,' every part of the article called 'Objectivism' must be described as what she believed, not as what most on Wikipedia think is compatible with the rest of her ideas.
If they don't have anti-nazi POV on the Hitler article, I think we can avoid having a biased POV on this because most people believe the rest of her ideas are compatible with it, even though the formulator didn't. D prime 02:36, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Post-note: if those are the words of Ayn Rand herself, they are being taken out of context and/or are being translated from Russian badly (probably the first.) She did not believe morality was primarily, let alone exclusively, a social construct. She would never have said that 'not initiating force' is all one needs for morality. Also, she hadn't written anything political before the publication of Atlas Shrugged, which was in the 1950s. I believe that her own explicit statements against libertarianism hold more yield than the similiarities between what she said in a letter and what most libertarians consider to be the essence of their philosophy.
Lastly, you should consider the Rand quotes referenced here: http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=education_campus_libertarians D prime 02:43, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
As I explained, the Libertarianism side-bar on other pages already has a link to Objectivism. Ayn Rand did speak against libertarianism, but her views were themselves libertarian. As the article points out, her complaint was mostly on the basis of libertarians not accepting all of Objectivism. What's funny is that you vandalized that side-bar, which I've since fixed. I'm going to fix your changes here, too, since you have no factual basis. By the way, removing text without explanation is a type of vandalism, so you should avoid making that mistake again. Alienus 23:24, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
The section on principles is not currently written in NPOV. Each principle is critiqued in the section purporting to describe it. This leaves the article with no section objectively describing the principles. This section should be rewritten with critical arguments against the principles relocated to the section on criticism.
Any one else find it ironic that there's a lack of 'objectivity in the article about objectivism? Olleicua 23:09, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
Whether or not contemporary philosophers respect it, it's still a 'philosophy,' by definition. 70.29.230.230 21:16, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Amerindianarts. It is not 'crackpotism' (whatever that is) to make it clear that Objectivism is not taken seriously as a philosophical school in mainstream philosophy departments. You may as well argue that the lack of support for astrology in mainstream scientific study is irrelevent to the question of whether astrology should be considered a real science. Huple scat 01:24, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Crackpotism is pontification from a position of total ignorance. Did either Amerindianarts or Alienus look at the discussion at talk:list of philosophers before posting these responses? Michael Hardy 03:46, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Alienus, you are, and continue to be, the one whose comments are not grounded in the facts. You say that "her supporters have made a point of getting her name into journals". That is largely false. That's why it has taken so many decades. Rand was urged by John Hospers to publish in scholarly journals but was not convinced. For a long time, most of her followers who wrote, did so mainly elsewhere than in scholarly journals. Only in the the last 15 years or so has it begun to be commonplace to find professors who support her philosophy. Many professors who have cited her in scholarly journals have done so in order to disagree with her. Prof. Robert Nozick at Harvard was not one of her supporters, so his statement that she was worthy of attention was not a case of "her supporter mak[ing] a point of getting her name into journals". When a professor of theology at a Catholic university did the same thing, ditto. You want facts? Look at talk:list of philosophers. I ask you again: have you in fact read that? Michael Hardy 21:53, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
The summary of the basic concepts was removed because, according to philwelch, he already wrote a 'better' summary like this and it was taken off. I don't know why it was removed, and perhaps he should have put his old one back as a replacement. My summary was added because the previous intro, all of which still existed under the summary, was basically unreadable to someone who didn't already know every thing about Objectivism and study it as a pass time like ourselves. Unless I get a reasonable argument, or, philwelch brings back his old basic summary that was taken back, I'm putting my extremely simplified one back at the top. (I stole most of it from the 'Ayn Rand' page and was told that there's nothing wrong with having it on two pages.) D prime 22:18, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
How about we use quotes as a more complicated summary, and, in paragraph form, proceed it with a simpler one? D prime 02:57, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
They wont be formatted to look very seperate, but we need a more simplistic statement of Objectivism overall so that people who aren't philsophy nerds understand it. 207.35.188.13 18:34, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
It was slightly hard to understand if you weren't already aware of Objectivism or philosophy in general. Some one added a paragraph to the top to clarify. Thanks! D prime 01:22, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
Wow, this is an in-depth page. I know nothing about objectivism, and I'm afraid I'm non the wiser after looking at this page. Perhaps those of you who know a lot about the subject could try to make a very simple definition so uninformed people have a vague idea of what objectivism basically is? And it seems to me that people without specialist knowledge would find browsing this page very difficult.
