The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Just a quick heads-up that I've been told offwiki Luna doesn't have internet access for the next few days, but will be able to resume the reviews after.
Vaticidalprophet16:02, 27 August 2023 (UTC)reply
I think it would be interesting, if possible, to add some short sentences on the definition of nude in other places. For instance, in the Nordics a person is generally not considered naked until they are stark naked, whereas in most of the United States one is often considered naked when not being properly dressed.
Can a date or date range be added to Mesopotamia and the Middle Kingdom of Egypt (like New Kingdom of Egypt?).
The periods before the New Kingdom are more archeological than historical, so similarly precise date ranges are not applicable. Also, I am summarizing a great deal of information with the details in the History of nudity article.--
WriterArtistDC (
talk)
02:56, 28 August 2023 (UTC)reply
Wikilink barefoot (relevant enough to an article about nudity).
Curious, did ancient Greece have any noteworthy opinions regarding female nudity?
Very little, it was a patriarchal society that valued masculinity. Only Aphrodite was sculpted nude, and only in Sparta did women participate in rituals and sports, often not fully nude as men were.--
WriterArtistDC (
talk)
02:56, 28 August 2023 (UTC)reply
"they also frequented" – specify if this refers to the working population or women.
Rewording: "Lacking baths in their homes, everyone frequented public bathhouses where they were unclothed together."
"A law was established" – do we have a date for this and what did the law stipulate in particular?
Added subsections for each country in Asia, sorted alphabetically, and paragraph breaks for Japan. This should clarify that the law was established in the Meiji period. Don't think law was specific, just gave police the authority to fine anyone being "disorderly" in dress as well as behavior.--
WriterArtistDC (
talk)
02:56, 28 August 2023 (UTC)reply
Psychology Today is generally not reliable for psychology-related topics (despite its name), so I would remove that sentence. Also, it seems slightly out of place there regardless IMO.
"and death" – death is not mentioned elsewhere in this paragraph, nor do I believe dying is related to either punishment, humiliation or degradation.
The paragraph beginning with "Many of the negative associations..." is listing the categories of associations, one of which is "Nudity and Death" (Barcan 2004a, p.116). Perhaps too terse, I could clarify.--
WriterArtistDC (
talk)
01:34, 10 September 2023 (UTC)reply
I have re-written the paragraph, and added specific page citations. I hope this is not taken as too much from a single source. I could go back to citing the entire 32 page book section at the end.--
WriterArtistDC (
talk)
16:21, 11 September 2023 (UTC)reply
IMO the sentence starting "Those that adopt naturism later in life …" reads like an advocacy for it.
For personal elaboration, "Dutch men were more open to the idea of gender equality" is saying that the Netherlands was more open to gender equality in general as opposed to the United States, rather than in relation to nudity specifically?
It is difficult to convey the ideas in the source without too
closely paraphrasing. Her premise is that mixed-gender nudity, particularly in childhood, was part of the Dutch being more sex-positive (less puritanical) than the US, which resulted in greater success in promoting gender equality generally. However, there is no attribution of causation, more social evolution. I will go back to the source and think about making it clearer without crossing the line into OR.--
WriterArtistDC (
talk)
05:24, 10 September 2023 (UTC)reply
The second paragraph in § Female nudity is too short and also related enough to the first paragraph to be merged into it instead of being standalone.
I am pondering removing the reference to high fashion, which is separate because what designers claim as empowerment has little to do with the everyday experiences of women.--
WriterArtistDC (
talk)
14:57, 10 September 2023 (UTC)reply
The continuity and wording of the paragraph starting "Survey research was done in Australia" reads quite out of place for me.
Its from an psychological research paper, so the language is what I am used to reading. Since a single survey is primary research, and now 29 years old, I have deleted it. It was only there to have something from outside the US, I will look for another source.
Are there any key arguments or criticisms against the idea of topfreedom that could be mentioned?
In one sentence you write "The general advice for caregivers" and the next opens with "Parents and caregivers"; does "The general advice for caregivers is to find ways of setting boundaries without giving the child a sense of shame" refer to only caregivers and not parents whereas the next sentence does? Otherwise I would perhaps use "parent or guardian" or a similar term(s) to avoid any confusion.
Relatedly, the sentence commencing with "Parents and caregivers need to understand that a child's explorations …" has an argumentative and fairly non-encyclopaedic tone.
