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A question: The present bibliography is problematic: It does not contain all the articles and books mentioned in the footnotes (and that is good, as they have been quite specific at times to make the exact points). It is secondly not very structured and hence of little help. I would actually like to create a bibliography that somehow follows the chapters of the present article - a bibliography designed to help students dealing with the history of fiction both with general and specific works. Is there an opinion about whether Wikipedia could have a separate page of research dealing with something like the novel - a page that could become relatively large in order to assist those who actually do research on the novel? -- Olaf Simons ( talk) 12:12, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
Hi Aristophanes68. I read the chapter you added - and am not quite sure whether it will lead to anything. Part of what you said has been said in the article's first chapter Antecedents around the world, the other half is the topic of the 20th century chapter I explicitly connected with the issue of globalisation The novel and the global market of texts: 20th- and 21st-century developments. I feel it would make more sense to add additional knowledge under these headings - so far the new chapter does not go far beyond repeating things. -- Olaf Simons ( talk) 11:36, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
Why does Novelist redirect here?
Klkopish added a number of sections, which might receive some more considerations before they get integrated: The major problem is that they continue to speak of the advend of the novel around 1700 - which contradicts the entire article. If anything we mightspeak of a new debate about "novels" and "romances" rising in the 1670s after we had something similar in Chaucer's days. There is no Before Novels in the sense Ian Watt implied or in the sense Paul J. Hunter supported with his book under the title. It only works if one says: These "novels" published before Defoe were no "novels" and if one effectivly avoids them (by focussing on the novel after Defoe). The paragraphs offered remarks on the newness of sequels in the 18th century - said without much knowledge about medieval and early modern fiction and culminated in a number of judgements about the creativity of male and female authors compared, which I read as strongly gender biasd. See for the detaild discussion User talk:Klkopish#Sequels of 18th-Century Novels -- Olaf Simons ( talk) 15:34, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
I'd like to call attention to the fact that this article seems to contradict itself repeatedly. Although it does make brief mention of such ancient romances as Daphnis and Chloe, the Saytircon, the Golden Ass, various works by Lucian like the True Story, etc., it seems oddly at that point to dismiss these narratives as being "satires" or other such nonsense,
whereas elsewhere in the article a novel is defined broadly as a 1. "prose narration" that is 2. distinctly "fictional" as opposed to history - criteria that these ancient novels very clearly fulfill. I realize that this is no doubt do to wider academic confusion over the meaning of the word "novel," but it remains no more acceptable for this reason. Likewise at a separate part Lukacs is cited to distinguish the "novel" from the classical epic (easily found by searching for the hideous epithet "Homerian" in place of "Homeric") on the basis of the fact that epic is supposed to present some sort of unified view and the novel a personal fractured one; here, again, the ancient novel is inexplicably ignored. At yet another point the claim is made that the first romances appeared in southern France, verse romances by Chaucer appearing "much later;" I find this statement extremely puzzling because, sorting from least to most importance: 1. Chaucer did not only write in verse; 2. the term "romance" itself seems hardly less well defined than the term "novel"; 3. even following this argument, the romances of southern France have clear ties to earlier Latin and Greek romances in particular, notable the Alexander Romance which, in many varied guises doubtless, is directly traceable back to antiquity; and 4. when I looked up the citation for this odd statement, I found that it dated from the 17th century (!), which is obviously problematic for many reasons.
Clearly the only logical way to present this article is beginning chronologically with ancient prose narratives, then medieval ones, then modern and so on, making reference to the fact at the beginning perhaps that in the 18th and 19th century European tradition, the word "novel" was primarily understood more strictly to refer to the extremely personal and domestic tradition of prose narrative originating in, perhaps, late 17th century France; but that certainly by the time that the modernist novel had exceeded the bounds of this form in the 20th century, this older definition was in need of an expansion, without which such common terms as the "ancient novel" would make little sense. Without such restructuring I'm afraid this article is very much a jumble. For example, while I wholly appreciate the references to non-European pre-modern prose fiction - and while the cautionary explanation is undoubtedly useful, that is that much of this fiction was, however, unlikely to influence the modern European novel as it became a dominant form in the 18th century - as it is, it makes very little sense that this literature should be discussed before the classical texts I've mentioned above, since these are 1. part of the European tradition which undeniably dominates this article; 2. in terms of influence on the stricter definition of novel far more relevant - certainly Lucian at least was being read in 18th century Europe (!); and most importantly 3. these classical novels are far earlier than the non-European texts in any case (!!), so why in the world should they be mentioned only later?
Well, I suppose the discovery that the term "novel" may not be always particularly useful isn't exactly a new one; but again, if we explain at the beginning that the word can refer either to prose fiction in general or the "novel" as defined in the 18th century in particular, and then proceed to sort all these works on the basis of chronology, I do believe that this article would be greatly improved. Parenthetically, it might also make sense to make brief reference to earlier epic narrative as a predecessor to the classical novel, explaining however that the epic tradition is usually treated separately from that of prose fiction. I very much hope that someone actually takes the effort to read these suggestions and implement the changes required and which, I'm afraid, I have neither the time nor the presumption to take care of myself. Lastly, and somewhat complicating things, there is an important tradition "novels in verse" such as Evgeny Onegin and Don Juan - both works of the highest significance to literary history - which, without compromising my earlier statements, is entirely ignored by this article and probably should not be. I apologize for the inexcusable inelegance of these remarks but must be going. ( 151.50.13.245 ( talk) 23:01, 3 April 2010 (UTC))
I agree that the article should be based on the current meaning of novel. The issue of how the 17th-18th century had a different meaning for the word is really a side article. I.e., "Robinson Crusoe is now considered to be a novel. (It wasn't considered such at the time because of the different 18th-century connotation of novel, see detailed article.)" Sluggoster ( talk) 21:45, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
This article feels like a bit of a conceptual mess to me, and I generally agree with the anon user 151. The idea that there is a clear distinction to be made between a "novel" and a "romance" seems particularly problematic to me, when in French and German the word for novel is "Roman," which is also the word for "romance." As it stands, the article is an interesting essay, but feels close to OR, in the way it meanders about with a lot of very specific genealogies and such. It's hard to advocate scrapping it, though, unless something was available to go in its place besides a stub. But we need something, I think, that is a bit more descriptive and a bit less analytical. john k ( talk) 07:14, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
When talking about Amadis de Gaula as the first best-seller it's not correct to state that the book is portuguese. Even if the origins of the narration are not clear, in the wikipedia entrance to this novel it's considered an older version from Joao de Lobeira, who himself based is lost work on an even older castillian narration. Anyway wether the origin is portuguese or castillian, the book which was a best-seller was the verion from Garcia de Montalvo, and it's difficult to believe the older versions from the XVth century were written in the same style). So this text: "The second major development is fixed to a single title: The Portuguese Amadis de Gaula became the first best-seller of modern fiction" should be changed to "The second major development is fixed to a single title: The Spanish Amadis de Gaula, by García Montalvo became the first best-seller of modern fiction" -- J1sp2sp ( talk) 19:50, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
The history section is more than large and detailed enough for its own article. It's larger and more detailed than most articles we have already. What I'm saying is that it is incredibly, overwhelming big, much more so than what could be kept in a summary article. Just add an intro paragraph and we can move it as-is. And then a massive clean-up is probably in order because it has a strong tendency to go off into polemics and academic analysis. Zazaban ( talk) 02:40, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
Much of the article (what I read of it, anyway) appears to be belabouring the separation of "novels" from "historical writing". And yet, for the modern reader, at least, the salient distinction should surely be between the novel and the romance.
I guess my questions must be:
203.169.48.225 ( talk) 06:07, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
2012. Novel#A fictional narrative needs some rewriting with attention to the fact that it concerns 18th century debate and development. The first three sentences are ok: present tense; present tense note that historical perspective is necessary; past tense beginning to provide that perspective. ("In a historical perspective they are problematic criteria. Histories were supposed to be narrative projects ...") It reverts to present tense before the end of the first par, however, maintains it thruout the second par, and waffles in the third par.
Offhand I suggest rewriting the section in past tense thruout, except for those first two sentences and one late sentence that may be stated parenthetically: "The word novel can appear on book covers and title pages; the artistic effort or the sheer suspense created can find a remark in a preface or on the blurb."
This section doesn't identify any sources. The only footnote to this subsection or the preceding section lead (1.0 and 1.1) gives an illustration. -- P64 ( talk) 15:05, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
what is the reason behind the rise of the novel 85.195.186.70 ( talk) 11:10, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
IMO the section on novel length not only focuses way too much on snoopy and his "novel", but also describes them both in a primarily in-universe way. For example, I think it is hardly necessary to include snoopy's entire fictional novel, as inferred from the strips. It is also not even noted that it is intended as a parody of traditional epic novels, and subjects it to entirely serious literary criticism. I think almost all mention of snoopy should removed from that section, as it has very little to do with the general topic of "novels". Sithman VIII !! 20:39, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
It appears the Snoopy section is lifted directly from a blog. Or perhaps the blog post is lifted from Wiki. MlleDiderot ( talk) 01:14, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
In the Oxford English Dictionary (surely no source is more reliable for defining something) a novel is defined as a "fictitious prose narrative of book-length". http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/novel has either "fictitious" or "fictitious or partly ficticious".