I fancy my self a Randroid and would like to drastically change the intro, as to make it more comprehensible for some one who doesn't study Objectivism as a hobby. I find that the basic concept is better put in the Ayn Rand article, but I don't want to repeat the same couples of paragraphs in different articles; in fact, I don't want to reword them either. How would one feel if I took the short summary on Rand's ideas out of the Ayn Rand article, put it in the intro to this one, and replaced the space in the Rand article with a normal English summary, opposed to laid-out point-form like the one I'd be moving here. I should probably do it with as little deletion as possible. Does any one, especially people who have worked on the intro in the past, have any input? I don't want to go arbitrarily changing the beginning of a large article too bluntly. D prime 04:54, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I will do so later tonight. Sorry for the delay. D prime 22:14, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I finally changed the intro to include a basic summary of Objectivism. Does any one have any suggestions as far as how/if I should include basic summarys at the beggining of each subject? D prime 15:00, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The entire article is confused. Most sections are filled with what appears to be Objectivist jargon, which has not been defined or identified anywhere in the article. This is not ok. This is not a meeting place for objectivist experts, nor an area for debate and answering of objections, but an article in a reference work.
It may be that Objectivism is in fact as confused and poorly stated as this article is. However, I choose to suspend my believe that a philosophy of this quality could possibly attract as many followers as Objectivism seems to have attracted. I propose that the article be restarted from scratch, and the length and quality of edits be carefully monitored to prevent the abomination that is there currently from coming back. No one with even the slightest education in philosophy could seriously propose what is found in this article.-- Ltbarcly 23:52, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I think that the criticisms section should be rewritten as a summary of all significant, published criticisms of Objectivism as a philosophy. Criticisms of Objectivism as a movement would go to the much-needed Objectivist movement article while personal criticisms of Ayn Rand would go to the Ayn Rand article. The main exposition here needs some significant improvement too--it's been very much messed with.
The Criticisms section should not catalogue every conceivable difference between Objectivism and every other philosophy, religion, worldview, or personal opinion in existence. It should not be a dumping ground for "Wikipedians' critiques of Objectivism". The criticisms section is a train wreck as it is. Similarly, will you people stop making unilateral decisions as to whether or not it's even in the article?
I'll work on an edit of the criticisms section. Y'all argue and vote here about whether or not we have it in the main article. I no longer care, but I'll help enforce whatever we agree on.
Philwelch 09:40, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I've reformed the Criticisms section into a Response section (as some parts of it weren't and aren't actually criticisms) and deleted stuff that clearly wasn't attributable to any given critique of Objectivism. The rest might have to be changed and moved back to the Bibliography. Philwelch 20:30, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I don't understand what a section on "Criticism of Rand's reading of the history of philosophy" is doing in an article about Objectivism. Isn't that something like having a section criticizing Einstein's political views in an article on his Theory of Relativity? I suggest that it be moved to the Ayn Rand page. Serge 19:00, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC) all of you hear this, the actual quality of this article is irrelevant. this may seem like an opprobious statement to make, but i am far more apalled by the articles ridiculous attempt at balance. this is an article projecting objectivist philosophy to intelligent laymen- there is no place for pedantry like "response to objectivism". All this belongs in Rand's biography, which would have to include the criticisms because of the fact that a biography is a journalistic report of all the events in a person's life please pursue an end based approach to any further editing and don't nitpick over silly non essentials like the language. for this, all of you self appointed philosopher historians have to define your end. as an example, see the article on existentialism- the part dealing with responses and critiques is tiny
Philwelch, can I ask why you removed St Augustine from the primary of consciousness discussion (I didn't put him in, but still wonder why you removed him; why you removed "and the role of" from Epistemology:reason (which makes it look as though they are the same thing); and why you removed "what she called" from "what she called objective reality", because as you know this phrase is fraught with difficulty, and to leave it there without a quote and without a definition makes either Rand or the authors of this article look stupid. If it's what Rand called it, then "what she called" is accurate. You also removed my insertion that Kantian scholars would dispute Rand's view of Kant; and instead just removed his name entirely, even though Rand listed him as an idealist. I'd appreciate if you'd explain your problems with my edit. Slim 21:18, Dec 16, 2004 (UTC)
Thanks for your explanation, Phil. Slim 02:04, Dec 17, 2004 (UTC)
Objectivism is not "metaphysics, epistemology and morality combined". Objectivist Morality is implied from Objectivist Metaphysics and Epistemology. Had reality been different, Morality would have changed accordingly. Avi.aharon 17:40, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Lot's of talk, little action. I propose we make a modest start by fixing the intro. Currently:
Objectivism is the name chosen by Ayn Rand for her philosophy. She characterizes it as a philosophy "for living on earth": grounded in reality, and aimed at facilitating knowledge of the natural world and harmonious, mutually beneficial interactions between human beings.
