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I remember there being a theorem involving a pyramid with its top cropped off as a big turning point in the history of mathematics. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:7:1A00:6EF:E17C:E69E:8BA1:989F ( talk) 13:05, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
What evidence is there that Novus Ordo Seclorum is motto of Freemasonry. I seriously doubt this in light of the information I found and posted on the Eye of Providence discussion page. Loremaster 18:01, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
present your evidence here.
Anyone have source for this: "Medieval Christians read in Virgil's poem a prophecy of the coming of Christianity." Thx.
Nobs
21:13, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
Ok, here is the explanation coming from someone who has studies latin for three years. seclorum is in the genitive case, plural form. the genitive case is used for the possessive form of a word, therefore, novus ordo seclorum can't mean "new order for the ages" or "new secular order" because each would require a different case, i.e. not the genetive. Furthermore, the latin word seclorum does not translate to "secular", despite the resemblance. It translates to "of the centuries", of the "generations", or "of the ages". Bonus Onus July 9, 2005 02:38 (UTC)
That is academic, and of an earlier period of Latin. It is clear that to the foudning fathers it meant "secular", because by that time the word meant secular even in Latin works, and the word "secular" was derived directly from it !
--
This was on the article page, but really belongs here:
The all seeing eye and pyramid are Freemason. Washington DC as the seat of the new federal govt is admitted to have been founded by Freemasons and Jesuits in Maryland. The New Order replaced the old order-holy roman empire, as these Freemasons are Rome's Crusading Templar Knights. The same all seeing eye is found on France's Declaration of Human Rights from the French Revolution organized by the same Freemason-Templars, such as Franklin & Jefferson; Napoleon, Jacobins. The thing does not announce the birth of the USA it says the 'New Order'. 99.195.110.205 ( talk) 07:17, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
The article says, "By circumscribing the 6 pointed Star of David over the pyramid, 5 of the 6 apices (the 6th being the 'All-seeing eye'), point to the letters spelling M-A-S-O-N. (disputed — see talk page)". What part is being disputed, and based on what evidence? If someone doesn't answer soon, I'll remove the disputed tag. Superm401 | Talk 05:27, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
Unless one points to a notable third-party description of this conspiracy, which asserts its notability, this stuff must be deleted. mikka (t) 02:04, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
I also see no evidence that the Tetragrammaton is 72-fold. If anything, it is fourfold. Septentrionalis 21:47, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
The connection between Galileo and the Illuminati appears to be Dan Brown's invention in Angels and Demons, I do not recall novus ordo seclorum coming into the novel. (It would be implausible; Weishaupt knew Latin, he would not have mistranslated it.) Please supply source. Septentrionalis 16:12, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
This has passed unnoticed for quite a long time; though the article states [t]hese theorists assert that the word should be spelt secolorum, and the alleged first o is omitted for occult reasons, the actual term in latin is saeculus (or seculus), -i; the correct form would be seculorum. Taragüí @ 15:23, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
The spelling is certainly odd, as Thompson (Thomson?) was a Latin teacher. Given the obvious presence of secret society symbols(Pyramid/Eye) on the dollar bill/Great Seal it is naive to simply swallow the official explanation of the other bits. A hidden alternate meaning is the very stuff of the secret society mentality. The plausibility of theories can be discussed, but to remove them would be inappropriate. --Starlight1955 23:23, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Feel welcome to comment on my Seal Latin post; the occult may be not necessary, https://teresapelka.com/2017/09/19/new-people-come/ The text is free to use, CC 2.5. or 4.0. TeresaPelka 02:27, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
Article states, "The scholar mistranslates the phrase to "New Secular Order", with no indication that it was a mistranslation in the story, despite the author's claim in a foreword that the information in the story is completely accurate." In the book I have, the forward states that "references to all works of art, tombs, tunnels, and atchitecture in Rome are entirely factual (as are their exact locations). They can still be seen today." It doesn't say that everything in the book is 'completely accurate." Obviously, as a work of fiction, there are creative licenses, but this sentence suggests that the author believes the book to be entirely fact when Mr. Brown has stated on his web site (and in many interviews) that "each individual reader must explore these characters' viewpoints and come to his or her own interpretations." http://www.danbrown.com/novels/davinci_code/faqs.html -- 66.30.84.242 04:21, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
I personally believe that New Secular Order is a correct translation. I wouldn't translate Novus Ordo Mundi to what people believe to be the New World Order. Mundi is something physical, such as dirt or Earth, when secular is worldly as opposed to holy. If there were a grand conspiracy, they would control the people of the world, and not the dirt; they also wouldn't want you to translate your own Latin.— Slipgrid 15:38, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
>>>>Although latin isn't teached in school regulary, everybody is able to buy a latin dictionary and to translate. So Blueboar, smooth down.
>>>>The latin word for world: there is more than mundi: orbi, terrarum, etc. the word saeclorum can mean time, generation, age, BUT ALSO WORLD. You can find it in every good latin dictionary.
>>>> on the above note - the world mundi means "to clean", wouldnt you use terra? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.147.34.230 ( talk) 22:16, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
My Latin isn't that good, or I'd fix it myself, but I'm sure that the translation of Virgil's Eclogue does not include anything about the 3 stooges! Could someone help out and fix things?