This doesn't mean that a novel can't be "true" or more revealing than a history. But attempts to rededfine a novel should go further down the article, not be in the lead. BillMasen ( talk) 19:06, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
Well so far the criterion comes in the second paragraph. I had formulated the first to include all things that must be the case, and the second to add all controversial issues. I think it is wise to do it this way. Write as exactly as you can about your last day, it will be a novel, though we can both decide to cut out any bit of fictionality. -- Olaf Simons ( talk) 10:17, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
Why is the idea that authors, of high literature or otherwise, are motivated by some kind of an urge to write called a mythology? Following "inner voices, a feeling for injustice, an urge to face a personal trauma" etc. are standard reasons given by most writers for what makes them write. After all, most people who choose to pursue a particular line of work (not to mention something as precarious and unconventional as fiction writing) say they answer some kind of a calling, or at least a personal inclination. I don't think it's some kind of ratified, elitist, self-serving illusion, but a concert and accurate statement of motivation (in fiction and other pursuits as well). I suggest the phrase "popular mythology" be removed. If you like, the claims of answering some inner voice do not have to be stated as an objective fact. You can enclose the phrase "their inner voices ... artistic vision" in quotation marks. This, I think, would be a good compromise . —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.229.237.39 ( talk) 13:34, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
I'm not sure that claims about the urge to write sell anything (as you state in the article, bestselling authors do not usually entertain such views). If these ideas do pay off in some way (say in the form of elite recognition) this does not in itself make them myths. Just because a claim is expedient does not automatically invalidate it. I don’t think postmodernist critiques of authorship are quite relevant either (by the way, Barthes’ “Death of the Author” would be the seminal statement here). What these critics attempted to undermine was the image of the author as a privileged originator of meaning, or as an individual endowed with some unique talent. Why someone chooses to become a writer of fiction is a different, and a more mundane issue in my opinion. Just as practitioners in many fields are motivated by a “calling”, a sense of responsibility, writers (at least of “serious fiction”) are motivated by some kind of an urge to express themselves, work out some inner struggles, or deal with a social/philosophical issues. Of course, such claims are sometimes used to elevate authors to the exalted heights of oracles, but this does not mean the basic idea is entirely wrong. I understand you probably use the term “myth” in the more general sense found in Barthes, something like a cultural construct. But this seems to me to border on original research. (By the way, your very first statement asserts the point you're trying to make, which sounds like begging the question). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.250.250.23 ( talk) 07:53, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
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The article states that the Great Vowel Shift affected almost all European languages. I have only ever heard it discussed in English. The basic point remains, that prose is easier to translate than verse, if one wants to translate the verse form too, but I believe the reference to the Great Vowel Shift is inaccurate here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.211.206.44 ( talk) 17:36, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
The article states, in the section about Romances, that "the Great Vowel Shift affected almost all European languages." I have only ever heard it discussed in English. The basic point remains, that prose is easier to translate than verse, if one wants to translate the verse form too, but I believe the reference to the Great Vowel Shift is inaccurate here. Wikipedia's own page on the GVS, linked, only discusses it in English, so one of the two pages is clearly in need of editing. 66.211.206.44 ( talk) 17:40, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
Does anyone else think that the bulk of this article is a subjective mess? It clearly dominated by a single writer's personal view of the history of the novel. One can see this just by looking at the article's organization and the titles of sub-sections. I'm sorry that I don't have time right now to be more specific, but reading this entry is much more like reading Moretti or McKeon than an encyclopedia. Some of the comments on the history section share this concern. My knee-jerk reaction is that the whole thing should be scrapped and rebuilt more along the lines of Wikipedia standards, but I think it could be greatly improved by moving a lot of the material to a separate entry on Theory of the Novel, organized around the published work of particular scholars. At the very least, there needs to be some recognition of the theory implicit in histories of the novel. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.134.100.143 ( talk) 14:46, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
It seems strange to me that people like Apuleius, Chariton, Petronius Arbiter, Longus and the like never get mention in discussion of the formative period of the Western novel. Most of them are fluff, I won't deny, but the The Golden Ass is legitimate literature, written in prose and of book length, from the 2nd century AD. It's a secondary text in the tradition of Latin classics, but not an unimportant one by any measure, and I feel it should at least get a mention as an early - if exceptional - instance of the art form. 108.18.215.24 ( talk) 01:57, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
Kafka's The Metamorphosis is mentioned, but is not a novel, rather a short story. The summary mentions cockroach, whereas the original doesn't define the creature. I suggest to drop the work in this context. -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 22:17, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
I happened across this term for the first time in this article and it seems unnecessarily pejorative and insulting of genre fiction. I googled it and nothing is coming up, so I question that it exists at all as a term. Surely 'popular fiction' or 'genre fiction' would be superior. And incidentally, the genre of 'literature', characterised by linguistic rewards (as opposed to love, adventure, etc) is referred to as 'high literature' in this article. Again, I'm puzzled by this reference, as the shelves in the bookshop for those books are just the same height as the normal ones. :-) Seriously, is that a real term? Summerdoor ( talk) 21:02, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
"Trivialliteratur" is German for light fiction. Grisunge ( talk) 11:59, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
So, what is a modern novel? Brusegadi ( talk) 21:31, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
What the guy above said. 112.140.79.64 ( talk) 07:35, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
The following sentence is problematic: "The first modern novel has generally been ascribed to a series of picaresque novels, most famously Don Quixote (1605) by Miguel de Cervantes." Indeed the European novel is generally seen as beginning with works like Don Quixote, but the adjective modern is not normally used in this context, but rather for recent and contemporary novels. A more correct title for the article might be "The rise of the novel", but maybe this article should be merged with the very comprehensive main novel article? Rwood128 ( talk) 18:20, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
This page is not readable because it is not organized. Topics move from one to another in continuous succession but seemingly randomly. There is no chronological order. You have one topic discussing 19th century novels, then the topic that follows starts discussing 17th century novels, then somewhere down the line, you have topic that discusses 19th century novels again (saying the same thing), and then the next topic it goes back to discussing some aspect of 18th, 17, 15th century novels. Then you have another topic that talks about 19th century novels again. The topics do not relate to one another. The section on 20th century and 21 century starts off by talking about the demise of the novel and the advent of ebooks and harry potter. I did not know those were issues in the 1900s-1930s.
It is utterly confusing and the article, as long as it is, and being arranged in this arbitrary manner, is not navigable.
JohnWycliff ( talk) 16:39, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
I've been trying to think of ways to bring order to the muddle. Something like the section "The words 'novel' and 'romance'" can probably be merged into other sections, but in the end a chronological, century by century, approach is probably needed. Currently it reads like a series of separate essays on the novel. A good, short overview at the start would greatly help. The idea that the problem is related to the global nature of Wikipedia is erroneous. Rather the problem is that overall organization hasn't been attended to. Rwood128 ( talk) 01:21, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
Thanks Sadads. To be honest at the moment I'm still overwhelmed by the muddle, and the sheer volume of content.
Am I right in thinking that your main point is that this article should concentrate on the history of the novel and that certain sections should be moved into new articles? That could be a solution. Topics like "Writing literary theory" and "Writing world history" may well need to be touched on here, but they are overwhelmingly long for the current article. Other examples would be the sections "Writing for the market of popular fiction" and "The novel and the global market". But do we want four new articles? Perhaps there are articles that already exist that could better accommodate the bulk of this material? For example, might we move most of "Writinging for the market of popular fiction" to Popular fiction and then add a main page link? Finding more appropriate homes for certain sections sounds like a great idea -- there may well be similar possibilities elsewhere in the article.
For now, until I'm a little more familiar with the overall content, I plan to work mainly on correcting errors in content and style. I presume that your comment, re "problems related to the idea of 'novel' within the history" refers to my edits on the romance genre. I plan only to correct obvious errors, or confusion re the development of the main romance genre, in relation to love story sub-genre.
On other points, I'm inclined to think that some headings could be made more effective -- they tend to sound too much like newspaper headlines and often don't give sufficient guidance re content.
A better introduction to the article is also needed, one that fully, though briefly, surveys the topic, and especially clearly defines what it should include. The section "Definitions" is introductory but it is insufficiently focussed, and this section heading is too vague. A major improvement might be to make a (very tight) précis of this whole section.
