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I think that using an all-encompassing term like alternative rock for this record simply because it is easy to do so is somewhat lazy and inaccurate. Ok Computer is clearly the point at which Radiohead started transitioning into the experimental and unconventional band it is today. I think that Rolling Stone's characterization at the time of this record as art rock is a very strong validation of the point I'm trying to make. That being the case, I think it's more accurate to include something beyond just 'alternative rock,' seeing as how it's being cited from one the world's most popular music magazines. Mlillybaltimore ( talk) 15:18, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
Did you not read the Rolling Stone review? It very clearly describes the record as 'an art rock tour de force.' Rolling Stone meets Wikipedia's standards for reliability. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mlillybaltimore ( talk • contribs) 16:41, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
Just because you don't agree with the characterization doesn't mean that you can randomly delete sources considered reliable by wikipedia's standards. If you want to delete a reliable source, you need to at least replace it with a different reliable source. But the bottom line is that removing a citation from one of the biggest and most respected music journalism publications in the world just because you personally disagree with it is borderline vandalism. If you want to include a tenuous genre characterization, then find a source to back it up and put it on the page...don't randomly delete a perfectly acceptable citation. Mlillybaltimore ( talk) 03:05, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
In a case like this where there is clearly a dispute regarding a genre, the easiest and most neutral way to resolve it is for people to simply provide a citation from a reliable third party source. I'll propose the following compromise: If either of you can find a reliable third party source that calls this record alternative rock, that also somehow is more acceptable to you than a review from one of the world's biggest music magazines (which you will have to explain), then please post it and I will cease adding the Rolling Stone article. But if you take the time to review Wikipedia's own guidelines, you'll see that my citation meets those guidelines. You're relying on conventional, popular OPINION as the basis for the argument you're making, whereas I'm providing a cited reference. Asking that you provide at least one single source that meets your own standards should not be too much to ask. Find the source and I will let this go. Mlillybaltimore ( talk) 14:20, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
Those are all listed under 'style,' not 'genre.' Alternative rock is also not listed in the text of the review. I don't know where you stand on the merits of allmusic.com vs. Rolling Stone, but the discussion would need to take place as to why one is more reliable than the other. Rolling Stone album reviews are cited on numerous Wikipedia pages, as are allmusic.com Mlillybaltimore ( talk) 15:15, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
Works for me. Wesley? Brandt? Mlillybaltimore ( talk) 15:32, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
As I've said multiple times, the way Wikipedia works is that you have to provide verifiable and reliable citations. You don't just lazily throw up an unverified and uncited claim just because that is easier to do so and because it is your subjective opinion. If it's so painfully obvious that this record is in the genre alternative rock, it shouldn't be hard to find a reliable source to include with this article. Again, all someone has to do is cite a verifiable source that meets Wikipedia's standards for reliability, and this matter can be put to rest. Mlillybaltimore ( talk) 14:11, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
Adding a reference that meets Wikipedia's standards is not subjective. And if it is, it is certainly much less objective than demanding that something remain in an article with no citation at all. This whole thing started because I cited a review from Rolling Stone characterizing the album as art rock that some people took issue with, and insisted on reverting the infobox to alternative rock only, but with absolutely no verifiable or reliable sources to go along with it (which goes runs completely counter to Wikipedia's guidelines). I still stand by my argument that if it is so important to some parties that art rock goes, and alternative rock stays, there needs to be at least one citation to go along with it. I'm perfectly happy leaving both though if everyone can agree on it. I think a fair trade is that the majority alternative rock crowd gets to leave that genre in the infobox uncited, and the minority art rock crowd gets to leave the Rolling Stone review as an acceptable part of the article. Mlillybaltimore ( talk) 19:09, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
Well than find a source calling the record alternative rock that is perfectly acceptable based on those standards. If you can't do that, then this whole argument is pointless. Mlillybaltimore ( talk) 21:17, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
OK, here goes:
I could go on. Again, this is a fact that can be taken for granted. I know you say Wikipedia doesn't work that way, and to a degree you're correct. However, this is more or less like someone on George Washington's page calling him a king because they found a reliable source that says something like, say, "George Washington acted more like a king then a president", then insisting on other editors to find sources that show Washington was a president. The Rolling Stone source, though reliable, is problematic. Numerous, countless, sources can be found to show OK Computer is alternative rock. -- Brandt Luke Zorn ( talk) 00:43, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
That's awesome, but only one of those sources meets Wikipedia's standards for being verifiable, and you offer nothing in the way of saying why The Onion is a more valid source than Rolling Stone. The Onion is not primarily a music review and journalism publication; Rolling Stone is. The Allmusic entry lists the style of OK Computer as alternative rock, not the genre. There's a link right at the bottom of this box that shows what counts as being verifiable or not, and only the last thing that you list qualifies as meeting those standards within the scope of that description. Again, even though some of you don't agree with the Rolling Stone piece doesn't mean that it doesn't meet Wikipedia's standards. Let's leave both and be done with it. Mlillybaltimore ( talk) 01:28, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
And don't say that this or that 'is more or less like' anything. Wikipedia has very clear standards when it comes to verifiable and reliable sources. Nothing you listed above meets that threshold. In the analogy you used above, it would be extremely easy to find a reliable and verifiable source calling Washington a president. Nothing to date has been cited calling OK Computer alternative rock that meets Wikipedia's standards. Mlillybaltimore ( talk) 02:07, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
Absolutely not. The AV Club is part of the Onion, don't pretend that it is not. And in any case, that source never calls the album alternative rock, and YOU have not made the case that Rolling Stone is a less reliable source than what you provided. Tell me the exact quotation where it does. You still have not provided a verifiable and reliable source backing up your assertion, where as I have. Include a source that meets Wikipedia's standards. Mlillybaltimore ( talk) 03:22, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
It has NOT been backed up by reliable and verifiable sources. You need to provide citations that meet Wikipedia's standards to have a leg to stand on here. Mlillybaltimore ( talk) 03:26, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
"The AV Club is part of the Onion, don't pretend that it is not." Wrong, and it makes me feel like you're trolling.
