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Aren't Rand's Objectivism and Neoconservatism rather closely related? It isn't mentioned anywhere in the article. — AldeBaer 00:12, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
Since the content is already in the article on the Objectivist movement, and there was no response for two days to the proposal (immediately above) to delete it from this article, it is time to do it. AdamReed 01:22, 15 June 2007 (UTC).
Buridan: Whether or not Objectivism is a philosophy, at least in the traditional sense of the word, is a valid question, and I know of reputable scholars who have argued the contrary. But tracts directed against the Objectivist movement are not source of relevant evidence on this issue. I was even thinking of adding such a section myself once the rest of the article is cut down to a reasonable size. Instead of posting stuff about the Objectivist movement to the article on the philosophical system, why don't you start on a (verifiable, NPOV) section, with real scholarly refs, on the "Is Objectivism a philosophy" question? AdamReed 04:45, 15 June 2007 (UTC).
Buridan: I've checked your "sources," and I have not been able to verify your claim that any of the 3 authors you cite actually consider Objectivism a "pseudophilosophy tied to a cult." Sherman makes clear the opposite: that he considers Objectivism a sound philosophy, the best one around. He criticises cultism on Objectivist grounds. The most that I found in the other two is that they sometimes say, for short, "Objectivism," when it is clear from context that they are writing about the Objectivist movement. There are serious scholars who question whether or not Rand's system is a philosophy, but those three do not appear, from the sources cited, to be among them; and in any case their focus, and context, is the movement and not the philosophy. The most that has been verifiably sourced is that some readers will be confused by their use of the word "Objectivism" as a shorthand for the Objectivist movement. In the absence of a verifiable cite from a primary or scholarly source I intend to edit accordingly. AdamReed 16:53, 15 June 2007 (UTC).
If I were to delete any mention of cult accusations from the Scientology page by claiming that all of these criticisms were directed only at the movement and church, not at the underlying philosophy and religion, would you be impressed by that line of argument? If you want to constructively improve this section, you have my full support. Removing it entirely would just be POV. ThAtSo 19:47, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
That is a reasonable suggestion, although this article already contains a subsection on Critiques, and the critique that Objectivism contributes to cultism in the Objectivist movement should be a paragraph or subsection in that subsection, not separate. Also a paragraph on the other (unrelated) critique that Objectivism is not a philosophy. ThAtSo: are you willing to bury the hatchet and list, here in Talk, what you think needs to be included? Rather than try to edit the subsection at the end, let's put together something concise (yes this article is already too long) under Critiques, and delete the section at the end when it is agreed on and in place. AdamReed 20:47, 15 June 2007 (UTC).
I don't think that the proposed paragraphs will be encyclopedic enough without actually listing and ref'ing the criticism. I'm ready to work on a ref'd text with substantive discussion, but I have a life too, and getting the refs together will take time. Structurally, each paragraph should start with a synopsis of each category of critique, then name names, then discuss. AdamReed 22:34, 15 June 2007 (UTC).
Where she says Objectivism is... what? ThAtSo 13:00, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
i'm fine with the current version.-- Buridan 08:47, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
I've looked through claims that Objectivism is not a philosophy, and all but one pre-date Peikoff's OPAR, and say that it is not a philosophical system because it was never published as a philosophical system. There have been no such criticisms since the publication of OPAR, so I am inclined to leave them out, because they are obsolete. The one exception is Merrill's claim that Objectivism is not a philosophy but rather the starting point of a set of new natural (albeit theoretical) sciences concerned with questions that previously were the exclusive concern of philosophy. I'll need to cite my own work, but it is from a refereed journal (JARS) and definitely not original research for the Wikipedia. Comments? AdamReed 02:02, 17 June 2007 (UTC).
The claim that Objectivism "was never published as a philosophical system" is easily refuted by the most cursory review of the facts, and therefore not worthy of inclusion in an encyclopedia.
"Ayn Rand named her philosophy 'Objectivism.'" - Ayn Rand Institute, http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=objectivism_index
"Until or unless I write a comprehensive treatise on my philosophy, Dr. Peikoff's course is the only authorized presentation of the entire theoretical structure of Objectivism, i.e., the only one that I know of my own knowledge to be fully accurate." - Ayn Rand, quoted at http://www.peikoff.com/opar/
"Branden: You can define Objectivism as simply "the philosophy formulated by Ayn Rand." Or you can define it as "a philosophy formulated by Ayn Rand that teaches that...etc., etc., etc." What difference does it make? Isn't this pedantry? The truth is, Objectivism is both, depending on context — a proper noun and a concept.
In the real world "Objectivism" stands for a set of ideas formulated by Rand. Once those ideas are published, they acquire a life of their own. They can be accepted by different people to varying degrees. They are intellectual tools, really. Ways to understand the world. It's unrealistic to think one can freeze that philosophy into a static set of concepts and insist that no further implication, derived from the same base, is "Objectivism." We may not call our new thoughts "Objectivism," if we wish to stress that they were not originated by Rand, but we may certainly insist they are entailed or implied by Objectivist premises..." - Nathanial Branden, http://www.nathanielbranden.com/catalog/articles_essays/interview_fullcontext.htm
The fact that Objectivism is the title of Ayn Rand's philosophy is already recognized in the Wikipedia article on Ayn Rand: "Rand's philosophical system, Objectivism, encompasses positions on metaphysics, epistemology, ethics, politics and aesthetics." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayn_Rand#Objectivism:_Ayn_Rand.27s_philosophical_system
VisitorTalk 06:01, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
The page titled talk:list of major philosophers/Archive 1 has been deleted. Non-administrators can no longer view it. Hence as a public service, I am pasting here some comments from that page.
This alleged fact is not a fact. "Quite literally no one who seriously studies philosophy"? Bullshit. I suggest that the person who wrote the words above has not investigated and is substituting what he or she wishes for any investigation. Do you want a list of philosophy professors and philosophy graduate students who rank Ayn Rand as the most important of 20th-century philosophers? I could readily supply you with names of 20 such professors (I'll start compiling it). Graduate students would take longer. Telling a readily refutable lie will not help your credibility. Michael Hardy 01:43, 3 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I would submit that the authors and editors of the following works are among those who "seriously stud[y] philosophy":
The above list Ayn Rand among philosophers, contrary to the troll's bigotted assertion.
