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Footnote 1 ("HM Revenue & Customs Advice Teams - Northern England". HMRC.gov.uk. Retrieved on 23 February 2009) is a broken link and does not work.
Furthermore, this is a financial/economic designation anyway, which is at best ephemeral. Since "the North" is a mainly cultural phenomenon (I quote the article!), I recommend cross-referencing instead to television regions, rather than economic bodies. BBC Look North for example covers South Yorkshire and Lincolnshire as well as North Yorkshire and North East and Cumbria.
This is as opposed to Look East, and the other Midland and Southern TV regions. ITV Yorkshire covers Lincolnshire as well. There is a good argument for considering 'the North' to extend from the north-west corner of the Wash to between Stoke on Trent and Crewe. See this map for clarification: http://www.barb.co.uk/images/maps/barb_bbc_map.gif
Lincolnshire people will generally consider themselves Northern rather than Southern, although the southernmost Fen areas may 'blend' more with the Midlands.
Further to this, the three articles Midlands (England), Northern England and Southern England ought to be brought into agreement and have a standard map design, rather than the three we have at the moment. A clarified map can be found here: https://p.twimg.com/AqoKVwLCAAEU6dx.jpg
Thoughts, editors? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.155.250.226 ( talk) 19:55, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
I came across the startling assertion "It is the only other English land aside from the West Country to have a native population with Celtic blood". What is 'Celtic blood'? Is this an attempt to refer to the language Cumbrian, a now-lots relative of Welsh and Cornish? Language and ethnicity are not as closely tied as this passing remark suggests. After all, at one time a Celtic language was the majority language over the whole of what is now England so most of the populatio has some small part of their ancestry which was Celtic speaking. The sentence should be reworded to be clear and correct. -- Nantonos 19:38, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
Is the Flag of Northumbria the flag or the north?
Though the map shows these towns right on the border of what constitutes as the north, and they are stated as sometimes regarded as being in the north; i've never known them to be reffered to as in the South. They are almost certainly northern towns. BertramMurgatroyd
The article at times suggests that there is some kind of common identity between areas of Northern England. Whilst it is true that they share a similar industrial heritage, I would suggest that the North East and Yorkshire do not share a common identity, but Yorkshire and North East identities, respectively. I feel this comes about due to the geographic seperation by the North York Moors and much of rural North Yorkshire. I and others, living in the North East, feel little affiliation with Yorkshire and feel the term "Northern" is often used to evoke a sterotype that is distinctly Yorkshire (as evidenced by the suggestion of the Rose as a symbol of Northern England). For example, the comments that:
"Stereotypical northern activities include whippet-racing and pigeon-breeding" ... can similarly be found in the article referring to Yorkshire:
"The social stereotype of a Yorkshireman has a tendency to include such accessories as a flat cap and a whippet"
Yet the North East does not have a stereotype based on the whippet and pigeon-breeding.
Thus, statements such as:
"This is part of a general rivalry between South and North"... tend to unify where there is division. After all, I doubt much of "the South" would feel an affiliation in a similar way suggested (and hence why the article on Southern England merely points out a geographical area with sub-links rather than suggesting there is any great affiliation like this article does).
Some of this stuff is a bit of a joke, and spoils what seems to start off as a good article.
Hoewever, I realise it is relatively common in Yorkshire to refer to Northern England in this way, when they are in reality referring to Yorkshire. It is interesting that those in the North East do not commonly refer to Northern England in the same way, but localise to the North East.
I have accordingly added a paragraph clearing the above up.
"The United Kingdom goverment accords the northern regions with the same legal status as the prinicipality of Wales."
It doesn't bare any real relevance to the paragraph I orignally wrote so i removed it. It is also rather vauge and thus rather than move it someone else I have removed it completely. If the orignal author would expand the point then it would be more welcome.
"In reality, identites form around smaller regions such as the North East of England and Yorkshire."
...to be replaced with references to the "historic counties" instead (which was later deleted by someone). Whilst this may well be a good intentioned reference to the formation of identities around smaller sub-areas in northern England, it is questionable as to whether the identities form around the historic counties. It is far more simple to highlgiht the current geographical areas that identities form around - such as the North East - something which would be also less confusing given that county boundaries have changed dramatically. Thus, I have revereted to the orignal text. Logica 01:14, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Don't tell me what I know or don't know. For your information I have lived in northern England and even if I haven't anyone with even the slightest grasp of social science and resident in the UK understands which identities exist and which do not. There is a Lancs. identity naturally, but it is absurd to claim that there is a current homogeneous identity for the historic limits of Lancs. on a par with that of Yorkshire. For a start, the Manchester identity stands in the way of this and dominates the region (more people identifying with Manchester than Lancs.) in a way that is not reproduced in Yorkshire. I know you have strong identity with historic Lancs. but you are the exception and not the rule. MRSC 11:33, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Woa, a lot's happened since I last checked this page. Firstly, I am reverting the changes that the user: Mrsteviec performed (see the next chat option for reasons). Secondly, short of actually asking everyone across northern England as to what identity they feel affiliated with, we must rely on the testimony of those living in the regions themselves. Having lived in County Durham all my life, I have no doubt that there exists a North-East identity with little affiliation with Yorkshire. The North York Moors serve as a natural seperator for the North-East and Yorkshire and I feel this is why different identities form - though this specific point is speculative so I will not include this point about the NYM in the actual article. Thirdly, my orignal paragraph suggested Yorkshire had a common identity. I am not a native of Yorkshire and cannot claim to know great amounts about how people feel about their identity, so with regards the Yorkshire/Historic Lancashire clash above, I cannot comment - but the removal of the suggestion of a North-East identity is just plain wrong in my experience. Please see the next section as to why the chances Mrsteviec performed cannot be accepted. Logica 14:12, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
As I've already said - in highlighting an identity it is difficult to get reliable documentary evidence. One suggestion could be to look at the coverage of the local media. However, this is not foolproof. For example, the BBC local news in the North East is Look North for the "North East and Cumbria", even though I feel Cumbria is felt as seperate from the North East. But you could also say the use of the specific term "North East" as distinct from "Cumbria" could be indicative of a North East identity. You can also look at other organisations that specifically highlight a regional identity. A strong case can be put for the North East having a strong identity in that there was a blueprint for a North East Assembly, but even this might be rejected by the fact that a public vote rejected the proposal quite strongly. The fact that One NorthEast, the development agency, defines its limits to the "North East" also suggests that a North East identity is apparant.
