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Archive 5 | ← | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | → | Archive 15 |
Excuse me would really appreciate any info on the Egyptians in Macedonia, when did they get there? How many are there? What religion do they follow Coptic orthodox Christianity, Sunni Islam? How did they get there or why? Is it a common occurence in the region, in neighbouring countries? Plz any info would be greatly appreciated.
Let them name the page Republic of macedonia, it is quite obvious their research of Greeks and Japanese being African is flawless and Alexander the Great spoke a language nothing like Greek despite 3-5bc finds in macedon with greek inscriptions, but one that would be invented 9 centuries after his death. Having said this I would also like to nominate Joey from Friends as the next US president, perhaps he will let the slavs rename Skopje Solun? Some more nice humour for you: http://macedoniancivilization.blog.com.mk/node/1301 Reaper7 18:38, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Where is the new DNA research from FYROM, proving that Greeks actualy have alien origins and they must go from earth??? :P I believe that sometimes we have to be serious and stop the stupidities! -- xvvx 17:45, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
People are forgeting the Bulgarian identity and heritage of the Republic of Macedonia. It is impossible to study Bulgarian history and culture and leave out its lost western heartland that reaches Ohrid. The history of the Republic of Macedonia starts with Bulgaria; to deny this truth would be like saying that Yorkshire is not English, or Peloponnese not Greek, or Elbasan not Albanian. Goce Delcev and many more are Bulgarian heros for peace and democracy for all. They never spoke of our brothers in Vardar Bulgaria as 'ethnic Macedonians', no one spoke of that until Tito. We were all Bulgarians, even if we were born in Skopje, Sandanski, America or Western Europe. Makedonija 11:22, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Now that is a heck of analogy. Do you really think this is adequate? Bomac 11:52, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Well said Telex, the FYROMians search so hard to find evidence that the Bulgarian Macedonians are unique, your examples are well thought out, especially the kosovo one. Now we need to teach them how the Spartans, Thebans, Macedonians, Athenians ect were just that - Spartans, Thebans, Macedonians, Athenians - bound only by hellenism. Then we need to show the archeaology that shows they all wrote and spoke a language similar to the various Greeks spoken by all the different city states, then we need to write an essay on small cultures with inferiority complexes, then hopefully a few of them will start to go,' that stuff they taught me at school in Skopje that us slavs are the real Macedonians - that is true.,.,.,.isn't it??' Reaper7 15:29, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
I don't think God saved the ethnic Macedonians, they just built a strong city known in ancient times (see carvings) and modern as Thessaloniki. When the slavs invaded they were safe in there. I think the macedonians have the walls to thank for that. But according to modern FYROM mythology, who were those Greeks in Salonika? Aliens put them in there? Is it possible they are the remnents of the Ancient Macedonians? According to FYROM they must have just been shipped there by ET, where as the real Macedonians stayed outside the walls of Salonika because it was safe in the fields, waited for the slavs 5-9AD, mixed with them exclusively - every last one - lost their language, and now are Alexander the Great's little slav children living in Skopje..mmmm Reaper7 17:28, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
"Sofia, 01.05.1899, Kolyo, ... May the dissents and cleavages not frighten you. It is really a pity, but what can we possibly do when we ourselves are Bulgarians and all suffer from the same disease! If this disease had not existed in our forefathers who passed it on to us, we wouldn't have fallen under the ugly sceptre of the Turkish sultans..."
-Dame Gruev (Director of the Bulgarian school in Stip).
http://img67.exs.cx/img67/8450/MapbyAmiBoue1847.jpg http://img56.exs.cx/img56/5857/VolkerkartevonMittel-undSudosteuropa.jpg http://img56.exs.cx/img56/3069/slaveni-karta.jpg http://img57.exs.cx/img57/1241/ResizeofEuropavolkerundsprachenkarte.jpg http://img57.exs.cx/img57/8127/1880-geoturkeyethnographical.jpg http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd/races_balkan_shepherd_1923.jpg http://www.cjcr.cam.ac.uk/gateway/maps/Ethnic16.gif http://mitglied.lycos.de/anakin77/Sprachkarten/eth2.jpg http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/7540/makedonienlandschaftsundkultur.jpg
http://www.univ.trieste.it/~storia/corsi/Dogo/tabelle/popolaz-ottomana1911.jpg
http://img24.exs.cx/img24/7216/Invitation1893.jpg
http://img24.exs.cx/img24/6279/Svobodailismyrtpechat.jpg
http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/4454/skopie18701nx.jpg
http://img47.exs.cx/img47/9107/balgarska_Obshtina_v_prilep.jpg
THEOPHYLACTUS, arcivescovo di Ochrida http://www.comune.empoli.fi.it/biblioteca/CATALOGO/schede/sch785.html http://www.comune.empoli.fi.it/biblioteca/CATALOGO/schede/front785.html
The article's title should be "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" in accordance to the name recognized by the United Nations, as happens to all nation entries. Also the links at the bottom of the entry are biased towards supporting the FYROM opinion on the disputes with Greece, lacking any credible reference to the Greek arguments. Dr. Manos 22:15, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
You "Macedonian" guys are behaving like confused western Bugarians and you ignore the history of your ancestors. Instead you try to turn all your neighbours against you with your maps and invented history. The regional map in the main article reflects clear distortion of reality against Bulgaria (and the other 3 neighbours). OK then, how about this: as other people have pointed out, the Republic is and has always been Vardar Bulgaria. The way you are going, one day you will be responsible for the religious heartland of Bulgarians (Ohrid) to be inhabited by Albanians and anyone callling themselves Macedonian will be coming to Bulgari... [user:Makedonija]]
Ohrid is the religious centre of the Bulgarian church, in a way, that is where Bulgaria discovered it had absorbed the lessons of Byzantium and realized it was a civilising power. user:Makedonija
There is a very big difference. Bulgaria lost Ohrid to the 'lost Bulgarians'; Greeks did not loose Istanbul until the 1950s with the pogroms. When the Ottoman Turks conquered Constantinople the Greeks became the masters of the Christians. When Serbia / Yugoslavia took Ohrid, the Bulgarians lost even the right to worship there. user:Makedonija
Unfortunately your fellow Bulgarians who came down with you in the 5-9AD now think they are the only true relatives of Alexander the Great. As soon as you say the word Bulgarian 50 years of propaganda forces them to explode. Reaper7 18:20, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
...and Greeks aren't "masters of the Christians". See Pope vs Patriarch of Constantinople and Halki seminary etc... NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 19:45, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
"Masters" of the Christians?! Oh boy... Not even the most ultra nationalist Greeks would have conceived this one! We are completely unable to even sort out our own Greek Orthodox Church problems! If you haven't seen Christodoulos vs Vartholomeos or heard of what Irineos and Babylis have done you haven't seen how low church debates can go:-) -- Avg 20:43, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
Its ok, i'm sure a in a couple more years the FYROMians will claim to have started our church too, so all this mess in our church is down to them at the end of the day. Some of the benfits of having your history altered, they can take the corruption aswell as the glory.. Reaper7 21:15, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
