This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | → | Archive 10 |
FYROM,the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, is fabrik for folgery Greek history,Greek culture,Greek geography and Greek symbols Macedonians!See Greek Macedonian symbol " Vergina Sun",Philip II king of Macedon and Alexander the Great king of Macedon !!! Vergina 00:16, 5 Oct 2003 (UTC)
jiang: "Northern Cyprus" IS NOT STATE!! Vergina 07:18, 20 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Hi! There is something of a provocation in your article: the history of GREEK Macedonia is mentioned under your article for FYROM while the article for the greek Macedonia has no "history" under it. --83.112.105.88
I would also like to mention that Northern Cyprus is indeed no state.
I think that is very common nowadays for anyone to support and advertise opinions that have not previously checked. For the real Macedonian (Dorian - Δωριείς) history please read (Ploutarxos , Pindaros , Stravo (Latin) , Hrodotos , Thoukidides) . They all have documented the truth at least 3000 years ago . Yes we Greeks have been around here for that much to know.( Nlakaf 13/04/2004)
The decision to change this page into a disambiguation was made with no prior discussion. I will revert the move if there are no good reasons provided here. Just look at how many page link here... -- Jia ng 07:01, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
The name does have a lot of meanings. I don't see what harm is done by having such a menu for those who search for Macedonia. Adam 07:15, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I don't see what's wrong with having the content here at Macedonia (disambiguation) and have Macedonia be a general overview related to the country and clarifying the controversy, as is done at Macedonia (region). -- Jia ng 07:49, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I think it should be reverted, too, we've had a pretty good setup before and the vandalism was curbed to an extent, too. Don't mess with something that works... -- Shallot 13:26, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Macedonia almost never refers to the town in New York or locality in Brazil. It almost always refers to the place in Europe. the region article discussion what Macedonia means in Europe. -- Jia ng 20:22, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I've reverted the move. Please do not move pages without first gaining consensus. There are no da pages under the main title at China or Ireland. I don't see how this is any different. I've bolded subjects that are sometimes referred to as "Macedonia". -- Jia ng 21:15, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
The falsification of the name "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" is Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. Falsifier is the Macedonijiang -- Vergina 10:34, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I'm afraid anyone working on Macedonia related articles has to get used to User:Vergina and his stupid behaviour, which serves only to discredit the Greek cause, as I have tried to explain to him several times. Adam 02:20, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I reverted the changes because they deleted statements which are both true and relevant. Thessaloniki is the capital of Greek Macedonia (look at a map). The statue is huge (go there and see). The demonstrations in Athens and Thessaloniki were huge (most of the adult population of Thessaloniki took part). To say that "most" Greeks opposed the use of the name Macedonia by the Skopje government is in fact an understatement - virtually all Greeks opposed it. There is nothing nationalistic about stating these facts. To delete them is to falsify the historical record. Adam 10:00, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Good job, ChrisO!
VMORO
Quotation:"the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, with around 40%; and Bulgaria, with less than a tenth, in Blagoevgrad province."
Therefore the per cent of 40%,are wrong because contain Kosovo area as Macedonia.
Consider,that this map is reconstructed in the year 1992:[Image:Macedonia 1913 map.png] -- Vergina 06:07, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I think you are confusing the geographical area of Macedonia with the political division of the Ottoman Empire. Macedonia in Ottoman parts comprised parts of the Salonica, Bitola (Monastir) and Uskub Vilayets. Other parts of these were, however, regarded as belonging to Albania, Kosovo and even Thessaly.
For God sake Vergina the possibility to persuade Joy (his nationality; croatian (ex republic of Yugoslavia-homecountry of Yugoslavian Dictator Tito), is the same as a Turk to persuade you that you are not Greek, and that you are Turk.-- Themata 02:31, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)
why is it so hard for the invaders to admit they have invaded? Macedonia has been greek for thousands of years, and many others have invaded, and some have stayed
why do you all want to be "macedonians?" why can't you just live with the truth and be the invaders of macedonia?
it's like the Chinese calling themselves Tibetans or the Turks calling themselves Cypriots or the English calling themselves Welsh...