I see the section on the conspiracy theory has been removed. While I believe no word of these claims, the section did have the advantage of keeping this stuff out of the rest of the article; I hope we don't need it back. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:50, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
I have moved the following discussion from the top of the page to the bottom... Note for those who posted: Standard Wikipedia practice is to put new discussion on the bottom of the page... Blueboar 23:51, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
( Sorry, I didn't know how to. Satwa)
Seclorum (or saeculorum) does not come from L.L. saecularis as is asserted below; they are two entirely different forms of the word Saeculum. Seclorum, being the nominative plural possessive, means "of the generations," "of the ages," "of the centuries," or if you wish, "of the worlds." Saecularis, being the adjective, means "worldly" or "secular." Thus your citing of the "Secular c. 1290" etc. below is well and good for Saecularis, but has no bearing on Seclorum. Cf. Eric Partridge, A Short Etymological Dictionary of Modern English, NY: The Macmillan Co., 1963, p. 601: "2. The Go[thic] mana-seths, seed of men, i.e. mankind, hence the world, brings us to L[atin] saeculum, O[ld] L[atin] saeclum, generation ... whence the period of a generation, hence a vaguely longer period, esp a century, finally, in L[ate] L[atin], mankind, the world (of human beings)...3. The derivative L[atin] adj[ective] saecularis takes, in L[ate] L[atin], the sense "worldly, profane," whence ... E[nglish] secular...."
Saecularis, "secular," thus derives from, but differs from, Saeculum, "generation" or "century," and its genitive plural inflection, Seclorum, "of the generations" or "of the centuries." Justme1956 05:51, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
DISPUTE:
Above you State: "Seclorum, being the nominative plural possessive, means ...(snip).. "of the worlds." "
Thanks for verifying what I have been saying all along.
The online etymological dictionary states:
"sæculum" can mean "world", "Sæcularis" means "worldy", "secular"
SECULAR: c.1290, "living in the world, not belonging to a religious order," also "belonging to the state," from O.Fr. seculer, from L.L. sæcularis "worldly, secular,"...Used in ecclesiastical writing like Gk. aion "of this world" http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=secular.
THAT MEANS: "sæcularis" means "worldy", "secular".
Again, the online etymological dictionary states:
"WORLD" "Original sense in "world without end", translating L. sæcula sæculorum, and in worldly. L. sæculum can mean both "age" and "world," as can Gk. aion." http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=afterlife
THAT MEANS: "sæculum" can mean "world", "worldly" .
On the main page here on Wikipedia it states: " Saeculum did come to mean "age, world" in late, Christian, Latin, and "secular" is derived from it, through secularis"
So, it is most likely that that is the sense that the founders of US meant it.
sec•u•lar- ADJECTIVE: 1.Worldly, rather than spiritual. 2.Not specifically relating to religion or to a religious body: secular music. 3.Relating to or advocating secularism. 4.Not bound by monastic restrictions, especially not belonging to a religious order. Used of the clergy. 5.Occurring or observed once in an age or century. 6.Lasting from century to century [2]
And interestingly the word is also related to these: secedo : to go apart, withdraw. secerno secrevi secretum : to separate. seco : secui : sectum : to cut, hurt, wound, amputate, divide, part. securis : axe, hatchet, battle-axe.
ie. separation of religion and state.
Thus the motto Novus Ordo Seclorum can be translated as "The New Secular Order." or perhaps "A new order of the ages." It was proposed by Charles Thomson, the Latin expert who was involved in the design of the Great Seal of the United States, to signify "the beginning of the new American Era" as of the date of the Declaration of Independence.
(Satwa)
No references:
This part of the article needs references or should be stricken:
The word seclorum does not mean " secular", as one might assume, but is the genitive (possessive) plural form of the word saeculum, meaning (in this context) generation, century, or age. (needs refences or should be stricken)
Satwa
Here's a citation showing that -orum is the genitive plural form of Latin's 2nd declension, hence "of the generations" or "of the ages" or (in a Late Latin stretch, dubious at best because of the source's being from the Classical Latin poet Virgil, and because it doesn't in any event make a lot of sense, unless Virgil and the Founding Fathers were envisioning a United Federation of Planets) "of the worlds" -- but certainly not "worldly" by any stretch:
http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/caseusage/qt/Latin2nddecl.htm
Justme1956 19:43, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
¶ I am cranked that my attempted addition was deleted. I want to call attention to the fact that "sæclorum" is used to mean 'an age that may consist of several centuries', as shown in Cicero, De Natura Deorum (The Nature of the Gods), book 2, ch.2, line 52, wherein Cicero discusses the astronomical movements of the planet Saturn and says that it has been consistent "for eternal ages" (sempiternis sæclorum ætiatibus). This quotation is cited in Lewis & Short's Latin Dictionary, s.v. saeculum, II,B,2 (page 1614). The same quotation in Wm. Short's Latin-English Dictionary (London 1855), s.v. seculum, spells the word "seclorum" (= with an e instead of æ), Exactly as it appears in the Great Seal. I'd be VERY appreciative if someone would work this (to clarify the that "ages" in the motto mean a VERY long time) into the Wiki entry! Sussmanbern ( talk) 03:59, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
'Seclorum' means 'secular'. It's irrelevant what it meant in the ancient Latin or by Virgil or anyone else before 18th century America. What is relevant is how people were using it in the 18th and 19th century. They clearly meant it to mean a 'secular' separation of church and state. Any other way of interpreting this is either ignorant or some kind of agenda to manipulate the intention of the founders. Some want it to mean 'World' so they can harp on about conspiracy theories, others want it to mean 'of the ages' so they can insert their religion into the founders intent as this phrase is so imprecise. There is no question they meant 'secular' by this phrase, and looking at how the word was used in the writings of the time is the only thing that counts. All this attempt to translate the perfect ancient Latun version on the page is a waste of space. I suggest that it is all cut out, and this is put in it's place:
SECULAR: c.1290, "living in the world, not belonging to a religious order," also "belonging to the state," from O.Fr. seculer, from L.L. sæcularis "worldly, secular,"...Used in ecclesiastical writing like Gk. aion "of this world" http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=secular ie. 'New Secular Order'.
