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I have read the discussion that you have led and I want to say some things.
1. We already all know that the new name of the country will be North Macedonia, there is no need of the word Republic before North Macedonia because there is no other use of the name North Macedonia.
2. The new demonym will be North Macedonian/s, the demonym of every country is coming from its name, so, if the name of the country is North Macedonia, the demonym will be North Macedonian/s. But to clarify that the demonym is not an ethnic, but just an political term, so there will not be ethnic North Macedonian/s, but by North Macedonian will be clarifed that that person is from the country North Macedonia or he/she is something of that country. For example, Goran Pandev is a North Macedonian professional footballer, or Zoran Zaev is a North Macedonian Primer Minister. If we wanna say that Goran Pandev is an ethnic Macedonian professional footballer, then we will write: Goran Pandev is a Macedonian professional footballer. I think these things are clear, but in any case, I wanted to make them 100% clear.
3. The ethnic group with the name Macedonians will stay the same, so, there will be no changes in the places where we talk about the ethnic group Macedonians.
4. The language with name Macedonian will stay the same, so, as for the ethnic group, there will be no changes and in the places where we talk about the language Macedonian.
Resnjari, there is no need of new article with the name North Macedonian Macedonians, we already have an article about the Macedonians. This case is the same as the case with the Bosniaks, and for the Bosniaks we have one article and that's enough, we don't have and we don't need an article with the name Bosnian Bosniaks.
Maybe we need an article with the name North Macedonians who will contain informations about all citizens of North Macedonia, the same as the articles: Bosnians, Swiss people, Belgians, Americans, Argentines etc. I want to ask you what do you think about it?
I want to ask and about the languages infobox, we need a third graph for the official regional languages, Resnjari already placed a request on the infobox talkpage, but I still don't see an answer, can anyone resolve this? Sashko1999 ( talk) 16:09, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
Local hero, do not confuse the nationality with the demonym, the nationality doesn't have to be the same as the demonym, for example, in North Korean passport writes NATIONALITY: KOREAN, but how we write here about their football players?, we write that they are North Korean, because that's the demonym for North Korea. Here is one example. /info/en/?search=Ri_Myong-guk Ri Myong-guk (born 9 September 1986 in Pyongyang, North Korea) is a North Korean international footballer.
The term Macedonian will be used just if we need to say that the player is an ethnic Macedonian, we can't use this term if we want to say that the player is from the country North Macedonia, because the demonym for North Macedonia is North Macedonian/s, and not Macedonian/s. Sashko1999 ( talk) 18:44, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
Philly boy92, completely agree with your views because they are 100% correct. Sashko1999 ( talk) 18:44, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
Umm yes, clearly you weren't reading... nationality is explicitly "Macedonian/citizen of the Republic of North Macedonia". I was. And nationality isn't exactly same same as citizenship. For example: the Albanian nation spreads across 3 countries and encompass populations both of Albanian, Macedonian and Kosovar citizenship. My impression is we can't make a clear sense without clarifying where nationality/ethnicity/citizenship do differ from each other, precisely and not based on our opinions. I will need hear some opinions on this, but also I will appreciate if can we find a legal definition in the constitution. -- 👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 ( talk ✉️ | contribs 📝) 20:51, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
The adjectival reference to the State, its official organs, and other public entities shall be in line with the official name of the Second Party or its short name, that is, “of the Republic of North Macedonia” or “of North Macedonia”. Other adjectival usages, including those referring to private entities and actors, that are not related to the State and public entities, are not established by law and do not enjoy financial support from the State for activities abroad, may be in line with Article 7(3) and (4).I would argue that the demonym does relate to the state. It denotes the state that a person is from. It is not related to ethnicity or nationality. Others have demonstrated this argument clearly with the example of North Korea. -- Michail ( blah) 21:04, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
then "Macedonian" would be more correct than "North Macedonian"- no, because
Upon entry into force of this Agreement, and subject to provisions under Articles 1(9) and (10), the terms “Macedonia”, “Republic of Macedonia”, “FYR of Macedonia”, “FYR Macedonia” in a translated or untranslated form, as well as the provisional name “the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia” and the acronym “fYROM” shall cease to be used to refer to the Second Party in any official context. I think 7.1 is referring to how Macedonians refer to themselves in Macedonian, not that Macedonia can be used interchangeably to refer to North Macedonia. If we take it to mean the way you mean it, who decides on whether "Macedonian" means ethnic Macedonian or Macedonian (Greek)? After all the agreement says it's both. At any rate, I think I have made my position understood, it is my opinion that it should be done the way we treat North Korea, i.e. demonym as opposed to nationality. You also mentioned a key word, context. Macedonian gives no context. North Macedonian does. -- Michail ( blah) 22:31, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