A slimmed down article, that focussed more narrowly on the history and development of the novel, would be clearer and more readable. Rwood128 ( talk) 14:34, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
Good. i agree with the adjustments that you made to my recent edits. Tried to be bold and knew that that I might not always get it exactly right. I hope that the removal of the sub-sets of dates makes the document clearer. The idea of creating a new History of the novel article seems sensible, though I do still wonder why the existing article, in a revised form shouldn't be the portal? But I believe that we should at least try to deal "with the muddle of the history right now". I may be able to do something, over time, to create more coherence. Rwood128 ( talk) 16:41, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
This article seems to be controlled by a single author, who considers it 'his' article, and seems to come into the talk page, responding to all comments as though he is the ultimate decision maker in the content and form of this article. Also seconding the above notion that the article is a disjointed and borderline unreadable mess. From comments on the talk page I get the impression it was designed by the aforementioned editor as a textbook of sorts for a course he teaches, which is grossly abusing this website. 72.28.82.250 ( talk) 22:16, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
The article says: "Research of the last decades has, however, contested views that it was Robinson Crusoe's realism that ended the sway of "French baroque romances"." Defoe may not be the first who wrote realistic stories, but it seems like it was his novel that represents the genre's final breakthrough. Gulliver's Travels, The Swiss Family Robinson, Treasure Island and The Blue Lagoon all seem to have been influenced by it. From articles on the net: "From the first page, "Robinson Crusoe" conveys the documentary power of courtroom testimony—sometimes dry, but brightened enough by the promise of surprise to keep its audience following along. Early critics—and some more recent ones—have accused Defoe of going too far in creating the novel's solid sense of actuality." Fiction as Authentic as Fact And: "Many of the elements of the modern novel attributed to Defoe -- e.g. the beginnings of psychological realism and a consistent narrative voice -- were anticipated by women writers. Defoe's contribution was in putting them all together and creating out of these elements sustained prose narratives blending physical and psychological realism. Jonathan Swift produced an enduring classic as well with Gulliver's Travels, but despite his brilliance it is the merchant Daniel Defoe, a journalist who saw writing as "a considerable branch of the English commerce" (Essay upon Literature, 1726), who is considered the father of the English novel." Aphra Behn and the Beginnings of a Female Narrative Voice 2A02:FE0:C900:1:CDDB:6BFF:A7E8:FC62 ( talk) 16:46, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
There is a template at the top of the article stating that it was translated from another language, etc, etc.
What language?
Is there a link to the original article, so I can find out whether I might be able to help? Dratman ( talk) 02:40, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
Currently novelist redirects to this article, but as is pretty apparent, is not a topic being covered well throughout. I started a draft at Draft:Novelist with some sourcing, and the beginnings of an outline, and would appreciate help writing and researching the topic, Sadads ( talk) 21:24, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
The following sentence reads like an unacknowledged quotation, and presents a rather biased view, that is not appropriate for an encyclopaedia article. It would be fine as a quotation. There also seems be an error in tense in the final clause -- shouldn't it read "would lead"?
I don't think that the following sentence is correct.
The historical romance has continued, and there are also works in the 20th-century, that are not set in the distant past, like Romance by Joseph Conrad and A Glastonbury Romance by John Cowper Powys, to take a sample. A Romance isn't a romantic novel, but more a Romantic novel, though its roots pre-date the Romantic period. There is possibly a need for a separate article on the Romance, as distinct from love novels ( Romance novels), but the genres of novel and romance are surely intertwined. Rwood128 ( talk) 16:21, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
I don't know if my comment was understood? While the romance tradition of the novel lost its popularity in the 20th-century it didn't end, and I'm not talking about love stories, the pulp-fiction genre:
See also: Dictionary of Literary Terms & Literary Theory, ed. J. A. Cuddon, 4th edition, revised C. E. Preston (1999), pp. 761-2. Cuddon describes Joseph Conrad as "a supreme 'romancer' ". (p. 761). A Glossary of Literary Terms, ed. M. H. Abrahams, 7th edition (1999), defines the difference between novel and romance in terms of "life as it really is" and "life as we would have it be-- more picturesque, adventurous, or heroic than actuality." ("Realism and Naturalism", p. 260). M. H. Abrams includes Saul Bellow in his list of writers of romance ("Novel", p. 192). Isn't there a strong romance element in the work of a novelist like Charles Dickens?
The recent revision is erroneous and still confuses the term romance, as defined here, with romance novel as it is defined in the Wikipedia article. Rwood128 ( talk) 20:45, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
I overlooked this section when I created the section 'Inconsistency in use of term "genre"' (below), but they are broadly addressing the same issue. 98.232.26.108 ( talk) 17:25, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
Hi,
Rwood128. I would suggest adding a small clarification under this section:
"Most European languages use the word "romance" (as in French, [....] for extended narratives", reserving the term "novel" for shorter narratives.
--
Danibo77 (
talk)
22:02, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
English | Short story | Novella (Novelette) | Novel |
German | Novelle | Novelle | Roman |
Scandinavian | Novelle | Novelle (or "Short Roman") | Roman |
Islandic | Novella | Smaasaga | SkaldSaga |
French | Nouvelle | Novella | Le Roman |
Dutch | Novelle | Novelle | Roman |
Portugeese | Conto | Novela | Romance |
Sources: Language-dictionaries from https://kunnskapsforlaget.no Danibo77 ( talk) 12:06, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
Does anyone else think that there's an excessive and therefore distracting use of images in this article? Rwood128 ( talk) 17:47, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
Doesn't the excess hinder rather than help the reader, and so contribute further to a sense of confusion? Rwood128 ( talk) 17:55, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
I don't know the significance of the reference to a high resolution screen? I work on a newish Mac desktop. I appreciate appropriate images and regularly add images to articles that lack them, and agree entirely about the importance of web design. In the case of some articles images are as important as words (see, for example Alleys). But the web design of this article is poor, and the pages on the screen are cluttered, as is the text. I worked on trying to improve the arrangement of images at the bottom sections yesterday, but there are simply too many images, to my eye. Not only do too many images detract from the primary medium, words, but from other images too. Wikipedia isn't a multi-media experience, but an encyclopaedia. Sorry to be so argumentative. Rwood128 ( talk) 19:34, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
I took the liberty of moving most images to the right -- hope that I haven't offended anyone. It no longer looks -- to my eye -- so cluttered. But there are still too many images, and especially too many look- alikes. Rwood128 ( talk) 21:26, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
But for the first paragraph this section makes little sense. There are some interesting ideas about history and fiction buried here, but the writer is unable to articulate them. In particular connecting bridges between ideas and sentences are missing. I therefore suggest, most of it should be deleted. Rwood128 ( talk) 19:01, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
I think this should also be said. Nietzsche's legendary Zarathustra is a prime example of this, also Joyce can most easily be put into this description. 5.43.183.150 ( talk) 20:47, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
This not a comment on the recent change, but on the ugliness of this heading in both versions (academic jargon?). I'm hoping to work on 'the rise of the novel' section as a whole, which, I'd suggest, is too dense/detailed, and maybe the heading can be deleted by combining the 'Legitimating the novel' section with another. Rwood128 ( talk) 14:50, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
The article has a main section entitled "Defining the genre" in which what I would consider the form of the novel is described: Fictional, narrative, prose, printed on paper, etc. In the limited historical context of defining the difference between "novels," "romances," "fabliaux," etc. this may be an accurate use of the word "genre," but in the context I expect most readers will be coming from it's an academic and confusing use of a term which reappears farther on in the article in the more familiar modern sense of novelistic genres such as science fiction, detective, romance (in the modern usage), etc.
In the section "The Victorian period: 1837-1901" the article more or less traces the rise of the broad, modern, use of "novel." The Brontës are said to have written "romances" while the novelist Dickens is said to have been "influenced" by the tradition of romances. In the popular mind and in the corner bookshop, as well as in their own Wikipedia entry, the Brontës were surely novelists just as Dickens was. From that point in the article, we then find that "novel" as a genre is increasingly muddled with "novel" as a form. The last sentence in the section drives this home when it refers to "a whole genre of popular science fiction" with the implication being that novels are, as of roughly 1900, a form for presenting genres rather than a genre with sub-genres.
While the history of novels as a genre is certainly interesting and edifying, the problem I see is that it is just plunged into assuming the reader has the same background as the writer and will instantly understand that the modern use of "novel" as a literary form was preceded by a long developmental phase of "novel" as a genre. This is academic writing being thrust into an article for a popular audience.
Maybe this could be resolved with more framing content to put context on the material, such as "Before novels came to be understood in their modern sense as a broadly encompassing written form, they underwent a long evolution as a narrative genre defined by content and existing alongside other narrative genres. However in common usage, the word novel has now subsumed those genres and they are generally as manifestations of the novel as a form. In modern literary and academic usage, the use of the term 'novel' to distinguish a content genre distinct from other content genres that share the same form persists, but the modern book buying public tends to see anything in this form as 'a novel.'"
I'm not entirely sure that would work though, as so much of the article is written as a primer on the historical genre distinction. It might take a lot of rework to clarify it. Also, since this is hardly my area of expertise (I'm all about mass media), I have no idea if there are even any references out there that would back me up or even if I'm completely and totally wrong.