Shouldn't there be some reference to this? 76.23.153.173 ( talk) 04:17, 23 November 2007 (UTC) R.E.D.
Guh. Satan is on our dollar without us even realizing it. Yet nobody listens. Anyway, considering what the phrase is, its a good article..... And the translation is quite accurate. I think you all have done a good job on this article, it shouldnt need any more improving. 71.76.153.217 ( talk) 02:42, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
"Actually, that is a debatable question... many reliable sources say it does exist" Quite impossible, as any source which says such a absurd statement would obviously need to revaluate itself. Travis T. Cleveland ( talk) 19:54, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Well, based on you debating it, i would call it a debatable question —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aeon82 ( talk • contribs) 16:48, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
"Whatever the price of the Chinese Revolution, it has obviously succeeded not only in producing more efficient and dedicated administration, but also in fostering high morale and community of purpose. The social experiment in China under Chairman Mao's leadership is one of the most important and successful in human history."– David Rockefeller
99.195.110.205 ( talk) 07:44, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
You guys are trying pretty hard to make it seem like it isn't saying New World Order. Trying hard = guilt. - a non brainwashed american. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 170.3.8.253 ( talk) 17:57, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
This obsession with Virgil's Latin is a red-herring. Seclorum meant "of the ages" in Roman times, but the real question is what did it mean in the eighteenth century.
The Founding Fathers were very conscious of themselves as establishing a new political order, as opposed to the old political order of monarchy. They were also very conscious of establishing a secular political order, as opposed to the Old World pattern of church-state entanglement. Also, they knew well that "of the ages" (i.e., "within time" or "temporal") had come to mean secular.
They used the old form because quoting Virgil appealed to them, but it is silly to expect that they slavishly followed Virgil's meaning. Why imagine that they were making obscure references to "ages" when a "New Secular Order" was in fact what they were consciously creating?
70.187.212.62 ( talk) 14:22, 27 January 2008 (UTC)Dan Holdgreiwe
We say it is both... in the same paragraph. So which is it?
I'm no fascist or revolutionary, but the "New World Order" thing, in a sense, is kind of true. I think that its more like a New World Order rather than a New World Order. Opinions? Sirius85 ( talk) 19:54, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
No, I'm trying to say that perhaps people are focusing on the words New and Order instead of New and World. I theorize that it's not a New Order of the World, but the Order of the New World. Mine is a theory of misinterpretation. Sirius85 ( talk) 21:47, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
YOU'RE MISSING THE POINT! I'm not saying the translation is New World Order, I'm saying that it's the social and political system of the New World, New World being the outdated name for the Americas. I even left a link to said page. NOW the entire discussion is moot. Sirius85 ( talk) 19:10, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
No I'm not! I'm NOT, repeat NOT, trying to say that's the wrong translation. New World is the archaic term for the americas, not a translation of seclorum as you think I'm saying. I understand that some think it means New World Order, but I don't. I know it translates as "of the times" or "of the ages", so look up New World and you'll see where I'm coming from. As I stated before but apparently you didn't pay attention its the social and political system of the New World, NOT THE TRANSLATION. We were the first to fully implement these ideals, meaning that Novus Ordo Seclorum is a concept of the New World. Sirius85 ( talk) 20:22, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
Okay, were getting somewhere. It probably doesn't belong in the article, but I'm saying it came to fruition by Freemason George Washington, who made america the basis for this ideal. The United States and the surrounding countries were called the New World long before european settlers came to North America, possibly getting the name from the Vikings who reportedly made it as far south as the coast of my state of Maine, because they originally thought that the earth was flat, so the discovery of the Western Hemisphere was astonishing back then. That's where I got the New World part from. I figured that the Order part referred to social order and jurisprudence.
I confess perhaps this is my personal defintion of "New World Order" as a historical and anti- fascist/anti-conspiracy idea, but I thought I'd discuss this matter and see what others think. It looks like I accomplished just that. Sirius85 ( talk) 22:36, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
- ANSWER: There is a lot of evidence to suggest New World Order is a Freemason motto as on the One Dollar bill seal, if you get certain letters it spells: Mason. Coincidence? The motto is also under the 'All Seeing Eye' - an Illuminati symbol. The Illuminati are the a mysterious and some believe global organization which has connections to Freemasonry and the Occult. The one dollar bill is full of occult symbols including the Ooccult owl. Many of America's presidents (if not all) have mentioned the New World Order or displayed hand signs in connection to the motto. The motto is simply stating a New World is coming under a new organization preferably under the 'Illuminati'. I would be very happy to continue this discussion but i strongly urge you to accept that the motto is off Freemasonry influence. I also have historical evidence linking Crusaders, occultists, George Bush, Catholisism and much more. - If you look closly you will see the symbols' - They are planted everwhere - road signs, company logos, cash notes, rings, churchs - you name it. The Omega symbol, occult own, All seeing eye, the letter 'Y' is a letter in worship of the Devil. I bet you the peace sign has some connection with devil worship - any two pointed symbol has some dirty influence and origin. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.211.4.4 ( talk) 20:10, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
I am not 100% sure, but I think that "seclorum" does not exists in Latin. It's saeclorum (or more precisely "saeclōrum"/"sæclōrum"). – pjoef ( talk • contribs) 07:42, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
There is nothing in the article about the Roman numerals on the front face of the pyrimid. Vought109 ( talk) 20:03, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
What is the source of this translation? It is too figurative, if you ask me. The words "iam redit et Virgo, redeunt Saturnia regna" literally mean: "Now the Virgin also returns, Saturn's kingdoms return." I don't see how that turned into justice and honored rules.