The problem arises in that the national press (and others) frequently refer to "the North" rather than specify to a smaller region such as the North East. Many articles refer to "the North" not only to identify a geographical area of the England, but imbue it with some sense of coherent identity. Indeed, the continual reference to such things as (for example) binge drinking being highest in the "North of England" lend further credence to the claim that the North of England/northern England (whatever you want to call it) has a coherent identity. Just because binge drinking is high across an area defined in quite an arbitrary fashion does not mean to say it has a coherent identity. I myself know this through personal experience of a lifetime living in my region, but the only counter argument is to say that they don't appreciate the local identities - and anyone could say "you don't really know it". James Joyce did it in Ulysses, but I don't think Wikipedia can stomach it. Ideally, surveys of such identity would rest the matter, but I can't come across any such.
What I suggest is to use documentary evidence in the form of the regions that local media, organisations and the like use. What we are looking for is a coherence in identity. We might be able to use the "you don't really know it" argument for those that are deemed remote from the region, such as, for example, the Daily Mail using continual references to the "North of England" in its articles, what with it being a national (and London-based) newspaper. Documentary evidence might not be an exhaustive list. I even suggest highligting a link to another article that discusses this, and the evident problems that are involved. I've got a lot of work to be getting on with (last year at uni) so I don't know when I'd be able to do this, but I plan to do it at some point if people approve? Logica 01:45, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
As an aside, the very fact that there is an article on the "North of England" itself supports the claim to a coherent identity by inferring it with a "history" and "people" section. We observe that there is no such in depth sections in "Southern England". Rather, it rightly points out that it is just an area for identification purposes rather than having any sense of common identity.
We have thus come to a point that I thought should have been there from the start - what justification is there for having an article on northern England that simply supports assumptions about its coherence as an identity. At the very least these issues should be highlighted more prominantly rather than the paragraph that I initially added. Logica 01:46, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
UPDATE: Ok, I've thought about this, and realised that it would violate the original research policy to start inferring things from local media, organisations (...etc) about identity. I'll try and get some references when I have some time, but I fear this will be a fair amount of time away, as I've said before. Logica 22:29, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
WERE ALL ENGLISH, EVERYONE STOP TRYING TO PULL OUR COUNTRY APART, NORTH ENGLAND ENGLISH AND PROUD, SOUTH ENGLAND ENGLISH AND PROUD. WE'VE FOUGHT FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS FOR IT TO BE THAT WAY AND NOW A FEW STUPID MINORITY GROUP OF PEOPLE FROM SOME COUNTIES WANT INDEPENDENCE WHICH IS AN INSULT TO WHAT THIS COUNTRY IS ABOUT, THE HEADING IN THIS SECTION EXPLAINS WHAT ENGLAND IS ABOUT. WHERES THE PRIDE? Davido488 ( talk) 01:52, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
The user: Mrsteviec made large changes to the article. In stark contradiction to the orignal and tentatively agreed point that "northern England", and more specifically "the North", was a point of much debate and conflict (in short, there was an agreement to disagree), Mrsteviec decided to add that:
"The North borders the Midlands to the south and Scotland to the north."
...right after the paragraph stating that the term was ambiguous.
As if to confirm this last point, he added a photgraph of a road sign with the writing "the North" on it. This was either a joke, or a major lack of knowledge. The road signs indicate the direction rather than any geographical region. Either way - joke or misinformation - it is certainly not welcome in Wikipedia.
I realise Mrsteviec has worked tirelessly on other articles, but would suggest that this is not one of his better forays. I agree with Lancsalot in that he probably knows relatively little about it. I do not think, as Mrsteviec states, that it is 'obvious' what identities are present - even the article itself suggests that the 'London-based media' (and people?) put sterotypes on people of norther England - and ironically, this is something Mrsteviec kept in his new edit.
To all those who added edits after the Mrsteviec change - please justify your edits and they will be added if most agree with them.