The following professors of philosophy will tell you that Ayn Rand was an important philosopher, contrary to the bigot's assertion:
Michael Hardy 19:46, 3 Nov 2003 (UTC)
By the way, the list above is of course a partial list. And also, one may list professors in other humanities fields than philosophy. I will also take up the anonymous posters challenge to list journal articles. That will take some time, but let's start with this one:
Michael Hardy 22:15, 3 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Recalling the dishonest claim again:
A scholar at New York University has told me that Ayn Rand has been discussed in the following scholarly journals (contrary to the claim about "any ... journal you like"); I'll try to cite articles on this discussion page as I find the cites:
Contrary to the claim about "any philosophy book ... you like", she is the topic of articles in the following encyclopedias:
Michael Hardy 20:17, 4 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I don't think the issue is really whether or not Rand's Objectivism constitutes a philosophy (or philosophical system), but whether the sometimes-heard assertion that it doesn't ought to be addressed in the article. It's obvious to me that the assertion is without merit.. The cultism accusation is a separate issue, and to me doesn't belong in this article, but rather in the (at least) two other articles where it is already mentioned. — DAGwyn 20:41, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
I agree that the assertion that Objectivism is not a philosophy or philosophical system is clearly without merit and should be dropped from the article. Also agree that the "cult" question is an unrelated issue. VisitorTalk 06:02, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
By mentioning Peikoff as the only name connected to cultism in the Objectivist movement, the paragraph in its current form perpetrates a falsehood. Ayn Rand was very aware of incipient cultism, and she forecefully stopped Branden from creating an Objectivist organization. Branden did a four-step: he started a lecture business, turned that lecture business in everything but name into the very organization that Rand tried to stop, appointed himself Ayn Rand's pope, and started excommunicating. Important heretics got an inquisition-style trial from Branden himself; lesser or younger ones got a "Holzer letter" (I got mine in 1965.) As for Peikoff, once he realized that he was imitating Branden and NBI, he resigned as head of ARI. Peikoff's own work got much better once he stopped playing cult leader. Yaron Brook's policy has been to get people to read Rand, not to tell them what to think about her books. He's been donating books left and right, including to classes of professors whose own teaching of Rand is pure invective against her and her ideas. And there has not been an excommunication since, not even when Robert Tracinski started posting deliberately provocative diatribes against Peikoff in public fora. The only cultism I've seen in recent years is from the partisans of... Nathaniel Branden. Something is missing from that paragraph... AdamReed 01:25, 19 June 2007 (UTC).
What did it say? Do you still have it?
I had that impression too.
David Kelley accused him of being cultish (at great length---a whole (if not so long) book); now you say Peikoff realized it and acted accordingly. Did he actually say so explicitly? What's the story on Peikoff's....um, repentance? I sat through a number of his courses (I wasn't present; I heard them on tape) and from time to time he annoyed me by what seemed like unreasonable impatience with the content of questions and the like. Later I read Nathaniel Branden's confessions book (Judgment Day; I haven't read the revised version that came out years later) and then I thought the problem with Peikoff is he's acting the way Branden said he did during his NBI power trip described in his confessions. As if he'd been well trained by Branden. I think Branden once described Peikoff as a monster that he---Branden---had created. I knew Peikoff had quit as head of ARI, but I assumed that was because he wanted to work on other things, like his "DIM hypothesis" and studying physics, etc. Michael Hardy 01:53, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
Glad you asked (by the way, good to see you here. I had lost track of you when I was busy with the tenure process, and then had no idea where you's gone.) I don't have any connection with ARI. From secondary sources, such as the discussions on Diana Hsie's blog, I understand that his "repentance" was to announce that he had suffered from "rationalism" (peikoff-talk for "ignoring empirical evidence") just like the rationalism of Nathaniel Branden. On the other hand, everything Peikoff predicted in "Fact and Value" has come to pass: Kelley turned his (semi-demi) Objectivist Center into The Institute for (semi-hemi-demi) Objectivist Studies, and then into (no mention of Objectivism) "Atlas Society." As for the Holzer letter, I probably still have it, but I'm not about to try to dig it out of musty papers from 4 decades ago. As I remember it, the lawyerly text said "you made an error in your interpretation of Objectivism." The lawyerly subtext said "heretic, be gone." Back to today: not long ago. Branden's partisans systematically extripated every fact and reference that was not hagiographic of Branden from the Wikipedia page on... Ayn Rand. But of course they denounce cultism, as long as it is not traced to their leader. AdamReed 02:32, 19 June 2007 (UTC).
Interesting. This goes a long way in explaining Reed's hostility towards Nathaniel. I've never seen anyone twist the facts in this particular direction before, blaming him for the cult of personality around Rand, as if he was somehow responsible for it instead of being yet another victim. The misguided hostility against Kelley is also scary, as is the willful blindness towards Brooks' continuation of Peikoff's policies.
I am thankful that Reed has shown us just how distorted his worldview is, so that we can use this insight into his mental state to understand the sorts of errors that stem from such blanket partisanship and evasion of reality. In the future, when he tries and fails to be objective, we will know that he is only reacting to his old emotional wounds from being ostracized by the group he felt was so important to him. It's a fine example of what happens when someone puts their self-esteem in the hands of others. ThAtSo 07:30, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
I think that ThAtSo's posting above requires no interpretive comment. As for DAGwyn's "That's an absolute lie," I know of no other explanation for his deletion of the mention of the "counseling" that Rand identified in contemporaneous notes as the proximate cause of her alienation from Branden, or of the source ref to those notes. The resulting paragraph corresponds exactly to Branden's narrative, as endlessmike88 noted in talk. DAGwin would gain credibility if his actual edits were a bit less partisan. Some mention of the fact that Scott was Branden's marital counseling client (Rand's stated reason for telling Branden that she was off-limits) and of the "counseling" would go a long way in that direction. AdamReed 14:52, 19 June 2007 (UTC).
So far, you haven't been on receiving end of that particular tone, and there's a reason for that; you haven't been blatently partisan. Now, as much as you say none of this would matter when everyone's dead, that's true about everything. We're alive now and the truth matters to us now. It's possible to separate Objectivism from Rand -- that's something I've been trying very hard to do -- but we do her no service by pretending that the story of her life is unimportant or irrelevant to her very personal philosophy. While Rand lived, Objectivism was whatever she said it was. Now that she's gone, all of these groups are fighting over her legacy. For a "baby Objectivist" trying to figure out what's going on, some insight into the past is essential. ThAtSo 17:34, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
The last round of unexplained changes by Reed reflect his track record of erasing whatever doesn't support his worldview and otherwise adding POV. I reverted them and will revert any changes, by Reed or anyone else, when they violate the non-negotiable NPOV policy of Wikipedia. ThAtSo 19:09, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
ThAtSo wrote:
Read Nathaniel Branden's book Judgment Day. It's pretty much what Branden says there, except he's not so explicit about the moral evaluations. He says he made Objectivism into a movement rather than a only body of writings. That alone could make one presume that he made it into the kind of movement it became. Branden also says in that book that he enjoyed having his students be in fear and awe of him. As a psychologist, he surely knew the tactics for getting that reaction. And he says that when Rand lost her temper, he always defended her and joined her in attacking the person she was angry at. Now consider: Rand was a hothead who lost her patience with people. Branden wanted NBI students to be in fear and awe of him. He always leapt to her defense, attacking the person she was angry at. He knew psychological tactics. What this adds up to is that with her it was emotion and with him it was tactics. The victim would remember that she got angry at him, hence have the impression that she was the one who was building up a cult based on fear and awe. And Branden also states in the book that he deceived her for a long time about their intimate relationship. All this is in Branden's own book. Now I suspect that James Valliant, being a prosecutor, has decided to go beyond saying Branden was guilty of certain things, into saying Branden is evil and worthless, because that's what prosecutors do. But Branden's own book says he was not just "another victim". Michael Hardy 00:33, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
the article is getting too long and needs pruned. since there are now main pages for most philosophical disciplines, perhaps we can cut some content? however, we shouldn't cut things that are needed to sustain npov.-- Buridan 11:30, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
Who wrote this section? It is, on a whole, almost entirely false. I'll take it assertion by assertion.