The article says: The phrase is also mistranslated as "New World Order" by many people who believe in a conspiracy behind the design; however, it does directly translate to "New Order of the Ages"
Uhm, What else is a new world order than an new order of the ages? I think this snippet of POV should be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.248.7.77 ( talk) 18:49, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
From the etymology of world we learn that, prior to the existence of the modern concept, it meant age of man and actually is a Teutonic translation of Latin saecula, ages, which in turn is a translation of Greek aiona.
Quoting from the Online Etymological Dictionary, this excerpt:
world (n.), . . . with a literal sense of "age of man," from Proto-Germanic *wer "man" (Old English wer, still in werewolf; see virile) + *ald "age" (see old). . . Original sense in world without end, translating Latin saecula saeculorum, and in worldly. Latin saeculum can mean both "age" and "world," as can Greek aion.
So, much, though by no means all, of the above discussion is pointless. The ancients didn't have our world concept, closest thing available was "ages." And we, today, are able to think in their terms only with some difficulty . . hgwb ( talk) 02:52, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
It doesn't seem too difficult to understand our disagreement hinges on a subtle aspect of translation: It's a question of semantics & vocabulary all rolled into one conceptual challenge. Wikipedia editors ought to have these issues at their fingertips. The two competing vocabularies "ages" vs. "world" as well as their semantics have a long history in which they went through a process of evolution. The most ancient times did not possess the modern semantics of "world," but they nonetheless expressed similar concepts, as we, living today can tell by examining their writings using our modern, more powerful, outlook. As I hope to have convinced you, the etymology of "world" proves it arose as Teutonic translation of Latin "seclorum," which itself was translated from Greek "aeon" (in its Latinized spelling). Because the U.S. national motto "NOVUS ORDO SECLORUM" is in Latin, we should attempt to understand its vocabulary items in their ancient environment, accessible only in a dim and partial way. Then we must concede, that the two concepts merge in a common ancient semantics, that presumably was the aim of Charles Thomson. Very possibly the preceding, my attempt of explaining to you a matter of great subtlety, may help us to reach agreement. hgwb 01:46, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
Translation is a tricky thing... and to comply with our WP:Verifiability and WP:No original research policies, we should probably use a published translation (ie not translate it ourselves)... something that we can cite. I note that greatseal.com gives two possible translations. Blueboar ( talk) 13:56, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
The peace apparently being quoted does not contain the quote itself, this may be explainable but it is not explained, also can we get a philologist to call up management and get something set in stone for this and others like it (popular with conspiracy theorists) so we have a reputation to back whatever turns out to be the case. sovos 12/12/14 AM — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.35.136.67 ( talk) 11:50, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
I know we have discussed this multiple times... and each time the consensus has been to say "mistranslated". However, consensus can change and (based on recent edits) I think it is time to find our whether consensus has changed or not. Shall we continue to say "mistranslated"? Blueboar ( talk) 14:48, 22 March 2015 (UTC)
I note that the templates for {{US currency and coinage}} and {{List of official United States national symbols}} were recently added. I do understand why the templates were added, but I have to question whether the addition was really appropriate.
First, as to the currency and coinage template... Yes, the motto "Novus ordo seclorum" does appear on the dollar bill ... but only because the Great Seal of the United States appears on the dollar bill, and the motto is part of the Great Seal. It is unlike (say) the motto " In God We Trust", which appears on coins and currency on its own (and not as part of any other emblem).
I suppose it might be appropriate to add these templates to the Great Seal article (although even there I have concerns)... but I don't think it is appropriate to take the association down to the next level, and add the template to articles about the component parts of the seal (and especially since we seem to do so in an inconsistent manner... I note that we don't add the template to our article on the olive branch or to our dab page on Unfinished Pyramid ... and yet those symbols are equally important component parts of the Great Seal.)
I am also concerned that we are inconsistent about what articles we add these templates to - for example: the Lincoln Memorial appears on both the 5 cent coin and the five dollar bill (thus, appearing on two pieces of coinage and currency - as opposed to the Great Seal, which appears on just one: the one dollar note) - yet we don't add the templates to the bottom of our Lincoln Memorial article.
I have similar concerns about adding the national symbols template. The motto is not really a national symbol in itself... again, it is a component part of a symbol (the Great Seal). It's like the olive branch or the unfinished pyramid. The motto Novus Ordo Seclorum does not stand on its own as a national symbol... but as a component part of a national symbol.
