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Northern and southern China article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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On 18 October 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved to North–south divide in China. The result of the discussion was not moved. |
The identification of the Huai River as the historical boundary between north and south China is spot on. However, in modern China the boundary is generally perceived as the Yangtze River. Perhaps a note on this should be incorporated. Bathrobe — Preceding undated comment added 00:26, 17 February 2005 (UTC)
Why is the split necessary at all? The split off articles are identical to the original article, which is pointless. This current article is more about the north-south split itself in any case; after all, the two concepts are basically defined in contrast to each other, and this article focuses on that by describing what distinguishes the two halves. I don't see why information about each of the two regions can't be presented in this current, merged form. -- ran ( talk) 02:37, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)
Should it be northern and southern instead? :-) — Insta ntnood 13:12, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
Yes, it sounds like North Korea and South Korea. -- ran ( talk) 02:32, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
The genetic differences are not limited to the so call Northern and Sourthern divide. Also the concept of the northern and sourthern are different to different groups of people. For an example people from Shanghai (the Shanghaians) see themself as Sourtherners, but the Cantonese will never see them as Sourtherners. Instead, the Cantonese people see the Shanghaians (people from Shanghai) more like aliens from the north. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.106.19.148 ( talk) 11:05, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
What about a short paragraph summarizing the cultural differences between Northern and Southern Chinese? Any experts on Chinese culture want to give it a shot? theboogeyman 05:29, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
To the Cantonese people, Fujianese are considered as Southern Chinese. The people who live north of the Yangtze River, are Northern Chinese. Sonic99 ( talk) 04:33, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
When people are talking about the word Cantonese, what does that usually mean? As far as I can tell, it should all be 廣府人 and 廣府話 centric. In other word, it should not include non-廣府人 or non-廣府話 Guangdonese people or languages. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.106.19.148 ( talk) 11:19, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
South China redirects here, Northern and southern China, but it is somehow not desirable. In many case South China means 華南 or 南華, a region of South China, just like 華東 (East China), 華北 (North China), 東北 (Northeast China), 西南 (Southwest China), 華中 (Central China) and so on. But the article suddenly jumps to the comparison of Northern and southern China. It is simply not what South China means. — HenryLi ( Talk) 07:57, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Source added: Eberhard, Wolfram (1965). "Chinese Regional Stereotypes." Asian Survey, vol. 5, no. 12 (December 1965), pp. 596-608. This not only presents 20th century survey data, but also chronicles stereotypes in the historical record in various periods of Chinese history dating back to 400 B.C. Badagnani 04:04, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Another source added: Morgan, Stephen L. (2000). "Richer and Taller: Stature and Living Standards in China, 1979-1995." The China Journal, no. 44 (July 2000), pp. 1-39. Badagnani 04:14, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
This is to address the addition of the line within the Southern Chinese stereotypes that "they resemble other Southeast Asians". While you can imply that Southern Chinese share features that can be similar to Southeast Asians, I have to say that the formation of such sentence was done very poorly. To say they resemble other southeast Asians would be to imply that the southern Chinese were indeed in the southeast Asian category all along. That point is very debatable and controversial. Some may have strong views on that considering there have been wars fought over it. It would have been far better to have said it without the "other". If any others feel the need to add that line in, then it would also be necessary to add an additional stereotypes to the Northern Chinese category, perhaps bringing up their Mongolian or Manchurian neighbors. Otherwise it would seem that this is going towards a more prejudiced area. To try to maintain as much of an unbiased page as much as possible, I have deleted that particular sentence.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Ludacris321 ( talk • contribs) 22:23, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
oh really? to some, the 江南 region is also considered to be 南方, and the region, especially Shanghai, is known to produce fair-skinned people. and is Sichuan, which also has a great deal of pales, exactly northern (by most accounts), either? The climatic data, especially on humidity and total amount of sunshine, would also disagree with the article's assertions, too. -- HXL 's Roundtable, and Record 23:54, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