Sorry guys, just a short comment because I see that there is a lot of confusion for no reason. The Prespa agreement has nothing to do with determining the demonym for the citizens of North Macedonia. It determines the nationality/citizenship which will remain "Macedonian" as it already has been. It also doesn't touch the subject of ethnicity which is basically left to self-determination and will also remain "Macedonian", or as I prefer to call "Macedonian (etnhic)". The demonym does not always follow the name of the country or the official term used to define the nationality/citizenship and I can give a thousand examples. I believe that the demonym(s) that will be used on wikipedia articles should be decided after discussion on updating the MOSMAC and after reaching the necessary consensus. Argean ( talk) 21:16, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
the use of the term between the two countries and peoples, and does not involve third parties in any way. Your interpretation seems to me as POV pushing. I have objected the "North/South Korean" paradigm and explained my arguments very clearly before. The case of "North Macedonia" is obviously a very complicated one. Actually the only true comparisons that I can think of, apart from the "Bosnian/Bosniak" case that I already explained, are the Northern Cyprus/ Turkish Cypriots discrepancy and the complex issue of Northern Irish identity. So obviously we need to reach a consensus before deciding the terminology, because none of us holds a crystal ball. Argean ( talk) 19:06, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
the geographic terms North and South are not official in the country titles as it is with North Macedonia). You also seem to have decided that you know better how to define a demonym, so I think that we should forget all the linguistic relations among the various terms "ethnonym", "endonym", "exonym", "toponym" "topo-ethnonym" (as briefly described here) and stick to a vague definition of "demonym" that it may refer to the official state name or not, depending on what is convenient. I've described very carefully my personal view on why I believe the generalized use of the term "North Macedonians" creates more problems than it actually solves, so I'm not going to repeat myself. I have no idea what will be the consensus result of the discussion on an updated guideline, but at least I'm not trying to preoccupy what is logical and expected to happen. PS. And no it's not odd to keep the current terminology for people. I'm a Greek Macedonian and I don't object if someone wants to be called ethnic Macedonian, especially now that the agreement explicitly states that modern ethnic Macedonians have nothing to do with Greece and its' culture. Argean ( talk) 00:14, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
According to Wikipedia "Demonyms do not always clearly distinguish place of origin or ethnicity from place of residence or citizenship, and many demonyms overlap with the ethnonym for the ethnically dominant group of a region.". I'm reposting it for the sake of objectivity that you like to plead for. Argean ( talk) 00:32, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
The adjectival reference to the State, its official organs, and other public entities shall be in line with the official name of the Second Party or its short name, that is, "of the Republic of North Macedonia", or "of North Macedonia". Keeping in line with that should be sensible, no matter what terms are used by the media. That includes e.g. renaming the page of Prime Minister of Macedonia to "Prime Minister of North Macedonia", and stop using the adjectival term "Macedonian", since the Prime Minister is an official organ and not just a person. Anyway, this is a discussion that in my humble opinion should be taking place at WP:MOSMAC and not here, because the "demonym" is just the tip of the iceberg. -- Argean ( talk) 00:13, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
A discussion to draft an RFC for a newly reviewed/updated WP:MOSMAC has been initiated here. All editors that have suggestions on how the naming conventions could or should be renewed, based on the recent developments related to the ratification and the approaching implementation of Prespa agreement are more than welcome to contribute. -- Argean ( talk) 13:37, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
The map of Köppen climate classification in the article is quite nonsensial - tundra climate in all the eastern macedonia etc.. Please delete it from article. Grtek ( talk) 12:21, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
It is over. The North Macedonian Foreign Minister has publicly announced it. North Macedonia got the last papers from Greece and the change is official. Here is his twitter message https://twitter.com/Dimitrov_Nikola/status/1095381648844169217?s=19
Why isn't the title of the page 'Republic of North Macedonia'? Ronbb345 ( talk) 20:30, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
So the articled moved to Republic of Macedonia, which is neither the common nor the official name anymore. Xylo kai Gyali ( talk) 20:30, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
I would assume that this is either a mistake or there hasn't a final decision in regards to the changing of the term on the page yet? Ronbb345 ( talk) 20:33, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