On a positivie note - the organisation structure he provided was beneficial. Logica 16:16, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Agreed about him not removing info, I noticed this myself and have just tried to change the orignal statement as you were writing this. It is all there, but in a different order. But his additions are not welcome. See above statement for clarification. Agreed also that his clearup was actually beneficial (but not the additions!). With regard your point about Lancashire - as I stated above, I do not have the knowledge of the area to state whether there is a specificly Lancashire identity as seperate from Yorkshire. I have no objection to you adding your point to the non-road-sign article (i.e. the orignal), but please refer any objectors to the talk page for you to justify your point. Agreed? Logica 16:08, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
The particular way you added the statement about the North bordering the Midlands in contrast to the above paragraph (even though it lay conspicously at the bottom of the orignal article) and putting in the road sign image was not welcome. Intiially I thought text had been added/removed (there doesn't seem to be a way of telling if text has simply been reorganised than reading it all by eye). Otherwise your organising structure is good, so I will not revert. Rather, the offending definition of the North bordering the Midlands will be removed. The image I feel would confuse rather than make people realise that it's a vaguely defined term. The other image I thought was better, although I bet others would object to its referral to "3 northern regions". I leave it open to suggestions about what the image should be. Also, still unresolved is the discussion between Lancsalot and Mrsteviec in the above section. Thank you for the welcome message, I am sure from reading this I will know how to lay out good articles. Logica 00:52, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
the image could do with a caption explaining the xeno's paradox elements of "HATFIELD AND THE NORTH". i wonder where exactly the signs on the A1 stop saying "THE NORTH"? Morwen - Talk 11:25, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
...Or we could more simply remove the image in case anybody believes that "The North" on these signs actually defines an area rather than simply a relative direction. See the above discussions about the sign. Logica 00:34, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Manchester is often (rightly or wrongly) referred to as the "Capital of the North". Surely there should be a mention of this in the article - any (unbiased) objections? Jhamez84 18:42, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
And surprise, surprise, you're from Manchester, the only place in the 'north' which recognises this claim. The north has no capital and it cannot be clearly defined both geographically or culturally. I'm from Liverpool and don't really identify with a north or it's cultural stereotypes. ~~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gary Parks ( talk • contribs) 15:13, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but asserting that Manchester or York is the capital of the North only asserts this Yorkshire/Lancashire-centric view of the North I have described before. I would strongly disagree with anywhere being described as a 'capital' as this implies some sort of unity, which doesn't exist!!! Please read previous discussions. How would you feel if I suggested Newcastle as the 'capital' of the North? It certainly could be regarded as the 'capital' of where I am. Logica 22:23, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
I have added a lot of serious material to the article since I want it to go beyond whippets and mushy peas and "they talk funny". I realise in England, they seem to take the p*** out of the "regions" all the time - even people from these areas, but the north of England has a very distinctive history (strong Norse & Brythonic influence, the Celtic Church, Scottish border disputes), dialects (and also remnants of older languages including Cumbric), and no article could go without mentioning the well known immigrant communities in Newcastle, Manchester, Bradford etc. -- MacRusgail 17:43, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
There is a Northern identity but the North is really three separate regions: Yorkshire (no South Humberside), the North West and the North East. I find it difficult to understand why anybody would question the existance of a North-Eastern or historic Lancashire identity. Like YorkshirePhoenix I would agree that Yorkshire and historic Lancashire (and probably Cheshire) form a 'Lower North' whilst the rest of Cumbria and the North East are 'Upper North'. There is no capital of the North though Mancunians, Loiners and Novacastrians would probably all have their own opinion on the subject. GordyB 16:32, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
As I have stated before, I do not think that this article deserves to have a great deal of depth about it because I think it quite an arbitrary definition in any case. Rather, I would like to see it more like the Southern England article, which regconises that (1) it is used as a term, and (2) that it is ambiguous. Recent edits, such as removal of text on streotypes I think helps achieve this goal. So even though the article is getting shorter, I think it is getting better. Logoistic 12:45, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
To the user who deleted the 'problems' section, I want to say that I'm going to add it back it. The writing is not brilliant, but I think it's necessary for the article. The article is about a part of England that is _perceived_ to be culturally distinct from the rest, but this perception is based on problematic evidence and is much contested. We have to indicate the problems with the concept of 'The North' if the article is to be truly encyclopedic - as Logoistic says above. In addition, I feel it's better to alter than to delete information, unless there's a good reason for deleting it (which I don't think your edit summary provided: I didn't understand what you meant by "nothing said in this section carries any weight culturally... most certainly Birmingham has as different an accent from the North as it does from the South"?). Hope this won't lead us into an edit war, and looking forward to your views. Polocrunch ( talk) 02:01, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
I have only ever heard the Birmingham accent described as a midlands accent. Can the assertion that it is considered a "northern" accent be removed or referenced. I found this article messy and uninformative, not really the kind of material that should be in an informative encyclopedia. It needs edditing so it is not simply a collection of different peoples contradicting assertions about their views of this area. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.229.250.245 ( talk) 18:24, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
I think people are being too genrious with the northern title, Yorkshire and Lancashire are not northern they are midlands.. they speak like midlands and they are geogrpahically around the middle of the country. 167.1.176.4 ( talk) 10:58, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Standard English is a thing that amuses me somewhat. It is unsurprising that some people consider northern "dialect" as non standard when compared with southern dialect as standard tends to be defined by the Oxford English dictionary. Remind me, which half of the country is Oxford in again?