GuerillaRenMin's source is a British travel book, it is not a trustworthy source. It is a travel book for God's sake. Until you get a book about the geneaology of the Chinese peoples, and it's stereotypes in skin colour and other bodily forms then you cannot state anything solid. It's also true than Sichuan and Shanghai have light skin tones, but it is mostly Northerners who are genrally percieved to have whiter skin. Because Northerners are seen as paler, by many of the Chinese, it is a stereotype - which clearly does fit into that subsection. This section does not really need a citation or a source/reference. It is not a fact - the section clearly on requires stereotypes. GuerillaRenMin is trying to pull a farce and rewrite 5000 years of Chinese self-sterotyping with a Fodor's travel book's conjectures and assertions. What if it was a typo? Who knows. You need more sources to back it up. ( Pugu ( talk) 22:50, 30 June 2012 (UTC))
http://www.cmecc.com/uploads/课本和论文/中国城市/[70][中国城市]Carolyn.Cartier(2002)Globalizing.South.China.pdf
Rajmaan ( talk) 02:10, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
I have requested a map for this article. Although some maps are already included in the article, they all require careful readings of the text plus the map captions to discern how their content relates to the topic of the article. Granting that the dividing line is ambiguous, I would still expect that one of the following might obtain: (a) someone has done an academic study regarding perceptions of North/South by Chinese people and lines could be drawn on that basis, (b) some government agency has autocratically decided the division and lines could be drawn on that basis (as in Image:Us_south_census.png) (c) the Huai River–Qin Mountains line referred to later in the article could be drawn alone on a map, or, if no single map is sufficient, (d) multiple lines could be drawn that reflect multiple commonly used divisions (perhaps in a rotating image file). Elatb ( talk) 00:09, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
I suggest "southern" in the title of the article be capitalised. - 00:25 CEST on the 29. of May 2013 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:C440:20:1116:94D7:798C:E97:13A3 ( talk) 23:27, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
Southern Han largely share the same Y chromosomes with the same mutations as northern Han, while differing in mtdna and autosomal DNA.. Due to southern Han being descended from northern Han migrants who moved to southern China and married native women
http://books.google.com/books?id=I2OMVmp-7mwC&pg=PA43#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://udini.proquest.com/view/how-han-are-taiwanese-han-genetic-pqid:1668343911/
http://gradworks.umi.com/33/43/3343568.html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15372031
http://159.226.149.45/compgenegroup/paper/wenbo%20Han%20culture%20paper%20(2004).pdf
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v431/n7006/full/nature02878.html
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v16/n6/abs/5201998a.html
Do not use the blog as a reference, but use it to find and cross reference other sources.
http://blog.renren.com/share/288113449/11798480444
Teochew, Fujianese, and Hakka Y chromosome compared in Singapore. The three groups largely share the same Y chromosome
http://scholarbank.nus.edu.sg/bitstream/handle/10635/27767/Summary.pdf?sequence=3
Differences between southern Han Chinese groups like Chaoshan, Hakka, and Cantonese is mainly in the mtdna lineage inherited from the mother, where some southern Han have heavy amounts of southern native mtdna.
http://en.cnki.com.cn/Article_en/CJFDTOTAL-XAYX201006005.htm
http://online4kim.net/xe/files/attach/images/7507/170/020/0b9b8d714566edea3954827c018a3c88.jpg
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7145/6590358575_7450cf0f53.jpg
http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/2131/yndahan.jpg
http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/5609/2008112521014723.jpg
http://www.ranhaer.com/attachments/forumid_48/1308171634806ad8e74f2ed197.jpeg
http://www.ranhaer.com/index.php
Taiwanese Plains Aborigines, Taiwanese people
有唐山公,無唐山媽
"Have mainland (Tangshan) grandfathers, don't have mainland (tangshan) grandmothers
http://books.google.com/books?id=I2OMVmp-7mwC&pg=PA19#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=I2OMVmp-7mwC&pg=PA21#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://udini.proquest.com/view/how-han-are-taiwanese-han-genetic-pqid:1668343911/
http://gradworks.umi.com/33/43/3343568.html
http://books.google.com/books?id=I2OMVmp-7mwC&pg=PA43#v=onepage&q&f=false
Autosomal DNA
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2008/12/genetic-map-of-east-asia/#.U1XEV_k71C8
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/files/eastasiasmall.jpg
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0003862
http://pmsol3.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/journalpone0003862g0011.jpg
http://pmsol3.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/journalpone0003862g0021.jpg
http://pmsol3.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/journalpone0003862t001.jpg
Genetic tests on minority Zhuang Y Chromosomes show them to be of Baiyue descent, while they have some Northern Han y chromsomes due to migration of northern Han to southern China.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17185165
http://www.comonca.org.cn/LH/Doc/A30.PDF
A map of Baiyue ethnic groups in Southern China during the Zhou dynasty's rule over Northern China.