I am not accusing you of renouncing your ethnic id Fran. You missed the point, but maybe it is because I started on the wrong foot. I am just saying that if someone would be under-valueing other people's ethnic id's, that would be more nationalistic than being a nationalist himself. I think you agree to that. And maybe I was a little harsh in calling you an "unaware victim", but you had given on my nerves (or maybe my nerves themselves are the issue). Maybe your page about nationalists is not intended in promoting under-valueing of other people's ethnic id's, but you must admit that there is no clear boundary for that. For one thing it is not clear what someone may consider as under-valueing his ethnic id. And for another, in more than one case, I can observe examples that could be contradicting with other examples, and yet you choose which of the two to use, with your own criteria. The other side may just think that you are under-valueing their ethnic id by choosing the other's POV. (actually I think that the whole point of your page should be illustrating those contradictions, but then again, it's your page). NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 22:09, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
As a follow up to the above entry: Thousands of Macedonian citizens have requested and received Bulgarian passports; the recognise that they are “of Bulgarian origin and have Bulgarian national feelings”. [2]. Conclusion: we cannot ignore the thousands of citizens from FYRO/ROM who consider themselves 'Bulgarian' and who have been left out of the census. Politis 14:37, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
- Bizarrely enough it is best to use history, Alexander the Great spread hellenism, not slavoism across asia, Ptolemy in Eygpt ect ect. The Greeks who live up there are the decendants, as much as that is possible (no one is 100% anything these days)of those Macedonians. The Slavs claiming to be Ancient Macedonians too, are slavs..er who live in the northern part of what was Macedonia according to maps 2000 years ago. The problem is, inorder for the slavs to prove they infact the ancient macedonians there are a few key obsticles in the way, mainly reality. To be more precise there are 2 million Greeks in the north that have to be re-cultured into something non ancient macedonian, there is the problem that when the slavs (who are now apparently the same 3rdC. BC Macedonians) came down into the Balkans in 5-9 AD some people happened to notice and wrote it down, and finally there is the problem of them not having any characteristics of the Ancient Macedonians, IE Alphabet, Language, Culture ect where as the Greeks - what they do have left is 90% more then what the slavs ever had, besides this, yes the Greeks are the true Hellenes. Reaper7 21:50, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Is any of the above related to improving this article? Jkelly 22:20, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
I for one support our new JKelly. May he use the name wisely. - FrancisTyers 23:38, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
The weird thing is the guys real name is J Kellyeski, but it was altered 60 years ago to sound more JKelly
Reaper7 23:50, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Far out is there any article with more archives/discussion/arguments/talks than this? For such a small country..... Random viewer. user:144.132.12.83
Yes, Vlatkoto, how come a 'random editor' just happens to locate a map of 'greater Macedonia' : this? which most had never seen? And then, as someone out of the blue, he/she performs an edit (on user:Makedonija) without any idea of what he/she is doing. I think we have to revert their edit. : Politis (T) @ (C)
Watch out! The design is based on a very rare kilim from Chios, once used by the Pasha in Constantinople. : Politis (T) @ (C)
The map of the macedonia region in this article is offensive. There are special propaganda websites for such distortions. How would some people feel if someone inrtoduced a map of 'Bulgarian lands' and included Republic of Macedonia? Makedonija 11:57, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
Something like this is [ [3]] is very useful and very respectful. No Macedonian student in Bulgaria uses the 'region map'; and there are 300,000(?) people of Bulgarian Macedonian origin in Bulgaria who came in the 1920s and 1930s but no one uses map of 'macedonia region' or map of 'Bulgarian region'. Makedonija 12:17, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
Wow!!! Most people in the Balkans want to go to America but you bring America to Macedonia!
This is a notification to all involved editors that there are some apparent double standards used in:
Please place those portals in your watchlists. NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 21:19, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
Actually, since the Ohrid Agreement, Albanian is co-official with Macedonian on a national level, so the problem seems to have been solved. How come you couldn't find that out by yourself? ;) - FrancisTyers 22:21, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
As I've noted to FT, the following can be found on p. 663 of the Encyclopædia Britannica Book of the Year 2003 ( ISBN 0-85229-956-7);the entry for Macedonia (typically one country per page, sometimes more) indicates the following uptop:
The footnote(s) below indicate the following:
which is verbatim the note I added to the infobox, with other content since embellished.
I've restored a conciliatory version, w/o Albanian name in infobox (though I don't deny it, strangely, the Albanian name isn't noted in EB), but with note as before. Telex, I think we were crossing paths (I only realised your restoration after the fact); please restore if problematic and let me know if you've questions. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 22:37, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
For additional context and clarity, the following can be found on p. 463 of the same volume as above in the World Affairs article for Macedonia (different than the country's statistical portrait later in the same volume):
I hope this helps. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 03:25, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
SYNOPSIS OF LANGUAGES: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/17124/17124-h/images/migrations.jpg
We can see these days some of the editors trying to equalize the Macedonian and Albanian language in the Macedonian articles. IMO this is wrong. In Macedonia the fundamental, supreme law is the constitution, not the Ohrid agreement. The principles set in the Ohrid agreement were incorporated through the amendments into the constitution in 2001. If we take a look in the Article 7 of the Macedonian constitution( [4]), we can see the following:
(1) The Macedonian language, written using its Cyrillic alphabet, is the official language throughout the Republic of Macedonia and in the international relations of the Republic of Macedonia.
(2) Any other language spoken by at least 20 percent of the population is also an official language, written using its alphabet, as specified below.
(3) Any official personal documents of citizens speaking an official language other than Macedonian shall also be issued in that language, in addition to the Macedonian language, in accordance with the law.
(4) Any person living in a unit of local self-government in which at least 20 percent of the population speaks an official language other than Macedonian may use any official language to communicate with the regional office of the central government with responsibility for that municipality; such an office shall reply in that language in addition to Macedonian. Any person may use any official language to communicate with a main office of the central government, which shall reply in that language in addition to Macedonian.