"YOU have not made the case that Rolling Stone is a less reliable source than what you provided." Wrong. This is why I keep reiterating the problem with the RS source that you have not addressed. So, I quote again: What WesleyDodds said earlier about the Rolling Stone source still applies: "The citation is not 'perfectly acceptable' because it relies on a passing phrase that can't even be specifically tied to the genre." You still have not responded to that. Your actions have become borderline disruptive and I would strongly advise that you do not revert the page again. -- Brandt Luke Zorn ( talk) 18:35, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
This is an absolutely flawless article. I see nothing against it to get around to making it an FA candidate. Sir Richardson ( talk) 19:41, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
I wish they'd stop deleting Radiohead articles, it makes Radiohead look bad by saying "this song that's on a best of charted isn't important enough to have an article." I mean I'm still annoyed that my You and Whose Army article was deleted... Why can't we add information and not destroy it? If I was were you I'd try bringing it back, but don't be surprised if they pointless picky admins delete it. -- Mrmoustache14 ( talk) 04:24, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
On The Bends article "Bones" and "The Bends" were shown as promotional singles and Lucky was one as well so why isn't it listed on the OK Computer singles lists. It was more popular than "Bones" and "The Bends" and it had a music video. — Preceding unsigned comment added by -- Mrmoustache14 ( talk) 16:28, 24 August 2012 (UTC) Mrmoustache14 ( talk • contribs) 16:20, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
WP is an encyclopedia, not a fansite, and we have guidelines against this sort of thing (see above), which is why I removed it. "In subsequent years, the album has been frequently cited by critics as one of the greatest albums ever recorded" - what does it mean? How frequently? Cited by which critics? Greatest album ever recorded, including every jazz, black metal and grime album? Do you know how many pages make that claim about "described/cited as one of the best albums ever" and how it easy it is to find one or two reviews or listener polls where a hyperventilating music critic or random self-selecting electorate has claimed as much for most albums at one time or other? Simply saying it is reflected in the body, or that we're not explicitly claiming it is one of the greatest albums, doesn't cut it. You're lucky the equally cringe-worthy "predicted the album was epochal" was not struck out as well. There's plenty of note for the album's reputation without having this hyperbole. N-HH talk/ edits 09:05, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
Not that it's necessarily considered to be a reliable source by Wiki, but Acclaimed Music's aggregate (which pointly only considered non-genre-specific critics' lists by notable publishers) does indeed rank OK Computer as one of the most acclaimed albums of all time, of any genre. Offhand, I believe it's in the top 20. The acclaim for this album isn't limited to alt/indie or even rock circles. WesleyDodds ( talk) 22:27, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
Agreed. I don't thing it's too "fan-site" at all to add the Acclaimed Music aggregate to the list. There's a page for it here, which means it obviously passes on notability. In addition, it does not count the lists of any fan or reader who hasn't studied much rock history. Relying on AM for an idea of the most well-received albums is relying on a highly reliable source. Can we add that back? Novice listeners who don't want to look at all these different lists at once will then have a good idea of how well-received it is by the professionals. AndrewOne ( talk) 19:54, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
Sorry, but "OK Computer received considerable acclaim upon release. Prominent British and American rock critics predicted the album would have far-reaching cultural impact. In subsequent years, the album has been cited by listeners, critics, and musicians as one of the greatest albums of all time" is all a bit hyperbolic, per the above comments. Not least because if one actually goes into the body, actually there are plenty of critical views cited. Equally, I can't see anything about "far reaching cultural impact". And as for "cited by ..", one has to ask which "listeners, critics, and musicians" as well as noting that most of the polls are for albums "of the 1990s" not "of all time". Even allowing for the transience of such things, and the fact that WP is an encyclopedia not a piece of music journalism, the only quoted "of all time" poll, the Rolling Stone 2003 poll, has it down at no 162. Could we look at toning this down or qualifying it again, at least a bit? We're going to reach a point where every album's WP page tells us that it is "critically lauded", "a landmark" or "the greatest ever". If you look hard enough in the archives of music journalism you can find justification for that kind of description for anything. N-HH talk/ edits 10:18, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of OK Computer's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "allmusic":