What I do know is that this is a confusing article that I had to thoroughly dissect to find the stuff I was looking for when I came to it, and now I've gotten completely distracted from my task at hand... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.232.26.108 ( talk) 15:25, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
As I've previously indicated, this article appears to have been originally written in the style of a learned, academic paper by Olaf Simons ( talk. I've tried at times to improve it (simplify the writing), but my focus has of necessity been narrowly focussed on one or two sections at a time. It would be great if someone can properly deal with the kinds of problem suggested here. I don't have the time or interest now. This should be an article of major importance. Rwood128 ( talk) 21:28, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
Large sections of this prolix article are incomprehensible and full of some kind of trendy pseudo-academic, lefty diction. An excellent model for an encyclopedia article on the novel is Anthony Burgess’s article on the subject in Encyclopedia Britannica. Evidently written in the 60s or early 70s it still holds up and Britannica has not seen fit to change a word of it. I suggest people get together and start a new article from scratch. A good example of what I mean is this early sentence: ‘While Ian Watt in The Rise of the Novel (1957) suggests that the novel came into being in the early 18th century, the genre has also been described as possessing "a continuous and comprehensive history of about two thousand years", with historical roots in Classical Greece and Rome, medieval, early modern romance, and in the tradition of the novella.’
That’s 59 words in one sentence, and with a difficult structure of subordinate clauses. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Edruezzi ( talk • contribs) 20:34, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
User:Edruezzi it would be most helpful if you could help improve this article. I have tried in the past and would try and help you -- see comments above. I'd suggest that It needs to be radically reduced in length, and some material maybe moved to new or existing articles. Unless you plan to do it, Edruezzi, the idea of starting from scratch would probably take for ever -- and longer. Rwood128 ( talk) 21:23, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
~~ == Here's a good example of the kind of issue I have with this article. Consider this sentence, from the section on genre fiction: "The most typical stratum of popular fiction is based entirely on genre expectations, which it fixes with serializations and identifiable brand names.". What, if anything, does that sentence mean? Edruezzi. == ~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Edruezzi ( talk • contribs) 23:09, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
There are sections like these that need to be reduced to a sentence or two and integrated into other sections (because they are wordy and digress too far from the main topic). But can such section be saved (are they worth saving) by moving them into other articles or creating new articles? Rwood128 ( talk) 12:23, 13 August 2015 (UTC)
I have changed the heading to 'Nationalism in literature', but suggest now that this section should in fact, either be moved to the article ' Nationalism', or made into a new article -- and therefore deleted here. Is this acceptable and which option is the best to follow? Rwood128 ( talk) 14:12, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
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I'm new to editing on Wikipedia. Started around a week ago. My interests are mostly 20-21st century literature, but not limited to that. But my primary editing interest is to create pages for neglected books and to add cited critical reviews to the many pages of great works that lack them. Is there a forum on here where Wikipedians sharing an interest in fiction discuss page and editing ideas? Wasn't sure if this was a forum like that due to it seeming more formal. I'm looking for a less formal forum where people chat about their various editing projects and can talk about potential page ideas. ANDROMITUS ( talk) 19:53, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
Someone put in the lead the controversial claim that "a novel cannot deal with the fantastic, that is the domain of the romance". Such a claim is not only controversial, but wrong. As no literary critic has ever said that The Lord of The Rings or Frankenstein are not novels for dealing with the fantastic.
If you want to create a page for romance, that is fine. But this page is for novels. And so, it should not be mentioned any romance in the lead paragraphs. If you want, you can inlude some mentions to the comparison between the novel and the romance in later sections, but I recommend creating a new page for romance.
Also, novel and romance are not synonyms, so it is incorrect to put the word romance in bold, as if it is some kind of synonym with novel. As I said, a new page for romance can be created, but no mention to "romance" should be made in the main paragraphs of this article, because it leads to confussion in the general reader. James343e ( talk) 22:28, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
I will work on improving the lede, rather than reverting your revert! In particular the Walter Scott quotations need to be framed better, to prevent the confusion that has led us down this path. And if we were talking face to face – masked, and six feet apart – this misunderstanding would ended long ago. Rwood128 ( talk) 00:55, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
PPS And you don't read what I say. I don't deny that any of the works named are novels. I'm just stating the obvious: there are different kinds of novel. Tolkein was well read, as a scholar, in the romance tradition, and when young influenced by popular romance novels, like She. We aren't talking about love romances by the way. Rwood128 ( talk) 01:23, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
References
I note that the French "also use the terms récit and nouvelle to denote particular kinds of novel", [1] and will try and add something. Rwood128 ( talk) 22:30, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
References
Some potential resources to help improve this article.
"Examples of romance novels are Walter Scott's Rob Roy (1817), Alexander Dumas' The Three Musketeers (1844-4), Emily Bronte's Wuthering Heights, and an important line of American narratives ... Poe ... Cooper ... Hawthorne ... Melville ... Faulkner ... Bellow." (M. H. Abrams, A Glossary of Literary Terms (7th edition), p. 192. Abrams also has this very useful comment: "A common distinction ... is that between two basic types of prose fiction: the realistic novel (which is the novel proper) and the romance" (p.192). It would have ben better if his comment had been more neutral.
Writers like
Joseph Conrad,
Robert Louis Stevenson,
George Meredith,
John Cowper Powys can be added to the list.
Gothic novelists were also romancers: "Succeeding writers who produced Gothic romances include: Matthew ("Monk") Lewis, William Godwin, and Mary Wollenstonecraft Shelley, whose Frankenstein is a striking performance in the tradition" (William Harmon & C, Hugh Holmam, A Handbook to Literature (7th edition), p. 237. Ann Radcliff's "five romances" are also mentioned.
Useful looking sources:
Rwood128 ( talk) 12:15, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
References
I totally agree and originally included a statement calling the distinction 'dubious'. Rwood128 ( talk) 18:01, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
But you are continuing to ignore definitions from reputable sources. Why this prejudice? You seem stuck in a groove Rwood128 ( talk) 18:01, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
"
I don't know why this user keeps obsessed with putting in the lead that novels are realist depictions of society that do not cover marvellous or uncommon events and then keeps deleting sources that suggest otherwise. The lead now includes both the opinion of authors that held that a novel is a realist form of fiction, and those (the majority) of literary critics that consider that novels do not need to be a realist depic of society and can be focused on marvellous or uncommon events. James343e ( talk) 23:26, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
Your revert for vandalism really made me laugh. Thanks. Laughter is much needed. PS Check my editing record. I'm not your enemy. Rwood128 ( talk) 23:40, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
Hi Wikipedians, I am a newbie to join the family.
I saw the novel article finally stop at the 20-century section, no one try to introduce the current novel trending here.
As the current novel is going to the internet, fewer people write and publish their novels through printing first, there could be some reasons such as cost to print the novel and people less to buy the physical book anymore. Therefore, most authors will publish their novels on the internet first nowadays, they get lower costs and a bigger market on the internet, most novels finally become web-fiction when novels going to the internet.
Web-fiction is trending in 21-century, there is also has an article about the web-fiction on the wiki, but I suggest that the novel article can write some turning point to make people understanding what is a web-fiction, leading more people to visit the web-fiction page and more people contribute to it.
To be honest, the web-fiction and novels can be the same thing, people write a novel on the web, it's called web fiction, people write a novel print it to sell in the store, it is called novel as well. There should write something to connect the novel page and web-fiction page better.
Do you agree that we should open a new section about 21-century novels write a brief to conclude the current novel situation? Let me know you agree with my suggestion or not, and I will edit the novel page after that.
ImKaiUn (
talk)
14:02, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
Thanks, ImKaiUn, for this. Your original suggestions and further comments have been most useful. Rwood128 ( talk) 10:41, 27 September 2021 (UTC)
ImKaiUn, thanks, your ideas have helped improve this article. Rwood128 ( talk) 10:04, 28 September 2021 (UTC)
I didn't touch the article but I thought I'd add two cents here about the general lack on consensus I have noted over decades regarding the terms "novel" and "novella." I have seen 1,000 page books referred to as novellas, and I've got several books barely reaching 100 pages in my collection - adaptations of children's films with less word count than this article - referenced as "novels." Then factor in novelizations (think the Doctor Who novelizations by Target Books) and it gets confusing. And that doesn't even take into account academic "gatekeeping" where to some nothing short of Dickens qualifies as a novel; everything else is a novella. 136.159.160.121 ( talk) 16:02, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
I'm sorry that this may seem trivial, but I really don't think JK Rowling's image should be on this page given her political views, bigotry and hatred. I suggest that we replace her image with another author's.
The redirect
Histories (history of the novel) has been listed at
redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the
redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 March 4 § Histories (history of the novel) until a consensus is reached.
Steel1943 (
talk)
21:12, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
The redirect
The novel has been listed at
redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the
redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 March 4 § The novel until a consensus is reached.
Steel1943 (
talk)
21:14, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
The redirect
Candidates for the first novel has been listed at
redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the
redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 March 4 § Candidates for the first novel until a consensus is reached.