(5) In the organs of the Republic of Macedonia, any official language other than Macedonian may be used in accordance with the law.
(6) In the units of local self-government where at least 20 percent of the population speaks a particular language, that language and its alphabet shall be used as an official language in addition to the Macedonian language and the Cyrillic alphabet. With respect to languages spoken by less than 20 percent of the population of a unit of local self-government, the local authorities shall decide on their use in public bodies.
What are the conclusions:
1. Macedonian language is the official language in the whole territory in the country, used in the international relations, in the army, in the Government etc.
2. Any language spoken by at least 20 percent of the population is official in a manner of using it in the units of local self-government, in the Parliament of the country etc, but in addition with the Macedonian, not in parallel!
3. The only language that stays as official in the whole country is the Macedonian and for that reason Albanian IMO can be mentioned appropriately in the article, but cannot be totaly equalized with the Macedonian (it doesn’t have the same level of importance).
MatriX 09:02, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
The sentence you are reading ends with as specified below, and in the subsections below you can see that Albanian is always mentioned as in addition to Macedonian (you will never find something like: Macedonian in addition to Albanian, that is why these two languages have no equal importance at the national level). Officiality of the Albanian language in reality here means that this language can be officialy used by Albanian minority, especially in the communities where the Albanians are more than 20% of the population and some exclusive rights as the opportunity to use that language in the Parliament, nothing more than that. MatriX 11:34, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
If one Macedonian minister of justice admits that there is only one official language at the national level, then who are we to dispute that? It becomes obvious that we cannot agree at the moment around this and for now I will quit the discussion. MatriX 11:49, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
The NPOV principle is to mention that Albanian is official in the municipalties and refers to various documents and stuff. Bomac 14:05, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Note: in the place that is spoken. Bomac 14:08, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Are you sure that you want to be like that ;-). It clearly states passports, I.D.'s and similar administration stuff + ofcourse municipalties. Bomac 14:12, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Yes, as specified below. Bomac 14:16, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Well, for example:
(3) Any official personal documents of citizens speaking an official language other than Macedonian shall also be issued in that language, in addition to the Macedonian language, in accordance with the law.
(4) Any person living in a unit of local self-government in which at least 20 percent of the population speaks an official language other than Macedonian may use any official language to communicate with the regional office of the central government with responsibility for that municipality; such an office shall reply in that language in addition to Macedonian. Any person may use any official language to communicate with a main office of the central government, which shall reply in that language in addition to Macedonian.
-- Bomac 14:21, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Ah, no, no, no... you are not getting the whole picture. You read only what you want to read: Any person. Simply, it's a life relief. Bomac 14:25, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Certainly not. Again, your POV. You are not getting the whole picture. Bomac 14:30, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Ever heard of South Tyrol, cosmopolitan? Bomac 14:34, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
C'm on, think twice... Bomac 14:42, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
I agree. Bomac 14:55, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
What will be in those endnotes, if I may ask? Bomac 15:04, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm adding the name of the country in the other official languages used in some municipalities: Romani, Serbian and Turkish. -- FlavrSavr 16:35, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Oops, I'm not adding nothing, since the article is protected. Could anyone from the sysops add them:
The Republic of Macedonia ( Macedonian: Република Македонија, Albanian: Republika e Maqedonisë, Turkish: Makedonya Cumhuriyeti, Romani: Republika Makedoniya, Serbian: Република Македонија / Republika Makedonija) -- FlavrSavr 16:40, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
It's been put to my attention by Telex that including the exclusively municipal languages in the introduction undermines the status of Albanian as a secondary official language nationwide. According to this logic, including Albanian and other languages in the introduction "undermines" the status of Macedonian as a primary official language. I'd like to explain how language policy works out here - Albanian is an official language, however, it's not official nationwide: it's not in use in the army, in the police, and in 2/3 of the municipalities in the Republic where the percentage of Albanians is below 20%. One can see that the sites of the Parliament and the Government (where Albanian is spoken) are presented in Macedonian only (there's an English version for the foreign public). Given that, I really don't see why we shouldn't include the other official languages in the introduction. -- FlavrSavr 23:05, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Is there a source for this, or should I erase it? Telex 10:05, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
--
Bomac 15:20, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
A clearer version of the image. 2nd okrug, 6th okolia can be read to the right.
Guys, guys, let's focus... I inserted the picture to allude the period this motto dates from. Bomac 15:49, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
We can sort it out... ;-)) Bomac 15:34, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
I completely agree. sigh.... why cant people stp stealing others History Heraklios 23:40, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
I can understand why they admire greek history but Stealing it?? and using false claims???? I dont know.... i guess you believe what you were brought upto believe. personally one of my favourite "arguements" of theirs is that Gotse Delchev was a "Macedonian" :) Heraklios 02:12, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
I believe the next step, is to start speaking the Greek language and trying to convince the world, that the Greeks stole their language! :P -- xvvx 01:21, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
Folks, what a silly editwar again. Can't you guys stop it for a week? I've requested page protection. Lukas (T.| @) 14:15, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
We cannot have the map of extremists disguised as Macedonia region. I am sure reasonable Makedonski contributors will agree with this - yes guys?. Politis 12:23, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
No such map is best. Someone suggested - I think - to also include a map of ethnic Bulgaria that swallows ROM/FYROM. Where do we stop? Let us simply concentrate on the country as defined by its constitution. If people disagree with the constitution they can always petition the parliament in Skopje. Politis 13:26, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
I see you might have a point. There is a need for disambiguity. But it must be unambiguously clear that the historical Greek province of Macedonia is Greece. I am amazed that we have reached the stage where there exists an invented ROM/FYROM discourse and cartography aiming to identify the so-called Macedonia region as its own 'stolen' lands, and also aims to identify anything with the name Macedonia as belonging to its heritage. Politis 14:13, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Hmmm, as an uninformed reader I still miss something:
BTW, UANAL? :-) NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 14:39, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
My opinion (on what uninformed readers may think):
Politis? Others? NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 15:06, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
This cracks me up. Look at User:Macedonia, where he discusses how Greeks "renamed" places in Greek Macedonia. Edessa is a good example; that name was used during the times of the Ancient Macedonians, and they even founded a city with the same name in Mesopotamia (see Edessa, Mesopotamia). User:Macedonia refers to this as a "new Greek changed name", whereas "Voden" is the original name of the place. User:Vlatkoto on the other hand, takes irredentist nostalgia to a different level, by renaming the official name of the Blagoevgrad Province to Blagoevgrad Province (Pirin Macedonia), under the pretext that it is "the real name of the land". The conclusion here is that Fyrom irredentism takes the following forms:
Telex 15:19, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Hmm, it depends on the map. Also, in principle, I am apprehensive about including it. If you want a caption for ROM/FYROM, Telex's is not 100 per cent accurate because the republic consists of 22-25% Albanians and there are also Greeks (including Hellenovlachs), Serbs, Turks, etc., who also live outside its borders.