Broadly speaking, Objectivism combines a realist, empiricist, secular, naturalistic orientation in metaphysics and epistemology with an egoistic ethics of human flourishing and a social philosophy of capitalism and individual liberty.
One major theme of Objectivist philosophy is a focus on the potential of the individual human being...
Honestly, have we really said anything at all at this point? Not really! Maybe nihilism doesn't focus on the potential of the human being, but most other philosophies do. Most philosophies are for "living on earth", eg the late Bernard Williams who seriously wondered "What does it mean to live well?". I'm not saying we can't mention these points, i'm just saying that they don't help us newcomers much, who are wondering, "What the hell is objectivism? I remembering hearing about subjectivism..how come i've never heard of this?". I think it might help to start a bit with subjectivism, something peopl are are familiar with, and then contrast it with objectivism. WARNING: I DONT KNOW WHAT THE HELL I'M TALKING ABOUT!
Proposed start (edit the crap out of this!)
Objectivist philosophy, often simply called "Objectivism", was introduced by the novelist and philosopher
Ayn Rand in the middle of the
20th century. The
antithesis to
subjectivism, in which a person's conception of reality can be influenced by their thoughts and feelings, Rand's philosophy states that reality is that which we see in the world around us, and exists just as it is regardless of individual perceptions and judgements. This nature-centric way of thinking about the universe, alongside a focus on man's ability to
reason, led Rand to what she considered to be an ideal way of "living on earth". <to be continued>
-- Alterego 07:07, Feb 2, 2005 (UTC)
Fine, I wrote a second paragraph in the opening. Are you happy now? Philwelch 19:07, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)
As, er...demanded by popular demand, I've started some major work on the article, rewriting the intro (I bailed out and let old Ayn do the part of actually summarizing Objectivism) and split Objectivist movement into a separate article. Anything else anyone wants done? Philwelch 08:20, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Seeing as Wikipedia is a general encyclopedia and not an encyclopedia of philosophy, we should avoid writing in "philosophy-geek" in favor of plain English wherever possible, especially in say, the opening, where the basic subject matter should be comprehensible to those outside the field. If we must slip into philosophic jargon later in the article we can do that, but the main (and, frankly, most spot-on) criticism of this article is that it's incomprehensible to the roughly 99% of the internet-viewing population that does not consist of philosophy geeks. I'm a philosophy geek myself, as is, I suppose, everyone who bothers to edit philosophy articles. But philosophical jargon is only understood by philosophy geeks, with the effective result of holding back information from the unwashed. Unfortunately, this runs exactly counter to the purpose of Wikipedia. Philwelch 00:27, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The intro is looking a lot better now. A couple things; I don't think starting the second paragraph of a long entry with "in summary" works. Also, describing objectivism as "existence exists" is going to get a newbie confused with Existentialism. "Existentialism is a philosophical movement emphasizing individualism, individual freedom, and subjectivity." On those lines, we are pretty much OK up until that subjectivity part :) "Objectivism emphasizes actuality?" or how about "Objectivism emphasizes reality?"-- Alterego 04:27, Feb 5, 2005 (UTC)
(libertarian sidebar issue moved to end)
The following deleted section has little to do with Objectivism and much to do with Ayn Rand's own understanding of other philosophers. I have removed it and placed it here in case someone wants to transplant the content into Ayn Rand. Philwelch 20:20, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
In Ayn Rand's work, the criticism of other philosophers, especially Kant, is an integral part of her own philosophizing -- it sets the problems that she believed she has solved. She believed, in short, that the problems of the modern world are philosophic problems, i.e. the uncritical acceptance of Kantianism (as she understood it) and that the world can be vastly improved (turned into one big Galt's Gulch) by the acceptance of her own philosophy. So criticism of her scholarship is not a separate issue from criticism of her philosophy, and this should be acknowledged to properly round out this article. -- Christofurio 13:39, Mar 3, 2005 (UTC)
Can someone add a set of links to "scholarly criticism" at the end of the article? I'm too new to know how to do it, but I think it would be valuable.