The bulk of the population of Macedonia has been Slavic from the 6th century until 1922 when the colonists from Asia Minor came. Hellenism in Macedonia prevailed from ca. 4 century BC until 6 century AC. Macedonia has been Slavic for much longer than it has been Hellenic (and it has never been Greek before the Balkan Wars), don't even attempt to talk to me about truth. VMORO
If we were to consider the invaders to be true natives then Israel would have no right to exist and the Chinese can claim that Thibet is Chinese and the Turks can claim that the northern part of Cyprus is Turkish - But just as in all of those cases, history and the international community is not at your disposal. This is Wikipedia. You will abide by the truth.
Philaleth, you are very brave talking about *invaders*. May be I should remind you that the Greeks themselves came from the Albanian mountains. And I'll kindly invite you to return there where you actually belong. As for your *neutrality* claims: Everyone in Wikipedia can see what kind of edits you make (jingoistic ones), you are the last one who can talk about neutrality here - either to me or to anyone else. As I can clearly see what reaction your edits cause in all other non-Greek users.
The Slavic hoardes didn't start their various excursions (from the Pripet marshes) to the north of Greece (including Macedonia and Thrace) until 600-700 AD. That is thousands of years after the Greek civilization (which enables you today to use scientific argument, or in your case demagoguery, instead of superstition and lore) flourished in Greece. The earliest signs of the Greek civilization in Greece are from 15,000 BC and more evidence is being unearthed that proves much earlier habitation of Greeks in Greece. I feel truly sorry for those who have to "hijack" Greek history in order to lend themselves some sense of identity, and I am certain that they will self-destruct eventually, like all those who tried to invade Greece did over the millenia. Yes, vmoro, I am Greek, but I defend the truth from those who would warp it, not only for the sake of the Greeks but for the sake of the TRUTH itself. This is the force that created civilization, and it is this that maintains it, against the waves of sycophants, propagandists and delusionals. PS: do not flatter yourself, you do not speak for non-Greeks, but only for some of the disenfranchised remnants of Tito's grandiose propaganda machine. I have seen your contributions and they are cleary veiled attempts at "manufacturing" a history for that group of people. As my real life permits, I will continue to remove the propaganda slant from the Macedonia article. Philaleth
Was the latter the reason why they didn't participate in the referendum, or was there some other circumstance involved that isn't mentioned? It would probably be good to join these sentences to avoid having to skip around the text a lot to get to the rationale. -- Joy [shallot] 14:58, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
The article White Tower of Thessaloniki mentions some Macedonian Slav nationalist agitation regarding that in the 1990s, but also that it wasn't in official correspondence. This could probably be mentioned in the "Controversy: Macedonia and Greece" section... -- Joy [shallot] 15:04, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
My revert changed VMORO's "conservative" to "Slavic", something that I do not endorse and I wouldn't put it anyway, unless by mistake. I feel that Adam Carr has been unfair on me in his edit summary. A look on the page history diff reveals what I intented to restore.
I'd also want to declare that my Greek origin does not predispose me into being an advocate of a certain "Greek vs Slavs" agenda. Etz Haim 00:09, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)
If I understand Etz Haim correctly as saying that it was not him who sought to change "conservative" to "Slavic" then I apologise. That's how it looked on the edit history. Adam 01:25, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Guys, I'd be glad if you didn't put your judgement against me or the Greeks in your edit summaries, because this doesn't give the opportunity to properly respond. When it comes to the "overly descriptive sentence that VMORO didn't like", I was unable to identify it as Greek nationalist, much less as "Greek" in general. If you think this sentence may be misinterpreted and stir confusion, or even anger, I respect this and do not object to its removal. However, I'd discourage you from passing such stereotypical judgement on anyone, especially inside edit summaries. Etz Haim 11:36, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I would make a remark with regard to the so called *Slavic estimates*, as the other sentence was not only non-NPOV but also extremely idiosyncratic (leaning towards moronic). Greek Helsinki watch quotes ca. 200,000-240,000 Macedonian speakers in Greece, you can see that yourselves at:
and
I don't believe in this number myself (neither am I a fan of the Macedonian ideology) but if that "conservative" (as compared to 240,000 10,000 is VERY conservative) gets again changed to "Slavic", I'll make sure that the approximations of Helsinki Watch get into the body of the article and stay there. VMORO
I don't have any more time for this garbage, go ahead and "play nice" but don't pretend that this has any semblance to the truth.
I removed the map from a 1923 source of "distribution of races in balcans" for the following reasons:
After the Holocaust of Asia Minor in 1922 the populations of Macedonia were signifacantly impacted and then again during and after WWII This map reflected none of those realities. As a result this map served only to confuse the reader into erroneous and unreasonable conclusions. It did not serve any legitimate purpose whatsoever.