Further to my prior comments, I think the regional map in this article about the country is not really needed. Disambiguation pages, as evidenced by the hatnote atop the article, are intended to clarify possible ambiguities cited above, and the article (currently) treats its location and the name situation equitably. And, per the country wikiproject, there is a clear locator map in the infobox with other maps below. Relatedly, I'm also working on a geopolitical map that (among other things) delineates the country's current 84 municipalities.
In addition, there are more effective ways to deal with this. For comparison: an article was recently created – Americas (terminology) – to clarify toponymy related to America/ Americas. While the current topic may not have similar breadth, something similar may be warranted here; in the least, a single, succinct regional map can be be added to the Macedonia DAB.
If there's consensus on including such a map here, and I don't see it yet, I might be bold and add similar regional maps to every top-level Macedon/ia-related article (i.e., those in the DAB, current and historic) in Wp for balance. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 15:38, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Well, according to Fyrom's claims, Macedonia (region) is probably something like the following:
Macedonia | ||
---|---|---|
Official name | Fyrom name | |
Albania | Devoll, Korçë and Pogradec Districts | Mala Prespa and Gordo Brdo |
Bulgaria | Blagoevgrad Province | Pirin Macedonia |
Greece | Macedonia | Aegean Macedonia |
Serbia | Pčinja District | Gora and Prohor Pchinski |
Telex 15:53, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
I think the caption (in my proposal now is OK). Telex 16:06, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
That guy seems to be Greek, judging by the name... And how would you define "pro-Fyrom"? Anyone who doesn't agree with Greece? Or just people using Macedonia to refer to the Republic? Am I "pro-Fyrom"? - FrancisTyers 16:16, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
And one that seems pro-Albanian. - FrancisTyers 16:16, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
One from Ireland that uses it, although they have a note: [12]
Pointing out that from a Greek POV the terms might be offensive and adds "In short, it may be very hard to be 'politically correct' with all parties (if conversing in public) even if not intending to offend." So basically its a matter of who you want to offend. From an English point of view the terms are fine. - FrancisTyers 16:27, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Telex, I'm not proposing any changes, I'm querying that the names "Aegean Macedonia" etc. are automatically "Fyrom-POV". - FrancisTyers 16:27, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Also, if "Aegean Macedonia" is offensive, are "Pirin Macedonia" and "Vardar Macedonia" ? - FrancisTyers 16:29, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
So, is it ok for me to say something like "In the context of the larger geographical region of Macedonia, the Republic of Macedonia occupies the geographical region of Vardar Macedonia, the Bulgarian province of Blagoevgrad the region of Pirin Macedonia, and Greek Macedonia occupies the region of Aegean Macedonia"? Or will someone be mortally offended? - FrancisTyers 20:13, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Francis/Pluribus: Aye! I completely agree with the proposed article Macedonia (terminology) and will be glad to contribute. Apart from the content of the articles provided as an example above, the article can also have:
It sounds like a great challenge! Hell, it may even explain to the rest why Balkan people seem crazy nationalists! NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 22:06, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
I know I suggested it, but fun?? You mean fun like eating a brick? Or fun like wearing a concrete overcoat? That said... lets get started. But first tea... you can't start a hotly disputed article (yes, even before I've hit a single key) without refreshment. And what? Optimistic you say? Nay sir, I merely believe in the dignity of collaborative editing and the cutting edge methods of reliable sources and reasoned debate! - FrancisTyers
[offtopic, inflammatory and factually incorrect comment removed - FrancisTyers 09:56, 16 May 2006 (UTC)]
As far as know, if ROM/FYROM becomes an EU member state tomorrow, only Makedonski will be recognised as the official language. Albanian will not become an official EU language until Albania joins. In this respect, the republic has not adopted a bi-lingual status, as, for instance, Belgium. It will be up to Skopje to translate the EU documents in Albanian. A similar example applies to Cyprus. It is up to Nicosia to translate the documents into Turkish because Turkish will not become an EU languge until Turkey joins. At least that is how I understand it. Politis 15:59, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Well, Greece may have managed for the moment to veto the NAME of another country, but you can be sure that it will not be allowed to comment on -- let alone veto -- another country's language! The identification and naming of an EU country's national language(s) is up to the authorities of that country. It is about time Greece [and Cyprus, for that matter] is put in its place -- which is basically a small economically-undeveloped country grafting on the EU, which tries to play games with its Balkan neighbours. -- 87.203.113.61 21:49, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
"Irish is the primary official language of the Republic of Ireland, but it is not yet official in the EU"
Yes it is :) [13] [14] - FrancisTyers 00:05, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
come on man, if you are adding the name of macedonia in albanian, turkish and who knows what else language, than on the greek wikipedia it should be mentioned in all those languages too. but noooooo thats bad:P and this is how it "supposed" to be, its just insane. -- Makedonia 15:25, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
I really think that it's claim to be an objective and fully-functioning encyclopedia is at stake through its choice for the FYROM article's title. And that is because:
a) The article is either subjective on the basis of FYROM claims or on the basis of the United States of America diplomatic stance on the issue. Since FYROM is a member of the United Nations, the UN-adopted name should be the one in the title. This is a different case from those of the self-prolcaimed Republics of China and Northern Cyprus (Turkish*). Those are not recognized by the UN, therefore objective encyclopedias have them under the name they've declared their independence with. In this case, they've been accepting the FYROM name for all international organs, therefore FYROM is the name for the article.
b) The page Macedonia should be linking to both the Greek province AND the FYROM country entity, since both are internationally recognized to contain "Macedonia" in their titles and without including the Greek province you can't give a proper picture of the dispute to the encyclopedia's users.
c) FYROM IS a self-identifying term, as they use it every day in the UN, in their relations with the EU, in their EBU/UER membership and more.