I have reorganized this section into two paragraphs, the first uses citations from the US, the second from Northern Europe (a minimal effort to globalize, given the lack of sources available). In the first paragraph, I have kept the initial sentence that is citing a report addressed to parents, while adding a sentence to clarify that the second source is from an article that talks about daycare, addressing only caregivers.
The second paragraph combines the European citations, including the citation from Bonny Rough, and attributes it to the author while toning down her advocacy. I hope that the observations that the US could benefit by learning from Northern Europe are not "unencyclopedic", since many child professionals say generally the same.
"parks, sidewalks, roads" – "and roads" for consistency with the rest of the article. Done
Pedantry but I reckon "In the absence of visual barriers to being seen without clothes" can be shortened to just "In the absence of visual barriers" given the prior context of the section and this article. Done
"As a participant stated" – a participant of? Open water swimming
"continental Europe conceive of privacy" – is conceive the right word here? Being archaic again, changed to "think"
In § Private nudity, I would wikilink consumerism. Done
I would rephrase the word order of "Individuals vary regarding being comfortable nude in situations that are private" which feels out of place in comparison with your other sentences written like this, which do not feel that way. > "Individuals vary in their comfort with being nude in private."
Wikilink ABC News and USA Today. Done Also:
Instances of % should be changed to "percent" (or per cent) per
MOS:%. Done for all (search and replace)
"which is 15% lower" – here as well.
I would rephrase "classic examples" to sound more formal. > exemplars
"they eventually include separate steam" – should be "included". Done
In § Changing rooms and showers, was nudity in women's locker rooms the same as it was for men's locker rooms in the 20th century? I mention the generational change for women at the end. Its all I can say given the citations available.
I would remove the quotation marks from
art model. Done
"Saint-Tropez to Sardinia" – specify the countries here for unfamiliar readers. Done
The percentage symbols in the sentence starting "In a 2014 survey" should be changed to "percent" per above. Done
"is only symbolic (glass beads)" – does this mean they get "paid" in glass beads? I would make this explicitly clearer if so.
Revision: "While many celebrations of Carnival worldwide include minimal costumes, in the
French Quarter flashing references its history as a "
red-light district", a sexual performance earning a symbolic payment of glass beads."
I think it is worth briefly mentioning streaking's popularity at sporting events.
I don't think there is an RS to support popularity vs. random acts by individuals. The linked article has plenty of instances of the latter.
"police say" reads too much like the title of a news article. Removed
Does "South Africa" mean the country or the region? The region is usually written as Southern Africa to avoid confusion. Done
The last paragraph of § Nudity as protest is not cited.
There are so many wikilinks, citations seemed redundant, but I can pull some in.
"In a picture-making civilization" – is there a commonly-used word that can perhaps be used here as an alternative to 'picture-making'? It just seems rare.
It is the language from the book cited, which I will again have to go to the library to consult.
The image captioned Attic Kylix, c. 470 BCE depicts sex rather than nudity, no? At least from reading the tone of this section it does not compare sex and nudity, and this image is not associated with a performance either.
In the opening paragraph, a distinction is made:
In Western societies, the contexts for depictions of nudity include information, art and pornography. Any ambiguous image not easily fitting into one of these categories may be misinterpreted, leading to disputes.
This image illustrates a constant dispute: art or porn? It does depict both nudity and graphic sex, but few would call it porn due to its antiquity and current home in a
museum.
Seeking to contextualize the Kylix image as erotic art rather than porn, the first reference I found went into greater detail about Ancient Greek sex practices than I had previously known, and I now consider this image to have been porn in its original context in symposia, so I will remove it and look for another image. This is not censorship, but based upon the Nudity article being primarily about contemporary life. In accordance with summary style there is only enough history here to give a sense of where current practices originated, while details are in the separate articles on the history and depictions of nudity.--
WriterArtistDC (
talk)
15:51, 22 September 2023 (UTC)reply
Perhaps the Hindu temple image will be seen in the same light as the Greek, but it is supported with what is likely the most cited academic book on the nude in art.--
WriterArtistDC (
talk)
17:22, 22 September 2023 (UTC)reply
Should be done for now but I might respond to some of your above comments (decided to do this after I finished the full review). Thanks again for your patience and the fast responses! ツLunaEatsTuna(
💬)—14:42, 19 September 2023 (UTC)reply
Nice work! I have just a few concerns left than all that is left for me is the spotcheck (gosh it will be irritating). I started uni during this review so it may take some time.. I am sorry I keep getting delayed.. anyhow:
Looking at other articles and GAs, Leary and Buttermore should still use their full names even if only mentioned once. While they often use only surnames in journals and other certain academic works, we do not do this on Wikipedia as last names generally imply that a reader is already familiar with said persons. OK
Re: Psyh Today, for me it would depend upon whether the particular author is a subject-matter expert. The author of the cited article is a Master of Fine Arts; do you think that qualifies them enough for her opinions regarding social nudity and its psychological benefits for women?