"little dialogue of any scholarly quality has passed between Objectivists and other kinds of philosophers" Hello! This is discussed in the Objectivist Movement article.
"There are several sociological and historial reasons for this, including but not limited to: the promotion of Objectivist philosophy by private organizations rather than academic institutions," The University of Texas isn't an academic institution? What about the University of Pittsburgh. What about the APA? Again, covered in the Objectivist Movement article.
"Additionally, the non-academic history of Objectivist philosophy creates a situation where many non-Objectivist philosophers find themselves talking past their Objectivist counterparts" Says who? That's a bold assertion to make with zero sources. Here is what Geoffrey Sayre-McCord, a well known professor of philosophy at UNC-Chapel Hill had to say about two conferences he attended between Objectivists and analytics: "I found both conferences engaging and interesting. It seemed like ordinary high-powered philosophy." That's from the latest issue of the Chronicle of Higher Education. He goes on to say that he benefited strongly from working with Objectivists.
"Objectivists tend to dismiss analytic philosophy as mere "linguistic analysis" Really? Which ones?
"Naturally, contemporary non-objectivist philosophers counter that much of Objectivism - such as its views on causation, free will, and the mind-body relationship - is false." Who? Where? Is Objectivism ignored by academics, or have they studied it and then rejected it. It can't be both.
"As well, Objectivism is hostile toward continental philosophies" No disagreement there. But how is a reader supposed to know what we are talking about without some citations or quotes?
"Though the volume and quality of the scholarship has improved, the presence of non-partisan evaluators has not." Unsourced evaluation.
"ARI-inspired works tend to eschew academic publication standards" Really? Then explain Tara Smith's CV, or Allan Gotthelf's article in the review of metaphysics, or Darryl Wright's article in Social Policy and Philosophy, or John Lewis's book contract with Princeton University Press, etc.
"Finally, many works critical of Objectivism seem superficial and fail to appreciate the complexity and internal coherence of the philosophy." Which ones?
This section is REALLY bad, especially when all the facts are available in the Objectivist Movement article. There are other problems as well, but this is enough to dismiss it. I'm deleting the whole section. Endlessmike 888 01:09, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm not really interested in debate for debate's sake. I'll wait for citations, then defend them. ThAtSo 05:05, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
I wasn't sure about the relationship between the Ayn Rand Society and the
American Philosophical Society Association and some google searches turned up very little, so I sent an e-mail to the APA. Apparently the ARS is not affiliated with the APA, though they do meet at the same time occasionally (quote from my e-mail: "The Ayn Rand Society is not affiliated with the APA, though they do meet in conjunction with us at some of our meetings.") I'll be removing the mention of the link.
WLU 20:39, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
The APS is probably my error when I originally put in the information. The relationship claimed by the ARS with the APA adds credibility to the ARS, which is doubtless why they have it on their website. I've checked the more recent proceedings of the APA and they do indeed have more recent appearances in the same capacity - single sessions of 3 hours, and a booth selling stuff. I'll be updating the link to the most recent version and modifying the wording a bit to hopefully something acceptable to everyone. Feedback please! WLU 12:48, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
If you're a frequent editor of Objectivism-related articles, you may have noticed that the Objectivism box has been changing lately. There are actually two different topics being debated, leading to reversions. The first is about what philosophies should be listed as influenced by Objectivism and the other is about some cosmetic and organizational changes that make the box more compact. Come join us and break the deadlock. ThAtSo 14:47, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Lets look at what we have: Economics / Physical science / Art - all examples of the influence of Objectivist ideas at work
Video Games - as above, the story of Atlas Shrugged is about Objectivist ideas
The article is about Objectivism - so references to things influenced by its ideas are relevant.
References to things that are clearly at odds with Objectivist ideas serve - and I'm sure included for this purpose by bias editors - only to *confuse* the user. Any movement or individual that embraces mysticism clearly rejects Objectivism at the root. Published claims by such individuals or movements are irrelevant. Karbinski 13:37, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm not questioning the verifiability or the truth of the reference. It is simply not relevant to this article. Person X has, and we can verify it, claimed to have been influenced by a set of ideas he explicitly disagrees with is simply not the stuff of a quality encyclopedic article. As for the veracity of the rest of the section, it can all go - I've commented above that the list presentation is questionable content. Karbinski 17:05, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia articles should be articles, not fact dump sites. It is verifiable that as a youth Ayn Rand thought she and Nietzsche shared common ground. Just because this little tid-bit could be added to an article on Nietzsche's philosophy with reliable citations DOES NOT mean it is relevant. It would only be clutter at best and confusing in the worst. It is the same with the reference under discussion. There seems to be consensus that if there is a <ref> tag - something makes good content. How can you argue this contributes to anyone's understanding of Rand's ideas or the criticisms of those ideas? Karbinski 19:45, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
As long as we are counting editors to claim consensus, Ethan a dawe agrees with me above - current count 50/50 split - so lay off the consensus angle.
As for the claim that this is supposed to be a dump site for facts, and at the same time well written - is a serious mistaken belief. Wikipedia (Encylopedias in general) has a structure: it is broken down by TOPIC. A well written article addresses its TOPIC. The topic of this article is the ideas contained with Ayn Rand's philosophy, one in the same as Objectivism. There is another article on LeVay Satanism where the topic is that set of ideas - here it would be relevant to include the references LeVay made to Ayn Rand's philosophy. Karbinski 14:17, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
btw, Nietzsche and Ayn Rand do NOT share common ground (according to the verifiable source), she thought they did in her *youth*, and (from another verifiable source) she did not consider herself a Philospher until she was 40 years of age. In no way would this bit of trivia 'contribute' to an article on the topic of Nietzshe's ideas Karbinski 14:22, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Or report neither if they contribute nothing to the topic of the report. I'll reiterate that neither the truth or verifiability are at question or issue here. Karbinski 13:00, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
I am not saying the relationship does not exist, it is clearly verifiable. What of it? It is ridiculous, while reporting on the topic of ideas x / y / z, to report that notable person A - whom holds the ideas ~x / ~y / ~z - claims to have been influenced by ideas x / y / z (that the notable person made the claim is, of course, verifiable). It is a biographical fact of notable person A and has nothing, I repeat nothing, to do with ideas x / y / z. Karbinski 13:00, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
This is a dispute about whether specific sub-sections (below) should be included in the page; the overall section discusses the impact of objectivism in various areas of culture and academia.
