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A few things, this article is full of NPOV language - more to the point - it takes a rather dim view of Guzman's conquests and exploits. In modern terms some might call his expeditions "holocausts" or "bloodbaths," but let's recall that for 16th century conquistadores, this was par for the course. Let's try to cut some of this reflexively anti-Spanish (or anti-white, or anti-conquistador) verbiage.
TuckerResearch 15:48, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
"Esa cruel conducta siguió en todos los pueblos por los que pasó.... Guzmán exploró y conquistó en siete años casi la tercera parte del país, pero su gran empresa estuvo bañada de sangre, de lágrimas aun de sus proprios soldados, de crueldades, de robos y crímenes sin nombre."
"This cruel conduct continued in all the towns he passed through.... Guzmán explored and conquered in seven years almost a third of the country, but his grand undertaking was bathed in blood, in tears even of his own soldiers, in cruelties, in robbery and crimes without name."
Hello. Thank you for a cordial and reasoned reply, which often does not happen in the hallowed halls of Wikipedia. I am currently diving headlong into the history of northern
New Spain for a paper and stumbled upon this article. The problem I have with this article is semantic not substantive - the history is spot-on accurate, I have problems with some of the words, etc. Let me go through some things I didn't like and let me tell you why.
“He was governor of Pánuco, where he first showed his rapaciousness by taking thousands of Indigenous prisoners and selling them as slaves to the islands of the Caribbean.”
“Rapaciousness” to whom and to people of what era? To the Spanish of the 16th century I doubt they would call him “rapacious.” I think we could remove the phrase.
“New Spain had been governed by a military government, generally violent, arbitrary and exploitative of the Indigenous.”
I think this is a bit harsh, but I can live with it. Perhaps it can be softened.
“Then, gathering an army of 300 discontented conquistadors and 6,000 Indigenous allies, on December 21, 1529 he set out to the west to conquer lands and peoples who till now had resisted the conquest.... This expedition has been described as a “holocaust”. Typically, the conquistadors attacked an Indian village, stole the maize and other food, razed and burned the dwellings [etc.]...”
First, I am of the school that the use of the word “holocaust” should be restricted to the Shoah, as its willy-nilly use elsewhere is often motivated by politics in some form or fashion. It cheapens the horridness of the Holocaust. For example, calling the death of the Taíno in the Caribbean a “holocaust” is, I believe, imprecise and unhelpful. The Spaniards wanted them as slaves and workers - there was no concerted and conscious effort to exterminate them. I doubt Beltrán de Guzmán wanted to kill each and every indigene, namely, commit genocide. He wanted to rule them and collect taxes and riches from them. You can't collect taxes from a dead man. If “holocaust” is retained, I think a footnote is in order. And, as an aside, is it a Spanish-language source? Does it use “holocauste” or another word?
Second, you state Beltrán de Guzmán had “an army of 300 discontented conquistadors and 6,000 Indigenous allies” yet later state that “typically, the conquistadors attacked...” What were these 6,000 indigenes doing? Watching? Did they demur? I doubt it; I’m sure they participated in some form or fashion. This is perhaps the crux of the objection I have to the general tone of this article (and others as well). It is this subtle “white bad,” “red/brown good” feeling. I don't know how many times I've read of historians describing the 1519 conquest of Cortés noting, rightly, that his conquistadores were not alone in the subjection of Mexico. But then all the bad stuff, the rape, the indiscriminate killing, etc., is described as emanating from only the Christian conquistadores. I find this generally dishonest. A continuation of la leyenda negra?
I like "estuvo bañada de sangre." I think it should replace "bloodbath" and be footnoted. But that's just me.
"There have been holocausts throughout human history. It's not an invention of the twentieth century. Even if it's true that there were more in the colonial period, it's still the same phenomenon. I don't think describing it in New Spain is any more anti-European than describing Idid Amin's crimes is anti-African.
Yes, history is full of what we would today call massacres, etc., but were they always considered so bad? By today's standards the conquistadores were bloodthirsty monsters, to the 16th century they were generally heroes. Is it helpful to throw around words like "holocaust" and "violent" and "rapaciousness"? These are, largely, the product of modern value-judgments. I say we describe the phenomena without this verbiage.
TuckerResearch 13:28, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
I think the point that Guzman's actions were seen as criminal even by his contemporaries is important to note and maintain. This is not primarily a matter of cultural difference and historical perspective.
As to the question of using the word "holocaust," one must, it seems to me, note the common use of the word, and that it pretty well describes what happened to the natives here. Genocide might also be appropriate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.59.177.69 ( talk) 18:57, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
I really am not clear on the New Audienca. As a wikipedian without any detailed knowledge of the conquistadors, I am at a loss trying to understand many things. how was Guzman's leadership any different from Cortes? Why did he come to rule New Spain as governor? Who put him in charge? What was his relationship with the four judges?-- Screwball23 talk 20:23, 13 March 2010 (UTC) HIS ACTIONS WERE FULLY SUPPORTED BY THE SPANISH CROWN? Why was he then tried for mistreatment of the natives. Even when it was his political opponents who put him to prison, why did he die in a spanish prison? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.228.93 ( talk) 10:38, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.227.188.129 ( talk) 11:10, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Nuño de Guzmán article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
A few things, this article is full of NPOV language - more to the point - it takes a rather dim view of Guzman's conquests and exploits. In modern terms some might call his expeditions "holocausts" or "bloodbaths," but let's recall that for 16th century conquistadores, this was par for the course. Let's try to cut some of this reflexively anti-Spanish (or anti-white, or anti-conquistador) verbiage.