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w71/MGSG/fig1mt72e.gif
http://s173.photobucket.com/user/MGSG/media/fig1mt72e.gif.html
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Milktaco ( talk • contribs) 20:49, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
http://books.google.com/books?id=0DPEol7HO3gC&pg=PA213#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=0DPEol7HO3gC&pg=PA214#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=jqb7L-pKCV8C&pg=PA182#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=126EsR8rpC8C&pg=PA26#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w71/MGSG/fig1mt72e.gif
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Milktaco ( talk • contribs) 20:49, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
Cantonese call themselves men of Tang, or Tang people, since they were descended from northern migrants from Central Plain (China) region who fled south during the Tang dynasty, and central plains people back then were called Tang people.
http://books.google.com/books?id=ERnrQq0bsPYC&pg=PA752#v=onepage&q&f=false
Cantonese dialect is close to Chinese language during the Tang dynasty
http://books.google.com/books?id=Fo087ZxohA4C&pg=PA5#v=onepage&q&f=false
Rajmaan ( talk) 20:51, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
Qinling Huaihe Line. -- Komitsuki ( talk) 03:00, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. No consensus to move at this time ( closed by non-admin page mover) Polyamorph ( talk) 11:45, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
Northern and southern China → North–south divide in China – Amended from North–south divide (China) as per suggestion Or something like it, to make the focus of the article more clear, rather than just inviting copied fragments and statistics from other pages. Remsense 聊 17:54, 18 October 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. Lightoil ( talk) 19:13, 25 October 2023 (UTC)— Relisting. Polyamorph ( talk) 08:48, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
"A Contribution to the Ethnology of the Chinese" by Lamprey [1] is from 1868 and contains some ideas that we now know to be untrue, such as the habit of closing one's eyes making them smaller and hereditary. Vacosea ( talk) 02:09, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
References
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Northern and southern China article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
It is requested that a map or maps be
included in this article to
improve its quality. Wikipedians in China may be able to help! |
On 18 October 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved to North–south divide in China. The result of the discussion was not moved. |
The identification of the Huai River as the historical boundary between north and south China is spot on. However, in modern China the boundary is generally perceived as the Yangtze River. Perhaps a note on this should be incorporated. Bathrobe — Preceding undated comment added 00:26, 17 February 2005 (UTC)
Why is the split necessary at all? The split off articles are identical to the original article, which is pointless. This current article is more about the north-south split itself in any case; after all, the two concepts are basically defined in contrast to each other, and this article focuses on that by describing what distinguishes the two halves. I don't see why information about each of the two regions can't be presented in this current, merged form. -- ran ( talk) 02:37, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)
Should it be northern and southern instead? :-) — Insta ntnood 13:12, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
Yes, it sounds like North Korea and South Korea. -- ran ( talk) 02:32, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
The genetic differences are not limited to the so call Northern and Sourthern divide. Also the concept of the northern and sourthern are different to different groups of people. For an example people from Shanghai (the Shanghaians) see themself as Sourtherners, but the Cantonese will never see them as Sourtherners. Instead, the Cantonese people see the Shanghaians (people from Shanghai) more like aliens from the north. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.106.19.148 ( talk) 11:05, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
What about a short paragraph summarizing the cultural differences between Northern and Southern Chinese? Any experts on Chinese culture want to give it a shot? theboogeyman 05:29, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
To the Cantonese people, Fujianese are considered as Southern Chinese. The people who live north of the Yangtze River, are Northern Chinese. Sonic99 ( talk) 04:33, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
When people are talking about the word Cantonese, what does that usually mean? As far as I can tell, it should all be 廣府人 and 廣府話 centric. In other word, it should not include non-廣府人 or non-廣府話 Guangdonese people or languages. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.106.19.148 ( talk) 11:19, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
