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This article is highly biased with factual errors Aristovoul0s 21:44, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Guys, why are you in an edit war over the name TRNC?, thats a little silly. It ISNT called 'Northern Cyprus' by the world it is refered to as the TRNC. If it wasnt then we wouldnt have this article would we. Can the nationalists stop the nonsense and refer to the flag, president etc as 'TRNC'.
And BEFORE I get 4000 pages of UN legalesse sent my way I would remind people of wikipedias rules on names...the most common and usual useage gets used, look it up as Im not going to spend any more time on this sillyness. Its an article on the TRNC so lets call it the TRNC, just like the majority of the world does. Adam777 23:01, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
I've protected the article. First settle your disagreements by discussing them civilly on this talk page. Edit warring doesn't benefit the article, or wikipedia in general. Readers have a right to expect a stable article, they shouldn't have to flipflop between two different articles every five minutes. A ecis I'm too busy acting like I'm not naive. 13:21, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
Aecis mentioned this page protection and the accusations of involvement on WP:ANI, and, having reviewed the recent edits, I've determined that any accusations that Aecis is involved are nonsense. Please focus on resolving the dispute, not trying to involve uninvolved parties in it. - A Man In Bl♟ck ( conspire | past ops) 17:07, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
I will briefly answer one point E104421 has raised. I will respond to the rest later today or tomorrow, depending on the time I've got. I've kept the totallydisputed tag in place, because that's the way the article was as I came across it. I haven't sought for a compromise between the disputed versions, because that is not up to me. I'm not a judge, I'm not King Solomon. It is up to those involved in the edit war to find some common ground and to work out the differences you've got. And so far, you (plural) have done nothing of the sort. It's alright to ask me questions about why I did what, but remember that this talk page is about the article, not about me. Try to focus on discussing the content of this article. If you want to ask me questions, I suggest we continue that discussion on my user talk page. A ecis I'm too busy acting like I'm not naive. 10:22, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
As i stated in my edit summary the capitals were a mistake writen by user 220.240.8.182 first at 01:56, on 25 September 2006 and not my POV push. I tried to add the removed sentences back but edit conflict happened when i pressed the save page button, when i pressed again it saved the unedited version. This was a mistake, i said before in the edit summary, check the history page (edit summaries). You said "you are not that new in Wikipedia" but forgetting the basic principle to assume good will. If i had a time to check the article, i would have removed those capitals. Instead of discussing the issue via talk/discussion page you erased all that parts, then i removed the capitals and restored the parts. After all i decided to quit for a while and when i checked the article again next day, it turned out to be "totally disputed" one. For the threatening, you need not to be an administrator..., what i disagree is your manner. E104421 13:12, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
E104421, I've said it before, User:A Man In Black confirmed it, and I'll say it again: I was not and am not involved in this edit war in any way, shape or form. Nothing you say constitutes any involvement whatsoever. You may disagree with my actions, that's all good, but that doesn't make me involved. I'm still willing to answer questions, but I will not have my impartiality questioned. And that is the last thing I will say of the allegations. A ecis I'm too busy acting like I'm not naive. 14:02, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone else think that it's time to get this article unprotected?-- Tekleni 11:10, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
I think this article is Turkish POV anyway, so I support the totally disputed tag. It gives too much weight to the Turkish position. Check the introduction for example:
That is POV as it implies that the TRNC is a state in the first place. The position of everyone outside Turkey is clear; the introduction should read something like TRNC is the name given by the secessionist regime set up on a militarily occupied by Turkey northern part of the Republic of Cyprus to the territory it claims to administer. There are 192 states in the UN, out of which only 1 recognizes the TRNC - that is 0,52%. How come that POV gets so much weight which is totally out of proportion to its acceptance. I must conclude it is a violation of the NPOV policy, and specifically WP:NPOV#Undue weight. How about the article's title, is that not also POV? I hadn't really seriously considered addressing this issue before as I didn't want to have to put up with the Turkish outcry which would certainly ensure, but now as we're required to discuss all issues, let's get down to business.-- Tekleni 11:54, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Tekleni, disputes like these are the reason why I won't unprotect the article. Now they are being held at the talk page, but the moment the article is unprotected, the dispute will move to the article, and the edit war will start all over again. I don't care who's right and who's wrong, I don't care who's guilty and who's innocent. Such actions are detrimental to wikipedia and can never be justified, regardless of the cause. A ecis I'm too busy acting like I'm not naive. 