(I apologize for the botched edit comment in the history - I hit something on the keyboard and the thing saved before I was able to finish writing, and I have no knowledge of how to undo that...) Philaleth 03:35, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Many of the edits in this article assume that a people's national consience and self-determination are something permanently fixed, invarible throughout history. Some nationalists (of any origin) may even argue that it's coded in the DNA. That's a nationalistic point of view and the wrong way of regarding history, especially in the Balkans. Unfortunately, this has contaminated the thoughts of many people on both sides of this argument, including those who have recently edited this article to adapt it into their prejudice. I don't subscribe any such point of view. Etz Haim 14:50, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)
we have some covert VMRO agent writing history for Greece {and proclaiming Greeks to be Albanians now!), and calling me names! LISTEN HERE YOU FREAK! I DON'T GIVE A SH... WHAT YOU WRITE HERE, IT DOESN'T CHANGE YOUR ORIGINS FROM THE SWAMPS AND MINE FROM THE CRADLE OF CIVILIZED THOUGHT. the sad factor here is that those of us who have real lives can't waste our time dealing with propagandists like you (are you getting paid for this?) so go ahead and write what you will. it's obvious that this is some freakshow project and not a serious attempt at creting a credible source. otherwise this effort would include fact-checking roles for someone and methods for producing "historical facts" that are not revising the history of civilization as of 79 years ago! (YES I AM addressing you "administrators") I leave this quagmire to its fate (much like FYROM): to self-destruct. (thankfully, I have a large number of friends from Croatia, Serbia, Albania and Russia and therefore have affirmation that there are MANY trully intelligent, enlightened and aware people in those parts of the world, and you VMRO THUG are not by any means representative of that intellect...)
Philaleth 18:22, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC) the only good thing about it all this that the VMRO agent, no matter how much they pay him and all their spin-doctors, will not be able to "create" a history for the disparate peoples of FYROM by maligning and revising Greek history. you people are trying so hard to make up a history that it shows! look at the garbage you have written! it's laughable! to take phrases or words like "our language" out of context from the mouth of Alexander, and try to make up stories about a different language! you are really a pathetic lot...
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | → | Archive 10 |
FYROM,the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, is fabrik for folgery Greek history,Greek culture,Greek geography and Greek symbols Macedonians!See Greek Macedonian symbol " Vergina Sun",Philip II king of Macedon and Alexander the Great king of Macedon !!! Vergina 00:16, 5 Oct 2003 (UTC)
jiang: "Northern Cyprus" IS NOT STATE!! Vergina 07:18, 20 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Hi! There is something of a provocation in your article: the history of GREEK Macedonia is mentioned under your article for FYROM while the article for the greek Macedonia has no "history" under it. --83.112.105.88
I would also like to mention that Northern Cyprus is indeed no state.
I think that is very common nowadays for anyone to support and advertise opinions that have not previously checked. For the real Macedonian (Dorian - Δωριείς) history please read (Ploutarxos , Pindaros , Stravo (Latin) , Hrodotos , Thoukidides) . They all have documented the truth at least 3000 years ago . Yes we Greeks have been around here for that much to know.( Nlakaf 13/04/2004)
The decision to change this page into a disambiguation was made with no prior discussion. I will revert the move if there are no good reasons provided here. Just look at how many page link here... -- Jia ng 07:01, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
The name does have a lot of meanings. I don't see what harm is done by having such a menu for those who search for Macedonia. Adam 07:15, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I don't see what's wrong with having the content here at Macedonia (disambiguation) and have Macedonia be a general overview related to the country and clarifying the controversy, as is done at Macedonia (region). -- Jia ng 07:49, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I think it should be reverted, too, we've had a pretty good setup before and the vandalism was curbed to an extent, too. Don't mess with something that works... -- Shallot 13:26, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Macedonia almost never refers to the town in New York or locality in Brazil. It almost always refers to the place in Europe. the region article discussion what Macedonia means in Europe. -- Jia ng 20:22, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I've reverted the move. Please do not move pages without first gaining consensus. There are no da pages under the main title at China or Ireland. I don't see how this is any different. I've bolded subjects that are sometimes referred to as "Macedonia". -- Jia ng 21:15, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
The falsification of the name "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" is Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. Falsifier is the Macedonijiang -- Vergina 10:34, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I'm afraid anyone working on Macedonia related articles has to get used to User:Vergina and his stupid behaviour, which serves only to discredit the Greek cause, as I have tried to explain to him several times. Adam 02:20, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I reverted the changes because they deleted statements which are both true and relevant. Thessaloniki is the capital of Greek Macedonia (look at a map). The statue is huge (go there and see). The demonstrations in Athens and Thessaloniki were huge (most of the adult population of Thessaloniki took part). To say that "most" Greeks opposed the use of the name Macedonia by the Skopje government is in fact an understatement - virtually all Greeks opposed it. There is nothing nationalistic about stating these facts. To delete them is to falsify the historical record. Adam 10:00, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Good job, ChrisO!