I hope that Wikipedia will make the right choice on this one. Dr. Manos 15:11, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
That hope is in vain. Wiki has already been totally infiltrated by slvs, the UN has been ignored in this case, sad. But Hey! Atleast Wiki now can join its names to countries how ignore the UN like the USA! Reaper7 17:49, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
What is the status of this issue, linked here from Wikipedia:Current surveys#Polls? - Centrx 02:04, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Well of course the Skopians are Bulgarians!!!! There Language IS Bulgarian with some Serbian mixed in with it. Why they cannot come to terms with their real heritage I will never Know Heraklios 14:22, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
They need an identity, don't have one, take one - simple. Reaper7 15:53, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
I believe it's time for the poll to be archived. We have reached a consensus on the introduction and things have calmed down for the last month. -- Avg 09:39, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Whoever is in charge of the pictures in this article, can they replace some of the mountains with pictures showing the living streets and other places of interest of ROM/FYROM? Politis 13:54, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
This edit made me laugh - not as much as this one though ;-) -- Telex 13:12, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
This moltiplication of language names seems absurd, and I feel that only official names should remain, i.e. Macedonian and Albanian. Adding languages like Aromanian makes as much sense as adding the German name to the Italy article because it is official in a single province out of 100.-- Aldux 13:24, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Constitution of the Republic of Macedonia: Article 7 (2):
Affirmed by p. 663 of the Encyclopædia Britannica Book of the Year 2003 ( ISBN 0-85229-956-7). -- Telex 14:07, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Don't say this provision applies only to municipalities. It clearly doesn't - if it did, then only Albanian would qualify as a municipal official language. This is not the case, Turkish can be a municipal official language. -- Telex 14:08, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
This can be seen in setion 6 of article 7, which deals with municipal official languages. Albanian has a higher status to Turkish, but a lower status to Macedonian. Deal with it. -- Telex 14:12, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Also, please explain to me how a citizen of FYROM has a choice of the following passports:
Why can't one get a passport in Macedonian and Turkish, or in Macedonian and Aromanian [16]? Are you sure Albanian is merely a municipal official language, or is it something more perhaps (not greater or equal to Macedonian though, as then it would be possible to get a passport in Albanian only - this has yet to happen). -- Telex 14:16, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
I don’t deny that Albanian is official language in the country, but the article 7 (1) of the Constitution specifies Macedonian as the only official language at national level. The Albanian is official, but only in addition to Macedonian as explicitly said in the article 7 sections 3, 4, 5 and 6. I’m afraid if I continue discussing this and reading again and again the Constitution, I will dream tonight the article 7 subsections:) MatriX 15:07, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
The population of FYROM 1912: North of Sar Planina are Serbs ;South of Sar Planina Bulgars!
Contested Regions according to the map annexed to the Treaty of Alliance (1912)
Map from "Report of the International Commission To Inquire into the Causes and Conduct of the Balkan Wars" 1914. "The Serbian-Bulgarian treaty of 13 March 1912 made provision for the partition of Macedonia along the following lines: 'all the territory north of the Sar range' was to go to Serbia; 'all the region east of the Rhodope range and the Struma valley' was to go to Bulgaria. Bulgaria hoped the intervening country should form an 'autonomous Macedonia', but, if this should prove impossible, a new line was to be drawn leaving Kumanovo, Skoplje and Debar to Serbia, and giving Kratovo, Veles, Bitolj (Monastir) and Ohrid to Bulgaria. Serbia undertook to make no claim south of the line; Bulgaria reserved the right to claim territory to the north, in which case Russia was to act as arbitrator. The area of overlapping claims was known as the 'Contested Zone'. "--quote from: Great Britain. Naval Intelligence Division, Geographical Handbook Series: Jugoslavia, Volume II, 1944, p. 114
Interesting, but irrelevant. -- Tēlex 13:42, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, but it smells like original research. Can you clarify what is wrong with the article? Bomac 15:01, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Aha. Clear case of original research, then. Bomac 15:14, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Dr. Bozhidar Dimitrov claims himself to be the direct ancestor of Bulgars. He also claims that the Bulgarian language is the true ancestor of the sanskrit. Bomac 15:14, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Because he claims Bolgar language as ancestor of the modern Bulgarian, he claims both. BTW, I don't see any logic in this - two main theories decline the Bulgars: 1. They are Turkic people; 2. They are Iranian people. I don't see how are they related to sunskrit. Bomac 15:20, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Hmm. I'm not an expert about the issue, but, however, Dimitrov claims he is nationalist, and the last thing we need is quoting nationalistic views. Bomac 15:27, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Irridentism is really creaping back again. I saw the removal of the dispute with Bulgaria (good point, why has there been nothing on Bulgaria?) and now you are deleating clarification over Greece. I will take reverts into account and re-phrase. Politis 14:29, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
MatriX, why are you denying the right of Slav Macedonians to declare themselves Bulgarians? Presumably thousands could declare to be ethnic [Greek Macedonians] and gain an EU passport through Greece (in fact, many have), but they choose Bulgaria because that is what they feel. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Politis ( talk • contribs) .
Telex, I used to know a number of Slav Macedonians in FYROM (from Greece) and they spoke Greek better than me or, for that matter, than George Papandreou. Also thousands of Slav Macedonians from FYROM speak reasonable Greek because they used to work in Greece in the summer months during the tourist season. This trend has almost disappeared, I think, since the mid-1990s and now Bulgarians and Albanians have taken many of those positions. I do not include that info because it is POV, but it is also a fact. I will re-phrase the census contribution. Also, there are many people who feel Bulgarian but there is a climate of intimidation against them. user:Politis
Евлојиа апо тус Вулгарус прогонус сас. -- Tēlex 17:55, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
OK, Telex, you don't have to translate it ;-) Bomac 18:01, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
Quite so, quite so... (thanks for your constantly watching over me);-) Bomac 18:18, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
BTW, this part holds ground. Don't you think? The Greeks were always pround and, I should add - egoistic. Bomac 18:26, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
In case you're interested, Belgium is called Βέλγιο (Velyio). -- Tēlex 18:07, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
Still though, I'd like to see the actual statement by Misirkov. I don't know whether he had any expertese in the area of Greek lexicology, however, I don't trust republican interpretations (for various reasons). -- Tēlex 18:26, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
Anyway, according to this, he learned in a Greek school till his fourth grade. Bomac 18:37, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
I think his words may have been rather different. After all, he declared as a Bulgarian. -- Tēlex 18:39, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
I really do think that the Foreign Relations section is a fork of Foreign relations of the Republic of Macedonia and should be merged there (perhaps only a brief summary here). -- Tēlex 20:10, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Pse fshini numri i shqiptarëve të Maqedonisë? Në Maqedoni, shqiptarët janë 45 për qind e popullatës. Regjistrimi i përgjithshëm së maqedonisë është propagandë e sllavëve dhe s' është i besueshëm.