13:37, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm strongly against renaming this article. There exits Turkish Republic of Nortern Cyprus and there is no POV with its existance. Greek side does not reconize it but Turkish side recognize it. There are many articles in wikipedia that are related with disputed issues. If you want to make a disputed article neutral, first try to state your counter arguments in the talk/discussion page, then try to balance the article by providing information based on reliable sources. Trying to rename or delete the articles which do not reflect your POV is not a reasonable way but just a kind of vandalism. E104421 13:09, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Just my two cents. There are POV edits on both sides occuring and as more editors with a pre-disposed opinion join the debate the possibility of reaching an agreement seems to be less and less. Issues from this disagreement are now finding their way onto other Cypriot related articles. I suggest that the issue of the TRNC article being or not being part of the Cyprus article be taken to a formal mediation whose findings will be binding. In addition it seems like a good opportunity to sort out if we call the TRNC the TRNC or 'Occupied Cyprus' or whatever else is the term du jour. Any thoughts people? Adam777 17:20, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
What admin status? •NikoSilver• 20:21, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
Hold on a minute. What exactly are you guys fighting about right now? It's a bit difficult for the outsider to find out what exactly the competing options are here. Is it simply about a move question between Northern Cyprus and Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus? Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:44, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm just gonna butt in here, since I have this watchlisted for some reason. Mediation on Wikipedia is strictly informal. You could get a mediator, but that mediator would just be a user trying to help sort out the dispute, not someone with the power to enforce a decision. We don't do proper binding mediation on Wikipedia. - A Man In Bl♟ck ( conspire | past ops) 13:34, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
No such thign as binding arbitration on Wikipedia, either. The Arbcom only handles disciplinary issues, not content issues. Informal mediation is pretty much it. - A Man In Bl♟ck ( conspire | past ops) 15:12, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
From experience, they reject content issues. They just deal with disciplinary or other conduct issues, that's all. (Occasionally they also deal with policy, but that's much rarer, and also wouldn't be relevant to this.) - A Man In Bl♟ck ( conspire | past ops) 15:49, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
I seriously doubt whether the Greek Name for the "TRNC" recently added to the articles intro is relevant. Greek does not have any legal status in the TRNC, adding a Greek name for it makes it look like Greek is an official language of the TRNC or similar. And I doubt whether any Greek would actually refer to Northern Cyprus as the "TRNC", I think it is more likely that this Greek name was created by the Turkish authorities of the TRNC, wishing it was used. Globo 04:04, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
I appreciate the willingness to be bold, but I don't recall there being any consensus to remove the infobox and revamp the intro like that. Let's try to work collaboratively instead. Khoi khoi 18:52, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
OK - maybe I want to far with the infobox (considering that even Sealand and the Kingdom of Lovely) have infoboxes ;-) Everyone happy now?-- Tekleni 18:57, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
I just started to read though the article, as I do with multiple articles on occasion as many times edits will leave an article with less than desirable grammar.
People...try reading the first SENTENCE of the 'Background' section. That has to be one of the longest sentences known to man. However Im sure that any edits I make will be reverted and fourty instances of the word 'ILLEGAL' added as well as a good thousand words of UN babble.
So Im going to post my changes here and you can spit acid at them from afar, that way the article doesnt see-saw back and forth.
My edits are meant to make that paragraph easier to read, conform to certain basic English grammar and add clarity where it is lacking.
It currently reads.....
The TRNC was unilaterally proclaimed in 1983, nine years after the Greek Cypriot coup d'etat that was carried out by supporters of EOKA-B with backing from the Greek military junta of 1967-1974, and the ensuing Turkish invasion of Cyprus, which established the new de facto entity on Cyprus as a dependency of Turkey and whose military maintain a strong presence in the TRNC to this day.
I propose....
The TRNC was unilaterally established in 1983 nine years after a Greek Cypriot Coup d’etat. The short lived Coup was carried out by supporters of EOKA-B with backing from the ruling Greek military Junta which controlled Greece from 1967 to 1974. The ensuing Turkish invasion of Cyprus established a new de facto political entity in Cyprus which is a dependency of Turkey. The Turkish military maintain a strong presence in the TRNC to this day.
Right then.... 'Short lived' becuase the coup only lasted a few days. A casual reader would infer the coup lasted indefinately.