TuckerResearch 15:48, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
"Esa cruel conducta siguió en todos los pueblos por los que pasó.... Guzmán exploró y conquistó en siete años casi la tercera parte del país, pero su gran empresa estuvo bañada de sangre, de lágrimas aun de sus proprios soldados, de crueldades, de robos y crímenes sin nombre."
"This cruel conduct continued in all the towns he passed through.... Guzmán explored and conquered in seven years almost a third of the country, but his grand undertaking was bathed in blood, in tears even of his own soldiers, in cruelties, in robbery and crimes without name."
Hello. Thank you for a cordial and reasoned reply, which often does not happen in the hallowed halls of Wikipedia. I am currently diving headlong into the history of northern
New Spain for a paper and stumbled upon this article. The problem I have with this article is semantic not substantive - the history is spot-on accurate, I have problems with some of the words, etc. Let me go through some things I didn't like and let me tell you why.
“He was governor of Pánuco, where he first showed his rapaciousness by taking thousands of Indigenous prisoners and selling them as slaves to the islands of the Caribbean.”
“Rapaciousness” to whom and to people of what era? To the Spanish of the 16th century I doubt they would call him “rapacious.” I think we could remove the phrase.
“New Spain had been governed by a military government, generally violent, arbitrary and exploitative of the Indigenous.”
I think this is a bit harsh, but I can live with it. Perhaps it can be softened.
“Then, gathering an army of 300 discontented conquistadors and 6,000 Indigenous allies, on December 21, 1529 he set out to the west to conquer lands and peoples who till now had resisted the conquest.... This expedition has been described as a “holocaust”. Typically, the conquistadors attacked an Indian village, stole the maize and other food, razed and burned the dwellings [etc.]...”
First, I am of the school that the use of the word “holocaust” should be restricted to the Shoah, as its willy-nilly use elsewhere is often motivated by politics in some form or fashion. It cheapens the horridness of the Holocaust. For example, calling the death of the Taíno in the Caribbean a “holocaust” is, I believe, imprecise and unhelpful. The Spaniards wanted them as slaves and workers - there was no concerted and conscious effort to exterminate them. I doubt Beltrán de Guzmán wanted to kill each and every indigene, namely, commit genocide. He wanted to rule them and collect taxes and riches from them. You can't collect taxes from a dead man. If “holocaust” is retained, I think a footnote is in order. And, as an aside, is it a Spanish-language source? Does it use “holocauste” or another word?
Second, you state Beltrán de Guzmán had “an army of 300 discontented conquistadors and 6,000 Indigenous allies” yet later state that “typically, the conquistadors attacked...” What were these 6,000 indigenes doing? Watching? Did they demur? I doubt it; I’m sure they participated in some form or fashion. This is perhaps the crux of the objection I have to the general tone of this article (and others as well). It is this subtle “white bad,” “red/brown good” feeling. I don't know how many times I've read of historians describing the 1519 conquest of Cortés noting, rightly, that his conquistadores were not alone in the subjection of Mexico. But then all the bad stuff, the rape, the indiscriminate killing, etc., is described as emanating from only the Christian conquistadores. I find this generally dishonest. A continuation of la leyenda negra?
I like "estuvo bañada de sangre." I think it should replace "bloodbath" and be footnoted. But that's just me.
"There have been holocausts throughout human history. It's not an invention of the twentieth century. Even if it's true that there were more in the colonial period, it's still the same phenomenon. I don't think describing it in New Spain is any more anti-European than describing Idid Amin's crimes is anti-African.
Yes, history is full of what we would today call massacres, etc., but were they always considered so bad? By today's standards the conquistadores were bloodthirsty monsters, to the 16th century they were generally heroes. Is it helpful to throw around words like "holocaust" and "violent" and "rapaciousness"? These are, largely, the product of modern value-judgments. I say we describe the phenomena without this verbiage.
TuckerResearch 13:28, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
I think the point that Guzman's actions were seen as criminal even by his contemporaries is important to note and maintain. This is not primarily a matter of cultural difference and historical perspective.
As to the question of using the word "holocaust," one must, it seems to me, note the common use of the word, and that it pretty well describes what happened to the natives here. Genocide might also be appropriate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.59.177.69 ( talk) 18:57, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
I really am not clear on the New Audienca. As a wikipedian without any detailed knowledge of the conquistadors, I am at a loss trying to understand many things. how was Guzman's leadership any different from Cortes? Why did he come to rule New Spain as governor? Who put him in charge? What was his relationship with the four judges?-- Screwball23 talk 20:23, 13 March 2010 (UTC) HIS ACTIONS WERE FULLY SUPPORTED BY THE SPANISH CROWN? Why was he then tried for mistreatment of the natives. Even when it was his political opponents who put him to prison, why did he die in a spanish prison? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.228.93 ( talk) 10:38, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.227.188.129 ( talk) 11:10, 11 October 2011 (UTC)