--
I propose that rather than having a section on "influence of objectivism in other areas," instead, discuss the influence of each major component of objectivism in the discussion of that component. For example, in the section on Objectivist aesthetics, include a subsection about the influence of Objectivist aesthetics. VisitorTalk 21:21, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
One of the goals of economist George Reisman's Capitalism: A Treatise on Economics is to place Austrian economics on a foundation of Objectivist epistemology and Objectivist politics. [1]
There have been efforts to apply Objectivism to the philosophy of physical science, in terms of ontology and epistemology, as well as ethical and political philosophy. [2]
The online art and philosophy of art review Aristos claims that it "owes much to the philosopher-novelist Ayn Rand". [3] In addition, fantasy author Terry Goodkind has incorporated Objectivist philosophy into his series of novels. [4] [5]
See also: Influence of Ayn Rand in popular culture
According to project director Ken Levine, BioShock, a video game in development by Irrational Games, will include many references to Objectivism, and its story will largely mirror Ayn Rand's novel Atlas Shrugged. [6]
LaVeyan Satanism, according to its originator, Anton LaVey, is "...just Ayn Rand's philosophy, with ceremony and ritual added". [7] The Church of Satan has clarified this in an essay explaining that, while LaVey was heavily inspired by Rand's ethics, he adapted the original philosophy and replaced her metaphysics with pragmatism and epistemology with mysticism. [8]
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Statements by editors previously involved in dispute
RE: facts merit mention - I would fully support a contribution to the article detailing a verifiable relationship between the value of Objectivism and influences outside of philosophy that was well written in prose. I would expect any such content to report on the article's topic and not list biographical facts about ridicously related notable persons and other such trivia (verifiable or otherwise). Karbinski 13:12, 15 August 2007 (UTC) (formatting?)
So... there seem to be two essentially polar opposite claims regarding the RFC. Do we wait further? Or how do people feel if all the sections were rolled together into a single prose paragraph that basically said 'Objectivism has been cited as impacting x, x, x, x and x'? WLU 18:27, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
Agreed, give it a couple more days and then we'll see as right now we still have some unresolved fundamental disagreements. Perhaps a specific RFC just on those two items, but let's see what happens. WLU
I had made this entry the other day, as the second paragraph to the article;
The capitalized term "Objectivism" does not appear in Websters or Oxford Dictionaries, The Stanford Dictionary of Philosophy, or the Encyclopedia Britanica. The lower case term appears in all these, and applies to a much broader set of beliefs then set forth by Rand, and is described as "any of various theories asserting the validity of objective phenomena over subjective experience; especially : REALISM"
It was undone, and I got this note;
Hello, I reverted your recent additions to the Objectivism article. The discussion about whether Objectivism is a philosophy and how the term Objectivism is used has been had several times. You can see this in the talk archives of the Objectivism article. If you wish to discuss this more or feel your changes are correct then please read the talk archives and discuse those changes on the talk page. Thanks! Ethan a dawe 12:32, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
Please note, it was not my goal to debate if Objectivism is a philosophy, etc... My goal was to highlight that "Objectivism" does not appear in dictionaries as a word. objectivism does, the more general term. I think it is important to point out to people that objectivism is a word, they will find in the dictionary, and it is a more general term. That Objectivism is not considered a word by the dictionary folks. The goal being to have people clearly understand that objectivism is not Objectivism, and understand the meaning of both terms as the proceed with the article. It took me a few days of looking in dictionaries, and talking to people to understand this. And it was only after a few days that I realized that Objectivism as used by the adherents to Rand, is not actually a word found in the dictionary. This info at the very top of the article will help save others time. That is why I stopped by wikipedia, and took the time to make the entry.
However you decide to rewrite that paragraph, I recommend, that right up at the top of the article I would clearly state that objectivism the general term and Objectivism the Rand specific term mean different things, and you will not find the word Objectivism (the rand term) dictionaries. Webulite 05:36, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
The sentence is biased original research that serves a POV purpose. Article quality should be the goal here. What is meant by conventional academic journals during Ayn Rand's lifetime is a research topic in its own right. This is the simplest case of WP:OR I've ever seen. Karbinski 13:16, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
As well, even a user who does know what is meant by "conventional academic journals during Ayn Rand's lifetime" will see that none are listed - the sentence is redundant in any case. Karbinski 13:27, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
The sentence is actually serving NPOV, not POV. without it people might confuse her work with academic work. granted, we could just remove the word conventional and it would be clearer. you also can't cite a lack of appearance, but you can document a lack of appearance. maybe we can find something more pertinent that actually explains that she could not get her work accepted, or perhaps we should just stick with the neutral statement that it did not appear? -- Buridan 16:50, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Buridan: you are clearly pushing a POV into an otherwise dry and factual NPOV paragraph of how she published her works. It is clearly covered in this article that she was not accepted by academics - with verifiable content - in the criticism section already. This article is about Objectivism, that there exists people that think Objectivism has no merit as a philosophy is not relevant - except for under the criticism section sourced from notable critics and verifiable via reliable sources. From user Buridan: "... every single journal where should have appeared ..." - *should* according to who? (answer: POV editor) - who researched such a list of journals? (answer: originator) Karbinski 19:14, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
There are plenty of non-original research critiques in the criticism section - some of which explicitly state Objectivism was not accepted by academia. The sentence's only purpose is to inject POV into the summary - the paragraph is NPOV without it, it gives us brute facts. The sentence packages a number of unanswered questions: did she try? *what* were these journals? what merit did these journals have? what is Objectivism (this is early in the article)? ... Even if you found a source in a conventional academic journal it would belong in the criticism section - where the point is already made. Karbinski 22:00, 14 September 2007 (UTC) again, the only pov being put in is in the deletion. you have brute facts, you add a brute fact... no worries. you delete a brute fact, what for? -- Buridan 23:53, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
The fact that user Buridan is trying to say so much about Ayn Rand as a scholar in this short little snippet is why it is POV. In the context of the paragraph, we have fact, fact, fact, and huh? what does that mean? -- why she didn't publish in certain journals is a topic in its own right, and just having the snippet out-of-context achieves what POV editor wants - distortion. See above - a brute fact does not leave so many open questions.