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cite web}}
: Missing or empty |title=
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: Check date values in: |accessdate=
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: Cite journal requires |journal=
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(
help)I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 04:46, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
The citations for the Platinum in Argentina and the Gold in Norway are missing and should be replaced. -- 82.51.32.39 ( talk) 19:07, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
If someone could get the entire track listing with the Special Collectors Collection boxes back like before the modification of indopug. I don't understand the reason of indopug for removing the Special Collectors Collection boxes but these were pretty useful to get the original stuff from OK Computer. I'm not a professional to modify Wikipedia stuff (and they ask to get them back manually) so if someone more talented than me could get these 2 boxes back like before the modification of indopug, it would be nice... — Preceding unsigned comment added by MX140 ( talk • contribs) 03:04, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
Along with 25 other recordings, OK Computer has now been preserved by the LoC. Lugnuts Dick Laurent is dead 15:06, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
I wanted to take the space here to lay out a comprehensive rationale for keeping certain parts of the lead unchanged, in light of this edit and past similar revisions by User:Tjdrum2000, and the possibility of present and future disputes along these points. A lot is written here, and it is my wish that all editors refer to what I've written here before making certain changes to the lead, in consideration of this article's featured status and high-profile subject matter.
First, I want to say to User:Tjdrum2000 that I take your edits to be in good faith. I'm not reverting your edits out of any sense of ownership of the page or belief that you aren't making earnest, thoughtful attempts to improve the article. That said, this is a high-profile featured article which has undergone a long, multi-tiered process of scrutiny in drafting. I am also aware that there has been some prior discussion cautioning certain edits you've made to Radiohead-related articles. However, I have written this not just to respond to the specific changes you have made, but to state principles that should help you or anyone else considering certain kinds of changes to this article or any album article. There is a robust consensus underlying the current draft, and so many kinds of changes should require discussion and consensus. This is especially true of the lead, which is the summary and first part of the page that any reader sees.
I'm thinking here of genre in particular. The genre status of OK Computer, or many albums that take an innovative approach, is usually the subject of intense debate. Genre is not a categorical box, in or out, but a useful metaphor that develops through discussion of music in the aftermath of its release. Therefore, a few sources are not sufficient to say some release is, or is not, part of a genre. There is ample discussion of the genre debates around this album in the article. Alternative rock and art rock are broad and uncontroversial enough to serve as generic (ah, see? generic, genre) descriptors at the top. Progressive rock is often discussed in relation to this album, but the way it is discussed is fraught with hedging, comparison, etc., not simple and pat labeling, not to mention contrary commentary by the band, so it's an example of something worth treating in-depth as a facet of critical commentary but not in the lead or infobox.
I would similarly dispute your inclusion of "experimental rock," which is a narrow tendency in rock saddled with an unfortunately broad name. "Experimental rock" as such is avant-garde rock, and is best applied to an infobox or lead where the status as such is uncontroversial the same way there are no central disputes that OK Computer counts as alternative rock. It's worth remembering that "experimental" taken separately is a common adjective in music journalism and its use in conjunction with the word "rock" does not mean the source is labeling something experimental rock. As a matter of fact, experimentalism is a commonly understood aspect of what defines "art rock", which is again, more broadly appropriate. And remember: even if a source labeled OK Computer "experimental rock" in a straightforward, uncomplicated way, a single source would still not suffice for inclusion in the lead or infobox. Not all "rock that is experimental" or "rock where the musicians conducted ambitious experiments with their sound" is "experimental rock" as such; Trout Mask Replica is "Experimental Rock", OK Computer is not (or rather, is rock that is experimental).
