This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Nu metal article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6Auto-archiving period: 30 days |
The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information. |
Nu metal was a Music good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This
level-5 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Limp Bizkit are absolutely not nu metal. They're a rap band with some guitar riffs. All they do is rap, metal music has never been based on rap vocal style. Take away the guitar riffs from LB and what are you left with? A straight up rap song that just happens to use a real drum kit throwing in a bunch of cymbal splashes. The drumming isn't metal based, it's entirely rap beats, the singing is 100% rap, the DJ scratching etc are all rap. All LB did was add some guitar riffs to rap. That makes them rap as a genre not metal. Nu metal is metal music with various other INFLUENCES. When a bands entire style is grounded on rap, like LBs is, then they're not any form of metal music.
94.175.102.211 ( talk) 11:01, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
It seems to be asserted as if it were a fact that these bands and their musical style were directly labeled "nu metal" in the early 1990s. The article doesn't have sources from before 1998 that describe the context of that era... because users didn't find this "nu metal" thing. Instead, it is mainly retrospective reviews from the 2000s, 2010s and 2020s as sources. The period from 1993 to 1998 should be considered in context.
Subsection "#Terminology and origins" gives a perspective supported by sources from the 2000s and 2010s. It reads, "MTV states that the early nu metal group Korn arrived in 1993 into the burgeoning alternative metal scene". This is a retrospective analysis from 2016 but cannot be interpreted as such in the sentence.
Subsection "#1993–1997: Early development and rise". It reads: "Joel McIver acknowledged Korn as the band that created and pioneered the nu metal genre with its demo Neidermayer's Mind, which was released in 1993." This is looking back in retrospect, but the setting was completely different. Music Connection (Vol. XVIII July 4, 1994, to July 17, 1994, issue 14, page 38) did a review of Korn performing at The Whisky and described "a rock band" with "a sound sometimes metal and sometimes funk".
There is no trace of "nu metal" in the Los Angeles Times review of Korn's first album by Mike Boehm from October 20, 1994. [2] Those who were around when Korn and Deftones released their first albums know that they weren't labeled as "nu metal" but just as "metal" or "hard rock". [3] [4] Korn was described as an "ultra-aggressive metal-rap hybrid" and "post-grunge alt-metal outfits" by Stephen Thomas Erlewine of AllMusic. [5] There is no trace of "nu metal" in the review of Korn's second album by Jon Pareles of The New York Times on November 5, 1996, [6] nor in the review by Kerrang! on August 3, 1996 (issue 607, page 43). Deftones was again described as a "hard rock" band by Billboard in November 1997, [7] and "heavy metal" by Pollstar in December 1997. [8] Some will say it's WP:FRINGE; while it depicts the context of that time and a chronology.
In the article, it reads, "There's some evidence to suggest that Coal Chamber were the first band to whom the tag 'nu metal' was actually applied, in a live review in Spin magazine." There is no indication of the date and number of this Spin magazine. In the article is written: "Nu metal continued to rise in popularity when Korn's 1996 album Life Is Peachy peaked at number 3 on the Billboard 200" Sorry, but it's decontextualized; Korn was not a nu metal band on this tour, it was just metal. [9] (Kerrang!, February 8, 1997, issue 634, pages 16–20; quote p.17: "hybrid of cutting edge metal intensity and bad-ass hip-hop grooves")
Subsection "#Mainstream success (1998–2002)". Context: Here we see Joe Fleischer of Spin writing "nü-metal" in July 1998: [10] However, the terminology was not yet commonly used by MTV as they still described Korn on September 28, 1998, as "funk-metalers' latest album, Follow the Leader". [11] An attempt was made on October 30, 1998, by Geoffrey Himes of The Washington Post who wrote: "The masters of this new sub-genre is Korn, whose first two albums went platinum". [12] At this point, the bands were more often labeled nu-metal as Spin's Chuck Eddy wrote in December 1998: "Florida's Limp Bizkit ... nu-metal with rapped vocals". [13]
The terminology became widespread during the second half of 1998, according to a retrospective article by Q magazine (March 2002, issue 188, page 98). In this review of the 1998 Family Values Tour, it is written that "The inaugural Family Values Tour paired self-immolating Germans with big-shorted American mall rats, recalls Dan Silver. Cue: the birth of nu-metal, 243,000 tickets sales and countless teenage bedrooms left untidy." It is also written: "The Family Values package proved to be a marketing masterstroke. Not only did it act as a catalyst for the nascent nu-metal scene, it also helped etablish its driving dynasty".