hasn't been*
Excuse me. Ronbb345 ( talk) 20:33, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
This is the original page for the discussion about changing the original page. Newcomers will get confused as this will be the first time they read about this. For those who are not involved with the issue, they will only know/look for one country, North Macedonia. Time to change, no need to wait for the State Department to log in and do the changes, wiki... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 120.18.147.18 ( talk) 20:40, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
(
edit conflict)
Comment: Whether the article is moved or not, will depend on the outcome of voting in the
February 8's Move Request which has to be completed first. --
✿ SilentResident ✿ (
talk ✉ |
contribs ✎)
20:42, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
Thanks for the clarification regarding what I said. Ronbb345 ( talk) 21:04, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
Announcement of the Government of the Republic of North Macedonia for entry into force of the Final Agreement, Constitutional Amendments and Constitutional Law for Implementation of Amendments
Furthermore, we also inform that the conditions for entry into force of amendments XXXIII, XXXIV, XXXV and XXXVI of the Constitution of the Republic of North Macedonia and the Constitutional Law for implementation of the Amendments XXXIII to XXXVI of the Constitution of the Republic of North Macedonia which the Assembly of the Republic of North Macedonia adopted on January 11th 2019 are met. These shall enter into force today, on February 12th 2019 together with the duly publication made by the Government in the Official Gazette.
Therewith begins the fulfillment of the obligations arising from the Final Agreement and constitutional amendments. The initial decisions in relation to the necessary measures and activities for fulfillment of the above-mentioned obligations shall be presented in a Communique published by the Inter-Ministerial Working Group for fulfillment of the obligations stipulated in the Final Agreement. Maleizmene ( talk) 21:09, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
Official government website has been renamed to "Government of North Macedonia": https://vlada.mk/node/16763?ln=en-gb — Preceding unsigned comment added by Europarliament ( talk • contribs) 22:35, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
Regardless of the outcome of the ongoing page name move discussion, as the name listed in the infobox is supposed the the entity's official name, I request, now that the name change to "North Macedonia" is official, that the name in the infobox be edited to read "Republic of North Macedonia", the new long-form official name. Pizzaguy875 ( talk) 03:07, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I have read the discussion that you have led and I want to say some things.
1. We already all know that the new name of the country will be North Macedonia, there is no need of the word Republic before North Macedonia because there is no other use of the name North Macedonia.
2. The new demonym will be North Macedonian/s, the demonym of every country is coming from its name, so, if the name of the country is North Macedonia, the demonym will be North Macedonian/s. But to clarify that the demonym is not an ethnic, but just an political term, so there will not be ethnic North Macedonian/s, but by North Macedonian will be clarifed that that person is from the country North Macedonia or he/she is something of that country. For example, Goran Pandev is a North Macedonian professional footballer, or Zoran Zaev is a North Macedonian Primer Minister. If we wanna say that Goran Pandev is an ethnic Macedonian professional footballer, then we will write: Goran Pandev is a Macedonian professional footballer. I think these things are clear, but in any case, I wanted to make them 100% clear.
3. The ethnic group with the name Macedonians will stay the same, so, there will be no changes in the places where we talk about the ethnic group Macedonians.
4. The language with name Macedonian will stay the same, so, as for the ethnic group, there will be no changes and in the places where we talk about the language Macedonian.
Resnjari, there is no need of new article with the name North Macedonian Macedonians, we already have an article about the Macedonians. This case is the same as the case with the Bosniaks, and for the Bosniaks we have one article and that's enough, we don't have and we don't need an article with the name Bosnian Bosniaks.
Maybe we need an article with the name North Macedonians who will contain informations about all citizens of North Macedonia, the same as the articles: Bosnians, Swiss people, Belgians, Americans, Argentines etc. I want to ask you what do you think about it?
I want to ask and about the languages infobox, we need a third graph for the official regional languages, Resnjari already placed a request on the infobox talkpage, but I still don't see an answer, can anyone resolve this? Sashko1999 ( talk) 16:09, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
Local hero, do not confuse the nationality with the demonym, the nationality doesn't have to be the same as the demonym, for example, in North Korean passport writes NATIONALITY: KOREAN, but how we write here about their football players?, we write that they are North Korean, because that's the demonym for North Korea. Here is one example. /info/en/?search=Ri_Myong-guk Ri Myong-guk (born 9 September 1986 in Pyongyang, North Korea) is a North Korean international footballer.