This distinction even bears out in careful reading of the two sources you've chosen that happen to contain the phrase "experimental rock". The first source refers to the album as an "experimental rock blockbuster" — I would read this, frankly, as "a rock blockbuster that has experimental features" rather than "a blockbuster of avant-garde rock". The second use of the phrase in that source calls the album the "last truly experimental rock release to be embraced by a worldwide audience of millions". Notice the adverb! The "last truly experimental rock release" is different than the "last truly experimental rock release" — I doubt very much that the writer would have chosen such an awkward construction to make an argument about inclusion within a specific historical category of rock, but rather, is merely saying that the release's popularity is surprising in relation to its "experimental" (broadly understood) traits within the rock idiom. The same goes for your second source's use of the words: "OK Computer marks the grounding for their deviation into more experimental rock than ... The Bends." If a source said something like, say, "with their avant-garde album OK Computer, Radiohead tapped into the rich experimental rock tradition forged by the likes of outré rockers Captain Beefheart, Frank Zappa, the Velvet Underground, Can, Julian Cope, and others," that would be one thing, and depending on the context of publication it may even merit inclusion in the article body. But consider that such a source would still be so marginal and unsupported relative to the bulk of literature on the album, such an outlier, not to mention so unrelated to the band's own stated influences, that its use to affix the label "experimental rock" on the album would be wholly unuseful.The rest of my concerns are other wording changes you've made to the lead that have little to no basis in sources, usefulness to the reader, or clear rationale.
I urge you to please consider these factors and reply here before making any further changes along these lines. Dozens of human beings have devoted hundreds of volunteer hours over years, in common purpose and cooperation, to think through these issues, to pore over the existing source material and to think critically about the Wikipedia community's standards, to give shape to this article the way it is today. I hope you can see why I reserved the reasons for my decision to revert for the talk page — I really did want to treat these issues in depth due to their complexity and the thought process guiding this article, undergone with feedback by many, many editors in procedural reviews, and with full and considered respect to your earnest attempt to improve the page. Thank you for your time. — Brandt Luke Zorn ( talk) 20:52, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
I think we should restore the tracklist section of the version of the article that passed FAC:
Just noticed something I hadn't before: at some time between around 2013–2014, someone changed the sales figure in the lead to "eight million" (and worldwide sales in the release section to "3", when the source says 4.5). I went to see if anything backed that up, or if there are other reliable recent global sales figures. Didn't find any newer reliable global sales. Strangely, the only two sources I could find ( here and here) that say "eight million" are both from 2015 — after the unsourced edit to the lead. I think a raccoon has become an aardvark. Unless a better source comes along, we've got to avoid any circular reporting and keep it at 4.5 million, which so far as I can tell is the last genuinely trustworthy sales figure (Billboard citing the label, not a blog post citing nothing). — BLZ · talk 06:33, 27 September 2016 (UTC)
I'm conflicted as to how to refer to the reissue as. Most people call it OKNOTOK, however it's referred to by Radiohead on its website and in the MP3 tags by the looks of things as OK Computer OKNOTOK 1997 2017. Should we change it accordingly? Also I'm wondering what people's thoughts are on making an infobox for it? -- TheBronzeMex ( talk) 11:15, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
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OKNOTOK has generated a lot of press coverage, including lots of reviews. I guess the reviews should be added to the article, but part of me wonders if there's enough material to warrant a dedicated article just for the reissue. I'm really not sure, though - do we ever do that? Popcornduff ( talk) 07:39, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
The current cover for OKNOTOK in the article is that burnt one, but is that really the cover for the digital release? On the official website, this cover doesn't appear for the digital release (nor for any other one). I saw this image on the email that was sent from wasteheadquarters.com but that's it. Any source that this is considered the official cover? Laurent ( talk) 15:01, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
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Radiohead is on record as saying the album is not a concept album. The reason they have repeatedly made statements like this is that many observers call it a concept album. Since Wikipedia is built on WP:SECONDARY sources, we should tell the reader that this is a concept album, citing the highest available sources. And then we should tell the reader that Radiohead believe it is not a concept album. Because secondary sources define a topic. Primary sources are interesting to the reader, but in this case they are not definitive. Binksternet ( talk) 22:19, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
https://rateyourmusic.com/customchart?page=1&chart_type=top&type=album&year=alltime&genre_include=1&include_child_genres=1&genres=&include_child_genres_chk=1&include=both&origin_countries=&limit=none&countries= OK Computer is the most highly rated album on the rating/review site RateYourMusic, going even above The Dark Side Of The Moon by Pink Floyd. Is this worth dedicating a sentence to in the "Reception" or "Legacy" section? 178.220.205.99 ( talk) 22:54, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
@ Brandt Luke Zorn: Do the sales figures for OKC here include the OKNOTOK reissue? Should they? Popcornduff ( talk) 23:41, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
"That total[1,579,415]
includes 25,808 sales (1,459 from streams) in the latest frame, which see the album—newly remastered and expanded across a number of editions–re-enter the chart at No. 2. 8,987 of the album's sales last week were on vinyl, earning it pole position on the vinyl albums chart. Radiohead's most recent album, 2016 release A Moon Shaped Pool, also re-enters the chart after Glastonbury (No. 45, 2,146 sales)."