The subsection "#Mainstream success (1998–2002)" could be: "#Establishing nu metal terminology and mainstream popularity (1998–2002)". The words "retrospectively" and "in retrospect" could be included within the sentences for information from 1993 to 1998 supported by 2000s, 2010s and 2020s sources. Oroborvs ( talk) 23:36, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
Honestly, based on what I have seen the past couple of months on this page, there seems to have been a lot of conflict over the coherence of this page as a whole. But one of the main things that I feel like has had the most issues was regarding all the bands that have influenced or precursor the genre. While there are some bands that could be agreed upon by some (e.g. Faith No More, Pantera), I have also seen the history of that section alone, how many opposing opinions that have existed, and how many other articles and sources outside of Wikipedia that would list almost a whole paragraph of bands influencing the genre. Because of this, I am not sure if there really even is a point of including that section at all, there may even be a small possibility that if the said influences were to be mentioned at all, they should all be in a separate article regarding it (considering how broad the range of artists and bands is). 2600:1700:E070:6390:C1DD:57E1:F13D:F0CF ( talk) 00:37, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
just a bunch of guys complaining about how bad nu metal is, nothing to do with the legacy 2A00:23C8:CE05:7B01:E02A:FC19:CE68:93FC ( talk) 15:11, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Nu metal article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6Auto-archiving period: 30 days |
The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information. |
Nu metal was a Music good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This
level-5 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Limp Bizkit are absolutely not nu metal. They're a rap band with some guitar riffs. All they do is rap, metal music has never been based on rap vocal style. Take away the guitar riffs from LB and what are you left with? A straight up rap song that just happens to use a real drum kit throwing in a bunch of cymbal splashes. The drumming isn't metal based, it's entirely rap beats, the singing is 100% rap, the DJ scratching etc are all rap. All LB did was add some guitar riffs to rap. That makes them rap as a genre not metal. Nu metal is metal music with various other INFLUENCES. When a bands entire style is grounded on rap, like LBs is, then they're not any form of metal music.
94.175.102.211 ( talk) 11:01, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
It seems to be asserted as if it were a fact that these bands and their musical style were directly labeled "nu metal" in the early 1990s. The article doesn't have sources from before 1998 that describe the context of that era... because users didn't find this "nu metal" thing. Instead, it is mainly retrospective reviews from the 2000s, 2010s and 2020s as sources. The period from 1993 to 1998 should be considered in context.
Subsection "#Terminology and origins" gives a perspective supported by sources from the 2000s and 2010s. It reads, "MTV states that the early nu metal group Korn arrived in 1993 into the burgeoning alternative metal scene". This is a retrospective analysis from 2016 but cannot be interpreted as such in the sentence.
Subsection "#1993–1997: Early development and rise". It reads: "Joel McIver acknowledged Korn as the band that created and pioneered the nu metal genre with its demo Neidermayer's Mind, which was released in 1993." This is looking back in retrospect, but the setting was completely different. Music Connection (Vol. XVIII July 4, 1994, to July 17, 1994, issue 14, page 38) did a review of Korn performing at The Whisky and described "a rock band" with "a sound sometimes metal and sometimes funk".
