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Where did you get the information on the proposed alternatives from? I've seen the news clip with the 3 suggestions from Alliance, but have never heard of this one supposedly being considered by the UK government - do you have a source for this?
Also, the Cross of St Patrick defaced with the star and hand has never been flown at any Northern Ireland matches I've been to as shown. There is often a similar one [1] which is green in the left and right segments.
I've seen in Northern Ireland a few times that nationalist communities sometimes fly the Palestinian flag, and in reply the Unionists will fly the Israeli flag. It would be great to get a photo of this. Seabhcán 09:27, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Ruthfulbarbarity 22:01, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
I saw a flag behind the goal line at the NI vs Iceland match on 02/09/06. It was based on the Union Jack, but had the red replaced by green. Does anyone now what this flag's origin is, and whether it should be included in this article?
-- 194.75.159.78 10:25, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
It would be really nice to get these flag images as SVG. - Thanks, Hos hie | 06:09, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
DONE! Well, one anyway. I've uploaded an SVG of the St Patrick's Cross based flag. How's that for a first SVG? I can't replace it yet because my Commons account is too new, however I'm thinking I might thicken the line around the star as it appears to fade quite badly at low resolutions. beano 16:20, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm against merging this into the main article. — Nightst a llion (?) 11:44, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
Me too! NotMuchToSay 18:11, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Since there seems to be no desire to merge the articles, I'll remove the proposal from the top of the page. It's been up there about 10 days, so I think that has been long enough to gather opinion. NotMuchToSay 14:24, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Could someone explain the 'Star of David' objections, as I've never heard that before. Surely the 6-pointed star only represents the 6 counties of Northern Ireland. Is this anti-semitic idea? -- Indisciplined 22:06, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't believe that that star on the NI flag has anything to do with the Star of David, but there are some people who seem to believe otherwise. This misconception isn't helped by the fact that some Loyalists fly the Israeli flag! Some protestants apparently believe that the Protestants of Ulster descend from the "Lost Tribe of Isreal", though I'm not entirely sure what that is.
Personally I don't think the Israeli references have a place on this page, but others disagree
NotMuchToSay 10:12, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
I made the unofficial flag of the Ulster Nation proposed by the Ulster seperatists. I think this flag should be added in the article, but I have few information about it (see also: [2] [3]). — Yes0song 18:01, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
There has been much dispute in Northern Ireland over the flying of paramilitary flags (mainly loyalist) particularly during the marching season. Should they be mentioned here? Lucas42 17:38, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
When I set up this page I intended it to show flags which have been used to represent Northern Ireland as a whole (with the possible inclusion of the Republic or Great Britain). I don't think the flags of illegal paramilitary organisations should be here - nor do I think that flags for institutions such as the Royal Irish Regiment the Irish Football Association or the GAA should be here either. Of course, as this is Wikipedia, if there is a consensus that this page should encompass other flags, then maybe we should change things. NotMuchToSay 16:20, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure if this is right, but should the "Northern Ireland coat of arms" be on this page? It is not actually a flag, so I'm not sure where it comes into the flag issue. -- Chickenfeed9 21:01, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Rather than putting about a dozen {{cn}} tags on this, I added the general tag at the top. Needs much more referencing. Patricularly for claims like "This flag is often flown by loyalists and in many republican minds has become associated with loyalist paramilitaries" or "The flying of the Irish Tricolour by nationalists in Northern Ireland on St Patrick's Day is particularly controversial as Saint Patrick represents all the people and all of the island, not just the Republic of Ireland or its citizens". Stu ’Bout ye! 13:06, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
This user is edit warring on this article, removing relevent information, he refuses to engage in discussion on talkpages.-- padraig3uk 22:04, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
My removal of the word some from the paragraph on the Ulster Banner was removed with the edit summary "many sports organisation don't use it". I can't think of any Northern Irish sports organisations that don't use it offhand, can anyone else? -- John 04:11, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Well outside of the NI soccer team, only the Olympic and commonwealth game teams do use it.-- padraig3uk 05:04, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm disappointed you have replaced false information that you were unable to source when I challenged you. -- John 14:50, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Can editors please leave the order of the sections alone, this article deals with flags in use and used by the Northern Ireland state, therefore the section on the Ulster Banner as the former flag of the government between 1921-72 should come just after the main section dealing with current official flags. The Irish Tricolour then is shown after that.-- padraig3uk 07:35, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
I must say I'm disappointed that some users resort to a POV push by moving the Tricolour to 'other flags'. The tricolour is not just another flag, it is used by the nationalist community in the six counties. It should be given prominence under the union flag, which has legal weight in the six counties. The tricolour is more important than the old governmental flag which is now defunct.