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
I think that using an all-encompassing term like alternative rock for this record simply because it is easy to do so is somewhat lazy and inaccurate. Ok Computer is clearly the point at which Radiohead started transitioning into the experimental and unconventional band it is today. I think that Rolling Stone's characterization at the time of this record as art rock is a very strong validation of the point I'm trying to make. That being the case, I think it's more accurate to include something beyond just 'alternative rock,' seeing as how it's being cited from one the world's most popular music magazines. Mlillybaltimore ( talk) 15:18, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
Did you not read the Rolling Stone review? It very clearly describes the record as 'an art rock tour de force.' Rolling Stone meets Wikipedia's standards for reliability. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mlillybaltimore ( talk • contribs) 16:41, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
Just because you don't agree with the characterization doesn't mean that you can randomly delete sources considered reliable by wikipedia's standards. If you want to delete a reliable source, you need to at least replace it with a different reliable source. But the bottom line is that removing a citation from one of the biggest and most respected music journalism publications in the world just because you personally disagree with it is borderline vandalism. If you want to include a tenuous genre characterization, then find a source to back it up and put it on the page...don't randomly delete a perfectly acceptable citation. Mlillybaltimore ( talk) 03:05, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
In a case like this where there is clearly a dispute regarding a genre, the easiest and most neutral way to resolve it is for people to simply provide a citation from a reliable third party source. I'll propose the following compromise: If either of you can find a reliable third party source that calls this record alternative rock, that also somehow is more acceptable to you than a review from one of the world's biggest music magazines (which you will have to explain), then please post it and I will cease adding the Rolling Stone article. But if you take the time to review Wikipedia's own guidelines, you'll see that my citation meets those guidelines. You're relying on conventional, popular OPINION as the basis for the argument you're making, whereas I'm providing a cited reference. Asking that you provide at least one single source that meets your own standards should not be too much to ask. Find the source and I will let this go. Mlillybaltimore ( talk) 14:20, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
Those are all listed under 'style,' not 'genre.' Alternative rock is also not listed in the text of the review. I don't know where you stand on the merits of allmusic.com vs. Rolling Stone, but the discussion would need to take place as to why one is more reliable than the other. Rolling Stone album reviews are cited on numerous Wikipedia pages, as are allmusic.com Mlillybaltimore ( talk) 15:15, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
Works for me. Wesley? Brandt? Mlillybaltimore ( talk) 15:32, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
As I've said multiple times, the way Wikipedia works is that you have to provide verifiable and reliable citations. You don't just lazily throw up an unverified and uncited claim just because that is easier to do so and because it is your subjective opinion. If it's so painfully obvious that this record is in the genre alternative rock, it shouldn't be hard to find a reliable source to include with this article. Again, all someone has to do is cite a verifiable source that meets Wikipedia's standards for reliability, and this matter can be put to rest. Mlillybaltimore ( talk) 14:11, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
Adding a reference that meets Wikipedia's standards is not subjective. And if it is, it is certainly much less objective than demanding that something remain in an article with no citation at all. This whole thing started because I cited a review from Rolling Stone characterizing the album as art rock that some people took issue with, and insisted on reverting the infobox to alternative rock only, but with absolutely no verifiable or reliable sources to go along with it (which goes runs completely counter to Wikipedia's guidelines). I still stand by my argument that if it is so important to some parties that art rock goes, and alternative rock stays, there needs to be at least one citation to go along with it. I'm perfectly happy leaving both though if everyone can agree on it. I think a fair trade is that the majority alternative rock crowd gets to leave that genre in the infobox uncited, and the minority art rock crowd gets to leave the Rolling Stone review as an acceptable part of the article. Mlillybaltimore ( talk) 19:09, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
Well than find a source calling the record alternative rock that is perfectly acceptable based on those standards. If you can't do that, then this whole argument is pointless. Mlillybaltimore ( talk) 21:17, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
OK, here goes:
I could go on. Again, this is a fact that can be taken for granted. I know you say Wikipedia doesn't work that way, and to a degree you're correct. However, this is more or less like someone on George Washington's page calling him a king because they found a reliable source that says something like, say, "George Washington acted more like a king then a president", then insisting on other editors to find sources that show Washington was a president. The Rolling Stone source, though reliable, is problematic. Numerous, countless, sources can be found to show OK Computer is alternative rock. -- Brandt Luke Zorn ( talk) 00:43, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
That's awesome, but only one of those sources meets Wikipedia's standards for being verifiable, and you offer nothing in the way of saying why The Onion is a more valid source than Rolling Stone. The Onion is not primarily a music review and journalism publication; Rolling Stone is. The Allmusic entry lists the style of OK Computer as alternative rock, not the genre. There's a link right at the bottom of this box that shows what counts as being verifiable or not, and only the last thing that you list qualifies as meeting those standards within the scope of that description. Again, even though some of you don't agree with the Rolling Stone piece doesn't mean that it doesn't meet Wikipedia's standards. Let's leave both and be done with it. Mlillybaltimore ( talk) 01:28, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
And don't say that this or that 'is more or less like' anything. Wikipedia has very clear standards when it comes to verifiable and reliable sources. Nothing you listed above meets that threshold. In the analogy you used above, it would be extremely easy to find a reliable and verifiable source calling Washington a president. Nothing to date has been cited calling OK Computer alternative rock that meets Wikipedia's standards. Mlillybaltimore ( talk) 02:07, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
Absolutely not. The AV Club is part of the Onion, don't pretend that it is not. And in any case, that source never calls the album alternative rock, and YOU have not made the case that Rolling Stone is a less reliable source than what you provided. Tell me the exact quotation where it does. You still have not provided a verifiable and reliable source backing up your assertion, where as I have. Include a source that meets Wikipedia's standards. Mlillybaltimore ( talk) 03:22, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
It has NOT been backed up by reliable and verifiable sources. You need to provide citations that meet Wikipedia's standards to have a leg to stand on here. Mlillybaltimore ( talk) 03:26, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
"The AV Club is part of the Onion, don't pretend that it is not." Wrong, and it makes me feel like you're trolling.