Aidan Croft ( talk) 16:10, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
If you went and asked people what counties they believe are Northern, I bet most would mention Lancashire and Yorkshire long before any other. Your Midlands theory is pretty insulting, and is of course utter rubbish. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.77.27.67 ( talk) 12:47, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
Lancashire and Yorkshire are the frist two counties that would spring to mind when the north is mentioned. 81.109.148.146
Yorkshire is a huge county, and people in the north of it sound almost the same as people in Durham and Cumbria. The trouble is that Yorkshire and Lancashire see each other as traditional enemies, so linking them together in "the North" is a bit pointless. Epa101 ( talk) 20:01, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
My understanding is that, historically, the River Trent was traditionally used as a major dividing line between the "north" and "south". Particularly, if I remember correctly, the southern boundary of the Council of the North was a line drawn more or less between the Trent and The Wash. In many ways, this still seems a reasonable definition to me, because although Shropshire, Staffordshire, and Derbyshire might nowadays be described as in the Midlands, they are clearly counties where accents, culture, and history begin to change over from southern to northern. Might this be a useful addition to the article? DWaterson ( talk) 17:43, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Hello far Northern chum, I am a Midlander certainly not a northerner, but I find it absolutely amazing anybody could consider Leeds and Manchester to be Midlands, I find insulting that you consider my accent and heritage to be shared with them. I think very, very few people would consider them as Midlanders. They were never in Mercia. Where I'm from I don't mention it to a stranger in Yorkshire. I think you are very much in a minority viewing Lancs. and Yorks as Midland, of course the North-East aren't exactly the same as Yorks and Lancs, but you can claim any pair of areas no matter how close together are different. 08:34, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
The River Trent has never been seen as a dialect boundary between North and South. The old divider between Northern and North-Midland dialect was the Lume-Humber line so that the industrial areas of west/south Yorkshire and most of Lancashire were North-Midland rather than North. (However, the rural areas of Yorkshire, including York itself, were "Northern") However, I don't think that dialect is the only way of defining the North. Some people in the very far North speak a dialect that is Scots for most purposes, but I don't think that makes them Scottish. There are other things that make up regional/national identity. Epa101 ( talk) 16:45, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
This whole article is original research based on water catchment areas for flood management and frankly made up areas research particularly on accents. While there are sources there is a large degree of synthesis which has bone into creating this article and no such "definition" of "the North" exists. The whole article is a prime candidate for deletion due to being primarily OR and Synthesis to further one particular point.-- Lucy-marie ( talk) 17:20, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
What is this one particular point? Colonel Warden ( talk) 22:27, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
It would be worth including a section on county cricket in Lancashire, Yorkshire and County Durham (at least).-- Felix Folio Secundus ( talk) 12:31, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
The bit about missing "the" isn't true. We'd say "I'm going t' ' shops", where the second ' is a glottal stop. It's subtle and you might not always hear it if you're not used to the accent, but it's there. Sounds a bit like how you'd say "tut" if you dropped the second T. We reduce "the" to a stop, but we don't omit it. At least not in the bits of Yorkshire and Lancashire I was born in and have visited.
It's a small point, but do you want your encyclopaedia to be correct or don't you? Somebody else fix it, I can't think how best to put it.
(Edit: Did you know you can't put two apostrophes in a row on a Wikipedia page?)
188.29.164.22 ( talk) 23:40, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
Does anyone have a source for that statement in the lead - in particular, the use of the words "principal cultural area"? I know that to some extent there are shared cultural values in the North, and from the perspective of the North that "the South" can be seen as having some shared cultural values (by the way, it really doesn't - the differences between, say, London, Suffolk and Cornwall are vast...), but a sweeping generalisation like that in the opening paragraph really needs some reliable sources. Is it easiest to change the words "principal cultural area" to, say, "most widely recognisable cultural area"? Are there better alternatives? Ghmyrtle ( talk) 16:24, 3 March 2017 (UTC)
Is there anything particularly interesting about ice hockey in Northern England? All the article says is "People in the UK play it, and two northern teams are rivals". This doesn't seem like much to hang an section on - there doesn't seem to be any particular north-south divide or distinctive northern style. Unless there are any suggestions of what to add, I'll remove this section. Smurrayinchester 15:34, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
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The article uses "Northern England". Is the capital N in the prose right? Anna Frodesiak ( talk) 12:53, 15 December 2018 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 18:07, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
There is a small group of editors determined to push the ancient counties at every turn. The topic has been discussed ad nauseam and the consistent and continuing consensus is that this information has curiosity value at best. It certainly doesn't belong in the infobox in a section assigned to current administrative entities. Accordingly, I will be bold and take it out of the infobox and move it down the page under archaeology or something. If anyone disagrees, please take it up yet again at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject UK geography. -- John Maynard Friedman ( talk) 16:39, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
the Tab is a website produced for university students and is essentially similar to BuzzFeed. I don't believe it ought to be used as a source, least of all when defining aspects of Northern identity and culture. 82.132.184.145 ( talk) 23:09, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
The opening paragraph implied a robust government definition - I really tried to find it - could not - not one that is NPOV and official. BeingObjective ( talk) 20:40, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
The list in the infobox has become just silly. Think of the reader on mobile who doesn't have the show/hide option. The list should be restricted to the ten largest conurbations. 𝕁𝕄𝔽 ( talk) 16:37, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
As well as having the duplicate of "city5", the statistics in this table are of built-up areas, which is most certainly not the same as cities and towns. I would have thought that there is a more appropriate source of statistics for a table with this title. Failing that, the table should be accurately labelled as "Built-up Areas". TedColes ( talk) 11:38, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
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Footnote 1 ("HM Revenue & Customs Advice Teams - Northern England". HMRC.gov.uk. Retrieved on 23 February 2009) is a broken link and does not work.