'ruling Military Junta'.... a lot of people wouldnt be aware what a JUnta is so a little clarification is added.
'from 1967 to 1974'.... removed the '-' that doesnt belong in an written piece.
'The ensuing.... to show the timeline
'de facto political entity'.... a 'de facto' entity could be anything, a 'de facto political entity' shows what was established
Not everybody is as familiar with the details of Cyprus as those that post here (and we could argue about those people as well but thats besides the point), therefore some clarification is needed. Frankly it reads very poorly at the moment. Adam777 18:16, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
I Support that change. In fact, I will implement it and see what happens. Globo 05:55, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
ENOUGH. Personal attacks stop here. Discuss article content, not editor's ethnicities. Please. -- 210 physicq ( c) 00:52, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Why was my lead always being reverted. It was not that bad:
Reasons for removing it were "I don't like it" and "it's aggressive POV". Well, as this regime came into being due to Turkish chauvinist aggression, it should be right at home here. How many times do I have to say it? Legitimizing this regime amounts to a breach of WP:NPOV#Undue weight; even all (save Turkey) of the so-called "Turkic states" don't recognize it.-- Euthymios 00:34, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
OK enough is enough. UN is consensus organisation like WP. OK? UN says TRNC is "legally invalid". Every nation agrees except Turkey! That is 100% fact and 100% NPOV. What is the problem???? Khorshid 01:08, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I disagree that we have to follow the UN on everything. It's not like they're completely unbiased on all subjects. Khoi khoi 01:12, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
TRNC is not some sort of philosophical or mathematical proposition. It exists phsyically, therefore it is notable, as A. Garnet so correctly put long ago. It is there, its political status is a different issue. As for the intro.. You know, some of the propositions that have been put forward are very un-encyclopedic and inflammatory. The political status of TRNC and its history is talked about vastly in the body of the article already. And let's not forget that it was the SAME UN that held a referendum in TRNC in 2004 SEPERATELY THAN THE ONE IN THE SOUTH as such, it overrides a 1983 resolution, since such act of holding a referendum is a statement of the recognition of TRNC as a seperate political entity. It is as simple as that. To claim as illegal a land in which the United Nations held a referendum is a live-in-the-past attitude. The invasion could have been illegal, but it has been more then 30 years since then, and what matters is if TRNC is a seperate political entity today. And the fact that UN held a seperate referendum is, at least, a recognition by the so-called party of its character as a seperate political structure and entity. UN never held a referendum in Nagorno-Karabakh or Chechnya. Baristarim 01:46, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
UN held a seperate referendum, which implies that TRNC is a political entity capable of taking care of itself and deciding its future. Its dependance on Turkey is not relevant, since many other "sovereign" states such as the Vatican, Liechtestein etc are ten times more dependent on other countries than TRNC. UN has not held a seperate referendum in Nagorno-Karabakh nor South Ossetia, which implies that UN is still not convinced of their "adequate seperateness" from the side laying claims on them. I don't want to get into a debate about neither of these territories, but just know that the UN referendum in 2004 has had huge implications in the legal world, even though it was rejected by the South. In fact, as a lawyer, I can tell you that TRNC has much more right to declare its independence today since, by rejecting the referendum, it can be easily argued that the other side is refusing the de-facto reality that has developed in the last thiry years pertaining to the development of a seperate political entity in the north, and therefore, has lost its right to claim it. Mark my words, what I just said is much more valid legally than "i refuse to recognize TRNC because it is illegal". Whether you agree with the argument about the south losing its claims on the north is not the same thing, I am just giving you a legal run-down of the current situation. Baristarim 02:07, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
The only reason that TRNC is still in this situation is because of accession negotiations of Turkey with the EU. If Turkey were already a member of the EU, TRNC would be perfectly justified to declare its outright independence from a legal point of view since the other side rejected a UN APPROVED referendum (UN is the epitome of international law, so unless God himself is going to come in and decide for us, we have to make do with it). And the south knows that its only chance of stopping that is trying to get concessions from Turkey during its accession negotiations, since, believe me when I say this, TRNC is definitely entitled, under international law, to declare its independence since the rejection of the referendum by the south under the concept of "loss of right to sovereignty" over a specific territory, the same principal that will give Kosovo its independence later this year. So please keep things in context. Since 2004, TRNC is no longer "illegal", but it has "unclear status". Baristarim 02:14, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | → | Archive 10 |
This article is highly biased with factual errors Aristovoul0s 21:44, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Guys, why are you in an edit war over the name TRNC?, thats a little silly. It ISNT called 'Northern Cyprus' by the world it is refered to as the TRNC. If it wasnt then we wouldnt have this article would we. Can the nationalists stop the nonsense and refer to the flag, president etc as 'TRNC'.