"YOU have not made the case that Rolling Stone is a less reliable source than what you provided." Wrong. This is why I keep reiterating the problem with the RS source that you have not addressed. So, I quote again: What WesleyDodds said earlier about the Rolling Stone source still applies: "The citation is not 'perfectly acceptable' because it relies on a passing phrase that can't even be specifically tied to the genre." You still have not responded to that. Your actions have become borderline disruptive and I would strongly advise that you do not revert the page again. -- Brandt Luke Zorn ( talk) 18:35, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
This is an absolutely flawless article. I see nothing against it to get around to making it an FA candidate. Sir Richardson ( talk) 19:41, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
I wish they'd stop deleting Radiohead articles, it makes Radiohead look bad by saying "this song that's on a best of charted isn't important enough to have an article." I mean I'm still annoyed that my You and Whose Army article was deleted... Why can't we add information and not destroy it? If I was were you I'd try bringing it back, but don't be surprised if they pointless picky admins delete it. -- Mrmoustache14 ( talk) 04:24, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
On The Bends article "Bones" and "The Bends" were shown as promotional singles and Lucky was one as well so why isn't it listed on the OK Computer singles lists. It was more popular than "Bones" and "The Bends" and it had a music video. — Preceding unsigned comment added by -- Mrmoustache14 ( talk) 16:28, 24 August 2012 (UTC) Mrmoustache14 ( talk • contribs) 16:20, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
WP is an encyclopedia, not a fansite, and we have guidelines against this sort of thing (see above), which is why I removed it. "In subsequent years, the album has been frequently cited by critics as one of the greatest albums ever recorded" - what does it mean? How frequently? Cited by which critics? Greatest album ever recorded, including every jazz, black metal and grime album? Do you know how many pages make that claim about "described/cited as one of the best albums ever" and how it easy it is to find one or two reviews or listener polls where a hyperventilating music critic or random self-selecting electorate has claimed as much for most albums at one time or other? Simply saying it is reflected in the body, or that we're not explicitly claiming it is one of the greatest albums, doesn't cut it. You're lucky the equally cringe-worthy "predicted the album was epochal" was not struck out as well. There's plenty of note for the album's reputation without having this hyperbole. N-HH talk/ edits 09:05, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
Not that it's necessarily considered to be a reliable source by Wiki, but Acclaimed Music's aggregate (which pointly only considered non-genre-specific critics' lists by notable publishers) does indeed rank OK Computer as one of the most acclaimed albums of all time, of any genre. Offhand, I believe it's in the top 20. The acclaim for this album isn't limited to alt/indie or even rock circles. WesleyDodds ( talk) 22:27, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
Agreed. I don't thing it's too "fan-site" at all to add the Acclaimed Music aggregate to the list. There's a page for it here, which means it obviously passes on notability. In addition, it does not count the lists of any fan or reader who hasn't studied much rock history. Relying on AM for an idea of the most well-received albums is relying on a highly reliable source. Can we add that back? Novice listeners who don't want to look at all these different lists at once will then have a good idea of how well-received it is by the professionals. AndrewOne ( talk) 19:54, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
Sorry, but "OK Computer received considerable acclaim upon release. Prominent British and American rock critics predicted the album would have far-reaching cultural impact. In subsequent years, the album has been cited by listeners, critics, and musicians as one of the greatest albums of all time" is all a bit hyperbolic, per the above comments. Not least because if one actually goes into the body, actually there are plenty of critical views cited. Equally, I can't see anything about "far reaching cultural impact". And as for "cited by ..", one has to ask which "listeners, critics, and musicians" as well as noting that most of the polls are for albums "of the 1990s" not "of all time". Even allowing for the transience of such things, and the fact that WP is an encyclopedia not a piece of music journalism, the only quoted "of all time" poll, the Rolling Stone 2003 poll, has it down at no 162. Could we look at toning this down or qualifying it again, at least a bit? We're going to reach a point where every album's WP page tells us that it is "critically lauded", "a landmark" or "the greatest ever". If you look hard enough in the archives of music journalism you can find justification for that kind of description for anything. N-HH talk/ edits 10:18, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of OK Computer's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "allmusic":