Diarmaid 8:30, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Diarmaid, the reason for the order is that the flags are listed in order of relevance. ie, Union Flag and Assemby emblem first as they are the current official flags, then the Ulster Banner, Coat of Arms and Cross of St Patrick as they are all former official flags, the other flags which includes the Tricolour and the other flags which have never been official. This is exactly the order that should be in place. Stu ’Bout ye! 09:43, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
So, to sum up Diarmaid, not one editor agrees with your view, but you are right so thats the way it will be? Traditional unionist 07:53, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
I dont think its right to say that Diarmaid has no support or otherwise for his position, he has made a valid point that this article deals solely with the issue of flags used in Northern Ireland, Therefore the main flags used by both sections of the population to represent them should have equal priority over other flags such as the St Patricks flag and provincial flags, etc. The Union Flag should be first in that order as it is the only recognised official flag, then the Ulster Banner and Tricolour, with the rest in a seperate section or sections as necessary. Maybe it would be better if we can agree a format here for the layout, without resorting to an edit war on the article itself. I propose these sections:
This is just as suggestion, if editors have others please list them here.-- padraig3uk 11:11, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
This article states
The supporting reference states:
Is it just me, or is there a contradiction there? The Fashion Icon 15:17, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
Good evening, I am new to this site and would like to recommend a change be made to the wording used regarding the Irish Tri colour. The words state that the Irish Tri colour is flown to show support to a United Ireland. If this was the case, it is a significant contradiction in that the Irish Tri colour is not a flag for all of Ireland, it is the flag of the Republic of Ireland. Therefore, the Tri colour is flown to show support to Republicism, not an United Ireland. Can this be changed please. (27.09.07 - MJMCA) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mjmca ( talk • contribs) 16:03, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Given that there is considerable cross-over between the Northern Ireland flags issue page and the Flag of Northern Ireland page, I propose that these pages be merged. The Ulster Banner page now exists to cover the actual NI flag, anyway.
NotMuchToSay 14:34, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
I am new to this site and would like to recommend a change be made to the wording used regarding the Irish Tri colour. The words state that the Irish Tri colour is flown to show support to a United Ireland. If this was the case, it is a significant contradiction in that the Irish Tri colour is not a flag for all of Ireland, it is the flag of the Republic of Ireland. Therefore, the Tri colour is flown to show support to Republicism, not an United Ireland. Can this be changed please. (27.09.07 - MJMCA)
I am against the merger proposal of the NI Flags issue article with the Flag of Northern Ireland page as the issues arising in this article may overshadow the default information that users may expect to find in the Flag of Northern Ireland article. -- RÓNÁN "Caint / Talk" 21:57, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
I am a young man from ulster and i believe in nothern ireland we should have a flag. should we not have a flag we are all proud to call our own and one that is already labelled!
Maybe someone from this article can give some useful input to this thread Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Football#Ireland regarding the Flag (if any) used by the Ireland scoccer team. Fasach Nua ( talk) 22:45, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
For your information, a quote from today's Irish Times. -- Mais oui! ( talk) 07:31, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
Should Darts articles use the Ulster Banner to represent players from Northern Ireland? See the discussion here Bjmullan ( talk) 23:33, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
Surely not? Surely separatism is just that, separate? Description mentions not wishing to be part of the UK. So not Unionism. Suggest someone put it under another heading. Will not get into petty squabbles as above about what that heading should be. 109.255.209.70 ( talk) 03:03, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
The version as of 25 April 2013 says virtually nothing about any issue around flags in Northern Ireland. There has never been any dispute around sunbursts, starry ploughs, four provinces flags or "sporting" flags. I am removing all of that and replacing it with a very short article describing two or three real-life issues. Interested parties are invited to expand. Scolaire ( talk) 08:19, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
I have zapped the St. Andrew's Cross, since no reference was provided. I propose next to remove the Sunburst, the Starry Plough and the Ulster Nation flag. Those sections (also unreferenced) do not say in what way the flags are part of the "flags issue", only that they are "used" (which I assume means diplayed) by this or that group. Well, so what? I don't doubt that Palestinian flags and Basque flags are also displayed by some political groups, but presumably nobody would consider adding them. After that, I propose to remove the section headings. Since this is not a "List of flags used in Northern Ireland", there is no reason to present them in list form. Removing the list format will allow the article to be re-arranged so that unionist flags and nationalist flags can be talked about in the same section, which ought to make it both more readable and more relevant. Scolaire ( talk) 08:19, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
The paragraph and image of the flag of Ulster has the appearance of being there to "even the scores" between unionists and nationalists, so that they get two flags each. The problem is that there is nothing in the article that remotely suggests that the flag of Ulster is contentious, or ever has been. The other three are dealt with in the Controversies section. I think the image should be removed, and the text shortened and added to the following paragraph e.g.