And BEFORE I get 4000 pages of UN legalesse sent my way I would remind people of wikipedias rules on names...the most common and usual useage gets used, look it up as Im not going to spend any more time on this sillyness. Its an article on the TRNC so lets call it the TRNC, just like the majority of the world does. Adam777 23:01, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
I've protected the article. First settle your disagreements by discussing them civilly on this talk page. Edit warring doesn't benefit the article, or wikipedia in general. Readers have a right to expect a stable article, they shouldn't have to flipflop between two different articles every five minutes. A ecis I'm too busy acting like I'm not naive. 13:21, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
Aecis mentioned this page protection and the accusations of involvement on WP:ANI, and, having reviewed the recent edits, I've determined that any accusations that Aecis is involved are nonsense. Please focus on resolving the dispute, not trying to involve uninvolved parties in it. - A Man In Bl♟ck ( conspire | past ops) 17:07, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
I will briefly answer one point E104421 has raised. I will respond to the rest later today or tomorrow, depending on the time I've got. I've kept the totallydisputed tag in place, because that's the way the article was as I came across it. I haven't sought for a compromise between the disputed versions, because that is not up to me. I'm not a judge, I'm not King Solomon. It is up to those involved in the edit war to find some common ground and to work out the differences you've got. And so far, you (plural) have done nothing of the sort. It's alright to ask me questions about why I did what, but remember that this talk page is about the article, not about me. Try to focus on discussing the content of this article. If you want to ask me questions, I suggest we continue that discussion on my user talk page. A ecis I'm too busy acting like I'm not naive. 10:22, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
As i stated in my edit summary the capitals were a mistake writen by user 220.240.8.182 first at 01:56, on 25 September 2006 and not my POV push. I tried to add the removed sentences back but edit conflict happened when i pressed the save page button, when i pressed again it saved the unedited version. This was a mistake, i said before in the edit summary, check the history page (edit summaries). You said "you are not that new in Wikipedia" but forgetting the basic principle to assume good will. If i had a time to check the article, i would have removed those capitals. Instead of discussing the issue via talk/discussion page you erased all that parts, then i removed the capitals and restored the parts. After all i decided to quit for a while and when i checked the article again next day, it turned out to be "totally disputed" one. For the threatening, you need not to be an administrator..., what i disagree is your manner. E104421 13:12, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
E104421, I've said it before, User:A Man In Black confirmed it, and I'll say it again: I was not and am not involved in this edit war in any way, shape or form. Nothing you say constitutes any involvement whatsoever. You may disagree with my actions, that's all good, but that doesn't make me involved. I'm still willing to answer questions, but I will not have my impartiality questioned. And that is the last thing I will say of the allegations. A ecis I'm too busy acting like I'm not naive. 14:02, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone else think that it's time to get this article unprotected?-- Tekleni 11:10, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
I think this article is Turkish POV anyway, so I support the totally disputed tag. It gives too much weight to the Turkish position. Check the introduction for example:
That is POV as it implies that the TRNC is a state in the first place. The position of everyone outside Turkey is clear; the introduction should read something like TRNC is the name given by the secessionist regime set up on a militarily occupied by Turkey northern part of the Republic of Cyprus to the territory it claims to administer. There are 192 states in the UN, out of which only 1 recognizes the TRNC - that is 0,52%. How come that POV gets so much weight which is totally out of proportion to its acceptance. I must conclude it is a violation of the NPOV policy, and specifically WP:NPOV#Undue weight. How about the article's title, is that not also POV? I hadn't really seriously considered addressing this issue before as I didn't want to have to put up with the Turkish outcry which would certainly ensure, but now as we're required to discuss all issues, let's get down to business.-- Tekleni 11:54, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Tekleni, disputes like these are the reason why I won't unprotect the article. Now they are being held at the talk page, but the moment the article is unprotected, the dispute will move to the article, and the edit war will start all over again. I don't care who's right and who's wrong, I don't care who's guilty and who's innocent. Such actions are detrimental to wikipedia and can never be justified, regardless of the cause. A ecis I'm too busy acting like I'm not naive. 