{{
cite web}}
: Missing or empty |title=
(
help){{
cite web}}
: Check date values in: |accessdate=
(
help){{
cite journal}}
: Cite journal requires |journal=
(
help){{
cite web}}
: Check date values in: |accessdate=
(
help)I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 04:46, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
The citations for the Platinum in Argentina and the Gold in Norway are missing and should be replaced. -- 82.51.32.39 ( talk) 19:07, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
If someone could get the entire track listing with the Special Collectors Collection boxes back like before the modification of indopug. I don't understand the reason of indopug for removing the Special Collectors Collection boxes but these were pretty useful to get the original stuff from OK Computer. I'm not a professional to modify Wikipedia stuff (and they ask to get them back manually) so if someone more talented than me could get these 2 boxes back like before the modification of indopug, it would be nice... — Preceding unsigned comment added by MX140 ( talk • contribs) 03:04, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
Along with 25 other recordings, OK Computer has now been preserved by the LoC. Lugnuts Dick Laurent is dead 15:06, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
I wanted to take the space here to lay out a comprehensive rationale for keeping certain parts of the lead unchanged, in light of this edit and past similar revisions by User:Tjdrum2000, and the possibility of present and future disputes along these points. A lot is written here, and it is my wish that all editors refer to what I've written here before making certain changes to the lead, in consideration of this article's featured status and high-profile subject matter.
First, I want to say to User:Tjdrum2000 that I take your edits to be in good faith. I'm not reverting your edits out of any sense of ownership of the page or belief that you aren't making earnest, thoughtful attempts to improve the article. That said, this is a high-profile featured article which has undergone a long, multi-tiered process of scrutiny in drafting. I am also aware that there has been some prior discussion cautioning certain edits you've made to Radiohead-related articles. However, I have written this not just to respond to the specific changes you have made, but to state principles that should help you or anyone else considering certain kinds of changes to this article or any album article. There is a robust consensus underlying the current draft, and so many kinds of changes should require discussion and consensus. This is especially true of the lead, which is the summary and first part of the page that any reader sees.
I'm thinking here of genre in particular. The genre status of OK Computer, or many albums that take an innovative approach, is usually the subject of intense debate. Genre is not a categorical box, in or out, but a useful metaphor that develops through discussion of music in the aftermath of its release. Therefore, a few sources are not sufficient to say some release is, or is not, part of a genre. There is ample discussion of the genre debates around this album in the article. Alternative rock and art rock are broad and uncontroversial enough to serve as generic (ah, see? generic, genre) descriptors at the top. Progressive rock is often discussed in relation to this album, but the way it is discussed is fraught with hedging, comparison, etc., not simple and pat labeling, not to mention contrary commentary by the band, so it's an example of something worth treating in-depth as a facet of critical commentary but not in the lead or infobox.
I would similarly dispute your inclusion of "experimental rock," which is a narrow tendency in rock saddled with an unfortunately broad name. "Experimental rock" as such is avant-garde rock, and is best applied to an infobox or lead where the status as such is uncontroversial the same way there are no central disputes that OK Computer counts as alternative rock. It's worth remembering that "experimental" taken separately is a common adjective in music journalism and its use in conjunction with the word "rock" does not mean the source is labeling something experimental rock. As a matter of fact, experimentalism is a commonly understood aspect of what defines "art rock", which is again, more broadly appropriate. And remember: even if a source labeled OK Computer "experimental rock" in a straightforward, uncomplicated way, a single source would still not suffice for inclusion in the lead or infobox. Not all "rock that is experimental" or "rock where the musicians conducted ambitious experiments with their sound" is "experimental rock" as such; Trout Mask Replica is "Experimental Rock", OK Computer is not (or rather, is rock that is experimental).