An MFA includes many specializations, but today likely includes some academic study of the role of culture in everyday life, which is exactly what this topic needs.--
WriterArtistDC (
talk)
16:38, 29 September 2023 (UTC)reply
"Go through stages during which they gradually learn a new set of values regarding the human body" is just a bit oddly phrased; I would remove the stages part (does every naturist really go through this?) and make it "… later in life gradually learn …" instead.
I will work on the wording of this passage, and would also like to show my appreciation for your input. Any writer should know that such input is essential to a product that can be read by others not sharing the same background. My background is such that many of the sources I cite seem perfectly clear to me, when they are opaque to most people. That is the reason for nominating articles for GA review, otherwise I get almost no substantial co-editing, only minor corrections.--
WriterArtistDC (
talk)
16:38, 29 September 2023 (UTC)reply
I have re-written the last paragraph of Moral ambiguity, pulling in citations already used in another part of the article, and naming the authors. The contrast between the psychological and sociological perspectives clarifies what I was trying to say using only the latter.
WriterArtistDC (
talk)
20:33, 29 September 2023 (UTC)reply
Everything else is good—pretty fascinating actually—too many to individually comment on but I really like your good judgment regarding removing and adding content and making changes; I am particularly fond of your changes to § Gender equality and the Asia section and company, the nudity and death additions are wonderful, and great work on improving and clearing up § Depictions and performance and your efforts to globalise the article. § Terminology would be cool to see but nothing to withhold GA status over so that can wait. And yes, it is surprising that barefoot communities exist and are really (perhaps a bit too) dedicated—but from what I could find their beliefs are supported by research and science behind it. (Also maybe Wikipedia has hyperobsessive foot fetishists who have greatly expanded said article). ツLunaEatsTuna(
💬)—15:36, 29 September 2023 (UTC)reply
I think these final points have been addressed.
Since this is a vital article (which I think should be level 3, not 4), we are apparently due some
brownie points, with you getting the most credit for slogging through in days what I have been working on since 2019. This is my fourth GA, but I have never done a review, and doubt if I could, certainly not for such a large article. Thanks again. -
WriterArtistDC (
talk)
01:16, 30 September 2023 (UTC)reply
Refs
Passes spotcheck on refs 8, 13, 26, 42, 57, 69, 86, 94, 102, 117, 118, 133, 148, 164, 180, 214 and 227. I found only four minor concerns:
On Ref 35, I did not seem to notice anything regarding the body ornament's non-verbal communications.
In summarizing the entire Introduction to the book cited (30+ pages), I use the term non-verbal communications for the many references to messages and meaning of clothing and nakedness. This is due to my familiarity with "messaging" in the humanities and social sciences, where it has a usage closer to implicit or non-verbal communications, so I thought that term would be clearer for the average reader.--
WriterArtistDC (
talk)
13:39, 10 October 2023 (UTC)reply
The first sentence of § Asia is uncited from the page layout changes.
When I reorganized the Asia section of Cultural differences into subsections, I added the introductory sentence as a summary with the implied support of several of following the citations, and using the term "face" to describe the motivation, although it is not used but conveys the meaning of "dignity and respect" in the Asian sources. Perhaps this crosses the line into OR (Synth). Attaching the Henry and Hansen citations to support the sentence would solve UNCITED but leave the OR problem with "face". I could to use "dignity and respect", but lose the more precise meaning of face, which I assume many Western readers understand. Would it be OR to put face, wikilinked, in parentheses after dignity and respect? Otherwise, I could remove the sentence, letting the subsection content to speak for itself. --
WriterArtistDC (
talk)
13:39, 10 October 2023 (UTC)reply
I would rephrase "are completely naked apart from a piece of string decorated with bird feathers tied to the end of their penises" for copyvio as it is very similar to the source.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Just a quick heads-up that I've been told offwiki Luna doesn't have internet access for the next few days, but will be able to resume the reviews after.