Furthermore, this is a financial/economic designation anyway, which is at best ephemeral. Since "the North" is a mainly cultural phenomenon (I quote the article!), I recommend cross-referencing instead to television regions, rather than economic bodies. BBC Look North for example covers South Yorkshire and Lincolnshire as well as North Yorkshire and North East and Cumbria.
This is as opposed to Look East, and the other Midland and Southern TV regions. ITV Yorkshire covers Lincolnshire as well. There is a good argument for considering 'the North' to extend from the north-west corner of the Wash to between Stoke on Trent and Crewe. See this map for clarification: http://www.barb.co.uk/images/maps/barb_bbc_map.gif
Lincolnshire people will generally consider themselves Northern rather than Southern, although the southernmost Fen areas may 'blend' more with the Midlands.
Further to this, the three articles Midlands (England), Northern England and Southern England ought to be brought into agreement and have a standard map design, rather than the three we have at the moment. A clarified map can be found here: https://p.twimg.com/AqoKVwLCAAEU6dx.jpg
Thoughts, editors? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.155.250.226 ( talk) 19:55, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
I came across the startling assertion "It is the only other English land aside from the West Country to have a native population with Celtic blood". What is 'Celtic blood'? Is this an attempt to refer to the language Cumbrian, a now-lots relative of Welsh and Cornish? Language and ethnicity are not as closely tied as this passing remark suggests. After all, at one time a Celtic language was the majority language over the whole of what is now England so most of the populatio has some small part of their ancestry which was Celtic speaking. The sentence should be reworded to be clear and correct. -- Nantonos 19:38, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
Is the Flag of Northumbria the flag or the north?
Though the map shows these towns right on the border of what constitutes as the north, and they are stated as sometimes regarded as being in the north; i've never known them to be reffered to as in the South. They are almost certainly northern towns. BertramMurgatroyd
The article at times suggests that there is some kind of common identity between areas of Northern England. Whilst it is true that they share a similar industrial heritage, I would suggest that the North East and Yorkshire do not share a common identity, but Yorkshire and North East identities, respectively. I feel this comes about due to the geographic seperation by the North York Moors and much of rural North Yorkshire. I and others, living in the North East, feel little affiliation with Yorkshire and feel the term "Northern" is often used to evoke a sterotype that is distinctly Yorkshire (as evidenced by the suggestion of the Rose as a symbol of Northern England). For example, the comments that:
"Stereotypical northern activities include whippet-racing and pigeon-breeding" ... can similarly be found in the article referring to Yorkshire:
"The social stereotype of a Yorkshireman has a tendency to include such accessories as a flat cap and a whippet"
Yet the North East does not have a stereotype based on the whippet and pigeon-breeding.
Thus, statements such as:
"This is part of a general rivalry between South and North"... tend to unify where there is division. After all, I doubt much of "the South" would feel an affiliation in a similar way suggested (and hence why the article on Southern England merely points out a geographical area with sub-links rather than suggesting there is any great affiliation like this article does).
Some of this stuff is a bit of a joke, and spoils what seems to start off as a good article.
Hoewever, I realise it is relatively common in Yorkshire to refer to Northern England in this way, when they are in reality referring to Yorkshire. It is interesting that those in the North East do not commonly refer to Northern England in the same way, but localise to the North East.
I have accordingly added a paragraph clearing the above up.
"The United Kingdom goverment accords the northern regions with the same legal status as the prinicipality of Wales."
It doesn't bare any real relevance to the paragraph I orignally wrote so i removed it. It is also rather vauge and thus rather than move it someone else I have removed it completely. If the orignal author would expand the point then it would be more welcome.
"In reality, identites form around smaller regions such as the North East of England and Yorkshire."
...to be replaced with references to the "historic counties" instead (which was later deleted by someone). Whilst this may well be a good intentioned reference to the formation of identities around smaller sub-areas in northern England, it is questionable as to whether the identities form around the historic counties. It is far more simple to highlgiht the current geographical areas that identities form around - such as the North East - something which would be also less confusing given that county boundaries have changed dramatically. Thus, I have revereted to the orignal text. Logica 01:14, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Don't tell me what I know or don't know. For your information I have lived in northern England and even if I haven't anyone with even the slightest grasp of social science and resident in the UK understands which identities exist and which do not. There is a Lancs. identity naturally, but it is absurd to claim that there is a current homogeneous identity for the historic limits of Lancs. on a par with that of Yorkshire. For a start, the Manchester identity stands in the way of this and dominates the region (more people identifying with Manchester than Lancs.) in a way that is not reproduced in Yorkshire. I know you have strong identity with historic Lancs. but you are the exception and not the rule. MRSC 11:33, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Woa, a lot's happened since I last checked this page. Firstly, I am reverting the changes that the user: Mrsteviec performed (see the next chat option for reasons). Secondly, short of actually asking everyone across northern England as to what identity they feel affiliated with, we must rely on the testimony of those living in the regions themselves. Having lived in County Durham all my life, I have no doubt that there exists a North-East identity with little affiliation with Yorkshire. The North York Moors serve as a natural seperator for the North-East and Yorkshire and I feel this is why different identities form - though this specific point is speculative so I will not include this point about the NYM in the actual article. Thirdly, my orignal paragraph suggested Yorkshire had a common identity. I am not a native of Yorkshire and cannot claim to know great amounts about how people feel about their identity, so with regards the Yorkshire/Historic Lancashire clash above, I cannot comment - but the removal of the suggestion of a North-East identity is just plain wrong in my experience. Please see the next section as to why the chances Mrsteviec performed cannot be accepted. Logica 14:12, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
As I've already said - in highlighting an identity it is difficult to get reliable documentary evidence. One suggestion could be to look at the coverage of the local media. However, this is not foolproof. For example, the BBC local news in the North East is Look North for the "North East and Cumbria", even though I feel Cumbria is felt as seperate from the North East. But you could also say the use of the specific term "North East" as distinct from "Cumbria" could be indicative of a North East identity. You can also look at other organisations that specifically highlight a regional identity. A strong case can be put for the North East having a strong identity in that there was a blueprint for a North East Assembly, but even this might be rejected by the fact that a public vote rejected the proposal quite strongly. The fact that One NorthEast, the development agency, defines its limits to the "North East" also suggests that a North East identity is apparant.