As for anonymous edit, the reference given does not verify what the sentence reports. Karbinski 13:57, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Aren't Rand's Objectivism and Neoconservatism rather closely related? It isn't mentioned anywhere in the article. — AldeBaer 00:12, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
Since the content is already in the article on the Objectivist movement, and there was no response for two days to the proposal (immediately above) to delete it from this article, it is time to do it. AdamReed 01:22, 15 June 2007 (UTC).
Buridan: Whether or not Objectivism is a philosophy, at least in the traditional sense of the word, is a valid question, and I know of reputable scholars who have argued the contrary. But tracts directed against the Objectivist movement are not source of relevant evidence on this issue. I was even thinking of adding such a section myself once the rest of the article is cut down to a reasonable size. Instead of posting stuff about the Objectivist movement to the article on the philosophical system, why don't you start on a (verifiable, NPOV) section, with real scholarly refs, on the "Is Objectivism a philosophy" question? AdamReed 04:45, 15 June 2007 (UTC).
Buridan: I've checked your "sources," and I have not been able to verify your claim that any of the 3 authors you cite actually consider Objectivism a "pseudophilosophy tied to a cult." Sherman makes clear the opposite: that he considers Objectivism a sound philosophy, the best one around. He criticises cultism on Objectivist grounds. The most that I found in the other two is that they sometimes say, for short, "Objectivism," when it is clear from context that they are writing about the Objectivist movement. There are serious scholars who question whether or not Rand's system is a philosophy, but those three do not appear, from the sources cited, to be among them; and in any case their focus, and context, is the movement and not the philosophy. The most that has been verifiably sourced is that some readers will be confused by their use of the word "Objectivism" as a shorthand for the Objectivist movement. In the absence of a verifiable cite from a primary or scholarly source I intend to edit accordingly. AdamReed 16:53, 15 June 2007 (UTC).
If I were to delete any mention of cult accusations from the Scientology page by claiming that all of these criticisms were directed only at the movement and church, not at the underlying philosophy and religion, would you be impressed by that line of argument? If you want to constructively improve this section, you have my full support. Removing it entirely would just be POV. ThAtSo 19:47, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
That is a reasonable suggestion, although this article already contains a subsection on Critiques, and the critique that Objectivism contributes to cultism in the Objectivist movement should be a paragraph or subsection in that subsection, not separate. Also a paragraph on the other (unrelated) critique that Objectivism is not a philosophy. ThAtSo: are you willing to bury the hatchet and list, here in Talk, what you think needs to be included? Rather than try to edit the subsection at the end, let's put together something concise (yes this article is already too long) under Critiques, and delete the section at the end when it is agreed on and in place. AdamReed 20:47, 15 June 2007 (UTC).
I don't think that the proposed paragraphs will be encyclopedic enough without actually listing and ref'ing the criticism. I'm ready to work on a ref'd text with substantive discussion, but I have a life too, and getting the refs together will take time. Structurally, each paragraph should start with a synopsis of each category of critique, then name names, then discuss. AdamReed 22:34, 15 June 2007 (UTC).
Where she says Objectivism is... what? ThAtSo 13:00, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
i'm fine with the current version.-- Buridan 08:47, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
I've looked through claims that Objectivism is not a philosophy, and all but one pre-date Peikoff's OPAR, and say that it is not a philosophical system because it was never published as a philosophical system. There have been no such criticisms since the publication of OPAR, so I am inclined to leave them out, because they are obsolete. The one exception is Merrill's claim that Objectivism is not a philosophy but rather the starting point of a set of new natural (albeit theoretical) sciences concerned with questions that previously were the exclusive concern of philosophy. I'll need to cite my own work, but it is from a refereed journal (JARS) and definitely not original research for the Wikipedia. Comments? AdamReed 02:02, 17 June 2007 (UTC).
The claim that Objectivism "was never published as a philosophical system" is easily refuted by the most cursory review of the facts, and therefore not worthy of inclusion in an encyclopedia.
"Ayn Rand named her philosophy 'Objectivism.'" - Ayn Rand Institute, http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=objectivism_index
"Until or unless I write a comprehensive treatise on my philosophy, Dr. Peikoff's course is the only authorized presentation of the entire theoretical structure of Objectivism, i.e., the only one that I know of my own knowledge to be fully accurate." - Ayn Rand, quoted at http://www.peikoff.com/opar/
"Branden: You can define Objectivism as simply "the philosophy formulated by Ayn Rand." Or you can define it as "a philosophy formulated by Ayn Rand that teaches that...etc., etc., etc." What difference does it make? Isn't this pedantry? The truth is, Objectivism is both, depending on context — a proper noun and a concept.
In the real world "Objectivism" stands for a set of ideas formulated by Rand. Once those ideas are published, they acquire a life of their own. They can be accepted by different people to varying degrees. They are intellectual tools, really. Ways to understand the world. It's unrealistic to think one can freeze that philosophy into a static set of concepts and insist that no further implication, derived from the same base, is "Objectivism." We may not call our new thoughts "Objectivism," if we wish to stress that they were not originated by Rand, but we may certainly insist they are entailed or implied by Objectivist premises..." - Nathanial Branden, http://www.nathanielbranden.com/catalog/articles_essays/interview_fullcontext.htm
The fact that Objectivism is the title of Ayn Rand's philosophy is already recognized in the Wikipedia article on Ayn Rand: "Rand's philosophical system, Objectivism, encompasses positions on metaphysics, epistemology, ethics, politics and aesthetics." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayn_Rand#Objectivism:_Ayn_Rand.27s_philosophical_system
VisitorTalk 06:01, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
The page titled talk:list of major philosophers/Archive 1 has been deleted. Non-administrators can no longer view it. Hence as a public service, I am pasting here some comments from that page.
This alleged fact is not a fact. "Quite literally no one who seriously studies philosophy"? Bullshit. I suggest that the person who wrote the words above has not investigated and is substituting what he or she wishes for any investigation. Do you want a list of philosophy professors and philosophy graduate students who rank Ayn Rand as the most important of 20th-century philosophers? I could readily supply you with names of 20 such professors (I'll start compiling it). Graduate students would take longer. Telling a readily refutable lie will not help your credibility. Michael Hardy 01:43, 3 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I would submit that the authors and editors of the following works are among those who "seriously stud[y] philosophy":
The above list Ayn Rand among philosophers, contrary to the troll's bigotted assertion.