Thoughts? Blueboar ( talk) 16:57, 9 May 2015 (UTC)
Not sure why we have this paragraph. It seems to be a nonsequitor about how Dante (and other poets of his era) viewed Virgil's poetry in general, and not specifically related to the motto. Should we remove it? Blueboar ( talk) 13:13, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
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I remember there being a theorem involving a pyramid with its top cropped off as a big turning point in the history of mathematics. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:7:1A00:6EF:E17C:E69E:8BA1:989F ( talk) 13:05, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
What evidence is there that Novus Ordo Seclorum is motto of Freemasonry. I seriously doubt this in light of the information I found and posted on the Eye of Providence discussion page. Loremaster 18:01, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
present your evidence here.
Anyone have source for this: "Medieval Christians read in Virgil's poem a prophecy of the coming of Christianity." Thx.
Nobs
21:13, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
Ok, here is the explanation coming from someone who has studies latin for three years. seclorum is in the genitive case, plural form. the genitive case is used for the possessive form of a word, therefore, novus ordo seclorum can't mean "new order for the ages" or "new secular order" because each would require a different case, i.e. not the genetive. Furthermore, the latin word seclorum does not translate to "secular", despite the resemblance. It translates to "of the centuries", of the "generations", or "of the ages". Bonus Onus July 9, 2005 02:38 (UTC)
That is academic, and of an earlier period of Latin. It is clear that to the foudning fathers it meant "secular", because by that time the word meant secular even in Latin works, and the word "secular" was derived directly from it !
--
This was on the article page, but really belongs here:
The all seeing eye and pyramid are Freemason. Washington DC as the seat of the new federal govt is admitted to have been founded by Freemasons and Jesuits in Maryland. The New Order replaced the old order-holy roman empire, as these Freemasons are Rome's Crusading Templar Knights. The same all seeing eye is found on France's Declaration of Human Rights from the French Revolution organized by the same Freemason-Templars, such as Franklin & Jefferson; Napoleon, Jacobins. The thing does not announce the birth of the USA it says the 'New Order'. 99.195.110.205 ( talk) 07:17, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
The article says, "By circumscribing the 6 pointed Star of David over the pyramid, 5 of the 6 apices (the 6th being the 'All-seeing eye'), point to the letters spelling M-A-S-O-N. (disputed — see talk page)". What part is being disputed, and based on what evidence? If someone doesn't answer soon, I'll remove the disputed tag. Superm401 | Talk 05:27, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
Unless one points to a notable third-party description of this conspiracy, which asserts its notability, this stuff must be deleted. mikka (t) 02:04, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
I also see no evidence that the Tetragrammaton is 72-fold. If anything, it is fourfold. Septentrionalis 21:47, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
The connection between Galileo and the Illuminati appears to be Dan Brown's invention in Angels and Demons, I do not recall novus ordo seclorum coming into the novel. (It would be implausible; Weishaupt knew Latin, he would not have mistranslated it.) Please supply source. Septentrionalis 16:12, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
This has passed unnoticed for quite a long time; though the article states [t]hese theorists assert that the word should be spelt secolorum, and the alleged first o is omitted for occult reasons, the actual term in latin is saeculus (or seculus), -i; the correct form would be seculorum. Taragüí @ 15:23, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
The spelling is certainly odd, as Thompson (Thomson?) was a Latin teacher. Given the obvious presence of secret society symbols(Pyramid/Eye) on the dollar bill/Great Seal it is naive to simply swallow the official explanation of the other bits. A hidden alternate meaning is the very stuff of the secret society mentality. The plausibility of theories can be discussed, but to remove them would be inappropriate. --Starlight1955 23:23, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Feel welcome to comment on my Seal Latin post; the occult may be not necessary, https://teresapelka.com/2017/09/19/new-people-come/ The text is free to use, CC 2.5. or 4.0. TeresaPelka 02:27, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
Article states, "The scholar mistranslates the phrase to "New Secular Order", with no indication that it was a mistranslation in the story, despite the author's claim in a foreword that the information in the story is completely accurate." In the book I have, the forward states that "references to all works of art, tombs, tunnels, and atchitecture in Rome are entirely factual (as are their exact locations). They can still be seen today." It doesn't say that everything in the book is 'completely accurate." Obviously, as a work of fiction, there are creative licenses, but this sentence suggests that the author believes the book to be entirely fact when Mr. Brown has stated on his web site (and in many interviews) that "each individual reader must explore these characters' viewpoints and come to his or her own interpretations." http://www.danbrown.com/novels/davinci_code/faqs.html -- 66.30.84.242 04:21, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
I personally believe that New Secular Order is a correct translation. I wouldn't translate Novus Ordo Mundi to what people believe to be the New World Order. Mundi is something physical, such as dirt or Earth, when secular is worldly as opposed to holy. If there were a grand conspiracy, they would control the people of the world, and not the dirt; they also wouldn't want you to translate your own Latin.— Slipgrid 15:38, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
>>>>Although latin isn't teached in school regulary, everybody is able to buy a latin dictionary and to translate. So Blueboar, smooth down.
>>>>The latin word for world: there is more than mundi: orbi, terrarum, etc. the word saeclorum can mean time, generation, age, BUT ALSO WORLD. You can find it in every good latin dictionary.
>>>> on the above note - the world mundi means "to clean", wouldnt you use terra? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.147.34.230 ( talk) 22:16, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
My Latin isn't that good, or I'd fix it myself, but I'm sure that the translation of Virgil's Eclogue does not include anything about the 3 stooges! Could someone help out and fix things?