Scolaire ( talk) 08:36, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
I merely included it on reading the article as it is used primarly by nationalists in northern ireland however i was unaware it was required to be contentious in order to be included so no problem with its removal in that case Caomhan27 ( talk) 15:28, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
The entire paragraph beginning "The flying of the Irish Tricolour by nationalists in Northern Ireland on St Patrick's Day has caused some controversy..." is unsourced and dubious. The flying of the Tricolour anywhere in NI at any time of year has always "caused some controversy"; there is no reason why Paddy's Day should be any different. "Arguing that St Patrick is the patron saint of the whole of Ireland, not just the Republic of Ireland" sounds like a typical WP scoring point, but I don't recall ever hearing a public figure making the point in regard to the flying of the Tricolour. Similarly, the meaning of the Tricolour (peace between green and orange) is not of any relevance to the national festival. Unless the paragraph is rewritten in a more meaningful way, with proper citations to reliable sources, I intend to delete it. Scolaire ( talk) 12:21, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
The proposal put forward by Richard Haass was not for a new flag for Northern Ireland to replace the Ulster banner. Whoever put the image and the caption on the linked Irish Times article said that, but the article itself didn't, and neither did the draft proposal. The proposal was for "a new flag for Northern Ireland that would have cross-community support." Unionists said "that they would accept no replacement for the British union flag", and "a source" said the flag "was not designed to replace the union flag but to augment it." I'm taking out the italicised text. Scolaire ( talk) 09:21, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
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Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to the Troubles, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:
Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
Where did you get the information on the proposed alternatives from? I've seen the news clip with the 3 suggestions from Alliance, but have never heard of this one supposedly being considered by the UK government - do you have a source for this?
Also, the Cross of St Patrick defaced with the star and hand has never been flown at any Northern Ireland matches I've been to as shown. There is often a similar one [1] which is green in the left and right segments.
I've seen in Northern Ireland a few times that nationalist communities sometimes fly the Palestinian flag, and in reply the Unionists will fly the Israeli flag. It would be great to get a photo of this. Seabhcán 09:27, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Ruthfulbarbarity 22:01, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
I saw a flag behind the goal line at the NI vs Iceland match on 02/09/06. It was based on the Union Jack, but had the red replaced by green. Does anyone now what this flag's origin is, and whether it should be included in this article?
-- 194.75.159.78 10:25, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
It would be really nice to get these flag images as SVG. - Thanks, Hos hie | 06:09, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
DONE! Well, one anyway. I've uploaded an SVG of the St Patrick's Cross based flag. How's that for a first SVG? I can't replace it yet because my Commons account is too new, however I'm thinking I might thicken the line around the star as it appears to fade quite badly at low resolutions. beano 16:20, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm against merging this into the main article. — Nightst a llion (?) 11:44, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
Me too! NotMuchToSay 18:11, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Since there seems to be no desire to merge the articles, I'll remove the proposal from the top of the page. It's been up there about 10 days, so I think that has been long enough to gather opinion. NotMuchToSay 14:24, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Could someone explain the 'Star of David' objections, as I've never heard that before. Surely the 6-pointed star only represents the 6 counties of Northern Ireland. Is this anti-semitic idea? -- Indisciplined 22:06, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't believe that that star on the NI flag has anything to do with the Star of David, but there are some people who seem to believe otherwise. This misconception isn't helped by the fact that some Loyalists fly the Israeli flag! Some protestants apparently believe that the Protestants of Ulster descend from the "Lost Tribe of Isreal", though I'm not entirely sure what that is.