13:37, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm strongly against renaming this article. There exits Turkish Republic of Nortern Cyprus and there is no POV with its existance. Greek side does not reconize it but Turkish side recognize it. There are many articles in wikipedia that are related with disputed issues. If you want to make a disputed article neutral, first try to state your counter arguments in the talk/discussion page, then try to balance the article by providing information based on reliable sources. Trying to rename or delete the articles which do not reflect your POV is not a reasonable way but just a kind of vandalism. E104421 13:09, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Just my two cents. There are POV edits on both sides occuring and as more editors with a pre-disposed opinion join the debate the possibility of reaching an agreement seems to be less and less. Issues from this disagreement are now finding their way onto other Cypriot related articles. I suggest that the issue of the TRNC article being or not being part of the Cyprus article be taken to a formal mediation whose findings will be binding. In addition it seems like a good opportunity to sort out if we call the TRNC the TRNC or 'Occupied Cyprus' or whatever else is the term du jour. Any thoughts people? Adam777 17:20, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
What admin status? •NikoSilver• 20:21, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
Hold on a minute. What exactly are you guys fighting about right now? It's a bit difficult for the outsider to find out what exactly the competing options are here. Is it simply about a move question between Northern Cyprus and Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus? Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:44, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm just gonna butt in here, since I have this watchlisted for some reason. Mediation on Wikipedia is strictly informal. You could get a mediator, but that mediator would just be a user trying to help sort out the dispute, not someone with the power to enforce a decision. We don't do proper binding mediation on Wikipedia. - A Man In Bl♟ck ( conspire | past ops) 13:34, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
No such thign as binding arbitration on Wikipedia, either. The Arbcom only handles disciplinary issues, not content issues. Informal mediation is pretty much it. - A Man In Bl♟ck ( conspire | past ops) 15:12, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
From experience, they reject content issues. They just deal with disciplinary or other conduct issues, that's all. (Occasionally they also deal with policy, but that's much rarer, and also wouldn't be relevant to this.) - A Man In Bl♟ck ( conspire | past ops) 15:49, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
I seriously doubt whether the Greek Name for the "TRNC" recently added to the articles intro is relevant. Greek does not have any legal status in the TRNC, adding a Greek name for it makes it look like Greek is an official language of the TRNC or similar. And I doubt whether any Greek would actually refer to Northern Cyprus as the "TRNC", I think it is more likely that this Greek name was created by the Turkish authorities of the TRNC, wishing it was used. Globo 04:04, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
I appreciate the willingness to be bold, but I don't recall there being any consensus to remove the infobox and revamp the intro like that. Let's try to work collaboratively instead. Khoi khoi 18:52, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
OK - maybe I want to far with the infobox (considering that even Sealand and the Kingdom of Lovely) have infoboxes ;-) Everyone happy now?-- Tekleni 18:57, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
I just started to read though the article, as I do with multiple articles on occasion as many times edits will leave an article with less than desirable grammar.
People...try reading the first SENTENCE of the 'Background' section. That has to be one of the longest sentences known to man. However Im sure that any edits I make will be reverted and fourty instances of the word 'ILLEGAL' added as well as a good thousand words of UN babble.
So Im going to post my changes here and you can spit acid at them from afar, that way the article doesnt see-saw back and forth.
My edits are meant to make that paragraph easier to read, conform to certain basic English grammar and add clarity where it is lacking.
It currently reads.....
The TRNC was unilaterally proclaimed in 1983, nine years after the Greek Cypriot coup d'etat that was carried out by supporters of EOKA-B with backing from the Greek military junta of 1967-1974, and the ensuing Turkish invasion of Cyprus, which established the new de facto entity on Cyprus as a dependency of Turkey and whose military maintain a strong presence in the TRNC to this day.
I propose....
The TRNC was unilaterally established in 1983 nine years after a Greek Cypriot Coup d’etat. The short lived Coup was carried out by supporters of EOKA-B with backing from the ruling Greek military Junta which controlled Greece from 1967 to 1974. The ensuing Turkish invasion of Cyprus established a new de facto political entity in Cyprus which is a dependency of Turkey. The Turkish military maintain a strong presence in the TRNC to this day.
Right then.... 'Short lived' becuase the coup only lasted a few days. A casual reader would infer the coup lasted indefinately.