The problem arises in that the national press (and others) frequently refer to "the North" rather than specify to a smaller region such as the North East. Many articles refer to "the North" not only to identify a geographical area of the England, but imbue it with some sense of coherent identity. Indeed, the continual reference to such things as (for example) binge drinking being highest in the "North of England" lend further credence to the claim that the North of England/northern England (whatever you want to call it) has a coherent identity. Just because binge drinking is high across an area defined in quite an arbitrary fashion does not mean to say it has a coherent identity. I myself know this through personal experience of a lifetime living in my region, but the only counter argument is to say that they don't appreciate the local identities - and anyone could say "you don't really know it". James Joyce did it in Ulysses, but I don't think Wikipedia can stomach it. Ideally, surveys of such identity would rest the matter, but I can't come across any such.
What I suggest is to use documentary evidence in the form of the regions that local media, organisations and the like use. What we are looking for is a coherence in identity. We might be able to use the "you don't really know it" argument for those that are deemed remote from the region, such as, for example, the Daily Mail using continual references to the "North of England" in its articles, what with it being a national (and London-based) newspaper. Documentary evidence might not be an exhaustive list. I even suggest highligting a link to another article that discusses this, and the evident problems that are involved. I've got a lot of work to be getting on with (last year at uni) so I don't know when I'd be able to do this, but I plan to do it at some point if people approve? Logica 01:45, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
As an aside, the very fact that there is an article on the "North of England" itself supports the claim to a coherent identity by inferring it with a "history" and "people" section. We observe that there is no such in depth sections in "Southern England". Rather, it rightly points out that it is just an area for identification purposes rather than having any sense of common identity.
We have thus come to a point that I thought should have been there from the start - what justification is there for having an article on northern England that simply supports assumptions about its coherence as an identity. At the very least these issues should be highlighted more prominantly rather than the paragraph that I initially added. Logica 01:46, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
UPDATE: Ok, I've thought about this, and realised that it would violate the original research policy to start inferring things from local media, organisations (...etc) about identity. I'll try and get some references when I have some time, but I fear this will be a fair amount of time away, as I've said before. Logica 22:29, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
WERE ALL ENGLISH, EVERYONE STOP TRYING TO PULL OUR COUNTRY APART, NORTH ENGLAND ENGLISH AND PROUD, SOUTH ENGLAND ENGLISH AND PROUD. WE'VE FOUGHT FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS FOR IT TO BE THAT WAY AND NOW A FEW STUPID MINORITY GROUP OF PEOPLE FROM SOME COUNTIES WANT INDEPENDENCE WHICH IS AN INSULT TO WHAT THIS COUNTRY IS ABOUT, THE HEADING IN THIS SECTION EXPLAINS WHAT ENGLAND IS ABOUT. WHERES THE PRIDE? Davido488 ( talk) 01:52, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
The user: Mrsteviec made large changes to the article. In stark contradiction to the orignal and tentatively agreed point that "northern England", and more specifically "the North", was a point of much debate and conflict (in short, there was an agreement to disagree), Mrsteviec decided to add that:
"The North borders the Midlands to the south and Scotland to the north."
...right after the paragraph stating that the term was ambiguous.
As if to confirm this last point, he added a photgraph of a road sign with the writing "the North" on it. This was either a joke, or a major lack of knowledge. The road signs indicate the direction rather than any geographical region. Either way - joke or misinformation - it is certainly not welcome in Wikipedia.
I realise Mrsteviec has worked tirelessly on other articles, but would suggest that this is not one of his better forays. I agree with Lancsalot in that he probably knows relatively little about it. I do not think, as Mrsteviec states, that it is 'obvious' what identities are present - even the article itself suggests that the 'London-based media' (and people?) put sterotypes on people of norther England - and ironically, this is something Mrsteviec kept in his new edit.
To all those who added edits after the Mrsteviec change - please justify your edits and they will be added if most agree with them.