I see the section on the conspiracy theory has been removed. While I believe no word of these claims, the section did have the advantage of keeping this stuff out of the rest of the article; I hope we don't need it back. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:50, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
I have moved the following discussion from the top of the page to the bottom... Note for those who posted: Standard Wikipedia practice is to put new discussion on the bottom of the page... Blueboar 23:51, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
( Sorry, I didn't know how to. Satwa)
Seclorum (or saeculorum) does not come from L.L. saecularis as is asserted below; they are two entirely different forms of the word Saeculum. Seclorum, being the nominative plural possessive, means "of the generations," "of the ages," "of the centuries," or if you wish, "of the worlds." Saecularis, being the adjective, means "worldly" or "secular." Thus your citing of the "Secular c. 1290" etc. below is well and good for Saecularis, but has no bearing on Seclorum. Cf. Eric Partridge, A Short Etymological Dictionary of Modern English, NY: The Macmillan Co., 1963, p. 601: "2. The Go[thic] mana-seths, seed of men, i.e. mankind, hence the world, brings us to L[atin] saeculum, O[ld] L[atin] saeclum, generation ... whence the period of a generation, hence a vaguely longer period, esp a century, finally, in L[ate] L[atin], mankind, the world (of human beings)...3. The derivative L[atin] adj[ective] saecularis takes, in L[ate] L[atin], the sense "worldly, profane," whence ... E[nglish] secular...."
Saecularis, "secular," thus derives from, but differs from, Saeculum, "generation" or "century," and its genitive plural inflection, Seclorum, "of the generations" or "of the centuries." Justme1956 05:51, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
DISPUTE:
Above you State: "Seclorum, being the nominative plural possessive, means ...(snip).. "of the worlds." "
Thanks for verifying what I have been saying all along.
The online etymological dictionary states:
"sæculum" can mean "world", "Sæcularis" means "worldy", "secular"
SECULAR: c.1290, "living in the world, not belonging to a religious order," also "belonging to the state," from O.Fr. seculer, from L.L. sæcularis "worldly, secular,"...Used in ecclesiastical writing like Gk. aion "of this world" http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=secular.
THAT MEANS: "sæcularis" means "worldy", "secular".
Again, the online etymological dictionary states:
"WORLD" "Original sense in "world without end", translating L. sæcula sæculorum, and in worldly. L. sæculum can mean both "age" and "world," as can Gk. aion." http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=afterlife
THAT MEANS: "sæculum" can mean "world", "worldly" .
On the main page here on Wikipedia it states: " Saeculum did come to mean "age, world" in late, Christian, Latin, and "secular" is derived from it, through secularis"
So, it is most likely that that is the sense that the founders of US meant it.
sec•u•lar- ADJECTIVE: 1.Worldly, rather than spiritual. 2.Not specifically relating to religion or to a religious body: secular music. 3.Relating to or advocating secularism. 4.Not bound by monastic restrictions, especially not belonging to a religious order. Used of the clergy. 5.Occurring or observed once in an age or century. 6.Lasting from century to century [2]
And interestingly the word is also related to these: secedo : to go apart, withdraw. secerno secrevi secretum : to separate. seco : secui : sectum : to cut, hurt, wound, amputate, divide, part. securis : axe, hatchet, battle-axe.
ie. separation of religion and state.
Thus the motto Novus Ordo Seclorum can be translated as "The New Secular Order." or perhaps "A new order of the ages." It was proposed by Charles Thomson, the Latin expert who was involved in the design of the Great Seal of the United States, to signify "the beginning of the new American Era" as of the date of the Declaration of Independence.
(Satwa)
No references:
This part of the article needs references or should be stricken:
The word seclorum does not mean " secular", as one might assume, but is the genitive (possessive) plural form of the word saeculum, meaning (in this context) generation, century, or age. (needs refences or should be stricken)
Satwa
Here's a citation showing that -orum is the genitive plural form of Latin's 2nd declension, hence "of the generations" or "of the ages" or (in a Late Latin stretch, dubious at best because of the source's being from the Classical Latin poet Virgil, and because it doesn't in any event make a lot of sense, unless Virgil and the Founding Fathers were envisioning a United Federation of Planets) "of the worlds" -- but certainly not "worldly" by any stretch:
http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/caseusage/qt/Latin2nddecl.htm
Justme1956 19:43, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
¶ I am cranked that my attempted addition was deleted. I want to call attention to the fact that "sæclorum" is used to mean 'an age that may consist of several centuries', as shown in Cicero, De Natura Deorum (The Nature of the Gods), book 2, ch.2, line 52, wherein Cicero discusses the astronomical movements of the planet Saturn and says that it has been consistent "for eternal ages" (sempiternis sæclorum ætiatibus). This quotation is cited in Lewis & Short's Latin Dictionary, s.v. saeculum, II,B,2 (page 1614). The same quotation in Wm. Short's Latin-English Dictionary (London 1855), s.v. seculum, spells the word "seclorum" (= with an e instead of æ), Exactly as it appears in the Great Seal. I'd be VERY appreciative if someone would work this (to clarify the that "ages" in the motto mean a VERY long time) into the Wiki entry! Sussmanbern ( talk) 03:59, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
'Seclorum' means 'secular'. It's irrelevant what it meant in the ancient Latin or by Virgil or anyone else before 18th century America. What is relevant is how people were using it in the 18th and 19th century. They clearly meant it to mean a 'secular' separation of church and state. Any other way of interpreting this is either ignorant or some kind of agenda to manipulate the intention of the founders. Some want it to mean 'World' so they can harp on about conspiracy theories, others want it to mean 'of the ages' so they can insert their religion into the founders intent as this phrase is so imprecise. There is no question they meant 'secular' by this phrase, and looking at how the word was used in the writings of the time is the only thing that counts. All this attempt to translate the perfect ancient Latun version on the page is a waste of space. I suggest that it is all cut out, and this is put in it's place:
SECULAR: c.1290, "living in the world, not belonging to a religious order," also "belonging to the state," from O.Fr. seculer, from L.L. sæcularis "worldly, secular,"...Used in ecclesiastical writing like Gk. aion "of this world" http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=secular ie. 'New Secular Order'.