The following professors of philosophy will tell you that Ayn Rand was an important philosopher, contrary to the bigot's assertion:
Michael Hardy 19:46, 3 Nov 2003 (UTC)
By the way, the list above is of course a partial list. And also, one may list professors in other humanities fields than philosophy. I will also take up the anonymous posters challenge to list journal articles. That will take some time, but let's start with this one:
Michael Hardy 22:15, 3 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Recalling the dishonest claim again:
A scholar at New York University has told me that Ayn Rand has been discussed in the following scholarly journals (contrary to the claim about "any ... journal you like"); I'll try to cite articles on this discussion page as I find the cites:
Contrary to the claim about "any philosophy book ... you like", she is the topic of articles in the following encyclopedias:
Michael Hardy 20:17, 4 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I don't think the issue is really whether or not Rand's Objectivism constitutes a philosophy (or philosophical system), but whether the sometimes-heard assertion that it doesn't ought to be addressed in the article. It's obvious to me that the assertion is without merit.. The cultism accusation is a separate issue, and to me doesn't belong in this article, but rather in the (at least) two other articles where it is already mentioned. — DAGwyn 20:41, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
I agree that the assertion that Objectivism is not a philosophy or philosophical system is clearly without merit and should be dropped from the article. Also agree that the "cult" question is an unrelated issue. VisitorTalk 06:02, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
By mentioning Peikoff as the only name connected to cultism in the Objectivist movement, the paragraph in its current form perpetrates a falsehood. Ayn Rand was very aware of incipient cultism, and she forecefully stopped Branden from creating an Objectivist organization. Branden did a four-step: he started a lecture business, turned that lecture business in everything but name into the very organization that Rand tried to stop, appointed himself Ayn Rand's pope, and started excommunicating. Important heretics got an inquisition-style trial from Branden himself; lesser or younger ones got a "Holzer letter" (I got mine in 1965.) As for Peikoff, once he realized that he was imitating Branden and NBI, he resigned as head of ARI. Peikoff's own work got much better once he stopped playing cult leader. Yaron Brook's policy has been to get people to read Rand, not to tell them what to think about her books. He's been donating books left and right, including to classes of professors whose own teaching of Rand is pure invective against her and her ideas. And there has not been an excommunication since, not even when Robert Tracinski started posting deliberately provocative diatribes against Peikoff in public fora. The only cultism I've seen in recent years is from the partisans of... Nathaniel Branden. Something is missing from that paragraph... AdamReed 01:25, 19 June 2007 (UTC).
What did it say? Do you still have it?
I had that impression too.
David Kelley accused him of being cultish (at great length---a whole (if not so long) book); now you say Peikoff realized it and acted accordingly. Did he actually say so explicitly? What's the story on Peikoff's....um, repentance? I sat through a number of his courses (I wasn't present; I heard them on tape) and from time to time he annoyed me by what seemed like unreasonable impatience with the content of questions and the like. Later I read Nathaniel Branden's confessions book (Judgment Day; I haven't read the revised version that came out years later) and then I thought the problem with Peikoff is he's acting the way Branden said he did during his NBI power trip described in his confessions. As if he'd been well trained by Branden. I think Branden once described Peikoff as a monster that he---Branden---had created. I knew Peikoff had quit as head of ARI, but I assumed that was because he wanted to work on other things, like his "DIM hypothesis" and studying physics, etc. Michael Hardy 01:53, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
Glad you asked (by the way, good to see you here. I had lost track of you when I was busy with the tenure process, and then had no idea where you's gone.) I don't have any connection with ARI. From secondary sources, such as the discussions on Diana Hsie's blog, I understand that his "repentance" was to announce that he had suffered from "rationalism" (peikoff-talk for "ignoring empirical evidence") just like the rationalism of Nathaniel Branden. On the other hand, everything Peikoff predicted in "Fact and Value" has come to pass: Kelley turned his (semi-demi) Objectivist Center into The Institute for (semi-hemi-demi) Objectivist Studies, and then into (no mention of Objectivism) "Atlas Society." As for the Holzer letter, I probably still have it, but I'm not about to try to dig it out of musty papers from 4 decades ago. As I remember it, the lawyerly text said "you made an error in your interpretation of Objectivism." The lawyerly subtext said "heretic, be gone." Back to today: not long ago. Branden's partisans systematically extripated every fact and reference that was not hagiographic of Branden from the Wikipedia page on... Ayn Rand. But of course they denounce cultism, as long as it is not traced to their leader. AdamReed 02:32, 19 June 2007 (UTC).
Interesting. This goes a long way in explaining Reed's hostility towards Nathaniel. I've never seen anyone twist the facts in this particular direction before, blaming him for the cult of personality around Rand, as if he was somehow responsible for it instead of being yet another victim. The misguided hostility against Kelley is also scary, as is the willful blindness towards Brooks' continuation of Peikoff's policies.
I am thankful that Reed has shown us just how distorted his worldview is, so that we can use this insight into his mental state to understand the sorts of errors that stem from such blanket partisanship and evasion of reality. In the future, when he tries and fails to be objective, we will know that he is only reacting to his old emotional wounds from being ostracized by the group he felt was so important to him. It's a fine example of what happens when someone puts their self-esteem in the hands of others. ThAtSo 07:30, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
I think that ThAtSo's posting above requires no interpretive comment. As for DAGwyn's "That's an absolute lie," I know of no other explanation for his deletion of the mention of the "counseling" that Rand identified in contemporaneous notes as the proximate cause of her alienation from Branden, or of the source ref to those notes. The resulting paragraph corresponds exactly to Branden's narrative, as endlessmike88 noted in talk. DAGwin would gain credibility if his actual edits were a bit less partisan. Some mention of the fact that Scott was Branden's marital counseling client (Rand's stated reason for telling Branden that she was off-limits) and of the "counseling" would go a long way in that direction. AdamReed 14:52, 19 June 2007 (UTC).
So far, you haven't been on receiving end of that particular tone, and there's a reason for that; you haven't been blatently partisan. Now, as much as you say none of this would matter when everyone's dead, that's true about everything. We're alive now and the truth matters to us now. It's possible to separate Objectivism from Rand -- that's something I've been trying very hard to do -- but we do her no service by pretending that the story of her life is unimportant or irrelevant to her very personal philosophy. While Rand lived, Objectivism was whatever she said it was. Now that she's gone, all of these groups are fighting over her legacy. For a "baby Objectivist" trying to figure out what's going on, some insight into the past is essential. ThAtSo 17:34, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
The last round of unexplained changes by Reed reflect his track record of erasing whatever doesn't support his worldview and otherwise adding POV. I reverted them and will revert any changes, by Reed or anyone else, when they violate the non-negotiable NPOV policy of Wikipedia. ThAtSo 19:09, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
ThAtSo wrote:
Read Nathaniel Branden's book Judgment Day. It's pretty much what Branden says there, except he's not so explicit about the moral evaluations. He says he made Objectivism into a movement rather than a only body of writings. That alone could make one presume that he made it into the kind of movement it became. Branden also says in that book that he enjoyed having his students be in fear and awe of him. As a psychologist, he surely knew the tactics for getting that reaction. And he says that when Rand lost her temper, he always defended her and joined her in attacking the person she was angry at. Now consider: Rand was a hothead who lost her patience with people. Branden wanted NBI students to be in fear and awe of him. He always leapt to her defense, attacking the person she was angry at. He knew psychological tactics. What this adds up to is that with her it was emotion and with him it was tactics. The victim would remember that she got angry at him, hence have the impression that she was the one who was building up a cult based on fear and awe. And Branden also states in the book that he deceived her for a long time about their intimate relationship. All this is in Branden's own book. Now I suspect that James Valliant, being a prosecutor, has decided to go beyond saying Branden was guilty of certain things, into saying Branden is evil and worthless, because that's what prosecutors do. But Branden's own book says he was not just "another victim". Michael Hardy 00:33, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
the article is getting too long and needs pruned. since there are now main pages for most philosophical disciplines, perhaps we can cut some content? however, we shouldn't cut things that are needed to sustain npov.-- Buridan 11:30, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
Who wrote this section? It is, on a whole, almost entirely false. I'll take it assertion by assertion.