There is no trace of "nu metal" in the Los Angeles Times review of Korn's first album by Mike Boehm from October 20, 1994. [2] Those who were around when Korn and Deftones released their first albums know that they weren't labeled as "nu metal" but just as "metal" or "hard rock". [3] [4] Korn was described as an "ultra-aggressive metal-rap hybrid" and "post-grunge alt-metal outfits" by Stephen Thomas Erlewine of AllMusic. [5] There is no trace of "nu metal" in the review of Korn's second album by Jon Pareles of The New York Times on November 5, 1996, [6] nor in the review by Kerrang! on August 3, 1996 (issue 607, page 43). Deftones was again described as a "hard rock" band by Billboard in November 1997, [7] and "heavy metal" by Pollstar in December 1997. [8] Some will say it's WP:FRINGE; while it depicts the context of that time and a chronology.
In the article, it reads, "There's some evidence to suggest that Coal Chamber were the first band to whom the tag 'nu metal' was actually applied, in a live review in Spin magazine." There is no indication of the date and number of this Spin magazine. In the article is written: "Nu metal continued to rise in popularity when Korn's 1996 album Life Is Peachy peaked at number 3 on the Billboard 200" Sorry, but it's decontextualized; Korn was not a nu metal band on this tour, it was just metal. [9] (Kerrang!, February 8, 1997, issue 634, pages 16–20; quote p.17: "hybrid of cutting edge metal intensity and bad-ass hip-hop grooves")
Subsection "#Mainstream success (1998–2002)". Context: Here we see Joe Fleischer of Spin writing "nü-metal" in July 1998: [10] However, the terminology was not yet commonly used by MTV as they still described Korn on September 28, 1998, as "funk-metalers' latest album, Follow the Leader". [11] An attempt was made on October 30, 1998, by Geoffrey Himes of The Washington Post who wrote: "The masters of this new sub-genre is Korn, whose first two albums went platinum". [12] At this point, the bands were more often labeled nu-metal as Spin's Chuck Eddy wrote in December 1998: "Florida's Limp Bizkit ... nu-metal with rapped vocals". [13]
The terminology became widespread during the second half of 1998, according to a retrospective article by Q magazine (March 2002, issue 188, page 98). In this review of the 1998 Family Values Tour, it is written that "The inaugural Family Values Tour paired self-immolating Germans with big-shorted American mall rats, recalls Dan Silver. Cue: the birth of nu-metal, 243,000 tickets sales and countless teenage bedrooms left untidy." It is also written: "The Family Values package proved to be a marketing masterstroke. Not only did it act as a catalyst for the nascent nu-metal scene, it also helped etablish its driving dynasty".
The subsection "#Mainstream success (1998–2002)" could be: "#Establishing nu metal terminology and mainstream popularity (1998–2002)". The words "retrospectively" and "in retrospect" could be included within the sentences for information from 1993 to 1998 supported by 2000s, 2010s and 2020s sources. Oroborvs ( talk) 23:36, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
Honestly, based on what I have seen the past couple of months on this page, there seems to have been a lot of conflict over the coherence of this page as a whole. But one of the main things that I feel like has had the most issues was regarding all the bands that have influenced or precursor the genre. While there are some bands that could be agreed upon by some (e.g. Faith No More, Pantera), I have also seen the history of that section alone, how many opposing opinions that have existed, and how many other articles and sources outside of Wikipedia that would list almost a whole paragraph of bands influencing the genre. Because of this, I am not sure if there really even is a point of including that section at all, there may even be a small possibility that if the said influences were to be mentioned at all, they should all be in a separate article regarding it (considering how broad the range of artists and bands is). 2600:1700:E070:6390:C1DD:57E1:F13D:F0CF ( talk) 00:37, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
just a bunch of guys complaining about how bad nu metal is, nothing to do with the legacy 2A00:23C8:CE05:7B01:E02A:FC19:CE68:93FC ( talk) 15:11, 28 May 2024 (UTC)