Especially in the title essay of her early work, For the New Intellectual, Rand levels serious accusations against canonical historical philosophers, especially David Hume, Immanuel Kant, G. W. F. Hegel, Karl Marx, Friedrich Nietzsche, and Herbert Spencer. In her later book, Philosophy: Who Needs It?, she repeats and enlarges upon her criticisms of Kant, and she also accuses famed Harvard political theorist John Rawls of gross philosophical errors. Some have accused Rand of misinterpreting the works of these (and other) philosophers. And some have faulted Rand for failing to provide documentation to support her interpretation of these philosophers' views.
In particular, Rand is criticized for her reading of Immanuel Kant, whose philosophy she frequently denigrates as the opposite of Objectivism. Some critics take issue with Rand's interpretation of Kant's metaphysics: like early critics of Kant, Rand interprets Kant as an absolute idealist. It is a long-standing question of Kant scholarship whether this interpretation is correct; in the second edition of the Critique of Pure Reason, Kant claimed that his transcendental idealism was different from absolute idealism. Contemporary philosophers such as Jonathan Bennett, James van Cleve, and Rae Langton continue to debate this issue.
Other critics focus on Rand's reading of Kant's ethical philosophy. Rand alleges that Kantian ethics is a version of altruism, an ethics of self-sacrifice. Kant's defenders claim that Kantian ethics is primarily an ethics of reason, because the categorical imperative amounts to a demand that the intent behind one's actions be logically consistent, or in Kantian terminology, that "the maxim of one's act be universalizable." In Rand's favor, Kant clearly does maintain (in his Groundwork for the Metaphyiscs of Morals) that an action motivated by inclination or self-interest is entirely lacking in moral worth. Still, fewer commentators have agreed with Rand's characterization of Kantianism as self-sacrificial. The contemporary philosopher Thomas E. Hill has explicitly defended Kant against this charge in his article, "Happiness and Human Flourishing in Kant's Ethics," in the anthology Human Flourishing.
Why is there a bar on the side linking Objectivism with Libertarianism, one is a philosophy and one is a political position (with a variety of philosophical backgrounds) Crazynas 04:36, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I thought about it, and decided to remove the sidebar. While Objectivism is important to libertarians, libertarianism is relatively unimportant to objectivists. Dave 05:14, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)
Objectivism could be considered alike to Libertarianism, but it is in no way factually affiliated with it. http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=education_campus_libertarians I see absolutely no controversy as to whether the 'Philosophy of Ayn Rand' as it is put in the beggining of the article is affiliated with libertarianism. She said that she has more respects for Marxists, which means that you could more accurately put this page in the 'communist series'.
Can someone add a set of links to "scholarly criticism" at the end? I'm too new to know how to do it, but I think it would be valuable.
In my opinion, few readers will want to see the line-by-line details of working out objectivist epistemology unless they're willing to click on objectivist epistemology, rather than just "objectivism." Most non-objectivists are interested in the ethics and politics part. I spun off metaphysics and epistemology for this reason. I hope both can be expanded again on this page, but in more of an overview rather than a list of random tenets of objectivism listed one-by-one. Dave 06:04, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)
A good article, as much as any brief article can capture an individual's world view or describe a philosophy.
The one thing that could make it more understandable to the average reader would be more examples. Rand gave concrete descriptions of what a society operating under the tenents of objectivism would look like. In that sense, it's a philosophy with political and social implications. There's some mention of that -- government should only have limited police and military power, for example.
Was Rand calling for political action? Did she prescribe specific behavior? Did her philosophy support freedom of religious practice? Does objectivism have a position on any of the important questions in today's world, such as the dealth penalty, public education, marriage, abortion, taxes?