I took the liberty of emptying this <sewer> of 407Kb of mostly rants. I even worked on the links in the archive. Feel free to revert me if you think that there was any meaning in all these polls with multiple choices that lead to an un- decipher-able [ sic] dead-end. :NikoSilver: 14:34, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Pre-electoral violence is, saddly, rife in ROM/FYROM, with a number of deaths occuring. And yet, some Slavomakedonjians(?) in wikipedia and other websites still have the naivity to propagate maps and claims for a Skopjian Macedonian country that would swallow sections of Albania, Bulgaria, Greece and Serbia. Question: and just which violent gang of politicians in Skopje would govern this 'happy', ethnically cleased and decimated 'greater Macedonia'? It is time for the sensible Slavomakedonjians to start contributing, people who do not play with 'macedonianising' words and 'ethnic maps' and to show a different, modern face of the country. Politis 16:17, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
That is not trolling, I am telling the truth. The ethnic group doesn't calls itself "Slavomacedonians", it calls itself "Macedonians". That goes for the Greeks from Makedonia. Or? Bomac 21:30, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
That makes the two of us. Bomac 21:33, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
And some Serbs call themselves Yugoslavs (see article in question). -- Tēlex 21:35, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Which Macedonians? -- Tēlex 21:37, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Therefore certain Serbs are Macedonians! Why should they be left out of this? -- Tēlex 21:40, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
They are the people who advocated the creation of Greater Serbia, aren't they? -- Tēlex 21:43, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
How can terms like 'Slav', or 'Scandinavian', or 'Germanic' or 'Latin' be 'offensive'? Our Bulgarian, Polish, Russian, Croatian friends are 'Slavs', how can it be dismissive? For nearly 50 years, the inhabitans of ROM/FYROM were Yugoslavs (Southern Slavs); no one said, drop the 'slav' and call us Yugos (in any case, that's a car). Today, they are independent and their culture is not Greek Macedonian, but Slavo Macedonian with healthy blends of Bulgarian, Hellenic, Albanian and Gipsy elements. Anyway, at least you do not risk your life during the elections period in Greece, Bulgaria and Albania. Politis 11:36, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
Not even at the frequent social strikes and bombs in the center of Athens (Synthagma square etc.)? What was the organisation name... September/October 8?
BTW, do I feel that the ethnic purity doctrine circles again around us? Bomac 14:06, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
To Bomac: ethnic circles and purity? That is a pleasantly LOL remark, especially coming from a person who, it seems, is desperate to identify a distinct 'pure Macedonian' ethnicity. Someone who imposes 'ethnic maps of pure ethnic Macedonians'! Slavism is a culture primarily identified through language and partially through the Cyrillic alphabet. Dear Bomac, I think we have to protect you from your own naivity because you are really not a bad person. Politis 15:36, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, no such 'ethnic purity' claims on this chapter. Being a 'Slav' is not an ethnic attribute but, as pointed out, to share certain common cultural traits. Some people are offended if they are called Slavs and Macedonians in the same breath. The only other choice is Hellenic Macedonians and it is well suited to those who do not consider themselves 'Greek' but who claim links with Alexander's Macedonia. But if you want to drop the 'Slav' epithet, then go back to the Greek language (or call it Romaic if you dislike the term 'Greek'). I accept that just 'Macedonian', on its own is, indeed of common usage in most parts of the world, but that does not mean the problem has been solved because the appelation is so recent and so imbued with Hellenic conotations that one can reasonably question its future. Politis 16:48, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
It is not about if someone is proud beeing a Slav, it's about the name that the people use in their everyday lives. The name they identify with and differ from other Slavic nations. OK, you can have your POV by calling the nation "Slavomacedonians", but the real/existing name of the nation is Macedonians. Bomac 20:25, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
Analogue to this would be: Greeks, Greeks, Greeks, Greeks or Greeks? ;-) Bomac 20:57, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
Is this in any way related to improving this article? Jkelly 20:53, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
-- Aldux 23:21, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
This whole arguement started by one genius saying 'there are no slavomacedonians.' Never in the history of Europe has there been a people so confused and sensitive about how others perceive them beside perhaps certain nazi party members who would get angry if someone didn't adhere to their
Aryan roots. So very postmodern...
#
Reaper7
Sure. Bomac 14:09, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
Quick qestion. Is there even a mention of the word 'slav' in the whole article? Or do the Fyromians carry direct decent from 500BC to present day with less slav culture and blood than even the Greeks? Anyone reading this article might think they are not a slavic people. Reaper7
-- Aldux 14:29, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
If I am not of greek decent and you also from another part of the world and we visit FYROM and Greece we will notice the Greeks speak a language that is the direct decendant of Ancient Greek besides a few Roman and Turkish words thrown in. It has mostly Words and roots found in ancient Theban, Macedonian, Athenian, Thessalian ect texts and monuments. Therefore there is an obvious link seeing that the Greeks still live in these same lands today. Slavs and Albanians famously settled in Greece north and esp south, and now they are Greeks. Unfortunately there were not enough to alter greek culture or language significantly. FYROM does not share this History. The language and names are far far more obviously AD slav than anything else and this should be mentioned because everyday it becomes clearer it is not just Macedonian they speak as if it has a shred of connection to Ancient Macedonian which is how the article appears by not mentioning the word 'slav' at all. Someone who has a basic knowledge of the world will go, 'Is it me or are they speaking and writing russian?' Someone intelligent will simply say, hold on, they are speaking bad bulgarian, I thought i recognised it.' At least with Greek you can see in the alphabet and culture that they have kept and retained certain key aspects of the ancient world besides a name 'Hellenic.' There is a link to the ancient world greater than the name of the country and some ruins. I feel if someone reads this article they need to atleast read that the language is virtually bulgarian and there are countless articles not from FYROM stating that. Also as you said the slav invasions should be mentioned as whatever anyone says either side, these invasions had an impact on those who claim to be from the Republic of Macedonia that affects language, culture, religion appearance - everything. # Reaper7
Luka, it is POV to say that some ethnic Macedonians declare themselves as Bulgarians. As far as people declaring themselves as Bulgarians are concerned, they are Bulgarians declaring as Bulgarians. Respect their right to self-identification - imagine if I went to Croatia and said that it is inhabited by predominantly by ethnic Serbs declaring themselves as Croats, or to Romania and said that it is inhabited by ethnic Moldovans declaring themselves as Romanians, or even to say that the Republic of Macedonia is inhabited by Bulgarians declaring themselves Macedonians. People are who they say they are - don't impose POV labels, especially without citing sources. -- Tēlex 17:55, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
According to this article of the Macedonian constitution, actualy article number 7:
Article 7 The Macedonian language, written using its Cyrillic alphabet, is the official language in the Republic of Macedonia.