South China redirects here, Northern and southern China, but it is somehow not desirable. In many case South China means 華南 or 南華, a region of South China, just like 華東 (East China), 華北 (North China), 東北 (Northeast China), 西南 (Southwest China), 華中 (Central China) and so on. But the article suddenly jumps to the comparison of Northern and southern China. It is simply not what South China means. — HenryLi ( Talk) 07:57, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Source added: Eberhard, Wolfram (1965). "Chinese Regional Stereotypes." Asian Survey, vol. 5, no. 12 (December 1965), pp. 596-608. This not only presents 20th century survey data, but also chronicles stereotypes in the historical record in various periods of Chinese history dating back to 400 B.C. Badagnani 04:04, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Another source added: Morgan, Stephen L. (2000). "Richer and Taller: Stature and Living Standards in China, 1979-1995." The China Journal, no. 44 (July 2000), pp. 1-39. Badagnani 04:14, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
This is to address the addition of the line within the Southern Chinese stereotypes that "they resemble other Southeast Asians". While you can imply that Southern Chinese share features that can be similar to Southeast Asians, I have to say that the formation of such sentence was done very poorly. To say they resemble other southeast Asians would be to imply that the southern Chinese were indeed in the southeast Asian category all along. That point is very debatable and controversial. Some may have strong views on that considering there have been wars fought over it. It would have been far better to have said it without the "other". If any others feel the need to add that line in, then it would also be necessary to add an additional stereotypes to the Northern Chinese category, perhaps bringing up their Mongolian or Manchurian neighbors. Otherwise it would seem that this is going towards a more prejudiced area. To try to maintain as much of an unbiased page as much as possible, I have deleted that particular sentence.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Ludacris321 ( talk • contribs) 22:23, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
oh really? to some, the 江南 region is also considered to be 南方, and the region, especially Shanghai, is known to produce fair-skinned people. and is Sichuan, which also has a great deal of pales, exactly northern (by most accounts), either? The climatic data, especially on humidity and total amount of sunshine, would also disagree with the article's assertions, too. -- HXL 's Roundtable, and Record 23:54, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
GuerillaRenMin's source is a British travel book, it is not a trustworthy source. It is a travel book for God's sake. Until you get a book about the geneaology of the Chinese peoples, and it's stereotypes in skin colour and other bodily forms then you cannot state anything solid. It's also true than Sichuan and Shanghai have light skin tones, but it is mostly Northerners who are genrally percieved to have whiter skin. Because Northerners are seen as paler, by many of the Chinese, it is a stereotype - which clearly does fit into that subsection. This section does not really need a citation or a source/reference. It is not a fact - the section clearly on requires stereotypes. GuerillaRenMin is trying to pull a farce and rewrite 5000 years of Chinese self-sterotyping with a Fodor's travel book's conjectures and assertions. What if it was a typo? Who knows. You need more sources to back it up. ( Pugu ( talk) 22:50, 30 June 2012 (UTC))
http://www.cmecc.com/uploads/课本和论文/中国城市/[70][中国城市]Carolyn.Cartier(2002)Globalizing.South.China.pdf
Rajmaan ( talk) 02:10, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
I have requested a map for this article. Although some maps are already included in the article, they all require careful readings of the text plus the map captions to discern how their content relates to the topic of the article. Granting that the dividing line is ambiguous, I would still expect that one of the following might obtain: (a) someone has done an academic study regarding perceptions of North/South by Chinese people and lines could be drawn on that basis, (b) some government agency has autocratically decided the division and lines could be drawn on that basis (as in Image:Us_south_census.png) (c) the Huai River–Qin Mountains line referred to later in the article could be drawn alone on a map, or, if no single map is sufficient, (d) multiple lines could be drawn that reflect multiple commonly used divisions (perhaps in a rotating image file). Elatb ( talk) 00:09, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
I suggest "southern" in the title of the article be capitalised. - 00:25 CEST on the 29. of May 2013 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:C440:20:1116:94D7:798C:E97:13A3 ( talk) 23:27, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
Southern Han largely share the same Y chromosomes with the same mutations as northern Han, while differing in mtdna and autosomal DNA.. Due to southern Han being descended from northern Han migrants who moved to southern China and married native women
http://books.google.com/books?id=I2OMVmp-7mwC&pg=PA43#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://udini.proquest.com/view/how-han-are-taiwanese-han-genetic-pqid:1668343911/
http://gradworks.umi.com/33/43/3343568.html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15372031
http://159.226.149.45/compgenegroup/paper/wenbo%20Han%20culture%20paper%20(2004).pdf
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v431/n7006/full/nature02878.html
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v16/n6/abs/5201998a.html
Do not use the blog as a reference, but use it to find and cross reference other sources.