I don't have the knowledge or understanding to contribute directly, and I know it's a tall order, but there are smart people here. -- DavidH July 3, 2005 20:41 (UTC)
It said "... her intellectual heir (Leonard Peikoff)." I changed it to just "... Leonard Peikoff".
Peikoff is Rand's heir, i.e. he inherited her copyrights, manuscripts, etc. He may be among her "intellectual heirs", if that term is understood to mean those who follow her ideas. But, contrary to urban legend, she did not call him her "intellectual heir" nor appoint him a sort of successor as leader of the movement, who was to be the only person bearing that title. Before she split up with Nathaniel Branden, she called him her "intellectual heir". Are we to suppose she made the same mistake a second time, after getting burned that way? When I saw him speak at the Ford Hall Forum, the MC said "he has been called [her] intellectual heir", but didn't say who called him that. It seems he was carefully avoiding attributing the statement to Rand. Michael Hardy 6 July 2005 01:29 (UTC)
Hi, I removed this line:
[By "dogma" in this context, libertarian critics mean "integrity", i.e., uncompromising allegiance to the Truth.]
For a few reasons:
Sorry if that's stepping on anyones toes, but I don't think that wikipedia should be claiming any philosophy is Truth with a capital T, especially this one, and least of all in a section about those who disagree with it. I'm surprised that was even in there for so long. -- Anonymous
It's a good edit. I'm an Objectivist myself; frankly, whoever put this in either has no idea about Objectivism, no idea about the rules of Wikipedia. If we abandon the need to assume good faith for a moment, whoever added that could be an agent provacateur or troll, trying to make Objectivists look like dogmatists; I've never seen an Objectivist write "truth" with a capital letter. LaszloWalrus 10:59, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
I just removed the following section that was recently added under the "Responses to Objectivism" header. It appears to be one writer's personal commentary on Objectivism rather than the repetition of a common critism. No prior sources were given, and what appears to be the author's personal email address was included at the end of the comment.
<begin cut text>
[Objectivism essentially rejects ideas of mysticism due to it's irrationallity. However, it's weakness may lie in it's inability to reflect the needs of the subconscious which is inherently more complex and irrational. Instead the focus of objectivism is on the ego and conscious structures and as such operates in opposition to such wider structures (the truth is grey and varied). Hence, as an ideology it is dangerous in that logical justifications can be made and held as truisms for actions that are immoral in a wider/foreign context (viz. US foreign policy).] - markville@gmail.com <end cut text>
-- RL0919 06:19, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
Just passing by. I found this passage kind of strange: "Critics, however, point to the fact that creativity is only possible within a reasonable secure financial framework...many of the greatest artists lived in poverty... ." So, the critics are saying that you need substantial money to be creative, and many creative people didn't? Doesn't that defeat the argument? Maybe some rephrasing is in order. If someone who understands the criticism doesn't rephrase it, I'll figure out a better way. 24.162.140.213 22:08, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
This criticsm was lame, so I removed it. (Dean Michael Gores 15 Aug 2005) Why: 1. It seems like it tries to apply the idea "The rich get richer and the poor get poorer"... which is simply rediculous in pure capitalism. (Why would the poor get poorer? Doesn't their standard of living actually increase when the rich get richer? How does that make poor people poorer?) 2. If artists etc need funding, then capitalism would be the best place for them, because capitalism provides the potentially highest standard of living... and more people would have more resources to spend on art.
Note that a few places that I am unhappy with phrasing are marked with asterisks, and specific comments on that phrasing follows the rewrite. Links and formatting is omitted here it didn't cause an itch so I didn't scratch it.
--
Objectivism is the philosophy of Russian-born American philosopher and author Ayn Rand, first set out as the principles behind characters in her fiction works and later described in non-fiction books and essays. Objectivism is a *comprehensive philosophy; that is, it *describes a Metaphysics, Epistemology, Ethics, Politics, and Esthetics. As formulated by Rand, each successive branch of the philosophy follows logically from the previous branches and rational observation. Rand contrasted her philosophy with academic philosophies, contending that Objectivism is a philosophy necessary for and *understandable by every man.