In the units of local self-government where the majority of the inhabitants belong to a nationality, in addition to the Macedonian language and Cyrillic alphabet, their language and alphabet are also in official use, in a manner determined by law. In the units of local self-government where there is a considerable number of inhabitants belonging to a nationality, their language and alphabet are also in official use, in addition to the Macedonian language and Cyrillic alphabet, under conditions and in a manner determined by law.
This has been discussed before. See Talk:Republic of Macedonia/Archive10#Languages. -- Tēlex 21:02, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
Constitution of the Republic of Macedonia: Article 7 (2):
Affirmed by p. 663 of the Encyclopædia Britannica Book of the Year 2003 ( ISBN 0-85229-956-7). If Albanian is spoken by more than 20% of the populationm, it is also official according to the constitution. This is confirmed by Britannica. Please read the archives - this has all been answered; we agreed even not to have the Albanian name in the infobox so as to keep you happy. If we are to play by the book, then we should readd it. -- Tēlex 21:20, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
Член 7
На целата територија во Република Македонија и во нејзините меѓународни односи службен јазик е македонскиот јазик и неговото кирилско писмо. (You pointed this part) Друг јазик што го зборуваат најмалку 20% од граѓаните, исто така, е службен јазик и неговото писмо, (and whats the meaning of the following) како што е определено со овој член. <<<It says as it is defined bellow of this article. (Please read it slowly). Личните документи на граѓаните кои зборуваат службен јазик различен од македонскиот јазик, се издаваат на македонски јазик и неговото писмо, како и на тој јазик и неговото писмо во согласност со закон. Кој било граѓанин кој живее во единиците на локалната самоуправа во која најмалку 20% од граѓаните зборуваат службен јазик различен од македонскиот јазик, во комуникацијата со подрачните единици на министерствата, може да употреби кој било од службените јазици и неговото писмо. Подрачните единици надлежни за тие единици на локалната самоуправа одговараат на македонски јазик и неговото кирилско писмо, како и на службениот јазик и писмо што го употребува граѓанинот. Секој граѓанин во комуникација со министерствата може да употребува еден од службените јазици и неговото писмо, а министерствата одговараат на македонски јазик и неговото кирилско писмо, како и на службениот јазик писмото што го употребува граѓанинот. Во органите на државната власт во Република Македонија службен јазик различен од македонскиот јазик, може да се користи во согласност со закон. Во единиците на локалната самоуправа јазикот и писмото што го користат најмалку 20% од граѓаните е службен јазик, покрај македонскиот и неговото кирилско писмо. За употребата на јазиците и писмата на кои зборуваат помалку од 20% од граѓаните во единиците на локалната самоуправа, одлучуваат органите на единиците на локалната самоуправа. (And finaly it is defned opnly as an municipality language not a state one)
Fellas, lets not get so anti- WP:NPA. Bomac 22:19, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
I wouldn't say so, but can you make a compromise here, at en-Wiki? Can you Vlatko and Telex make a compromise? Bomac 22:24, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
Then go ahead and stop pretending you are a constitution analyst. It says clearly that 20%+ is official. It doesn't say less than official or mostly official or near-official. It says official. Now if you don't have what it takes to specify within your constitution which is the only language that has more than 20% frequency in your country, then at least don't pretend it is not so by disputable WP:OR constitutional interpretations. :NikoSilver: 23:35, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
The more languages the better. See United Kingdom, 6 languages in the Infobox *cool* :)) - FrancisTyers · 22:26, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
Should this not even be mentioned once? IE if this suddenly stops being the case, the country will significantly suffer as greece is its only major investor. # Reaper7
Greece is the first among foreign investors in FYROM, having invested a total of more than 460 million euros.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_Greece
LOL
Reaper7 ]]
Please read the articles before making requests. The source is the European Commission. If in any doubht, log on to its site. People can always write to the Commission and explain to them that they disagree... :-) Politis 15:21, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Please Luka Jačov, do not go about asking for proof about everything - or as targetting in a prejudicial manner ethnicities you may despise (I am sure you respect them all). The republic has many minorities and ethnicities because it never went to war in the 1990s trying to wipe them out. Politis 18:25, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
If we dont have proof how can we know if information is verifibal? During Balkan Wars Greeks took much of Macedonian Slav ethnic territory leaving no Greeks north from then Serbian-Greek border. Show us some proof (presence of Greek Orthodox Church, Association of Ethnic Greeks in Macedonia or similar) and then it could be put again. Sorry but this is wikipedia policy. Luka Jačov 19:30, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Also, why did you erase the fact that the "Macedonian" language has a substantial Greek influence and many words of Greek origin. This is a fact, and has been sourced at Macedonian language. Do you espouse anti-Greek sentiment - I wouldn't be surprised. -- Tēlex 19:42, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Luka, I just had a bit of an exchange with Telex and he really comes down when he thinks there are double standards, irrespective of their source (mine, yours, or the man in the moon). I think that is a positive attribute and welcome in wikipedia. Politis 19:54, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Yes Telex we've been through this before and we came to conclusion there is no Greek community in Republic of Macedonia. Joshuaproject cannot be taken as relevant and not to say quote of Greek Minister and could be serious violation of Wikipedia's NPOV policy. Also you say "historic presense". Kruševo has Vlach community which was historicly pro-Greek. I didnt found anything that says about "substantial" Greek influence. Could you gives a proof that Macedonian is influenced by Greek more then it is for example by Turkish language or that Macedonian language has more Greek influence than Bulgarian language (as sentence sounds that one of difference of Bulgarian and Macedonian is Greek influence). I said Macedonian Slavs as neutral term (they are Slavs they are Macedonians no matter if we say they Bulgarians or seperate nation). As you can see on maps of article you gave me there are no Greeks showed in area of today's Republic Macedonia but also not even near its border as maps show Greeks inhabitated only southern edge of historical Macedonia. And I should also point you up that blackmailing not only that is against wikipedia's policy and against normal deceint behaviour it also shows your lack of arguments. So until we get reliable sources we cannot have that information listed. Luka Jačov 20:57, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Also, why are you saying that "some Macedonians identify as Bulgarians". If they say they are Bulgarians, then they are Bulgarians. Period. See #Self-id. -- Tēlex 21:15, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