The term Macedonian will be used just if we need to say that the player is an ethnic Macedonian, we can't use this term if we want to say that the player is from the country North Macedonia, because the demonym for North Macedonia is North Macedonian/s, and not Macedonian/s. Sashko1999 ( talk) 18:44, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
Philly boy92, completely agree with your views because they are 100% correct. Sashko1999 ( talk) 18:44, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
Umm yes, clearly you weren't reading... nationality is explicitly "Macedonian/citizen of the Republic of North Macedonia". I was. And nationality isn't exactly same same as citizenship. For example: the Albanian nation spreads across 3 countries and encompass populations both of Albanian, Macedonian and Kosovar citizenship. My impression is we can't make a clear sense without clarifying where nationality/ethnicity/citizenship do differ from each other, precisely and not based on our opinions. I will need hear some opinions on this, but also I will appreciate if can we find a legal definition in the constitution. -- 👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 ( talk ✉️ | contribs 📝) 20:51, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
The adjectival reference to the State, its official organs, and other public entities shall be in line with the official name of the Second Party or its short name, that is, “of the Republic of North Macedonia” or “of North Macedonia”. Other adjectival usages, including those referring to private entities and actors, that are not related to the State and public entities, are not established by law and do not enjoy financial support from the State for activities abroad, may be in line with Article 7(3) and (4).I would argue that the demonym does relate to the state. It denotes the state that a person is from. It is not related to ethnicity or nationality. Others have demonstrated this argument clearly with the example of North Korea. -- Michail ( blah) 21:04, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
then "Macedonian" would be more correct than "North Macedonian"- no, because
Upon entry into force of this Agreement, and subject to provisions under Articles 1(9) and (10), the terms “Macedonia”, “Republic of Macedonia”, “FYR of Macedonia”, “FYR Macedonia” in a translated or untranslated form, as well as the provisional name “the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia” and the acronym “fYROM” shall cease to be used to refer to the Second Party in any official context. I think 7.1 is referring to how Macedonians refer to themselves in Macedonian, not that Macedonia can be used interchangeably to refer to North Macedonia. If we take it to mean the way you mean it, who decides on whether "Macedonian" means ethnic Macedonian or Macedonian (Greek)? After all the agreement says it's both. At any rate, I think I have made my position understood, it is my opinion that it should be done the way we treat North Korea, i.e. demonym as opposed to nationality. You also mentioned a key word, context. Macedonian gives no context. North Macedonian does. -- Michail ( blah) 22:31, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
Sorry guys, just a short comment because I see that there is a lot of confusion for no reason. The Prespa agreement has nothing to do with determining the demonym for the citizens of North Macedonia. It determines the nationality/citizenship which will remain "Macedonian" as it already has been. It also doesn't touch the subject of ethnicity which is basically left to self-determination and will also remain "Macedonian", or as I prefer to call "Macedonian (etnhic)". The demonym does not always follow the name of the country or the official term used to define the nationality/citizenship and I can give a thousand examples. I believe that the demonym(s) that will be used on wikipedia articles should be decided after discussion on updating the MOSMAC and after reaching the necessary consensus. Argean ( talk) 21:16, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
the use of the term between the two countries and peoples, and does not involve third parties in any way. Your interpretation seems to me as POV pushing. I have objected the "North/South Korean" paradigm and explained my arguments very clearly before. The case of "North Macedonia" is obviously a very complicated one. Actually the only true comparisons that I can think of, apart from the "Bosnian/Bosniak" case that I already explained, are the Northern Cyprus/ Turkish Cypriots discrepancy and the complex issue of Northern Irish identity. So obviously we need to reach a consensus before deciding the terminology, because none of us holds a crystal ball. Argean ( talk) 19:06, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
the geographic terms North and South are not official in the country titles as it is with North Macedonia). You also seem to have decided that you know better how to define a demonym, so I think that we should forget all the linguistic relations among the various terms "ethnonym", "endonym", "exonym", "toponym" "topo-ethnonym" (as briefly described here) and stick to a vague definition of "demonym" that it may refer to the official state name or not, depending on what is convenient. I've described very carefully my personal view on why I believe the generalized use of the term "North Macedonians" creates more problems than it actually solves, so I'm not going to repeat myself. I have no idea what will be the consensus result of the discussion on an updated guideline, but at least I'm not trying to preoccupy what is logical and expected to happen. PS. And no it's not odd to keep the current terminology for people. I'm a Greek Macedonian and I don't object if someone wants to be called ethnic Macedonian, especially now that the agreement explicitly states that modern ethnic Macedonians have nothing to do with Greece and its' culture. Argean ( talk) 00:14, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