Objectivism holds that reality exists independent of consciousness, whether human or supernatural; reason is the only method of gathering knowledge and only the individual rational mind can process these data; the proper moral purpose of one's life is to pursue one's own rational self-interest; and finally laissez-faire capitalism with a _minarchist government is the only moral social system. Ayn Rand *also set out a system of Esthetics, *favoring Romanticism.
Objectivism derives its name from the conception of knowledge and values as objective. Rand rejected intrinsic values (such as "natural parks have a value within themselves independent of anyone's use of those parks") and intrinsic concepts (that is, she denied that the notion of catness somehow exists within a cat itself) as well as subjectivism (by which Rand means "created by [one's] feelings, desires, 'intuitions,' or whims"). Rather, properly formed concepts and values are objective in the sense that they meet the specific cognitive and/or biocentric needs of the individual. Valid concepts and values are, as she wrote, "determined by the nature of reality, but to be discovered by man's mind." "Objectivism" was actually a secondary choice for the name of her philosophy; her first choice, "Existentialism," had already been appropriated by Jean-Paul Sartre.
Many use Rand's own brief summary given while standing on one foot as the official simplified description. [2]
--
Notes:
One final note: it's a couple hours after my bedtime but I'm posting this anyway, since this is 'just' the talk page. Comments welcome, of course, which is why it's here. Heresiarch 07:32, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
The article states: "...because it is the only system where humans are barred from initiating the use of physical force upon each other." But it does not explain how, other than by physical force, this bar is to be enforced. People or organizations that use or attempt to use "physical force" (this includes governments, gangs, police forces, court officials such as bailiffs, private police, armies, mercenaries, and so on) do not respond well to exhortations not to use force. Seemingly, the only way to enforce (sic) Ms. Rand's injunction not to use force is by the use of force, so she is Begging the question.
Good point - I missed that word. I was going to agree, at first. But on further thought, I still think the concept is meritorious in principle but unrealistic. For example, in many revolts, such as Algeria (against the French), Hungary (1956), and so on, the authorities would claim that "terrorists" were initiating the violence. You tell me who is initiating the violence between the militant Palestinians and Israel. Similarly, the police often beat up someone and charge him with resisting arrest. You try to figure out in which cases the police are right, and justified, and in what cases they went too far. In the last analysis, the party able to apply the most force usually wins. There is no arbiter equipped to decide who "initiated" the use of force. Carrionluggage 19:39, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
Should this article mention that fact that many opponents and neutral parties to Ayn Rand's beliefs and ideals refer to them simply as 'Randism' due to the inherent bias of the term 'objectivism' (which assumes that Rand's beliefs and ideals are the correct ones), or should that fact be forbidden from inclusion, as Dominick prefers? Due to this dispute, the NPOV tag has been added. Do not remove it. 19:19, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
Of course the terms 'objectivism' and 'rationalism' are inherently biased, and the approximately 1000 google hits from various sources definitively proves that the term 'Randism' is not a neologism. As hard as you argue, you can not turn a term with 1000 google hits into a neologism, because A = A. -Ironic that a supposed 'objectivist' does not recognize that. As for my personal experience, I personally have used the word 'Randism' to describe Ayn Rand's beliefs without having heard that term before, due to the subjectivity of Rand's own self-descriptive terms, and I have known an other person who has done the same. I am therefore surprised by the 1000-fold difference in google hits. See that's the difference between Randists and anti-Randists. The former chirp the terms 'objectivism' and 'rationalism' at the top of their lungs like starlings, so as to popularize them, to make their publicity compensate for their inaccuracy, whereas the anti-Randists feel no such need to chirp loudly, but instead use the terms more casually. Anyway, I strongly support objectivism aka rationalism, which is why I am strongly opposed to the subjective and irrational beliefs and ideals of Ayn Rand. 23:16, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