'ruling Military Junta'.... a lot of people wouldnt be aware what a JUnta is so a little clarification is added.
'from 1967 to 1974'.... removed the '-' that doesnt belong in an written piece.
'The ensuing.... to show the timeline
'de facto political entity'.... a 'de facto' entity could be anything, a 'de facto political entity' shows what was established
Not everybody is as familiar with the details of Cyprus as those that post here (and we could argue about those people as well but thats besides the point), therefore some clarification is needed. Frankly it reads very poorly at the moment. Adam777 18:16, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
I Support that change. In fact, I will implement it and see what happens. Globo 05:55, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
ENOUGH. Personal attacks stop here. Discuss article content, not editor's ethnicities. Please. -- 210 physicq ( c) 00:52, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Why was my lead always being reverted. It was not that bad:
Reasons for removing it were "I don't like it" and "it's aggressive POV". Well, as this regime came into being due to Turkish chauvinist aggression, it should be right at home here. How many times do I have to say it? Legitimizing this regime amounts to a breach of WP:NPOV#Undue weight; even all (save Turkey) of the so-called "Turkic states" don't recognize it.-- Euthymios 00:34, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
OK enough is enough. UN is consensus organisation like WP. OK? UN says TRNC is "legally invalid". Every nation agrees except Turkey! That is 100% fact and 100% NPOV. What is the problem???? Khorshid 01:08, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I disagree that we have to follow the UN on everything. It's not like they're completely unbiased on all subjects. Khoi khoi 01:12, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
TRNC is not some sort of philosophical or mathematical proposition. It exists phsyically, therefore it is notable, as A. Garnet so correctly put long ago. It is there, its political status is a different issue. As for the intro.. You know, some of the propositions that have been put forward are very un-encyclopedic and inflammatory. The political status of TRNC and its history is talked about vastly in the body of the article already. And let's not forget that it was the SAME UN that held a referendum in TRNC in 2004 SEPERATELY THAN THE ONE IN THE SOUTH as such, it overrides a 1983 resolution, since such act of holding a referendum is a statement of the recognition of TRNC as a seperate political entity. It is as simple as that. To claim as illegal a land in which the United Nations held a referendum is a live-in-the-past attitude. The invasion could have been illegal, but it has been more then 30 years since then, and what matters is if TRNC is a seperate political entity today. And the fact that UN held a seperate referendum is, at least, a recognition by the so-called party of its character as a seperate political structure and entity. UN never held a referendum in Nagorno-Karabakh or Chechnya. Baristarim 01:46, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
UN held a seperate referendum, which implies that TRNC is a political entity capable of taking care of itself and deciding its future. Its dependance on Turkey is not relevant, since many other "sovereign" states such as the Vatican, Liechtestein etc are ten times more dependent on other countries than TRNC. UN has not held a seperate referendum in Nagorno-Karabakh nor South Ossetia, which implies that UN is still not convinced of their "adequate seperateness" from the side laying claims on them. I don't want to get into a debate about neither of these territories, but just know that the UN referendum in 2004 has had huge implications in the legal world, even though it was rejected by the South. In fact, as a lawyer, I can tell you that TRNC has much more right to declare its independence today since, by rejecting the referendum, it can be easily argued that the other side is refusing the de-facto reality that has developed in the last thiry years pertaining to the development of a seperate political entity in the north, and therefore, has lost its right to claim it. Mark my words, what I just said is much more valid legally than "i refuse to recognize TRNC because it is illegal". Whether you agree with the argument about the south losing its claims on the north is not the same thing, I am just giving you a legal run-down of the current situation. Baristarim 02:07, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
The only reason that TRNC is still in this situation is because of accession negotiations of Turkey with the EU. If Turkey were already a member of the EU, TRNC would be perfectly justified to declare its outright independence from a legal point of view since the other side rejected a UN APPROVED referendum (UN is the epitome of international law, so unless God himself is going to come in and decide for us, we have to make do with it). And the south knows that its only chance of stopping that is trying to get concessions from Turkey during its accession negotiations, since, believe me when I say this, TRNC is definitely entitled, under international law, to declare its independence since the rejection of the referendum by the south under the concept of "loss of right to sovereignty" over a specific territory, the same principal that will give Kosovo its independence later this year. So please keep things in context. Since 2004, TRNC is no longer "illegal", but it has "unclear status". Baristarim 02:14, 20 November 2006 (UTC)