On a positivie note - the organisation structure he provided was beneficial. Logica 16:16, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Agreed about him not removing info, I noticed this myself and have just tried to change the orignal statement as you were writing this. It is all there, but in a different order. But his additions are not welcome. See above statement for clarification. Agreed also that his clearup was actually beneficial (but not the additions!). With regard your point about Lancashire - as I stated above, I do not have the knowledge of the area to state whether there is a specificly Lancashire identity as seperate from Yorkshire. I have no objection to you adding your point to the non-road-sign article (i.e. the orignal), but please refer any objectors to the talk page for you to justify your point. Agreed? Logica 16:08, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
The particular way you added the statement about the North bordering the Midlands in contrast to the above paragraph (even though it lay conspicously at the bottom of the orignal article) and putting in the road sign image was not welcome. Intiially I thought text had been added/removed (there doesn't seem to be a way of telling if text has simply been reorganised than reading it all by eye). Otherwise your organising structure is good, so I will not revert. Rather, the offending definition of the North bordering the Midlands will be removed. The image I feel would confuse rather than make people realise that it's a vaguely defined term. The other image I thought was better, although I bet others would object to its referral to "3 northern regions". I leave it open to suggestions about what the image should be. Also, still unresolved is the discussion between Lancsalot and Mrsteviec in the above section. Thank you for the welcome message, I am sure from reading this I will know how to lay out good articles. Logica 00:52, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
the image could do with a caption explaining the xeno's paradox elements of "HATFIELD AND THE NORTH". i wonder where exactly the signs on the A1 stop saying "THE NORTH"? Morwen - Talk 11:25, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
...Or we could more simply remove the image in case anybody believes that "The North" on these signs actually defines an area rather than simply a relative direction. See the above discussions about the sign. Logica 00:34, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Manchester is often (rightly or wrongly) referred to as the "Capital of the North". Surely there should be a mention of this in the article - any (unbiased) objections? Jhamez84 18:42, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
And surprise, surprise, you're from Manchester, the only place in the 'north' which recognises this claim. The north has no capital and it cannot be clearly defined both geographically or culturally. I'm from Liverpool and don't really identify with a north or it's cultural stereotypes. ~~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gary Parks ( talk • contribs) 15:13, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but asserting that Manchester or York is the capital of the North only asserts this Yorkshire/Lancashire-centric view of the North I have described before. I would strongly disagree with anywhere being described as a 'capital' as this implies some sort of unity, which doesn't exist!!! Please read previous discussions. How would you feel if I suggested Newcastle as the 'capital' of the North? It certainly could be regarded as the 'capital' of where I am. Logica 22:23, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
I have added a lot of serious material to the article since I want it to go beyond whippets and mushy peas and "they talk funny". I realise in England, they seem to take the p*** out of the "regions" all the time - even people from these areas, but the north of England has a very distinctive history (strong Norse & Brythonic influence, the Celtic Church, Scottish border disputes), dialects (and also remnants of older languages including Cumbric), and no article could go without mentioning the well known immigrant communities in Newcastle, Manchester, Bradford etc. -- MacRusgail 17:43, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
There is a Northern identity but the North is really three separate regions: Yorkshire (no South Humberside), the North West and the North East. I find it difficult to understand why anybody would question the existance of a North-Eastern or historic Lancashire identity. Like YorkshirePhoenix I would agree that Yorkshire and historic Lancashire (and probably Cheshire) form a 'Lower North' whilst the rest of Cumbria and the North East are 'Upper North'. There is no capital of the North though Mancunians, Loiners and Novacastrians would probably all have their own opinion on the subject. GordyB 16:32, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
As I have stated before, I do not think that this article deserves to have a great deal of depth about it because I think it quite an arbitrary definition in any case. Rather, I would like to see it more like the Southern England article, which regconises that (1) it is used as a term, and (2) that it is ambiguous. Recent edits, such as removal of text on streotypes I think helps achieve this goal. So even though the article is getting shorter, I think it is getting better. Logoistic 12:45, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
To the user who deleted the 'problems' section, I want to say that I'm going to add it back it. The writing is not brilliant, but I think it's necessary for the article. The article is about a part of England that is _perceived_ to be culturally distinct from the rest, but this perception is based on problematic evidence and is much contested. We have to indicate the problems with the concept of 'The North' if the article is to be truly encyclopedic - as Logoistic says above. In addition, I feel it's better to alter than to delete information, unless there's a good reason for deleting it (which I don't think your edit summary provided: I didn't understand what you meant by "nothing said in this section carries any weight culturally... most certainly Birmingham has as different an accent from the North as it does from the South"?). Hope this won't lead us into an edit war, and looking forward to your views. Polocrunch ( talk) 02:01, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
I have only ever heard the Birmingham accent described as a midlands accent. Can the assertion that it is considered a "northern" accent be removed or referenced. I found this article messy and uninformative, not really the kind of material that should be in an informative encyclopedia. It needs edditing so it is not simply a collection of different peoples contradicting assertions about their views of this area. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.229.250.245 ( talk) 18:24, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
I think people are being too genrious with the northern title, Yorkshire and Lancashire are not northern they are midlands.. they speak like midlands and they are geogrpahically around the middle of the country. 167.1.176.4 ( talk) 10:58, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Standard English is a thing that amuses me somewhat. It is unsurprising that some people consider northern "dialect" as non standard when compared with southern dialect as standard tends to be defined by the Oxford English dictionary. Remind me, which half of the country is Oxford in again?