Vaticidalprophet16:02, 27 August 2023 (UTC)reply
I think it would be interesting, if possible, to add some short sentences on the definition of nude in other places. For instance, in the Nordics a person is generally not considered naked until they are stark naked, whereas in most of the United States one is often considered naked when not being properly dressed.
Can a date or date range be added to Mesopotamia and the Middle Kingdom of Egypt (like New Kingdom of Egypt?).
The periods before the New Kingdom are more archeological than historical, so similarly precise date ranges are not applicable. Also, I am summarizing a great deal of information with the details in the History of nudity article.--
WriterArtistDC (
talk)
02:56, 28 August 2023 (UTC)reply
Wikilink barefoot (relevant enough to an article about nudity).
Curious, did ancient Greece have any noteworthy opinions regarding female nudity?
Very little, it was a patriarchal society that valued masculinity. Only Aphrodite was sculpted nude, and only in Sparta did women participate in rituals and sports, often not fully nude as men were.--
WriterArtistDC (
talk)
02:56, 28 August 2023 (UTC)reply
"they also frequented" – specify if this refers to the working population or women.
Rewording: "Lacking baths in their homes, everyone frequented public bathhouses where they were unclothed together."
"A law was established" – do we have a date for this and what did the law stipulate in particular?
Added subsections for each country in Asia, sorted alphabetically, and paragraph breaks for Japan. This should clarify that the law was established in the Meiji period. Don't think law was specific, just gave police the authority to fine anyone being "disorderly" in dress as well as behavior.--
WriterArtistDC (
talk)
02:56, 28 August 2023 (UTC)reply
Psychology Today is generally not reliable for psychology-related topics (despite its name), so I would remove that sentence. Also, it seems slightly out of place there regardless IMO.
"and death" – death is not mentioned elsewhere in this paragraph, nor do I believe dying is related to either punishment, humiliation or degradation.
The paragraph beginning with "Many of the negative associations..." is listing the categories of associations, one of which is "Nudity and Death" (Barcan 2004a, p.116). Perhaps too terse, I could clarify.--
WriterArtistDC (
talk)
01:34, 10 September 2023 (UTC)reply
I have re-written the paragraph, and added specific page citations. I hope this is not taken as too much from a single source. I could go back to citing the entire 32 page book section at the end.--
WriterArtistDC (
talk)
16:21, 11 September 2023 (UTC)reply
IMO the sentence starting "Those that adopt naturism later in life …" reads like an advocacy for it.
For personal elaboration, "Dutch men were more open to the idea of gender equality" is saying that the Netherlands was more open to gender equality in general as opposed to the United States, rather than in relation to nudity specifically?
It is difficult to convey the ideas in the source without too
closely paraphrasing. Her premise is that mixed-gender nudity, particularly in childhood, was part of the Dutch being more sex-positive (less puritanical) than the US, which resulted in greater success in promoting gender equality generally. However, there is no attribution of causation, more social evolution. I will go back to the source and think about making it clearer without crossing the line into OR.--
WriterArtistDC (
talk)
05:24, 10 September 2023 (UTC)reply
The second paragraph in § Female nudity is too short and also related enough to the first paragraph to be merged into it instead of being standalone.
I am pondering removing the reference to high fashion, which is separate because what designers claim as empowerment has little to do with the everyday experiences of women.--
WriterArtistDC (
talk)
14:57, 10 September 2023 (UTC)reply
The continuity and wording of the paragraph starting "Survey research was done in Australia" reads quite out of place for me.
Its from an psychological research paper, so the language is what I am used to reading. Since a single survey is primary research, and now 29 years old, I have deleted it. It was only there to have something from outside the US, I will look for another source.
Are there any key arguments or criticisms against the idea of topfreedom that could be mentioned?
In one sentence you write "The general advice for caregivers" and the next opens with "Parents and caregivers"; does "The general advice for caregivers is to find ways of setting boundaries without giving the child a sense of shame" refer to only caregivers and not parents whereas the next sentence does? Otherwise I would perhaps use "parent or guardian" or a similar term(s) to avoid any confusion.
Relatedly, the sentence commencing with "Parents and caregivers need to understand that a child's explorations …" has an argumentative and fairly non-encyclopaedic tone.