http://blog.renren.com/share/288113449/11798480444
Teochew, Fujianese, and Hakka Y chromosome compared in Singapore. The three groups largely share the same Y chromosome
http://scholarbank.nus.edu.sg/bitstream/handle/10635/27767/Summary.pdf?sequence=3
Differences between southern Han Chinese groups like Chaoshan, Hakka, and Cantonese is mainly in the mtdna lineage inherited from the mother, where some southern Han have heavy amounts of southern native mtdna.
http://en.cnki.com.cn/Article_en/CJFDTOTAL-XAYX201006005.htm
http://online4kim.net/xe/files/attach/images/7507/170/020/0b9b8d714566edea3954827c018a3c88.jpg
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7145/6590358575_7450cf0f53.jpg
http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/2131/yndahan.jpg
http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/5609/2008112521014723.jpg
http://www.ranhaer.com/attachments/forumid_48/1308171634806ad8e74f2ed197.jpeg
http://www.ranhaer.com/index.php
Taiwanese Plains Aborigines, Taiwanese people
有唐山公,無唐山媽
"Have mainland (Tangshan) grandfathers, don't have mainland (tangshan) grandmothers
http://books.google.com/books?id=I2OMVmp-7mwC&pg=PA19#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=I2OMVmp-7mwC&pg=PA21#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://udini.proquest.com/view/how-han-are-taiwanese-han-genetic-pqid:1668343911/
http://gradworks.umi.com/33/43/3343568.html
http://books.google.com/books?id=I2OMVmp-7mwC&pg=PA43#v=onepage&q&f=false
Autosomal DNA
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2008/12/genetic-map-of-east-asia/#.U1XEV_k71C8
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/files/eastasiasmall.jpg
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0003862
http://pmsol3.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/journalpone0003862g0011.jpg
http://pmsol3.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/journalpone0003862g0021.jpg
http://pmsol3.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/journalpone0003862t001.jpg
Genetic tests on minority Zhuang Y Chromosomes show them to be of Baiyue descent, while they have some Northern Han y chromsomes due to migration of northern Han to southern China.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17185165
http://www.comonca.org.cn/LH/Doc/A30.PDF
A map of Baiyue ethnic groups in Southern China during the Zhou dynasty's rule over Northern China.
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w71/MGSG/fig1mt72e.gif
http://s173.photobucket.com/user/MGSG/media/fig1mt72e.gif.html
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Milktaco ( talk • contribs) 20:49, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
http://books.google.com/books?id=0DPEol7HO3gC&pg=PA213#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=0DPEol7HO3gC&pg=PA214#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=jqb7L-pKCV8C&pg=PA182#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=126EsR8rpC8C&pg=PA26#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w71/MGSG/fig1mt72e.gif
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Milktaco ( talk • contribs) 20:49, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
Cantonese call themselves men of Tang, or Tang people, since they were descended from northern migrants from Central Plain (China) region who fled south during the Tang dynasty, and central plains people back then were called Tang people.
http://books.google.com/books?id=ERnrQq0bsPYC&pg=PA752#v=onepage&q&f=false
Cantonese dialect is close to Chinese language during the Tang dynasty
http://books.google.com/books?id=Fo087ZxohA4C&pg=PA5#v=onepage&q&f=false
Rajmaan ( talk) 20:51, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
Qinling Huaihe Line. -- Komitsuki ( talk) 03:00, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. No consensus to move at this time ( closed by non-admin page mover) Polyamorph ( talk) 11:45, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
Northern and southern China → North–south divide in China – Amended from North–south divide (China) as per suggestion Or something like it, to make the focus of the article more clear, rather than just inviting copied fragments and statistics from other pages. Remsense 聊 17:54, 18 October 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. Lightoil ( talk) 19:13, 25 October 2023 (UTC)— Relisting. Polyamorph ( talk) 08:48, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
"A Contribution to the Ethnology of the Chinese" by Lamprey [1] is from 1868 and contains some ideas that we now know to be untrue, such as the habit of closing one's eyes making them smaller and hereditary. Vacosea ( talk) 02:09, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
References