Aidan Croft ( talk) 16:10, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
If you went and asked people what counties they believe are Northern, I bet most would mention Lancashire and Yorkshire long before any other. Your Midlands theory is pretty insulting, and is of course utter rubbish. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.77.27.67 ( talk) 12:47, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
Lancashire and Yorkshire are the frist two counties that would spring to mind when the north is mentioned. 81.109.148.146
Yorkshire is a huge county, and people in the north of it sound almost the same as people in Durham and Cumbria. The trouble is that Yorkshire and Lancashire see each other as traditional enemies, so linking them together in "the North" is a bit pointless. Epa101 ( talk) 20:01, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
My understanding is that, historically, the River Trent was traditionally used as a major dividing line between the "north" and "south". Particularly, if I remember correctly, the southern boundary of the Council of the North was a line drawn more or less between the Trent and The Wash. In many ways, this still seems a reasonable definition to me, because although Shropshire, Staffordshire, and Derbyshire might nowadays be described as in the Midlands, they are clearly counties where accents, culture, and history begin to change over from southern to northern. Might this be a useful addition to the article? DWaterson ( talk) 17:43, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Hello far Northern chum, I am a Midlander certainly not a northerner, but I find it absolutely amazing anybody could consider Leeds and Manchester to be Midlands, I find insulting that you consider my accent and heritage to be shared with them. I think very, very few people would consider them as Midlanders. They were never in Mercia. Where I'm from I don't mention it to a stranger in Yorkshire. I think you are very much in a minority viewing Lancs. and Yorks as Midland, of course the North-East aren't exactly the same as Yorks and Lancs, but you can claim any pair of areas no matter how close together are different. 08:34, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
The River Trent has never been seen as a dialect boundary between North and South. The old divider between Northern and North-Midland dialect was the Lume-Humber line so that the industrial areas of west/south Yorkshire and most of Lancashire were North-Midland rather than North. (However, the rural areas of Yorkshire, including York itself, were "Northern") However, I don't think that dialect is the only way of defining the North. Some people in the very far North speak a dialect that is Scots for most purposes, but I don't think that makes them Scottish. There are other things that make up regional/national identity. Epa101 ( talk) 16:45, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
This whole article is original research based on water catchment areas for flood management and frankly made up areas research particularly on accents. While there are sources there is a large degree of synthesis which has bone into creating this article and no such "definition" of "the North" exists. The whole article is a prime candidate for deletion due to being primarily OR and Synthesis to further one particular point.-- Lucy-marie ( talk) 17:20, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
What is this one particular point? Colonel Warden ( talk) 22:27, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
It would be worth including a section on county cricket in Lancashire, Yorkshire and County Durham (at least).-- Felix Folio Secundus ( talk) 12:31, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
The bit about missing "the" isn't true. We'd say "I'm going t' ' shops", where the second ' is a glottal stop. It's subtle and you might not always hear it if you're not used to the accent, but it's there. Sounds a bit like how you'd say "tut" if you dropped the second T. We reduce "the" to a stop, but we don't omit it. At least not in the bits of Yorkshire and Lancashire I was born in and have visited.
It's a small point, but do you want your encyclopaedia to be correct or don't you? Somebody else fix it, I can't think how best to put it.
(Edit: Did you know you can't put two apostrophes in a row on a Wikipedia page?)
188.29.164.22 ( talk) 23:40, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
Does anyone have a source for that statement in the lead - in particular, the use of the words "principal cultural area"? I know that to some extent there are shared cultural values in the North, and from the perspective of the North that "the South" can be seen as having some shared cultural values (by the way, it really doesn't - the differences between, say, London, Suffolk and Cornwall are vast...), but a sweeping generalisation like that in the opening paragraph really needs some reliable sources. Is it easiest to change the words "principal cultural area" to, say, "most widely recognisable cultural area"? Are there better alternatives? Ghmyrtle ( talk) 16:24, 3 March 2017 (UTC)
Is there anything particularly interesting about ice hockey in Northern England? All the article says is "People in the UK play it, and two northern teams are rivals". This doesn't seem like much to hang an section on - there doesn't seem to be any particular north-south divide or distinctive northern style. Unless there are any suggestions of what to add, I'll remove this section. Smurrayinchester 15:34, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
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The article uses "Northern England". Is the capital N in the prose right? Anna Frodesiak ( talk) 12:53, 15 December 2018 (UTC)
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There is a small group of editors determined to push the ancient counties at every turn. The topic has been discussed ad nauseam and the consistent and continuing consensus is that this information has curiosity value at best. It certainly doesn't belong in the infobox in a section assigned to current administrative entities. Accordingly, I will be bold and take it out of the infobox and move it down the page under archaeology or something. If anyone disagrees, please take it up yet again at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject UK geography. -- John Maynard Friedman ( talk) 16:39, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
the Tab is a website produced for university students and is essentially similar to BuzzFeed. I don't believe it ought to be used as a source, least of all when defining aspects of Northern identity and culture. 82.132.184.145 ( talk) 23:09, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
The opening paragraph implied a robust government definition - I really tried to find it - could not - not one that is NPOV and official. BeingObjective ( talk) 20:40, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
The list in the infobox has become just silly. Think of the reader on mobile who doesn't have the show/hide option. The list should be restricted to the ten largest conurbations. 𝕁𝕄𝔽 ( talk) 16:37, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
As well as having the duplicate of "city5", the statistics in this table are of built-up areas, which is most certainly not the same as cities and towns. I would have thought that there is a more appropriate source of statistics for a table with this title. Failing that, the table should be accurately labelled as "Built-up Areas". TedColes ( talk) 11:38, 5 March 2024 (UTC)