Shouldn't there be some reference to this? 76.23.153.173 ( talk) 04:17, 23 November 2007 (UTC) R.E.D.
Guh. Satan is on our dollar without us even realizing it. Yet nobody listens. Anyway, considering what the phrase is, its a good article..... And the translation is quite accurate. I think you all have done a good job on this article, it shouldnt need any more improving. 71.76.153.217 ( talk) 02:42, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
"Actually, that is a debatable question... many reliable sources say it does exist" Quite impossible, as any source which says such a absurd statement would obviously need to revaluate itself. Travis T. Cleveland ( talk) 19:54, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Well, based on you debating it, i would call it a debatable question —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aeon82 ( talk • contribs) 16:48, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
"Whatever the price of the Chinese Revolution, it has obviously succeeded not only in producing more efficient and dedicated administration, but also in fostering high morale and community of purpose. The social experiment in China under Chairman Mao's leadership is one of the most important and successful in human history."– David Rockefeller
99.195.110.205 ( talk) 07:44, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
You guys are trying pretty hard to make it seem like it isn't saying New World Order. Trying hard = guilt. - a non brainwashed american. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 170.3.8.253 ( talk) 17:57, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
This obsession with Virgil's Latin is a red-herring. Seclorum meant "of the ages" in Roman times, but the real question is what did it mean in the eighteenth century.
The Founding Fathers were very conscious of themselves as establishing a new political order, as opposed to the old political order of monarchy. They were also very conscious of establishing a secular political order, as opposed to the Old World pattern of church-state entanglement. Also, they knew well that "of the ages" (i.e., "within time" or "temporal") had come to mean secular.
They used the old form because quoting Virgil appealed to them, but it is silly to expect that they slavishly followed Virgil's meaning. Why imagine that they were making obscure references to "ages" when a "New Secular Order" was in fact what they were consciously creating?
70.187.212.62 ( talk) 14:22, 27 January 2008 (UTC)Dan Holdgreiwe
We say it is both... in the same paragraph. So which is it?
I'm no fascist or revolutionary, but the "New World Order" thing, in a sense, is kind of true. I think that its more like a New World Order rather than a New World Order. Opinions? Sirius85 ( talk) 19:54, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
No, I'm trying to say that perhaps people are focusing on the words New and Order instead of New and World. I theorize that it's not a New Order of the World, but the Order of the New World. Mine is a theory of misinterpretation. Sirius85 ( talk) 21:47, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
YOU'RE MISSING THE POINT! I'm not saying the translation is New World Order, I'm saying that it's the social and political system of the New World, New World being the outdated name for the Americas. I even left a link to said page. NOW the entire discussion is moot. Sirius85 ( talk) 19:10, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
No I'm not! I'm NOT, repeat NOT, trying to say that's the wrong translation. New World is the archaic term for the americas, not a translation of seclorum as you think I'm saying. I understand that some think it means New World Order, but I don't. I know it translates as "of the times" or "of the ages", so look up New World and you'll see where I'm coming from. As I stated before but apparently you didn't pay attention its the social and political system of the New World, NOT THE TRANSLATION. We were the first to fully implement these ideals, meaning that Novus Ordo Seclorum is a concept of the New World. Sirius85 ( talk) 20:22, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
Okay, were getting somewhere. It probably doesn't belong in the article, but I'm saying it came to fruition by Freemason George Washington, who made america the basis for this ideal. The United States and the surrounding countries were called the New World long before european settlers came to North America, possibly getting the name from the Vikings who reportedly made it as far south as the coast of my state of Maine, because they originally thought that the earth was flat, so the discovery of the Western Hemisphere was astonishing back then. That's where I got the New World part from. I figured that the Order part referred to social order and jurisprudence.
I confess perhaps this is my personal defintion of "New World Order" as a historical and anti- fascist/anti-conspiracy idea, but I thought I'd discuss this matter and see what others think. It looks like I accomplished just that. Sirius85 ( talk) 22:36, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
- ANSWER: There is a lot of evidence to suggest New World Order is a Freemason motto as on the One Dollar bill seal, if you get certain letters it spells: Mason. Coincidence? The motto is also under the 'All Seeing Eye' - an Illuminati symbol. The Illuminati are the a mysterious and some believe global organization which has connections to Freemasonry and the Occult. The one dollar bill is full of occult symbols including the Ooccult owl. Many of America's presidents (if not all) have mentioned the New World Order or displayed hand signs in connection to the motto. The motto is simply stating a New World is coming under a new organization preferably under the 'Illuminati'. I would be very happy to continue this discussion but i strongly urge you to accept that the motto is off Freemasonry influence. I also have historical evidence linking Crusaders, occultists, George Bush, Catholisism and much more. - If you look closly you will see the symbols' - They are planted everwhere - road signs, company logos, cash notes, rings, churchs - you name it. The Omega symbol, occult own, All seeing eye, the letter 'Y' is a letter in worship of the Devil. I bet you the peace sign has some connection with devil worship - any two pointed symbol has some dirty influence and origin. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.211.4.4 ( talk) 20:10, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
I am not 100% sure, but I think that "seclorum" does not exists in Latin. It's saeclorum (or more precisely "saeclōrum"/"sæclōrum"). – pjoef ( talk • contribs) 07:42, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
There is nothing in the article about the Roman numerals on the front face of the pyrimid. Vought109 ( talk) 20:03, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
What is the source of this translation? It is too figurative, if you ask me. The words "iam redit et Virgo, redeunt Saturnia regna" literally mean: "Now the Virgin also returns, Saturn's kingdoms return." I don't see how that turned into justice and honored rules.