Steel1943 (
talk)
21:18, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
The article is mostly about the Western European tradition of the novel. I, therefore, suggest that the discussion of Asian novels needs to be expanded, or the title changed. Rwood128 ( talk) 16:40, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
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A question: The present bibliography is problematic: It does not contain all the articles and books mentioned in the footnotes (and that is good, as they have been quite specific at times to make the exact points). It is secondly not very structured and hence of little help. I would actually like to create a bibliography that somehow follows the chapters of the present article - a bibliography designed to help students dealing with the history of fiction both with general and specific works. Is there an opinion about whether Wikipedia could have a separate page of research dealing with something like the novel - a page that could become relatively large in order to assist those who actually do research on the novel? -- Olaf Simons ( talk) 12:12, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
Hi Aristophanes68. I read the chapter you added - and am not quite sure whether it will lead to anything. Part of what you said has been said in the article's first chapter Antecedents around the world, the other half is the topic of the 20th century chapter I explicitly connected with the issue of globalisation The novel and the global market of texts: 20th- and 21st-century developments. I feel it would make more sense to add additional knowledge under these headings - so far the new chapter does not go far beyond repeating things. -- Olaf Simons ( talk) 11:36, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
Why does Novelist redirect here?
Klkopish added a number of sections, which might receive some more considerations before they get integrated: The major problem is that they continue to speak of the advend of the novel around 1700 - which contradicts the entire article. If anything we mightspeak of a new debate about "novels" and "romances" rising in the 1670s after we had something similar in Chaucer's days. There is no Before Novels in the sense Ian Watt implied or in the sense Paul J. Hunter supported with his book under the title. It only works if one says: These "novels" published before Defoe were no "novels" and if one effectivly avoids them (by focussing on the novel after Defoe). The paragraphs offered remarks on the newness of sequels in the 18th century - said without much knowledge about medieval and early modern fiction and culminated in a number of judgements about the creativity of male and female authors compared, which I read as strongly gender biasd. See for the detaild discussion User talk:Klkopish#Sequels of 18th-Century Novels -- Olaf Simons ( talk) 15:34, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
I'd like to call attention to the fact that this article seems to contradict itself repeatedly. Although it does make brief mention of such ancient romances as Daphnis and Chloe, the Saytircon, the Golden Ass, various works by Lucian like the True Story, etc., it seems oddly at that point to dismiss these narratives as being "satires" or other such nonsense,
whereas elsewhere in the article a novel is defined broadly as a 1. "prose narration" that is 2. distinctly "fictional" as opposed to history - criteria that these ancient novels very clearly fulfill. I realize that this is no doubt do to wider academic confusion over the meaning of the word "novel," but it remains no more acceptable for this reason. Likewise at a separate part Lukacs is cited to distinguish the "novel" from the classical epic (easily found by searching for the hideous epithet "Homerian" in place of "Homeric") on the basis of the fact that epic is supposed to present some sort of unified view and the novel a personal fractured one; here, again, the ancient novel is inexplicably ignored. At yet another point the claim is made that the first romances appeared in southern France, verse romances by Chaucer appearing "much later;" I find this statement extremely puzzling because, sorting from least to most importance: 1. Chaucer did not only write in verse; 2. the term "romance" itself seems hardly less well defined than the term "novel"; 3. even following this argument, the romances of southern France have clear ties to earlier Latin and Greek romances in particular, notable the Alexander Romance which, in many varied guises doubtless, is directly traceable back to antiquity; and 4. when I looked up the citation for this odd statement, I found that it dated from the 17th century (!), which is obviously problematic for many reasons.
Clearly the only logical way to present this article is beginning chronologically with ancient prose narratives, then medieval ones, then modern and so on, making reference to the fact at the beginning perhaps that in the 18th and 19th century European tradition, the word "novel" was primarily understood more strictly to refer to the extremely personal and domestic tradition of prose narrative originating in, perhaps, late 17th century France; but that certainly by the time that the modernist novel had exceeded the bounds of this form in the 20th century, this older definition was in need of an expansion, without which such common terms as the "ancient novel" would make little sense. Without such restructuring I'm afraid this article is very much a jumble. For example, while I wholly appreciate the references to non-European pre-modern prose fiction - and while the cautionary explanation is undoubtedly useful, that is that much of this fiction was, however, unlikely to influence the modern European novel as it became a dominant form in the 18th century - as it is, it makes very little sense that this literature should be discussed before the classical texts I've mentioned above, since these are 1. part of the European tradition which undeniably dominates this article; 2. in terms of influence on the stricter definition of novel far more relevant - certainly Lucian at least was being read in 18th century Europe (!); and most importantly 3. these classical novels are far earlier than the non-European texts in any case (!!), so why in the world should they be mentioned only later?
Well, I suppose the discovery that the term "novel" may not be always particularly useful isn't exactly a new one; but again, if we explain at the beginning that the word can refer either to prose fiction in general or the "novel" as defined in the 18th century in particular, and then proceed to sort all these works on the basis of chronology, I do believe that this article would be greatly improved. Parenthetically, it might also make sense to make brief reference to earlier epic narrative as a predecessor to the classical novel, explaining however that the epic tradition is usually treated separately from that of prose fiction. I very much hope that someone actually takes the effort to read these suggestions and implement the changes required and which, I'm afraid, I have neither the time nor the presumption to take care of myself. Lastly, and somewhat complicating things, there is an important tradition "novels in verse" such as Evgeny Onegin and Don Juan - both works of the highest significance to literary history - which, without compromising my earlier statements, is entirely ignored by this article and probably should not be. I apologize for the inexcusable inelegance of these remarks but must be going. ( 151.50.13.245 ( talk) 23:01, 3 April 2010 (UTC))
I agree that the article should be based on the current meaning of novel. The issue of how the 17th-18th century had a different meaning for the word is really a side article. I.e., "Robinson Crusoe is now considered to be a novel. (It wasn't considered such at the time because of the different 18th-century connotation of novel, see detailed article.)" Sluggoster ( talk) 21:45, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
This article feels like a bit of a conceptual mess to me, and I generally agree with the anon user 151. The idea that there is a clear distinction to be made between a "novel" and a "romance" seems particularly problematic to me, when in French and German the word for novel is "Roman," which is also the word for "romance." As it stands, the article is an interesting essay, but feels close to OR, in the way it meanders about with a lot of very specific genealogies and such. It's hard to advocate scrapping it, though, unless something was available to go in its place besides a stub. But we need something, I think, that is a bit more descriptive and a bit less analytical. john k ( talk) 07:14, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
When talking about Amadis de Gaula as the first best-seller it's not correct to state that the book is portuguese. Even if the origins of the narration are not clear, in the wikipedia entrance to this novel it's considered an older version from Joao de Lobeira, who himself based is lost work on an even older castillian narration. Anyway wether the origin is portuguese or castillian, the book which was a best-seller was the verion from Garcia de Montalvo, and it's difficult to believe the older versions from the XVth century were written in the same style). So this text: "The second major development is fixed to a single title: The Portuguese Amadis de Gaula became the first best-seller of modern fiction" should be changed to "The second major development is fixed to a single title: The Spanish Amadis de Gaula, by García Montalvo became the first best-seller of modern fiction" -- J1sp2sp ( talk) 19:50, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
The history section is more than large and detailed enough for its own article. It's larger and more detailed than most articles we have already. What I'm saying is that it is incredibly, overwhelming big, much more so than what could be kept in a summary article. Just add an intro paragraph and we can move it as-is. And then a massive clean-up is probably in order because it has a strong tendency to go off into polemics and academic analysis. Zazaban ( talk) 02:40, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
Much of the article (what I read of it, anyway) appears to be belabouring the separation of "novels" from "historical writing". And yet, for the modern reader, at least, the salient distinction should surely be between the novel and the romance.
I guess my questions must be:
203.169.48.225 ( talk) 06:07, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
2012. Novel#A fictional narrative needs some rewriting with attention to the fact that it concerns 18th century debate and development. The first three sentences are ok: present tense; present tense note that historical perspective is necessary; past tense beginning to provide that perspective. ("In a historical perspective they are problematic criteria. Histories were supposed to be narrative projects ...") It reverts to present tense before the end of the first par, however, maintains it thruout the second par, and waffles in the third par.
Offhand I suggest rewriting the section in past tense thruout, except for those first two sentences and one late sentence that may be stated parenthetically: "The word novel can appear on book covers and title pages; the artistic effort or the sheer suspense created can find a remark in a preface or on the blurb."
This section doesn't identify any sources. The only footnote to this subsection or the preceding section lead (1.0 and 1.1) gives an illustration. -- P64 ( talk) 15:05, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
what is the reason behind the rise of the novel 85.195.186.70 ( talk) 11:10, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
IMO the section on novel length not only focuses way too much on snoopy and his "novel", but also describes them both in a primarily in-universe way. For example, I think it is hardly necessary to include snoopy's entire fictional novel, as inferred from the strips. It is also not even noted that it is intended as a parody of traditional epic novels, and subjects it to entirely serious literary criticism. I think almost all mention of snoopy should removed from that section, as it has very little to do with the general topic of "novels". Sithman VIII !! 20:39, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
It appears the Snoopy section is lifted directly from a blog. Or perhaps the blog post is lifted from Wiki. MlleDiderot ( talk) 01:14, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
In the Oxford English Dictionary (surely no source is more reliable for defining something) a novel is defined as a "fictitious prose narrative of book-length". http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/novel has either "fictitious" or "fictitious or partly ficticious".