VMORO
Quotation:"the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, with around 40%; and Bulgaria, with less than a tenth, in Blagoevgrad province."
Therefore the per cent of 40%,are wrong because contain Kosovo area as Macedonia.
Consider,that this map is reconstructed in the year 1992:[Image:Macedonia 1913 map.png] -- Vergina 06:07, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I think you are confusing the geographical area of Macedonia with the political division of the Ottoman Empire. Macedonia in Ottoman parts comprised parts of the Salonica, Bitola (Monastir) and Uskub Vilayets. Other parts of these were, however, regarded as belonging to Albania, Kosovo and even Thessaly.
For God sake Vergina the possibility to persuade Joy (his nationality; croatian (ex republic of Yugoslavia-homecountry of Yugoslavian Dictator Tito), is the same as a Turk to persuade you that you are not Greek, and that you are Turk.-- Themata 02:31, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)
why is it so hard for the invaders to admit they have invaded? Macedonia has been greek for thousands of years, and many others have invaded, and some have stayed
why do you all want to be "macedonians?" why can't you just live with the truth and be the invaders of macedonia?
it's like the Chinese calling themselves Tibetans or the Turks calling themselves Cypriots or the English calling themselves Welsh...
The bulk of the population of Macedonia has been Slavic from the 6th century until 1922 when the colonists from Asia Minor came. Hellenism in Macedonia prevailed from ca. 4 century BC until 6 century AC. Macedonia has been Slavic for much longer than it has been Hellenic (and it has never been Greek before the Balkan Wars), don't even attempt to talk to me about truth. VMORO
If we were to consider the invaders to be true natives then Israel would have no right to exist and the Chinese can claim that Thibet is Chinese and the Turks can claim that the northern part of Cyprus is Turkish - But just as in all of those cases, history and the international community is not at your disposal. This is Wikipedia. You will abide by the truth.
Philaleth, you are very brave talking about *invaders*. May be I should remind you that the Greeks themselves came from the Albanian mountains. And I'll kindly invite you to return there where you actually belong. As for your *neutrality* claims: Everyone in Wikipedia can see what kind of edits you make (jingoistic ones), you are the last one who can talk about neutrality here - either to me or to anyone else. As I can clearly see what reaction your edits cause in all other non-Greek users.
The Slavic hoardes didn't start their various excursions (from the Pripet marshes) to the north of Greece (including Macedonia and Thrace) until 600-700 AD. That is thousands of years after the Greek civilization (which enables you today to use scientific argument, or in your case demagoguery, instead of superstition and lore) flourished in Greece. The earliest signs of the Greek civilization in Greece are from 15,000 BC and more evidence is being unearthed that proves much earlier habitation of Greeks in Greece. I feel truly sorry for those who have to "hijack" Greek history in order to lend themselves some sense of identity, and I am certain that they will self-destruct eventually, like all those who tried to invade Greece did over the millenia. Yes, vmoro, I am Greek, but I defend the truth from those who would warp it, not only for the sake of the Greeks but for the sake of the TRUTH itself. This is the force that created civilization, and it is this that maintains it, against the waves of sycophants, propagandists and delusionals. PS: do not flatter yourself, you do not speak for non-Greeks, but only for some of the disenfranchised remnants of Tito's grandiose propaganda machine. I have seen your contributions and they are cleary veiled attempts at "manufacturing" a history for that group of people. As my real life permits, I will continue to remove the propaganda slant from the Macedonia article. Philaleth
Was the latter the reason why they didn't participate in the referendum, or was there some other circumstance involved that isn't mentioned? It would probably be good to join these sentences to avoid having to skip around the text a lot to get to the rationale. -- Joy [shallot] 14:58, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
The article White Tower of Thessaloniki mentions some Macedonian Slav nationalist agitation regarding that in the 1990s, but also that it wasn't in official correspondence. This could probably be mentioned in the "Controversy: Macedonia and Greece" section... -- Joy [shallot] 15:04, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
My revert changed VMORO's "conservative" to "Slavic", something that I do not endorse and I wouldn't put it anyway, unless by mistake. I feel that Adam Carr has been unfair on me in his edit summary. A look on the page history diff reveals what I intented to restore.