Personally I don't think the Israeli references have a place on this page, but others disagree
NotMuchToSay 10:12, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
I made the unofficial flag of the Ulster Nation proposed by the Ulster seperatists. I think this flag should be added in the article, but I have few information about it (see also: [2] [3]). — Yes0song 18:01, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
There has been much dispute in Northern Ireland over the flying of paramilitary flags (mainly loyalist) particularly during the marching season. Should they be mentioned here? Lucas42 17:38, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
When I set up this page I intended it to show flags which have been used to represent Northern Ireland as a whole (with the possible inclusion of the Republic or Great Britain). I don't think the flags of illegal paramilitary organisations should be here - nor do I think that flags for institutions such as the Royal Irish Regiment the Irish Football Association or the GAA should be here either. Of course, as this is Wikipedia, if there is a consensus that this page should encompass other flags, then maybe we should change things. NotMuchToSay 16:20, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure if this is right, but should the "Northern Ireland coat of arms" be on this page? It is not actually a flag, so I'm not sure where it comes into the flag issue. -- Chickenfeed9 21:01, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Rather than putting about a dozen {{cn}} tags on this, I added the general tag at the top. Needs much more referencing. Patricularly for claims like "This flag is often flown by loyalists and in many republican minds has become associated with loyalist paramilitaries" or "The flying of the Irish Tricolour by nationalists in Northern Ireland on St Patrick's Day is particularly controversial as Saint Patrick represents all the people and all of the island, not just the Republic of Ireland or its citizens". Stu ’Bout ye! 13:06, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
This user is edit warring on this article, removing relevent information, he refuses to engage in discussion on talkpages.-- padraig3uk 22:04, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
My removal of the word some from the paragraph on the Ulster Banner was removed with the edit summary "many sports organisation don't use it". I can't think of any Northern Irish sports organisations that don't use it offhand, can anyone else? -- John 04:11, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Well outside of the NI soccer team, only the Olympic and commonwealth game teams do use it.-- padraig3uk 05:04, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm disappointed you have replaced false information that you were unable to source when I challenged you. -- John 14:50, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Can editors please leave the order of the sections alone, this article deals with flags in use and used by the Northern Ireland state, therefore the section on the Ulster Banner as the former flag of the government between 1921-72 should come just after the main section dealing with current official flags. The Irish Tricolour then is shown after that.-- padraig3uk 07:35, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
I must say I'm disappointed that some users resort to a POV push by moving the Tricolour to 'other flags'. The tricolour is not just another flag, it is used by the nationalist community in the six counties. It should be given prominence under the union flag, which has legal weight in the six counties. The tricolour is more important than the old governmental flag which is now defunct.
Diarmaid 8:30, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Diarmaid, the reason for the order is that the flags are listed in order of relevance. ie, Union Flag and Assemby emblem first as they are the current official flags, then the Ulster Banner, Coat of Arms and Cross of St Patrick as they are all former official flags, the other flags which includes the Tricolour and the other flags which have never been official. This is exactly the order that should be in place. Stu ’Bout ye! 09:43, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
So, to sum up Diarmaid, not one editor agrees with your view, but you are right so thats the way it will be? Traditional unionist 07:53, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
I dont think its right to say that Diarmaid has no support or otherwise for his position, he has made a valid point that this article deals solely with the issue of flags used in Northern Ireland, Therefore the main flags used by both sections of the population to represent them should have equal priority over other flags such as the St Patricks flag and provincial flags, etc. The Union Flag should be first in that order as it is the only recognised official flag, then the Ulster Banner and Tricolour, with the rest in a seperate section or sections as necessary. Maybe it would be better if we can agree a format here for the layout, without resorting to an edit war on the article itself. I propose these sections:
This is just as suggestion, if editors have others please list them here.-- padraig3uk 11:11, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
This article states
The supporting reference states:
Is it just me, or is there a contradiction there? The Fashion Icon 15:17, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
Good evening, I am new to this site and would like to recommend a change be made to the wording used regarding the Irish Tri colour. The words state that the Irish Tri colour is flown to show support to a United Ireland. If this was the case, it is a significant contradiction in that the Irish Tri colour is not a flag for all of Ireland, it is the flag of the Republic of Ireland. Therefore, the Tri colour is flown to show support to Republicism, not an United Ireland. Can this be changed please. (27.09.07 - MJMCA) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mjmca ( talk • contribs) 16:03, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Given that there is considerable cross-over between the Northern Ireland flags issue page and the Flag of Northern Ireland page, I propose that these pages be merged. The Ulster Banner page now exists to cover the actual NI flag, anyway.