This distinction even bears out in careful reading of the two sources you've chosen that happen to contain the phrase "experimental rock". The first source refers to the album as an "experimental rock blockbuster" — I would read this, frankly, as "a rock blockbuster that has experimental features" rather than "a blockbuster of avant-garde rock". The second use of the phrase in that source calls the album the "last truly experimental rock release to be embraced by a worldwide audience of millions". Notice the adverb! The "last truly experimental rock release" is different than the "last truly experimental rock release" — I doubt very much that the writer would have chosen such an awkward construction to make an argument about inclusion within a specific historical category of rock, but rather, is merely saying that the release's popularity is surprising in relation to its "experimental" (broadly understood) traits within the rock idiom. The same goes for your second source's use of the words: "OK Computer marks the grounding for their deviation into more experimental rock than ... The Bends." If a source said something like, say, "with their avant-garde album OK Computer, Radiohead tapped into the rich experimental rock tradition forged by the likes of outré rockers Captain Beefheart, Frank Zappa, the Velvet Underground, Can, Julian Cope, and others," that would be one thing, and depending on the context of publication it may even merit inclusion in the article body. But consider that such a source would still be so marginal and unsupported relative to the bulk of literature on the album, such an outlier, not to mention so unrelated to the band's own stated influences, that its use to affix the label "experimental rock" on the album would be wholly unuseful.The rest of my concerns are other wording changes you've made to the lead that have little to no basis in sources, usefulness to the reader, or clear rationale.
I urge you to please consider these factors and reply here before making any further changes along these lines. Dozens of human beings have devoted hundreds of volunteer hours over years, in common purpose and cooperation, to think through these issues, to pore over the existing source material and to think critically about the Wikipedia community's standards, to give shape to this article the way it is today. I hope you can see why I reserved the reasons for my decision to revert for the talk page — I really did want to treat these issues in depth due to their complexity and the thought process guiding this article, undergone with feedback by many, many editors in procedural reviews, and with full and considered respect to your earnest attempt to improve the page. Thank you for your time. — Brandt Luke Zorn ( talk) 20:52, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
I think we should restore the tracklist section of the version of the article that passed FAC:
Just noticed something I hadn't before: at some time between around 2013–2014, someone changed the sales figure in the lead to "eight million" (and worldwide sales in the release section to "3", when the source says 4.5). I went to see if anything backed that up, or if there are other reliable recent global sales figures. Didn't find any newer reliable global sales. Strangely, the only two sources I could find ( here and here) that say "eight million" are both from 2015 — after the unsourced edit to the lead. I think a raccoon has become an aardvark. Unless a better source comes along, we've got to avoid any circular reporting and keep it at 4.5 million, which so far as I can tell is the last genuinely trustworthy sales figure (Billboard citing the label, not a blog post citing nothing). — BLZ · talk 06:33, 27 September 2016 (UTC)
I'm conflicted as to how to refer to the reissue as. Most people call it OKNOTOK, however it's referred to by Radiohead on its website and in the MP3 tags by the looks of things as OK Computer OKNOTOK 1997 2017. Should we change it accordingly? Also I'm wondering what people's thoughts are on making an infobox for it? -- TheBronzeMex ( talk) 11:15, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
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OKNOTOK has generated a lot of press coverage, including lots of reviews. I guess the reviews should be added to the article, but part of me wonders if there's enough material to warrant a dedicated article just for the reissue. I'm really not sure, though - do we ever do that? Popcornduff ( talk) 07:39, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
The current cover for OKNOTOK in the article is that burnt one, but is that really the cover for the digital release? On the official website, this cover doesn't appear for the digital release (nor for any other one). I saw this image on the email that was sent from wasteheadquarters.com but that's it. Any source that this is considered the official cover? Laurent ( talk) 15:01, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
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Radiohead is on record as saying the album is not a concept album. The reason they have repeatedly made statements like this is that many observers call it a concept album. Since Wikipedia is built on WP:SECONDARY sources, we should tell the reader that this is a concept album, citing the highest available sources. And then we should tell the reader that Radiohead believe it is not a concept album. Because secondary sources define a topic. Primary sources are interesting to the reader, but in this case they are not definitive. Binksternet ( talk) 22:19, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
https://rateyourmusic.com/customchart?page=1&chart_type=top&type=album&year=alltime&genre_include=1&include_child_genres=1&genres=&include_child_genres_chk=1&include=both&origin_countries=&limit=none&countries= OK Computer is the most highly rated album on the rating/review site RateYourMusic, going even above The Dark Side Of The Moon by Pink Floyd. Is this worth dedicating a sentence to in the "Reception" or "Legacy" section? 178.220.205.99 ( talk) 22:54, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
@ Brandt Luke Zorn: Do the sales figures for OKC here include the OKNOTOK reissue? Should they? Popcornduff ( talk) 23:41, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
"That total[1,579,415]
includes 25,808 sales (1,459 from streams) in the latest frame, which see the album—newly remastered and expanded across a number of editions–re-enter the chart at No. 2. 8,987 of the album's sales last week were on vinyl, earning it pole position on the vinyl albums chart. Radiohead's most recent album, 2016 release A Moon Shaped Pool, also re-enters the chart after Glastonbury (No. 45, 2,146 sales)."