I'd also want to declare that my Greek origin does not predispose me into being an advocate of a certain "Greek vs Slavs" agenda. Etz Haim 00:09, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)
If I understand Etz Haim correctly as saying that it was not him who sought to change "conservative" to "Slavic" then I apologise. That's how it looked on the edit history. Adam 01:25, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Guys, I'd be glad if you didn't put your judgement against me or the Greeks in your edit summaries, because this doesn't give the opportunity to properly respond. When it comes to the "overly descriptive sentence that VMORO didn't like", I was unable to identify it as Greek nationalist, much less as "Greek" in general. If you think this sentence may be misinterpreted and stir confusion, or even anger, I respect this and do not object to its removal. However, I'd discourage you from passing such stereotypical judgement on anyone, especially inside edit summaries. Etz Haim 11:36, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I would make a remark with regard to the so called *Slavic estimates*, as the other sentence was not only non-NPOV but also extremely idiosyncratic (leaning towards moronic). Greek Helsinki watch quotes ca. 200,000-240,000 Macedonian speakers in Greece, you can see that yourselves at:
and
I don't believe in this number myself (neither am I a fan of the Macedonian ideology) but if that "conservative" (as compared to 240,000 10,000 is VERY conservative) gets again changed to "Slavic", I'll make sure that the approximations of Helsinki Watch get into the body of the article and stay there. VMORO
I don't have any more time for this garbage, go ahead and "play nice" but don't pretend that this has any semblance to the truth.
I removed the map from a 1923 source of "distribution of races in balcans" for the following reasons:
After the Holocaust of Asia Minor in 1922 the populations of Macedonia were signifacantly impacted and then again during and after WWII This map reflected none of those realities. As a result this map served only to confuse the reader into erroneous and unreasonable conclusions. It did not serve any legitimate purpose whatsoever.
(I apologize for the botched edit comment in the history - I hit something on the keyboard and the thing saved before I was able to finish writing, and I have no knowledge of how to undo that...) Philaleth 03:35, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Many of the edits in this article assume that a people's national consience and self-determination are something permanently fixed, invarible throughout history. Some nationalists (of any origin) may even argue that it's coded in the DNA. That's a nationalistic point of view and the wrong way of regarding history, especially in the Balkans. Unfortunately, this has contaminated the thoughts of many people on both sides of this argument, including those who have recently edited this article to adapt it into their prejudice. I don't subscribe any such point of view. Etz Haim 14:50, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)
we have some covert VMRO agent writing history for Greece {and proclaiming Greeks to be Albanians now!), and calling me names! LISTEN HERE YOU FREAK! I DON'T GIVE A SH... WHAT YOU WRITE HERE, IT DOESN'T CHANGE YOUR ORIGINS FROM THE SWAMPS AND MINE FROM THE CRADLE OF CIVILIZED THOUGHT. the sad factor here is that those of us who have real lives can't waste our time dealing with propagandists like you (are you getting paid for this?) so go ahead and write what you will. it's obvious that this is some freakshow project and not a serious attempt at creting a credible source. otherwise this effort would include fact-checking roles for someone and methods for producing "historical facts" that are not revising the history of civilization as of 79 years ago! (YES I AM addressing you "administrators") I leave this quagmire to its fate (much like FYROM): to self-destruct. (thankfully, I have a large number of friends from Croatia, Serbia, Albania and Russia and therefore have affirmation that there are MANY trully intelligent, enlightened and aware people in those parts of the world, and you VMRO THUG are not by any means representative of that intellect...)
Philaleth 18:22, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC) the only good thing about it all this that the VMRO agent, no matter how much they pay him and all their spin-doctors, will not be able to "create" a history for the disparate peoples of FYROM by maligning and revising Greek history. you people are trying so hard to make up a history that it shows! look at the garbage you have written! it's laughable! to take phrases or words like "our language" out of context from the mouth of Alexander, and try to make up stories about a different language! you are really a pathetic lot...