NotMuchToSay 14:34, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
I am new to this site and would like to recommend a change be made to the wording used regarding the Irish Tri colour. The words state that the Irish Tri colour is flown to show support to a United Ireland. If this was the case, it is a significant contradiction in that the Irish Tri colour is not a flag for all of Ireland, it is the flag of the Republic of Ireland. Therefore, the Tri colour is flown to show support to Republicism, not an United Ireland. Can this be changed please. (27.09.07 - MJMCA)
I am against the merger proposal of the NI Flags issue article with the Flag of Northern Ireland page as the issues arising in this article may overshadow the default information that users may expect to find in the Flag of Northern Ireland article. -- RÓNÁN "Caint / Talk" 21:57, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
I am a young man from ulster and i believe in nothern ireland we should have a flag. should we not have a flag we are all proud to call our own and one that is already labelled!
Maybe someone from this article can give some useful input to this thread Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Football#Ireland regarding the Flag (if any) used by the Ireland scoccer team. Fasach Nua ( talk) 22:45, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
For your information, a quote from today's Irish Times. -- Mais oui! ( talk) 07:31, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
Should Darts articles use the Ulster Banner to represent players from Northern Ireland? See the discussion here Bjmullan ( talk) 23:33, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
Surely not? Surely separatism is just that, separate? Description mentions not wishing to be part of the UK. So not Unionism. Suggest someone put it under another heading. Will not get into petty squabbles as above about what that heading should be. 109.255.209.70 ( talk) 03:03, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
The version as of 25 April 2013 says virtually nothing about any issue around flags in Northern Ireland. There has never been any dispute around sunbursts, starry ploughs, four provinces flags or "sporting" flags. I am removing all of that and replacing it with a very short article describing two or three real-life issues. Interested parties are invited to expand. Scolaire ( talk) 08:19, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
I have zapped the St. Andrew's Cross, since no reference was provided. I propose next to remove the Sunburst, the Starry Plough and the Ulster Nation flag. Those sections (also unreferenced) do not say in what way the flags are part of the "flags issue", only that they are "used" (which I assume means diplayed) by this or that group. Well, so what? I don't doubt that Palestinian flags and Basque flags are also displayed by some political groups, but presumably nobody would consider adding them. After that, I propose to remove the section headings. Since this is not a "List of flags used in Northern Ireland", there is no reason to present them in list form. Removing the list format will allow the article to be re-arranged so that unionist flags and nationalist flags can be talked about in the same section, which ought to make it both more readable and more relevant. Scolaire ( talk) 08:19, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
The paragraph and image of the flag of Ulster has the appearance of being there to "even the scores" between unionists and nationalists, so that they get two flags each. The problem is that there is nothing in the article that remotely suggests that the flag of Ulster is contentious, or ever has been. The other three are dealt with in the Controversies section. I think the image should be removed, and the text shortened and added to the following paragraph e.g.
Scolaire ( talk) 08:36, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
I merely included it on reading the article as it is used primarly by nationalists in northern ireland however i was unaware it was required to be contentious in order to be included so no problem with its removal in that case Caomhan27 ( talk) 15:28, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
The entire paragraph beginning "The flying of the Irish Tricolour by nationalists in Northern Ireland on St Patrick's Day has caused some controversy..." is unsourced and dubious. The flying of the Tricolour anywhere in NI at any time of year has always "caused some controversy"; there is no reason why Paddy's Day should be any different. "Arguing that St Patrick is the patron saint of the whole of Ireland, not just the Republic of Ireland" sounds like a typical WP scoring point, but I don't recall ever hearing a public figure making the point in regard to the flying of the Tricolour. Similarly, the meaning of the Tricolour (peace between green and orange) is not of any relevance to the national festival. Unless the paragraph is rewritten in a more meaningful way, with proper citations to reliable sources, I intend to delete it. Scolaire ( talk) 12:21, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
The proposal put forward by Richard Haass was not for a new flag for Northern Ireland to replace the Ulster banner. Whoever put the image and the caption on the linked Irish Times article said that, but the article itself didn't, and neither did the draft proposal. The proposal was for "a new flag for Northern Ireland that would have cross-community support." Unionists said "that they would accept no replacement for the British union flag", and "a source" said the flag "was not designed to replace the union flag but to augment it." I'm taking out the italicised text. Scolaire ( talk) 09:21, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
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