A google search for the similar term 'Randian' yielded 80,000 hits as compared to 680,000 for 'objectivist'. That's 1 to 8.5, so 'Randian' is a major alternative term to the deceptive term 'objectivist'. In the google hits, I have also seen the term 'objectivism' used in single quotes, to denote it's deceptiveness. Dominick's illogical comparison of a term of obvious meaning and a random term, his lie (which can be disproven via google) that the term 'Randism/Randist' was created and popularized by just one person, his discrediting of objective facts as mere insults, his libelous discrediting of the opposition so as to attempt to invalidate it, his projection of his own bad manners onto the opposition, and his removal of the NPOV tag to suppress the opposition rather than face it, further demonstrates the weakness of his position. That's it then, the ultimate clincher, yet Dominick still has not restored the deleted criticism, or even the NPOV tag. Oh by the way, Dominick- I don't think that anyone here is trying to change YOUR mind, or the mind of any Randists. I don't know about 66.90, TodFox, or 24.101, but as a mostly-genetic determinist, I already consider all of you to be a lost cause. I only desire to inform and enlighten unbiased third parties. 18:41, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
...Being as multiple people believe that the objective alternative terms should be mentioned in the criticism, I will restore the mention of said criticism. Dominick- I ask that you follow wikipedia's strict NPOV policy and do not make POV vandalist deletions of that criticism. I wouldn't be surprised if Dominick did though, as he has already played unfairly by the various methods that I mentioned. 19:56, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
Looks like you've gone off the deep end. I don't know Dominick, but he made a reasonable point about the term Randism which is used by almost nobody. The terms Randianism and Randian are very widely used, but they weren't the ones that Dominick was addressing! And Randian has a different shade of meaning than objectivist. Especially since the Peikoff/Kelley split ... Randian refers to one side of that split, "neo-objectivist" to the other, and they both claim the label "objectivist." -- Christofurio 23:24, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
(SNIP personal attack, read the policy
WP:RPA. If you really need to see it look at history, left the comments that were not directed at me.
Dominick
(????)
20:26, 26 October 2005 (UTC))
"I'll let any third parties judge whether my minor addition to my argument was adequete grounds for, or had anything at all to do with, Dominick suppressing my criticism (which he did before I even made the RFC) and suppressing the NPOV tag. As for RFC protocol, I followed it in most respects, and Dominick has not even attempted to state any specific manner in which I violated said protocol." "Anyway, everything that I have said about Dominic is intended to inform and enlighten people about his character and motives so that people understand him." -This is part of the material that Dominick deleted
I'll also say that the statement "I don't have a dog in the fight between the objectivist groups." (I assume that this is supposed to mean that Dominick has no position on the issue of whether or not he supports Randism) strongly and clearly contradicts the statement "Calling this by any name other than Objectivism is not factual.". The former quote might also refer to the libelous personal attack that he made earlier of 66.90 so as to attempt to invalidate his/her comments.
"Without discussion of any other sort you put the PoV tag up, and after discussion it came down." -Dominick stated that he would remove the NPOV tag if there were no comments within 24 hours. There were comments, and he broke his word and took down the tag anyway. View the history to confirm this. 20:14, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
Via RFC: I was going to make a comment that yes it should mention that, then I looked at the actual article and honestly, I laughed. I'm sorry, but suggesting that Ayn Rand "developed objectivism" is ridiculous. Objectivism can't "developed", it is a philosophical perspective. You might say she "examined objectivism." And then there is all the stuff about capitalism? Wow. Obviously a bunch of Ayn Rand's followers have taken over the article. You don't see subjectivism saying... wait.. it says... what the hell? The subjectivism article redirects to whatnow...? Sheesh. Oh wait, there's a tiny subjectivism section and bahahahaahha it says " given his reliance on God as the prime mover of human perception." Good luck, these articles really don't make any sense to me. Craziness.-- Ben 12:17, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
Why would the article use Randism throughout the article when she called her philosophy objectivism?
Why would the article not mention in the criticisms or controversies section that some people don't like the term objectivism because of what it applies?
I have no read answer to either of these questions here that satofies me.
peace, Sethie 09:21, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
Hi,
This is my first edit with a Wiki account.
I just deleted the last sentence from the Objectivist Philosophy subsection.
However, it is patently untrue that the world is "causal," because many events are at random. Radioactive decay and the weather are random processes. Psychologists cannot explain, let alone predict why a person who previously seemed rational, such as Lee Harvey Oswald, or Jack Ruby, suddenly becomes murderous and disrupts society.
The above statement is itself patently untrue. Radioactive decay and weather are the results of enormous systems of particles whose behavior is entirely deterministic. The macroscopic patterns may look random to our macroscopic eyes but the molecules and nuclei involved in these systems are all following ordered, deterministic steps.