I have reorganized this section into two paragraphs, the first uses citations from the US, the second from Northern Europe (a minimal effort to globalize, given the lack of sources available). In the first paragraph, I have kept the initial sentence that is citing a report addressed to parents, while adding a sentence to clarify that the second source is from an article that talks about daycare, addressing only caregivers.
The second paragraph combines the European citations, including the citation from Bonny Rough, and attributes it to the author while toning down her advocacy. I hope that the observations that the US could benefit by learning from Northern Europe are not "unencyclopedic", since many child professionals say generally the same.
"parks, sidewalks, roads" – "and roads" for consistency with the rest of the article. Done
Pedantry but I reckon "In the absence of visual barriers to being seen without clothes" can be shortened to just "In the absence of visual barriers" given the prior context of the section and this article. Done
"As a participant stated" – a participant of? Open water swimming
"continental Europe conceive of privacy" – is conceive the right word here? Being archaic again, changed to "think"
In § Private nudity, I would wikilink consumerism. Done
I would rephrase the word order of "Individuals vary regarding being comfortable nude in situations that are private" which feels out of place in comparison with your other sentences written like this, which do not feel that way. > "Individuals vary in their comfort with being nude in private."
Wikilink ABC News and USA Today. Done Also:
Instances of % should be changed to "percent" (or per cent) per
MOS:%. Done for all (search and replace)
"which is 15% lower" – here as well.
I would rephrase "classic examples" to sound more formal. > exemplars
"they eventually include separate steam" – should be "included". Done
In § Changing rooms and showers, was nudity in women's locker rooms the same as it was for men's locker rooms in the 20th century? I mention the generational change for women at the end. Its all I can say given the citations available.
I would remove the quotation marks from
art model. Done
"Saint-Tropez to Sardinia" – specify the countries here for unfamiliar readers. Done
The percentage symbols in the sentence starting "In a 2014 survey" should be changed to "percent" per above. Done
"is only symbolic (glass beads)" – does this mean they get "paid" in glass beads? I would make this explicitly clearer if so.
Revision: "While many celebrations of Carnival worldwide include minimal costumes, in the
French Quarter flashing references its history as a "
red-light district", a sexual performance earning a symbolic payment of glass beads."
I think it is worth briefly mentioning streaking's popularity at sporting events.
I don't think there is an RS to support popularity vs. random acts by individuals. The linked article has plenty of instances of the latter.
"police say" reads too much like the title of a news article. Removed
Does "South Africa" mean the country or the region? The region is usually written as Southern Africa to avoid confusion. Done
The last paragraph of § Nudity as protest is not cited.
There are so many wikilinks, citations seemed redundant, but I can pull some in.
"In a picture-making civilization" – is there a commonly-used word that can perhaps be used here as an alternative to 'picture-making'? It just seems rare.
It is the language from the book cited, which I will again have to go to the library to consult.
The image captioned Attic Kylix, c. 470 BCE depicts sex rather than nudity, no? At least from reading the tone of this section it does not compare sex and nudity, and this image is not associated with a performance either.
In the opening paragraph, a distinction is made:
In Western societies, the contexts for depictions of nudity include information, art and pornography. Any ambiguous image not easily fitting into one of these categories may be misinterpreted, leading to disputes.
This image illustrates a constant dispute: art or porn? It does depict both nudity and graphic sex, but few would call it porn due to its antiquity and current home in a
museum.
Seeking to contextualize the Kylix image as erotic art rather than porn, the first reference I found went into greater detail about Ancient Greek sex practices than I had previously known, and I now consider this image to have been porn in its original context in symposia, so I will remove it and look for another image. This is not censorship, but based upon the Nudity article being primarily about contemporary life. In accordance with summary style there is only enough history here to give a sense of where current practices originated, while details are in the separate articles on the history and depictions of nudity.--
WriterArtistDC (
talk)
15:51, 22 September 2023 (UTC)reply
Perhaps the Hindu temple image will be seen in the same light as the Greek, but it is supported with what is likely the most cited academic book on the nude in art.--
WriterArtistDC (
talk)
17:22, 22 September 2023 (UTC)reply
Should be done for now but I might respond to some of your above comments (decided to do this after I finished the full review). Thanks again for your patience and the fast responses! ツLunaEatsTuna(
💬)—14:42, 19 September 2023 (UTC)reply
Nice work! I have just a few concerns left than all that is left for me is the spotcheck (gosh it will be irritating). I started uni during this review so it may take some time.. I am sorry I keep getting delayed.. anyhow:
Looking at other articles and GAs, Leary and Buttermore should still use their full names even if only mentioned once. While they often use only surnames in journals and other certain academic works, we do not do this on Wikipedia as last names generally imply that a reader is already familiar with said persons. OK
Re: Psyh Today, for me it would depend upon whether the particular author is a subject-matter expert. The author of the cited article is a Master of Fine Arts; do you think that qualifies them enough for her opinions regarding social nudity and its psychological benefits for women?