This doesn't mean that a novel can't be "true" or more revealing than a history. But attempts to rededfine a novel should go further down the article, not be in the lead. BillMasen ( talk) 19:06, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
Well so far the criterion comes in the second paragraph. I had formulated the first to include all things that must be the case, and the second to add all controversial issues. I think it is wise to do it this way. Write as exactly as you can about your last day, it will be a novel, though we can both decide to cut out any bit of fictionality. -- Olaf Simons ( talk) 10:17, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
Why is the idea that authors, of high literature or otherwise, are motivated by some kind of an urge to write called a mythology? Following "inner voices, a feeling for injustice, an urge to face a personal trauma" etc. are standard reasons given by most writers for what makes them write. After all, most people who choose to pursue a particular line of work (not to mention something as precarious and unconventional as fiction writing) say they answer some kind of a calling, or at least a personal inclination. I don't think it's some kind of ratified, elitist, self-serving illusion, but a concert and accurate statement of motivation (in fiction and other pursuits as well). I suggest the phrase "popular mythology" be removed. If you like, the claims of answering some inner voice do not have to be stated as an objective fact. You can enclose the phrase "their inner voices ... artistic vision" in quotation marks. This, I think, would be a good compromise . —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.229.237.39 ( talk) 13:34, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
I'm not sure that claims about the urge to write sell anything (as you state in the article, bestselling authors do not usually entertain such views). If these ideas do pay off in some way (say in the form of elite recognition) this does not in itself make them myths. Just because a claim is expedient does not automatically invalidate it. I don’t think postmodernist critiques of authorship are quite relevant either (by the way, Barthes’ “Death of the Author” would be the seminal statement here). What these critics attempted to undermine was the image of the author as a privileged originator of meaning, or as an individual endowed with some unique talent. Why someone chooses to become a writer of fiction is a different, and a more mundane issue in my opinion. Just as practitioners in many fields are motivated by a “calling”, a sense of responsibility, writers (at least of “serious fiction”) are motivated by some kind of an urge to express themselves, work out some inner struggles, or deal with a social/philosophical issues. Of course, such claims are sometimes used to elevate authors to the exalted heights of oracles, but this does not mean the basic idea is entirely wrong. I understand you probably use the term “myth” in the more general sense found in Barthes, something like a cultural construct. But this seems to me to border on original research. (By the way, your very first statement asserts the point you're trying to make, which sounds like begging the question). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.250.250.23 ( talk) 07:53, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
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The article states that the Great Vowel Shift affected almost all European languages. I have only ever heard it discussed in English. The basic point remains, that prose is easier to translate than verse, if one wants to translate the verse form too, but I believe the reference to the Great Vowel Shift is inaccurate here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.211.206.44 ( talk) 17:36, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
The article states, in the section about Romances, that "the Great Vowel Shift affected almost all European languages." I have only ever heard it discussed in English. The basic point remains, that prose is easier to translate than verse, if one wants to translate the verse form too, but I believe the reference to the Great Vowel Shift is inaccurate here. Wikipedia's own page on the GVS, linked, only discusses it in English, so one of the two pages is clearly in need of editing. 66.211.206.44 ( talk) 17:40, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
Does anyone else think that the bulk of this article is a subjective mess? It clearly dominated by a single writer's personal view of the history of the novel. One can see this just by looking at the article's organization and the titles of sub-sections. I'm sorry that I don't have time right now to be more specific, but reading this entry is much more like reading Moretti or McKeon than an encyclopedia. Some of the comments on the history section share this concern. My knee-jerk reaction is that the whole thing should be scrapped and rebuilt more along the lines of Wikipedia standards, but I think it could be greatly improved by moving a lot of the material to a separate entry on Theory of the Novel, organized around the published work of particular scholars. At the very least, there needs to be some recognition of the theory implicit in histories of the novel. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.134.100.143 ( talk) 14:46, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
It seems strange to me that people like Apuleius, Chariton, Petronius Arbiter, Longus and the like never get mention in discussion of the formative period of the Western novel. Most of them are fluff, I won't deny, but the The Golden Ass is legitimate literature, written in prose and of book length, from the 2nd century AD. It's a secondary text in the tradition of Latin classics, but not an unimportant one by any measure, and I feel it should at least get a mention as an early - if exceptional - instance of the art form. 108.18.215.24 ( talk) 01:57, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
Kafka's The Metamorphosis is mentioned, but is not a novel, rather a short story. The summary mentions cockroach, whereas the original doesn't define the creature. I suggest to drop the work in this context. -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 22:17, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
I happened across this term for the first time in this article and it seems unnecessarily pejorative and insulting of genre fiction. I googled it and nothing is coming up, so I question that it exists at all as a term. Surely 'popular fiction' or 'genre fiction' would be superior. And incidentally, the genre of 'literature', characterised by linguistic rewards (as opposed to love, adventure, etc) is referred to as 'high literature' in this article. Again, I'm puzzled by this reference, as the shelves in the bookshop for those books are just the same height as the normal ones. :-) Seriously, is that a real term? Summerdoor ( talk) 21:02, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
"Trivialliteratur" is German for light fiction. Grisunge ( talk) 11:59, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
So, what is a modern novel? Brusegadi ( talk) 21:31, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
What the guy above said. 112.140.79.64 ( talk) 07:35, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
The following sentence is problematic: "The first modern novel has generally been ascribed to a series of picaresque novels, most famously Don Quixote (1605) by Miguel de Cervantes." Indeed the European novel is generally seen as beginning with works like Don Quixote, but the adjective modern is not normally used in this context, but rather for recent and contemporary novels. A more correct title for the article might be "The rise of the novel", but maybe this article should be merged with the very comprehensive main novel article? Rwood128 ( talk) 18:20, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
This page is not readable because it is not organized. Topics move from one to another in continuous succession but seemingly randomly. There is no chronological order. You have one topic discussing 19th century novels, then the topic that follows starts discussing 17th century novels, then somewhere down the line, you have topic that discusses 19th century novels again (saying the same thing), and then the next topic it goes back to discussing some aspect of 18th, 17, 15th century novels. Then you have another topic that talks about 19th century novels again. The topics do not relate to one another. The section on 20th century and 21 century starts off by talking about the demise of the novel and the advent of ebooks and harry potter. I did not know those were issues in the 1900s-1930s.
It is utterly confusing and the article, as long as it is, and being arranged in this arbitrary manner, is not navigable.
JohnWycliff ( talk) 16:39, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
I've been trying to think of ways to bring order to the muddle. Something like the section "The words 'novel' and 'romance'" can probably be merged into other sections, but in the end a chronological, century by century, approach is probably needed. Currently it reads like a series of separate essays on the novel. A good, short overview at the start would greatly help. The idea that the problem is related to the global nature of Wikipedia is erroneous. Rather the problem is that overall organization hasn't been attended to. Rwood128 ( talk) 01:21, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
Thanks Sadads. To be honest at the moment I'm still overwhelmed by the muddle, and the sheer volume of content.
Am I right in thinking that your main point is that this article should concentrate on the history of the novel and that certain sections should be moved into new articles? That could be a solution. Topics like "Writing literary theory" and "Writing world history" may well need to be touched on here, but they are overwhelmingly long for the current article. Other examples would be the sections "Writing for the market of popular fiction" and "The novel and the global market". But do we want four new articles? Perhaps there are articles that already exist that could better accommodate the bulk of this material? For example, might we move most of "Writinging for the market of popular fiction" to Popular fiction and then add a main page link? Finding more appropriate homes for certain sections sounds like a great idea -- there may well be similar possibilities elsewhere in the article.
For now, until I'm a little more familiar with the overall content, I plan to work mainly on correcting errors in content and style. I presume that your comment, re "problems related to the idea of 'novel' within the history" refers to my edits on the romance genre. I plan only to correct obvious errors, or confusion re the development of the main romance genre, in relation to love story sub-genre.
On other points, I'm inclined to think that some headings could be made more effective -- they tend to sound too much like newspaper headlines and often don't give sufficient guidance re content.
A better introduction to the article is also needed, one that fully, though briefly, surveys the topic, and especially clearly defines what it should include. The section "Definitions" is introductory but it is insufficiently focussed, and this section heading is too vague. A major improvement might be to make a (very tight) précis of this whole section.