I actually came upon this article to learn about Rand's Objectivist philosophy so I don't know a ton about it. The details on determinism are a little confusing and possibly contradictory but in any case the removed sentence was definately a POV and basically contradicted the tenant of Law of Causality immediately after defining it!
CriX 22:40, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
The article itself states "The Law of Identity states that anything that exists is qualitatively determinate, that is, has a fixed, finite nature." But that contradicts physics. For example, an electron whose spin is up has a finite probability of having its spin at right angles to up (say, left or right). The K1 meson oscillates into the K2 state and back - they are very different particles. In a more practical sense, I return to the impossibility of predicting human action. Carrionluggage 19:35, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
This section is horribly POV. I don't have time to fix it now, but someone else should. (How un-Objectivist is that?) -- zenohockey 02:37, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
Rand's exaggeration of self interest is an absurdity that I have just corrected. One does not face an either-or decision to live for oneself or for others. The Golden Rule and its generalisation, Immanuel Kant's Categorical Imperative take proper note of the situation that behaviour beneficial to others, even at some compromise of self-interest when necessary, leads to a stable and advancing civilisation. We are neither savages or Gods - come off it, Rand (and RJII) - it is not either-or. Carrionluggage 06:55, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
I took out the bit about Aristotle asserting that "A is A." Does anyone know if he ever refers to the law of identity explicitly, or was Aquinas (or someone else) the first? -- zenohockey 23:06, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
216.241.38.129 removed some text, claiming that it was a "rambling paragraph about partially agreeing with Objectivism. Same could be said of any field of study and so is meaningless." This turns out not to be the case. The purpose of the paragraph was to explain a very nonobvious phenomenon, which is that Rand's biggest critics tend to agree with her on some, but not all, of her stances. This phenomenon comes from Rand's (and the ARI's) view of Objectivism as a complete and closed system. Alienus 11:27, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Ok, I figured it out. There's a clear pattern: 216.241.38.129 is a partisan who removes text that isn't sufficiently pro-Rand. To be clear, it's not that that the removed text was POV, but that the article becomes POV once the text is removed. Alienus 11:32, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
There's been a consistent pattern of vandalism by 65.115.199.90, both on Objectivist Philosophy and Ayn Rand. The vandalism is the removal of the ARI Watch link, presumably because the vandal is a supporter of ARI. Whenever this comes up for a vote, the response is strongly towards keeping the link, but the vandal doesn't much care for consensus. I'm thinking it's time to consider blocking their access to these two pages, so as allow us to stop wasting time cleaning up their vandalism. I think the pattern is quite visible if you look at: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Special:Contributions&target=65.115.199.90&offset=0&limit=500 Alienus 20:08, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
“ARI watch” is Alienus’ campaign to spread libel and blatant lies about the Ayn Rand Insitute and Ayn Rand’s views. I have challenged him to back up his claims, but he refuses to do so. He lies about his association with his site, calls anyone who calls his bluff an “ARI sympathizer,” and tries to get them banned from Wikipedia. Well, I may be a sympathizer, but I have no relation to ARI, and I am not trolling my website all over the internet. -- 24.0.56.97 05:18, 5 January 2006 (UTC) (I would sign with my nick, but I don’t want to get banned too.)
I get the following error when trying to open the page: This Account Has Been Suspended Please contact the billing/support department as soon as possible. The link is invalid, and if someone other than me can verify it, they should remove it. (unsigned)
I've added wikilinks for foundationalism, coherentism, naive realism, and representationalism since they are all important philosophical vocabulary that should perhaps be properly understood to understand the article. If people see more of these, I'd suggest they do the same. jvs 00:44, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
== Sorry. I just went to this page after doing a raft of changes to the intro and "epistimology' sections, the latter of which was unreadable. Afterwards, I linked to this page, and now realize that I probably sidestepped some process. I'm sure you'll be able to track the changes I made. I'm not an expert on Objectivism, but I think the parts I altered are much clearer. I expect that someone else will clean up any inadvertent misrepresentations I might have made about the topic.
68.175.32.72
23:03, 6 January 2006 (UTC)Marc 6:02 1/6/06