The article says: The phrase is also mistranslated as "New World Order" by many people who believe in a conspiracy behind the design; however, it does directly translate to "New Order of the Ages"
Uhm, What else is a new world order than an new order of the ages? I think this snippet of POV should be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.248.7.77 ( talk) 18:49, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
From the etymology of world we learn that, prior to the existence of the modern concept, it meant age of man and actually is a Teutonic translation of Latin saecula, ages, which in turn is a translation of Greek aiona.
Quoting from the Online Etymological Dictionary, this excerpt:
world (n.), . . . with a literal sense of "age of man," from Proto-Germanic *wer "man" (Old English wer, still in werewolf; see virile) + *ald "age" (see old). . . Original sense in world without end, translating Latin saecula saeculorum, and in worldly. Latin saeculum can mean both "age" and "world," as can Greek aion.
So, much, though by no means all, of the above discussion is pointless. The ancients didn't have our world concept, closest thing available was "ages." And we, today, are able to think in their terms only with some difficulty . . hgwb ( talk) 02:52, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
It doesn't seem too difficult to understand our disagreement hinges on a subtle aspect of translation: It's a question of semantics & vocabulary all rolled into one conceptual challenge. Wikipedia editors ought to have these issues at their fingertips. The two competing vocabularies "ages" vs. "world" as well as their semantics have a long history in which they went through a process of evolution. The most ancient times did not possess the modern semantics of "world," but they nonetheless expressed similar concepts, as we, living today can tell by examining their writings using our modern, more powerful, outlook. As I hope to have convinced you, the etymology of "world" proves it arose as Teutonic translation of Latin "seclorum," which itself was translated from Greek "aeon" (in its Latinized spelling). Because the U.S. national motto "NOVUS ORDO SECLORUM" is in Latin, we should attempt to understand its vocabulary items in their ancient environment, accessible only in a dim and partial way. Then we must concede, that the two concepts merge in a common ancient semantics, that presumably was the aim of Charles Thomson. Very possibly the preceding, my attempt of explaining to you a matter of great subtlety, may help us to reach agreement. hgwb 01:46, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
Translation is a tricky thing... and to comply with our WP:Verifiability and WP:No original research policies, we should probably use a published translation (ie not translate it ourselves)... something that we can cite. I note that greatseal.com gives two possible translations. Blueboar ( talk) 13:56, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
The peace apparently being quoted does not contain the quote itself, this may be explainable but it is not explained, also can we get a philologist to call up management and get something set in stone for this and others like it (popular with conspiracy theorists) so we have a reputation to back whatever turns out to be the case. sovos 12/12/14 AM — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.35.136.67 ( talk) 11:50, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
I know we have discussed this multiple times... and each time the consensus has been to say "mistranslated". However, consensus can change and (based on recent edits) I think it is time to find our whether consensus has changed or not. Shall we continue to say "mistranslated"? Blueboar ( talk) 14:48, 22 March 2015 (UTC)
I note that the templates for {{US currency and coinage}} and {{List of official United States national symbols}} were recently added. I do understand why the templates were added, but I have to question whether the addition was really appropriate.
First, as to the currency and coinage template... Yes, the motto "Novus ordo seclorum" does appear on the dollar bill ... but only because the Great Seal of the United States appears on the dollar bill, and the motto is part of the Great Seal. It is unlike (say) the motto " In God We Trust", which appears on coins and currency on its own (and not as part of any other emblem).
I suppose it might be appropriate to add these templates to the Great Seal article (although even there I have concerns)... but I don't think it is appropriate to take the association down to the next level, and add the template to articles about the component parts of the seal (and especially since we seem to do so in an inconsistent manner... I note that we don't add the template to our article on the olive branch or to our dab page on Unfinished Pyramid ... and yet those symbols are equally important component parts of the Great Seal.)
I am also concerned that we are inconsistent about what articles we add these templates to - for example: the Lincoln Memorial appears on both the 5 cent coin and the five dollar bill (thus, appearing on two pieces of coinage and currency - as opposed to the Great Seal, which appears on just one: the one dollar note) - yet we don't add the templates to the bottom of our Lincoln Memorial article.
I have similar concerns about adding the national symbols template. The motto is not really a national symbol in itself... again, it is a component part of a symbol (the Great Seal). It's like the olive branch or the unfinished pyramid. The motto Novus Ordo Seclorum does not stand on its own as a national symbol... but as a component part of a national symbol.
Thoughts? Blueboar ( talk) 16:57, 9 May 2015 (UTC)
Not sure why we have this paragraph. It seems to be a nonsequitor about how Dante (and other poets of his era) viewed Virgil's poetry in general, and not specifically related to the motto. Should we remove it? Blueboar ( talk) 13:13, 20 July 2017 (UTC)