A slimmed down article, that focussed more narrowly on the history and development of the novel, would be clearer and more readable. Rwood128 ( talk) 14:34, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
Good. i agree with the adjustments that you made to my recent edits. Tried to be bold and knew that that I might not always get it exactly right. I hope that the removal of the sub-sets of dates makes the document clearer. The idea of creating a new History of the novel article seems sensible, though I do still wonder why the existing article, in a revised form shouldn't be the portal? But I believe that we should at least try to deal "with the muddle of the history right now". I may be able to do something, over time, to create more coherence. Rwood128 ( talk) 16:41, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
This article seems to be controlled by a single author, who considers it 'his' article, and seems to come into the talk page, responding to all comments as though he is the ultimate decision maker in the content and form of this article. Also seconding the above notion that the article is a disjointed and borderline unreadable mess. From comments on the talk page I get the impression it was designed by the aforementioned editor as a textbook of sorts for a course he teaches, which is grossly abusing this website. 72.28.82.250 ( talk) 22:16, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
The article says: "Research of the last decades has, however, contested views that it was Robinson Crusoe's realism that ended the sway of "French baroque romances"." Defoe may not be the first who wrote realistic stories, but it seems like it was his novel that represents the genre's final breakthrough. Gulliver's Travels, The Swiss Family Robinson, Treasure Island and The Blue Lagoon all seem to have been influenced by it. From articles on the net: "From the first page, "Robinson Crusoe" conveys the documentary power of courtroom testimony—sometimes dry, but brightened enough by the promise of surprise to keep its audience following along. Early critics—and some more recent ones—have accused Defoe of going too far in creating the novel's solid sense of actuality." Fiction as Authentic as Fact And: "Many of the elements of the modern novel attributed to Defoe -- e.g. the beginnings of psychological realism and a consistent narrative voice -- were anticipated by women writers. Defoe's contribution was in putting them all together and creating out of these elements sustained prose narratives blending physical and psychological realism. Jonathan Swift produced an enduring classic as well with Gulliver's Travels, but despite his brilliance it is the merchant Daniel Defoe, a journalist who saw writing as "a considerable branch of the English commerce" (Essay upon Literature, 1726), who is considered the father of the English novel." Aphra Behn and the Beginnings of a Female Narrative Voice 2A02:FE0:C900:1:CDDB:6BFF:A7E8:FC62 ( talk) 16:46, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
There is a template at the top of the article stating that it was translated from another language, etc, etc.
What language?
Is there a link to the original article, so I can find out whether I might be able to help? Dratman ( talk) 02:40, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
Currently novelist redirects to this article, but as is pretty apparent, is not a topic being covered well throughout. I started a draft at Draft:Novelist with some sourcing, and the beginnings of an outline, and would appreciate help writing and researching the topic, Sadads ( talk) 21:24, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
The following sentence reads like an unacknowledged quotation, and presents a rather biased view, that is not appropriate for an encyclopaedia article. It would be fine as a quotation. There also seems be an error in tense in the final clause -- shouldn't it read "would lead"?
I don't think that the following sentence is correct.
The historical romance has continued, and there are also works in the 20th-century, that are not set in the distant past, like Romance by Joseph Conrad and A Glastonbury Romance by John Cowper Powys, to take a sample. A Romance isn't a romantic novel, but more a Romantic novel, though its roots pre-date the Romantic period. There is possibly a need for a separate article on the Romance, as distinct from love novels ( Romance novels), but the genres of novel and romance are surely intertwined. Rwood128 ( talk) 16:21, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
I don't know if my comment was understood? While the romance tradition of the novel lost its popularity in the 20th-century it didn't end, and I'm not talking about love stories, the pulp-fiction genre:
See also: Dictionary of Literary Terms & Literary Theory, ed. J. A. Cuddon, 4th edition, revised C. E. Preston (1999), pp. 761-2. Cuddon describes Joseph Conrad as "a supreme 'romancer' ". (p. 761). A Glossary of Literary Terms, ed. M. H. Abrahams, 7th edition (1999), defines the difference between novel and romance in terms of "life as it really is" and "life as we would have it be-- more picturesque, adventurous, or heroic than actuality." ("Realism and Naturalism", p. 260). M. H. Abrams includes Saul Bellow in his list of writers of romance ("Novel", p. 192). Isn't there a strong romance element in the work of a novelist like Charles Dickens?
The recent revision is erroneous and still confuses the term romance, as defined here, with romance novel as it is defined in the Wikipedia article. Rwood128 ( talk) 20:45, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
I overlooked this section when I created the section 'Inconsistency in use of term "genre"' (below), but they are broadly addressing the same issue. 98.232.26.108 ( talk) 17:25, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
Hi,
Rwood128. I would suggest adding a small clarification under this section:
"Most European languages use the word "romance" (as in French, [....] for extended narratives", reserving the term "novel" for shorter narratives.
--
Danibo77 (
talk)
22:02, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
English | Short story | Novella (Novelette) | Novel |
German | Novelle | Novelle | Roman |
Scandinavian | Novelle | Novelle (or "Short Roman") | Roman |
Islandic | Novella | Smaasaga | SkaldSaga |
French | Nouvelle | Novella | Le Roman |
Dutch | Novelle | Novelle | Roman |
Portugeese | Conto | Novela | Romance |
Sources: Language-dictionaries from https://kunnskapsforlaget.no Danibo77 ( talk) 12:06, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
Does anyone else think that there's an excessive and therefore distracting use of images in this article? Rwood128 ( talk) 17:47, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
Doesn't the excess hinder rather than help the reader, and so contribute further to a sense of confusion? Rwood128 ( talk) 17:55, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
I don't know the significance of the reference to a high resolution screen? I work on a newish Mac desktop. I appreciate appropriate images and regularly add images to articles that lack them, and agree entirely about the importance of web design. In the case of some articles images are as important as words (see, for example Alleys). But the web design of this article is poor, and the pages on the screen are cluttered, as is the text. I worked on trying to improve the arrangement of images at the bottom sections yesterday, but there are simply too many images, to my eye. Not only do too many images detract from the primary medium, words, but from other images too. Wikipedia isn't a multi-media experience, but an encyclopaedia. Sorry to be so argumentative. Rwood128 ( talk) 19:34, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
I took the liberty of moving most images to the right -- hope that I haven't offended anyone. It no longer looks -- to my eye -- so cluttered. But there are still too many images, and especially too many look- alikes. Rwood128 ( talk) 21:26, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
But for the first paragraph this section makes little sense. There are some interesting ideas about history and fiction buried here, but the writer is unable to articulate them. In particular connecting bridges between ideas and sentences are missing. I therefore suggest, most of it should be deleted. Rwood128 ( talk) 19:01, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
I think this should also be said. Nietzsche's legendary Zarathustra is a prime example of this, also Joyce can most easily be put into this description. 5.43.183.150 ( talk) 20:47, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
This not a comment on the recent change, but on the ugliness of this heading in both versions (academic jargon?). I'm hoping to work on 'the rise of the novel' section as a whole, which, I'd suggest, is too dense/detailed, and maybe the heading can be deleted by combining the 'Legitimating the novel' section with another. Rwood128 ( talk) 14:50, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
The article has a main section entitled "Defining the genre" in which what I would consider the form of the novel is described: Fictional, narrative, prose, printed on paper, etc. In the limited historical context of defining the difference between "novels," "romances," "fabliaux," etc. this may be an accurate use of the word "genre," but in the context I expect most readers will be coming from it's an academic and confusing use of a term which reappears farther on in the article in the more familiar modern sense of novelistic genres such as science fiction, detective, romance (in the modern usage), etc.
In the section "The Victorian period: 1837-1901" the article more or less traces the rise of the broad, modern, use of "novel." The Brontës are said to have written "romances" while the novelist Dickens is said to have been "influenced" by the tradition of romances. In the popular mind and in the corner bookshop, as well as in their own Wikipedia entry, the Brontës were surely novelists just as Dickens was. From that point in the article, we then find that "novel" as a genre is increasingly muddled with "novel" as a form. The last sentence in the section drives this home when it refers to "a whole genre of popular science fiction" with the implication being that novels are, as of roughly 1900, a form for presenting genres rather than a genre with sub-genres.
While the history of novels as a genre is certainly interesting and edifying, the problem I see is that it is just plunged into assuming the reader has the same background as the writer and will instantly understand that the modern use of "novel" as a literary form was preceded by a long developmental phase of "novel" as a genre. This is academic writing being thrust into an article for a popular audience.
Maybe this could be resolved with more framing content to put context on the material, such as "Before novels came to be understood in their modern sense as a broadly encompassing written form, they underwent a long evolution as a narrative genre defined by content and existing alongside other narrative genres. However in common usage, the word novel has now subsumed those genres and they are generally as manifestations of the novel as a form. In modern literary and academic usage, the use of the term 'novel' to distinguish a content genre distinct from other content genres that share the same form persists, but the modern book buying public tends to see anything in this form as 'a novel.'"
I'm not entirely sure that would work though, as so much of the article is written as a primer on the historical genre distinction. It might take a lot of rework to clarify it. Also, since this is hardly my area of expertise (I'm all about mass media), I have no idea if there are even any references out there that would back me up or even if I'm completely and totally wrong.