"little dialogue of any scholarly quality has passed between Objectivists and other kinds of philosophers" Hello! This is discussed in the Objectivist Movement article.
"There are several sociological and historial reasons for this, including but not limited to: the promotion of Objectivist philosophy by private organizations rather than academic institutions," The University of Texas isn't an academic institution? What about the University of Pittsburgh. What about the APA? Again, covered in the Objectivist Movement article.
"Additionally, the non-academic history of Objectivist philosophy creates a situation where many non-Objectivist philosophers find themselves talking past their Objectivist counterparts" Says who? That's a bold assertion to make with zero sources. Here is what Geoffrey Sayre-McCord, a well known professor of philosophy at UNC-Chapel Hill had to say about two conferences he attended between Objectivists and analytics: "I found both conferences engaging and interesting. It seemed like ordinary high-powered philosophy." That's from the latest issue of the Chronicle of Higher Education. He goes on to say that he benefited strongly from working with Objectivists.
"Objectivists tend to dismiss analytic philosophy as mere "linguistic analysis" Really? Which ones?
"Naturally, contemporary non-objectivist philosophers counter that much of Objectivism - such as its views on causation, free will, and the mind-body relationship - is false." Who? Where? Is Objectivism ignored by academics, or have they studied it and then rejected it. It can't be both.
"As well, Objectivism is hostile toward continental philosophies" No disagreement there. But how is a reader supposed to know what we are talking about without some citations or quotes?
"Though the volume and quality of the scholarship has improved, the presence of non-partisan evaluators has not." Unsourced evaluation.
"ARI-inspired works tend to eschew academic publication standards" Really? Then explain Tara Smith's CV, or Allan Gotthelf's article in the review of metaphysics, or Darryl Wright's article in Social Policy and Philosophy, or John Lewis's book contract with Princeton University Press, etc.
"Finally, many works critical of Objectivism seem superficial and fail to appreciate the complexity and internal coherence of the philosophy." Which ones?
This section is REALLY bad, especially when all the facts are available in the Objectivist Movement article. There are other problems as well, but this is enough to dismiss it. I'm deleting the whole section. Endlessmike 888 01:09, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm not really interested in debate for debate's sake. I'll wait for citations, then defend them. ThAtSo 05:05, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
I wasn't sure about the relationship between the Ayn Rand Society and the
American Philosophical Society Association and some google searches turned up very little, so I sent an e-mail to the APA. Apparently the ARS is not affiliated with the APA, though they do meet at the same time occasionally (quote from my e-mail: "The Ayn Rand Society is not affiliated with the APA, though they do meet in conjunction with us at some of our meetings.") I'll be removing the mention of the link.
WLU 20:39, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
The APS is probably my error when I originally put in the information. The relationship claimed by the ARS with the APA adds credibility to the ARS, which is doubtless why they have it on their website. I've checked the more recent proceedings of the APA and they do indeed have more recent appearances in the same capacity - single sessions of 3 hours, and a booth selling stuff. I'll be updating the link to the most recent version and modifying the wording a bit to hopefully something acceptable to everyone. Feedback please! WLU 12:48, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
If you're a frequent editor of Objectivism-related articles, you may have noticed that the Objectivism box has been changing lately. There are actually two different topics being debated, leading to reversions. The first is about what philosophies should be listed as influenced by Objectivism and the other is about some cosmetic and organizational changes that make the box more compact. Come join us and break the deadlock. ThAtSo 14:47, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Lets look at what we have: Economics / Physical science / Art - all examples of the influence of Objectivist ideas at work
Video Games - as above, the story of Atlas Shrugged is about Objectivist ideas
The article is about Objectivism - so references to things influenced by its ideas are relevant.
References to things that are clearly at odds with Objectivist ideas serve - and I'm sure included for this purpose by bias editors - only to *confuse* the user. Any movement or individual that embraces mysticism clearly rejects Objectivism at the root. Published claims by such individuals or movements are irrelevant. Karbinski 13:37, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm not questioning the verifiability or the truth of the reference. It is simply not relevant to this article. Person X has, and we can verify it, claimed to have been influenced by a set of ideas he explicitly disagrees with is simply not the stuff of a quality encyclopedic article. As for the veracity of the rest of the section, it can all go - I've commented above that the list presentation is questionable content. Karbinski 17:05, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia articles should be articles, not fact dump sites. It is verifiable that as a youth Ayn Rand thought she and Nietzsche shared common ground. Just because this little tid-bit could be added to an article on Nietzsche's philosophy with reliable citations DOES NOT mean it is relevant. It would only be clutter at best and confusing in the worst. It is the same with the reference under discussion. There seems to be consensus that if there is a <ref> tag - something makes good content. How can you argue this contributes to anyone's understanding of Rand's ideas or the criticisms of those ideas? Karbinski 19:45, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
As long as we are counting editors to claim consensus, Ethan a dawe agrees with me above - current count 50/50 split - so lay off the consensus angle.
As for the claim that this is supposed to be a dump site for facts, and at the same time well written - is a serious mistaken belief. Wikipedia (Encylopedias in general) has a structure: it is broken down by TOPIC. A well written article addresses its TOPIC. The topic of this article is the ideas contained with Ayn Rand's philosophy, one in the same as Objectivism. There is another article on LeVay Satanism where the topic is that set of ideas - here it would be relevant to include the references LeVay made to Ayn Rand's philosophy. Karbinski 14:17, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
btw, Nietzsche and Ayn Rand do NOT share common ground (according to the verifiable source), she thought they did in her *youth*, and (from another verifiable source) she did not consider herself a Philospher until she was 40 years of age. In no way would this bit of trivia 'contribute' to an article on the topic of Nietzshe's ideas Karbinski 14:22, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Or report neither if they contribute nothing to the topic of the report. I'll reiterate that neither the truth or verifiability are at question or issue here. Karbinski 13:00, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
I am not saying the relationship does not exist, it is clearly verifiable. What of it? It is ridiculous, while reporting on the topic of ideas x / y / z, to report that notable person A - whom holds the ideas ~x / ~y / ~z - claims to have been influenced by ideas x / y / z (that the notable person made the claim is, of course, verifiable). It is a biographical fact of notable person A and has nothing, I repeat nothing, to do with ideas x / y / z. Karbinski 13:00, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
This is a dispute about whether specific sub-sections (below) should be included in the page; the overall section discusses the impact of objectivism in various areas of culture and academia.
