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I changed the openning sentence in the section Historical outline which was : "After the split of the First Turkic Kaganate in 604, following the Ili river treaty,..." As seen in the cited link, Ili river treaty was in 638 and it had nothing to do with the split of the First Kaganate. In fact by 638, the Eastern wing was already under Chinese yoke and the treaty was between the tribes witin Western Wing. Nedim Ardoğa ( talk) 09:52, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
There are two sentences which may be contradictory:In the introduction it is claimed that Nushibi (Nu-shibi, Chinese 弩失畢) was a collective name for five tribes of the right (western) wing . In the third sentence it is claimed that The Nushibi tribes occupied the lands of the Western Turkic Kaganate east of the river Ili. Ili River is in the east of Kazakhstan. If Nushibi occupied east of Ili river the rivals are even more in the east. Then who settled in the west of Ili River (İ.e., modern West Turkestan) I think one of the above sentences needs to be revised. Nedim Ardoğa ( talk) 14:58, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
Ogur | Ogur | Ethnicons | Oguz | Oguz | Ethnicons |
---|---|---|---|---|---|
Utra | front, opposite half, wing, ulus | Utragur > Uturgur | Tolis | eastern (left) half, wing, ulus | Tolis |
Köturi | behind, westward, western half, wing, ulus | Köturgur > Kutrigur | Tardush | western (right) half, wing, ulus | Tardush, Tardu-Khan |
Otra | middle half, wing, ulus | Otragur > Uturgur | Otra | middle, center | Urta, orda > horde |
Dulo is Bulgarian ruling dynasty of Hunnic origin. Dulu are the colective name of the five tribes of the Western Turks. What is the connection between them, except that the two words ( or their modern forms) have similar sounding?
Given the MC forms of Dulu, it is highly unlikely that it has any association with the ruling clan of the Bulğars, the Dulo (Доуло) of Qubrat, the founder of ―Magna Bulgaria,‖ noted in the Bulgarian Prince List. This was suggested by Artamonov, 2002: 180-181 (notions largely prompted by L.N. Gumilëv as noted in Artamonov‘s footnotes and implied in Gumilëv,1967 ....
All of this (association ) is highly speculative.
file:///G:/oq-and-ogur.pdf footnote 37
Tongdian Vol. 199 lists five Nushibi tribes: Axijie (sub-divided into two), Geshu (again sub-divided, one Geshu sub-tribe affiliating themselves with Chuban), & Basegan. Ashide & Alishi were not included within that list, Tuqishi-Heluoshi (Turgesh-Halach) & Chumuhun were listed as Duolo tribes, and Chuban Turks were found in both Duolo (with Shunishi) & Nushipi (with Geshu). For consistency's sake, I will delete the materials which contradict primary Chinese sources. Erminwin ( talk) 08:09, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
Are we sure these two are the same? Beshogur ( talk) 20:57, 17 September 2020 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Nushibi article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||
|
I changed the openning sentence in the section Historical outline which was : "After the split of the First Turkic Kaganate in 604, following the Ili river treaty,..." As seen in the cited link, Ili river treaty was in 638 and it had nothing to do with the split of the First Kaganate. In fact by 638, the Eastern wing was already under Chinese yoke and the treaty was between the tribes witin Western Wing. Nedim Ardoğa ( talk) 09:52, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
There are two sentences which may be contradictory:In the introduction it is claimed that Nushibi (Nu-shibi, Chinese 弩失畢) was a collective name for five tribes of the right (western) wing . In the third sentence it is claimed that The Nushibi tribes occupied the lands of the Western Turkic Kaganate east of the river Ili. Ili River is in the east of Kazakhstan. If Nushibi occupied east of Ili river the rivals are even more in the east. Then who settled in the west of Ili River (İ.e., modern West Turkestan) I think one of the above sentences needs to be revised. Nedim Ardoğa ( talk) 14:58, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
Ogur | Ogur | Ethnicons | Oguz | Oguz | Ethnicons |
---|---|---|---|---|---|
Utra | front, opposite half, wing, ulus | Utragur > Uturgur | Tolis | eastern (left) half, wing, ulus | Tolis |
Köturi | behind, westward, western half, wing, ulus | Köturgur > Kutrigur | Tardush | western (right) half, wing, ulus | Tardush, Tardu-Khan |
Otra | middle half, wing, ulus | Otragur > Uturgur | Otra | middle, center | Urta, orda > horde |
Dulo is Bulgarian ruling dynasty of Hunnic origin. Dulu are the colective name of the five tribes of the Western Turks. What is the connection between them, except that the two words ( or their modern forms) have similar sounding?
Given the MC forms of Dulu, it is highly unlikely that it has any association with the ruling clan of the Bulğars, the Dulo (Доуло) of Qubrat, the founder of ―Magna Bulgaria,‖ noted in the Bulgarian Prince List. This was suggested by Artamonov, 2002: 180-181 (notions largely prompted by L.N. Gumilëv as noted in Artamonov‘s footnotes and implied in Gumilëv,1967 ....
All of this (association ) is highly speculative.
file:///G:/oq-and-ogur.pdf footnote 37
Tongdian Vol. 199 lists five Nushibi tribes: Axijie (sub-divided into two), Geshu (again sub-divided, one Geshu sub-tribe affiliating themselves with Chuban), & Basegan. Ashide & Alishi were not included within that list, Tuqishi-Heluoshi (Turgesh-Halach) & Chumuhun were listed as Duolo tribes, and Chuban Turks were found in both Duolo (with Shunishi) & Nushipi (with Geshu). For consistency's sake, I will delete the materials which contradict primary Chinese sources. Erminwin ( talk) 08:09, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
Are we sure these two are the same? Beshogur ( talk) 20:57, 17 September 2020 (UTC)