What I do know is that this is a confusing article that I had to thoroughly dissect to find the stuff I was looking for when I came to it, and now I've gotten completely distracted from my task at hand... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.232.26.108 ( talk) 15:25, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
As I've previously indicated, this article appears to have been originally written in the style of a learned, academic paper by Olaf Simons ( talk. I've tried at times to improve it (simplify the writing), but my focus has of necessity been narrowly focussed on one or two sections at a time. It would be great if someone can properly deal with the kinds of problem suggested here. I don't have the time or interest now. This should be an article of major importance. Rwood128 ( talk) 21:28, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
Large sections of this prolix article are incomprehensible and full of some kind of trendy pseudo-academic, lefty diction. An excellent model for an encyclopedia article on the novel is Anthony Burgess’s article on the subject in Encyclopedia Britannica. Evidently written in the 60s or early 70s it still holds up and Britannica has not seen fit to change a word of it. I suggest people get together and start a new article from scratch. A good example of what I mean is this early sentence: ‘While Ian Watt in The Rise of the Novel (1957) suggests that the novel came into being in the early 18th century, the genre has also been described as possessing "a continuous and comprehensive history of about two thousand years", with historical roots in Classical Greece and Rome, medieval, early modern romance, and in the tradition of the novella.’
That’s 59 words in one sentence, and with a difficult structure of subordinate clauses. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Edruezzi ( talk • contribs) 20:34, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
User:Edruezzi it would be most helpful if you could help improve this article. I have tried in the past and would try and help you -- see comments above. I'd suggest that It needs to be radically reduced in length, and some material maybe moved to new or existing articles. Unless you plan to do it, Edruezzi, the idea of starting from scratch would probably take for ever -- and longer. Rwood128 ( talk) 21:23, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
~~ == Here's a good example of the kind of issue I have with this article. Consider this sentence, from the section on genre fiction: "The most typical stratum of popular fiction is based entirely on genre expectations, which it fixes with serializations and identifiable brand names.". What, if anything, does that sentence mean? Edruezzi. == ~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Edruezzi ( talk • contribs) 23:09, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
There are sections like these that need to be reduced to a sentence or two and integrated into other sections (because they are wordy and digress too far from the main topic). But can such section be saved (are they worth saving) by moving them into other articles or creating new articles? Rwood128 ( talk) 12:23, 13 August 2015 (UTC)
I have changed the heading to 'Nationalism in literature', but suggest now that this section should in fact, either be moved to the article ' Nationalism', or made into a new article -- and therefore deleted here. Is this acceptable and which option is the best to follow? Rwood128 ( talk) 14:12, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
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I'm new to editing on Wikipedia. Started around a week ago. My interests are mostly 20-21st century literature, but not limited to that. But my primary editing interest is to create pages for neglected books and to add cited critical reviews to the many pages of great works that lack them. Is there a forum on here where Wikipedians sharing an interest in fiction discuss page and editing ideas? Wasn't sure if this was a forum like that due to it seeming more formal. I'm looking for a less formal forum where people chat about their various editing projects and can talk about potential page ideas. ANDROMITUS ( talk) 19:53, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
Someone put in the lead the controversial claim that "a novel cannot deal with the fantastic, that is the domain of the romance". Such a claim is not only controversial, but wrong. As no literary critic has ever said that The Lord of The Rings or Frankenstein are not novels for dealing with the fantastic.
If you want to create a page for romance, that is fine. But this page is for novels. And so, it should not be mentioned any romance in the lead paragraphs. If you want, you can inlude some mentions to the comparison between the novel and the romance in later sections, but I recommend creating a new page for romance.
Also, novel and romance are not synonyms, so it is incorrect to put the word romance in bold, as if it is some kind of synonym with novel. As I said, a new page for romance can be created, but no mention to "romance" should be made in the main paragraphs of this article, because it leads to confussion in the general reader. James343e ( talk) 22:28, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
I will work on improving the lede, rather than reverting your revert! In particular the Walter Scott quotations need to be framed better, to prevent the confusion that has led us down this path. And if we were talking face to face – masked, and six feet apart – this misunderstanding would ended long ago. Rwood128 ( talk) 00:55, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
PPS And you don't read what I say. I don't deny that any of the works named are novels. I'm just stating the obvious: there are different kinds of novel. Tolkein was well read, as a scholar, in the romance tradition, and when young influenced by popular romance novels, like She. We aren't talking about love romances by the way. Rwood128 ( talk) 01:23, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
References
I note that the French "also use the terms récit and nouvelle to denote particular kinds of novel", [1] and will try and add something. Rwood128 ( talk) 22:30, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
References
Some potential resources to help improve this article.
"Examples of romance novels are Walter Scott's Rob Roy (1817), Alexander Dumas' The Three Musketeers (1844-4), Emily Bronte's Wuthering Heights, and an important line of American narratives ... Poe ... Cooper ... Hawthorne ... Melville ... Faulkner ... Bellow." (M. H. Abrams, A Glossary of Literary Terms (7th edition), p. 192. Abrams also has this very useful comment: "A common distinction ... is that between two basic types of prose fiction: the realistic novel (which is the novel proper) and the romance" (p.192). It would have ben better if his comment had been more neutral.
Writers like
Joseph Conrad,
Robert Louis Stevenson,
George Meredith,
John Cowper Powys can be added to the list.
Gothic novelists were also romancers: "Succeeding writers who produced Gothic romances include: Matthew ("Monk") Lewis, William Godwin, and Mary Wollenstonecraft Shelley, whose Frankenstein is a striking performance in the tradition" (William Harmon & C, Hugh Holmam, A Handbook to Literature (7th edition), p. 237. Ann Radcliff's "five romances" are also mentioned.
Useful looking sources:
Rwood128 ( talk) 12:15, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
References
I totally agree and originally included a statement calling the distinction 'dubious'. Rwood128 ( talk) 18:01, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
But you are continuing to ignore definitions from reputable sources. Why this prejudice? You seem stuck in a groove Rwood128 ( talk) 18:01, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
"
I don't know why this user keeps obsessed with putting in the lead that novels are realist depictions of society that do not cover marvellous or uncommon events and then keeps deleting sources that suggest otherwise. The lead now includes both the opinion of authors that held that a novel is a realist form of fiction, and those (the majority) of literary critics that consider that novels do not need to be a realist depic of society and can be focused on marvellous or uncommon events. James343e ( talk) 23:26, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
Your revert for vandalism really made me laugh. Thanks. Laughter is much needed. PS Check my editing record. I'm not your enemy. Rwood128 ( talk) 23:40, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
Hi Wikipedians, I am a newbie to join the family.
I saw the novel article finally stop at the 20-century section, no one try to introduce the current novel trending here.
As the current novel is going to the internet, fewer people write and publish their novels through printing first, there could be some reasons such as cost to print the novel and people less to buy the physical book anymore. Therefore, most authors will publish their novels on the internet first nowadays, they get lower costs and a bigger market on the internet, most novels finally become web-fiction when novels going to the internet.
Web-fiction is trending in 21-century, there is also has an article about the web-fiction on the wiki, but I suggest that the novel article can write some turning point to make people understanding what is a web-fiction, leading more people to visit the web-fiction page and more people contribute to it.
To be honest, the web-fiction and novels can be the same thing, people write a novel on the web, it's called web fiction, people write a novel print it to sell in the store, it is called novel as well. There should write something to connect the novel page and web-fiction page better.
Do you agree that we should open a new section about 21-century novels write a brief to conclude the current novel situation? Let me know you agree with my suggestion or not, and I will edit the novel page after that.
ImKaiUn (
talk)
14:02, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
Thanks, ImKaiUn, for this. Your original suggestions and further comments have been most useful. Rwood128 ( talk) 10:41, 27 September 2021 (UTC)
ImKaiUn, thanks, your ideas have helped improve this article. Rwood128 ( talk) 10:04, 28 September 2021 (UTC)
I didn't touch the article but I thought I'd add two cents here about the general lack on consensus I have noted over decades regarding the terms "novel" and "novella." I have seen 1,000 page books referred to as novellas, and I've got several books barely reaching 100 pages in my collection - adaptations of children's films with less word count than this article - referenced as "novels." Then factor in novelizations (think the Doctor Who novelizations by Target Books) and it gets confusing. And that doesn't even take into account academic "gatekeeping" where to some nothing short of Dickens qualifies as a novel; everything else is a novella. 136.159.160.121 ( talk) 16:02, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
I'm sorry that this may seem trivial, but I really don't think JK Rowling's image should be on this page given her political views, bigotry and hatred. I suggest that we replace her image with another author's.
The redirect
Histories (history of the novel) has been listed at
redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the
redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 March 4 § Histories (history of the novel) until a consensus is reached.
Steel1943 (
talk)
21:12, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
The redirect
The novel has been listed at
redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the
redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 March 4 § The novel until a consensus is reached.
Steel1943 (
talk)
21:14, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
The redirect
Candidates for the first novel has been listed at
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Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 March 4 § Candidates for the first novel until a consensus is reached.
Steel1943 (
talk)
21:18, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
The article is mostly about the Western European tradition of the novel. I, therefore, suggest that the discussion of Asian novels needs to be expanded, or the title changed. Rwood128 ( talk) 16:40, 9 March 2024 (UTC)