--
I propose that rather than having a section on "influence of objectivism in other areas," instead, discuss the influence of each major component of objectivism in the discussion of that component. For example, in the section on Objectivist aesthetics, include a subsection about the influence of Objectivist aesthetics. VisitorTalk 21:21, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
One of the goals of economist George Reisman's Capitalism: A Treatise on Economics is to place Austrian economics on a foundation of Objectivist epistemology and Objectivist politics. [1]
There have been efforts to apply Objectivism to the philosophy of physical science, in terms of ontology and epistemology, as well as ethical and political philosophy. [2]
The online art and philosophy of art review Aristos claims that it "owes much to the philosopher-novelist Ayn Rand". [3] In addition, fantasy author Terry Goodkind has incorporated Objectivist philosophy into his series of novels. [4] [5]
See also: Influence of Ayn Rand in popular culture
According to project director Ken Levine, BioShock, a video game in development by Irrational Games, will include many references to Objectivism, and its story will largely mirror Ayn Rand's novel Atlas Shrugged. [6]
LaVeyan Satanism, according to its originator, Anton LaVey, is "...just Ayn Rand's philosophy, with ceremony and ritual added". [7] The Church of Satan has clarified this in an essay explaining that, while LaVey was heavily inspired by Rand's ethics, he adapted the original philosophy and replaced her metaphysics with pragmatism and epistemology with mysticism. [8]
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Statements by editors previously involved in dispute
RE: facts merit mention - I would fully support a contribution to the article detailing a verifiable relationship between the value of Objectivism and influences outside of philosophy that was well written in prose. I would expect any such content to report on the article's topic and not list biographical facts about ridicously related notable persons and other such trivia (verifiable or otherwise). Karbinski 13:12, 15 August 2007 (UTC) (formatting?)
So... there seem to be two essentially polar opposite claims regarding the RFC. Do we wait further? Or how do people feel if all the sections were rolled together into a single prose paragraph that basically said 'Objectivism has been cited as impacting x, x, x, x and x'? WLU 18:27, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
Agreed, give it a couple more days and then we'll see as right now we still have some unresolved fundamental disagreements. Perhaps a specific RFC just on those two items, but let's see what happens. WLU
I had made this entry the other day, as the second paragraph to the article;
The capitalized term "Objectivism" does not appear in Websters or Oxford Dictionaries, The Stanford Dictionary of Philosophy, or the Encyclopedia Britanica. The lower case term appears in all these, and applies to a much broader set of beliefs then set forth by Rand, and is described as "any of various theories asserting the validity of objective phenomena over subjective experience; especially : REALISM"
It was undone, and I got this note;
Hello, I reverted your recent additions to the Objectivism article. The discussion about whether Objectivism is a philosophy and how the term Objectivism is used has been had several times. You can see this in the talk archives of the Objectivism article. If you wish to discuss this more or feel your changes are correct then please read the talk archives and discuse those changes on the talk page. Thanks! Ethan a dawe 12:32, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
Please note, it was not my goal to debate if Objectivism is a philosophy, etc... My goal was to highlight that "Objectivism" does not appear in dictionaries as a word. objectivism does, the more general term. I think it is important to point out to people that objectivism is a word, they will find in the dictionary, and it is a more general term. That Objectivism is not considered a word by the dictionary folks. The goal being to have people clearly understand that objectivism is not Objectivism, and understand the meaning of both terms as the proceed with the article. It took me a few days of looking in dictionaries, and talking to people to understand this. And it was only after a few days that I realized that Objectivism as used by the adherents to Rand, is not actually a word found in the dictionary. This info at the very top of the article will help save others time. That is why I stopped by wikipedia, and took the time to make the entry.
However you decide to rewrite that paragraph, I recommend, that right up at the top of the article I would clearly state that objectivism the general term and Objectivism the Rand specific term mean different things, and you will not find the word Objectivism (the rand term) dictionaries. Webulite 05:36, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
The sentence is biased original research that serves a POV purpose. Article quality should be the goal here. What is meant by conventional academic journals during Ayn Rand's lifetime is a research topic in its own right. This is the simplest case of WP:OR I've ever seen. Karbinski 13:16, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
As well, even a user who does know what is meant by "conventional academic journals during Ayn Rand's lifetime" will see that none are listed - the sentence is redundant in any case. Karbinski 13:27, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
The sentence is actually serving NPOV, not POV. without it people might confuse her work with academic work. granted, we could just remove the word conventional and it would be clearer. you also can't cite a lack of appearance, but you can document a lack of appearance. maybe we can find something more pertinent that actually explains that she could not get her work accepted, or perhaps we should just stick with the neutral statement that it did not appear? -- Buridan 16:50, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Buridan: you are clearly pushing a POV into an otherwise dry and factual NPOV paragraph of how she published her works. It is clearly covered in this article that she was not accepted by academics - with verifiable content - in the criticism section already. This article is about Objectivism, that there exists people that think Objectivism has no merit as a philosophy is not relevant - except for under the criticism section sourced from notable critics and verifiable via reliable sources. From user Buridan: "... every single journal where should have appeared ..." - *should* according to who? (answer: POV editor) - who researched such a list of journals? (answer: originator) Karbinski 19:14, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
There are plenty of non-original research critiques in the criticism section - some of which explicitly state Objectivism was not accepted by academia. The sentence's only purpose is to inject POV into the summary - the paragraph is NPOV without it, it gives us brute facts. The sentence packages a number of unanswered questions: did she try? *what* were these journals? what merit did these journals have? what is Objectivism (this is early in the article)? ... Even if you found a source in a conventional academic journal it would belong in the criticism section - where the point is already made. Karbinski 22:00, 14 September 2007 (UTC) again, the only pov being put in is in the deletion. you have brute facts, you add a brute fact... no worries. you delete a brute fact, what for? -- Buridan 23:53, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
The fact that user Buridan is trying to say so much about Ayn Rand as a scholar in this short little snippet is why it is POV. In the context of the paragraph, we have fact, fact, fact, and huh? what does that mean? -- why she didn't publish in certain journals is a topic in its own right, and just having the snippet out-of-context achieves what POV editor wants - distortion. See above - a brute fact does not leave so many open questions.
As for anonymous edit, the reference given does not verify what the sentence reports. Karbinski 13:57, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
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