According to Wikipedia "Demonyms do not always clearly distinguish place of origin or ethnicity from place of residence or citizenship, and many demonyms overlap with the ethnonym for the ethnically dominant group of a region.". I'm reposting it for the sake of objectivity that you like to plead for. Argean ( talk) 00:32, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
The adjectival reference to the State, its official organs, and other public entities shall be in line with the official name of the Second Party or its short name, that is, "of the Republic of North Macedonia", or "of North Macedonia". Keeping in line with that should be sensible, no matter what terms are used by the media. That includes e.g. renaming the page of Prime Minister of Macedonia to "Prime Minister of North Macedonia", and stop using the adjectival term "Macedonian", since the Prime Minister is an official organ and not just a person. Anyway, this is a discussion that in my humble opinion should be taking place at WP:MOSMAC and not here, because the "demonym" is just the tip of the iceberg. -- Argean ( talk) 00:13, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
A discussion to draft an RFC for a newly reviewed/updated WP:MOSMAC has been initiated here. All editors that have suggestions on how the naming conventions could or should be renewed, based on the recent developments related to the ratification and the approaching implementation of Prespa agreement are more than welcome to contribute. -- Argean ( talk) 13:37, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
The map of Köppen climate classification in the article is quite nonsensial - tundra climate in all the eastern macedonia etc.. Please delete it from article. Grtek ( talk) 12:21, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
It is over. The North Macedonian Foreign Minister has publicly announced it. North Macedonia got the last papers from Greece and the change is official. Here is his twitter message https://twitter.com/Dimitrov_Nikola/status/1095381648844169217?s=19
Why isn't the title of the page 'Republic of North Macedonia'? Ronbb345 ( talk) 20:30, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
So the articled moved to Republic of Macedonia, which is neither the common nor the official name anymore. Xylo kai Gyali ( talk) 20:30, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
I would assume that this is either a mistake or there hasn't a final decision in regards to the changing of the term on the page yet? Ronbb345 ( talk) 20:33, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
hasn't been*
Excuse me. Ronbb345 ( talk) 20:33, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
This is the original page for the discussion about changing the original page. Newcomers will get confused as this will be the first time they read about this. For those who are not involved with the issue, they will only know/look for one country, North Macedonia. Time to change, no need to wait for the State Department to log in and do the changes, wiki... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 120.18.147.18 ( talk) 20:40, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
(
edit conflict)
Comment: Whether the article is moved or not, will depend on the outcome of voting in the
February 8's Move Request which has to be completed first. --
✿ SilentResident ✿ (
talk ✉ |
contribs ✎)
20:42, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
Thanks for the clarification regarding what I said. Ronbb345 ( talk) 21:04, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
Announcement of the Government of the Republic of North Macedonia for entry into force of the Final Agreement, Constitutional Amendments and Constitutional Law for Implementation of Amendments
Furthermore, we also inform that the conditions for entry into force of amendments XXXIII, XXXIV, XXXV and XXXVI of the Constitution of the Republic of North Macedonia and the Constitutional Law for implementation of the Amendments XXXIII to XXXVI of the Constitution of the Republic of North Macedonia which the Assembly of the Republic of North Macedonia adopted on January 11th 2019 are met. These shall enter into force today, on February 12th 2019 together with the duly publication made by the Government in the Official Gazette.
Therewith begins the fulfillment of the obligations arising from the Final Agreement and constitutional amendments. The initial decisions in relation to the necessary measures and activities for fulfillment of the above-mentioned obligations shall be presented in a Communique published by the Inter-Ministerial Working Group for fulfillment of the obligations stipulated in the Final Agreement. Maleizmene ( talk) 21:09, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
Official government website has been renamed to "Government of North Macedonia": https://vlada.mk/node/16763?ln=en-gb — Preceding unsigned comment added by Europarliament ( talk • contribs) 22:35, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
Regardless of the outcome of the ongoing page name move discussion, as the name listed in the infobox is supposed the the entity's official name, I request, now that the name change to "North Macedonia" is official, that the name in the infobox be edited to read "Republic of North Macedonia", the new long-form official name. Pizzaguy875 ( talk) 03:07, 13 February 2019 (UTC)