An MFA includes many specializations, but today likely includes some academic study of the role of culture in everyday life, which is exactly what this topic needs.--
WriterArtistDC (
talk)
16:38, 29 September 2023 (UTC)reply
"Go through stages during which they gradually learn a new set of values regarding the human body" is just a bit oddly phrased; I would remove the stages part (does every naturist really go through this?) and make it "… later in life gradually learn …" instead.
I will work on the wording of this passage, and would also like to show my appreciation for your input. Any writer should know that such input is essential to a product that can be read by others not sharing the same background. My background is such that many of the sources I cite seem perfectly clear to me, when they are opaque to most people. That is the reason for nominating articles for GA review, otherwise I get almost no substantial co-editing, only minor corrections.--
WriterArtistDC (
talk)
16:38, 29 September 2023 (UTC)reply
I have re-written the last paragraph of Moral ambiguity, pulling in citations already used in another part of the article, and naming the authors. The contrast between the psychological and sociological perspectives clarifies what I was trying to say using only the latter.
WriterArtistDC (
talk)
20:33, 29 September 2023 (UTC)reply
Everything else is good—pretty fascinating actually—too many to individually comment on but I really like your good judgment regarding removing and adding content and making changes; I am particularly fond of your changes to § Gender equality and the Asia section and company, the nudity and death additions are wonderful, and great work on improving and clearing up § Depictions and performance and your efforts to globalise the article. § Terminology would be cool to see but nothing to withhold GA status over so that can wait. And yes, it is surprising that barefoot communities exist and are really (perhaps a bit too) dedicated—but from what I could find their beliefs are supported by research and science behind it. (Also maybe Wikipedia has hyperobsessive foot fetishists who have greatly expanded said article). ツLunaEatsTuna(
💬)—15:36, 29 September 2023 (UTC)reply
I think these final points have been addressed.
Since this is a vital article (which I think should be level 3, not 4), we are apparently due some
brownie points, with you getting the most credit for slogging through in days what I have been working on since 2019. This is my fourth GA, but I have never done a review, and doubt if I could, certainly not for such a large article. Thanks again. -
WriterArtistDC (
talk)
01:16, 30 September 2023 (UTC)reply
Refs
Passes spotcheck on refs 8, 13, 26, 42, 57, 69, 86, 94, 102, 117, 118, 133, 148, 164, 180, 214 and 227. I found only four minor concerns:
On Ref 35, I did not seem to notice anything regarding the body ornament's non-verbal communications.
In summarizing the entire Introduction to the book cited (30+ pages), I use the term non-verbal communications for the many references to messages and meaning of clothing and nakedness. This is due to my familiarity with "messaging" in the humanities and social sciences, where it has a usage closer to implicit or non-verbal communications, so I thought that term would be clearer for the average reader.--
WriterArtistDC (
talk)
13:39, 10 October 2023 (UTC)reply
The first sentence of § Asia is uncited from the page layout changes.
When I reorganized the Asia section of Cultural differences into subsections, I added the introductory sentence as a summary with the implied support of several of following the citations, and using the term "face" to describe the motivation, although it is not used but conveys the meaning of "dignity and respect" in the Asian sources. Perhaps this crosses the line into OR (Synth). Attaching the Henry and Hansen citations to support the sentence would solve UNCITED but leave the OR problem with "face". I could to use "dignity and respect", but lose the more precise meaning of face, which I assume many Western readers understand. Would it be OR to put face, wikilinked, in parentheses after dignity and respect? Otherwise, I could remove the sentence, letting the subsection content to speak for itself. --
WriterArtistDC (
talk)
13:39, 10 October 2023 (UTC)reply
I would rephrase "are completely naked apart from a piece of string decorated with bird feathers tied to the end of their penises" for copyvio as it is very similar to the source.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.