BTW soomeone in the FYROM government claimed in 1993 that there are between 230,000 and 270,000 "Macedonians" in Greece [22]. How come we can write that in Wikipedia, but not what the Greek minister says. Neutrality works both ways, you know. Either we say both, or none. Period. -- Tēlex 21:25, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Well if you check Egyptians article you ll see they were recorded on 1994 census. Macedonian language does not mentions that the language is "substantialy influenced by Greek" so this is clear pushing of POV. About Bulgarians it should be noted that some people that would otherwise be considered as Macedonians feel Macedonians belong to Bulgarian nation and that they are not seperate. Therefore this is more political preference then ethnical distinction and that should be noted. I dont care what you are goin to do with Macedonians in Greece you do what ever you want. Luka Jačov 22:28, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Requested by Luka Jačov. Source: Statistical Yearbook of the Republic of Macedonia 2004 (CD version)
-- FlavrSavr 02:55, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
I have looked through the archive and this appears not to have been discussed. Is there a verifiable reliable reference for the motto for Republic of Macedonia (Слобода или смрт (English: Liberty or death))? It appears to have only been valid about 100 years ago, and even then quite unofficially and by a small group of people. I'm inclined to remove it unless it can be verified. Thanks. -- zzuuzz (talk) 00:40, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Telex about the rape of "MAcedonian" land from its "rightful" owners. also i believe the Skopjan uprising took inspiration from the Greek independance struggle and used the Greek's motto. Heraklios 00:13, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Its fun to go through external links with reference to Wikipedia:External links and determine which ones should be included according to policies and to cut down on external link spam! Like a game! - FrancisTyers · 23:52, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
This map is stupid. It allocates Albanian populated areas (Tetovo, Gostivar) to Serbia. -- Tēlex 14:37, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Well I appreciate the fact that the article was reviewed officially but I still think it needs to be labeled. My reasons are that in the article there are still far too many "facts" to be disputed as representing a certain viewpoint on the matter in question. I feel biased from the Bulgarian viewpoint so I would refrain from editing bits but I would insist that there remains a warning that the article could contain statements whose neutrality is disputable. I deliberatly avoid going into details because there is far too much talking going on already.
These are useful to understand geopolitics and international perceptions, and the reasons and change of these perceptions through time. Perhaps a corresponding section should be created in these articles.
I'll start with a quote.
«ἡ κυβέρνησις τῶν Η.Π.Α. θεωρεῖ, ὅτι συζήτησις περὶ «Μακεδονικοῦ ἔθνους, Μακεδονικῆς πατρίδος καὶ Μακεδονικῆς ἐθνικῆς συνειδήσεως» ἰσοῦται μὲ δημαγωγίαν, ποὺ δὲν ὑποκρύπτει ἐθνικὴν ἢ πολιτικὴν πραγματικότητα, ἀλλὰ ὑποκρύπτει ἐπεκτατικὰς διαθέσεις κατὰ τῆς Ἑλλάδος».
"The United States government holds, that any discussion of a Macedonian nation, Macedonian homeland, or Macedonian national identity, to be demagoguery, that does not hold ethnic or political reality, but expansionary attitudes towards Greece."
- Edward Stettinius, U.S. Secretary of State, December 26, 1944
http://www.sartzetakis.gr/points/makedonia16.html
OK, just saw that wiki puts everything in bold. Politis 11:59, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Elections tend to act as a fuse for violent inter-ethnic and cross-political confrontations, occasionally resulting in deaths. The situation is seen as seriously tarnishing the international reputation of the country. The government in Skoplje hopes to uphold EU and NATO standards with a view to joining them, but has to contend with un-democratic procedures. In the July 2006 elections, NATO warned it over pre-election violence or risk delays in the country's ambitions to join the military alliance. NATO and E.U. officials see the elections as a key test of Macedonian ambitions of joining both organizations after local elections in March 2005 were marred by irregularities. NATO intervention in 2001 helped prevent ethnic conflict developing into full-scale civil war. For the 2006 Parliamentary Elections, the international community sent 6,000 observers to monitor electoral procedures. [24] [25], AP and other agencies. The 2006 electoral violence included clashes between Albanian Macedonians [26].
Done. I hope that everything's OK with the summary. I really have no time to expand the Macedonian election article at the moment. -- FlavrSavr 01:03, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
I wonder why the article doesnt mention the Antifascist Assembly of The National Liberation of Macedonia (Antifashistichko Sobranie na Narodnoto oslobododuvanje na Makedonija- ASNOM) held on the 2nd of August 1944 (as a symbolical continuation from The Ilinden Uprising and the Krushevo Republic from the 2nd of August 1903) when this state was in fact formally created? Let me remind you and I will cite sources if needed that ASNOM was recognized by the Allies (USA, UK, USSR) and foreign missions have visited the People's-Liberation army (Partisans) and attended the ASssembly itself.(
I mean, people, you may dispute this and that, the ethnicity, the language, the name of the state and so on and so on, but some basic information on this subject is missing here in this article and Im talking about FACTS that all the sides will agree on. The article only says something like (not an exact but rather an ironical quote): the war ended tito became president he said "from now on u will be called Macedonia". Fullstop. Nothing is mentioned about the ideological basis for the creation of the state, about the continuity with the struggle for "autonomous Macedonia" of
VMRO in the past, btw the veteran from Ilinden 1903 Panko Brashnarov was the first speaker of that above mentioned historical Assembly on the 2nd of August 1944 and some of the members of the government incl. former VMRO and Ilinden revolutionaries such as Pavel Shatev for example. Tito did help the whole thing, but he was certainly not the initiator and also later he actually persecuted those who demanded more or complete independence of that Macedonian state from Yugoslavia.
This article may give a wrong impression to uninformed readers that the state was created on the 8th of September 1991?! It only gives the 8th of September as the beginning of the whole thing, while disregarding the continuity with the previous Socialist republic of Macedonia which existed all the time as a STATE with some degree of souvereinity withing Yugoslavia, with capital Skopje, flag, coat of arms, own government, national institutions, Academy of Sciences and Arts etc. All the time during the existing of Tito's Yugoslavia, Republic of Macedonia existed (the formal name doesnt matter, People's Republic of Macedonia, then Socialist Republic of Macedonia etc.). You may claim that it was "an artificial nation that was once Bulgarian but suddenly became "Macedonian", it doesnt matter, adding some simple coldblooded FACTS is needed, how this south european state was formed is among the most important. If Greece for example can claim continuity regardless of the changes to the political system (monarchy, republic, again monarchy, again republic, metaxas dictatorship 1936-1941, military junta '67 and what not), also today's Republic of Macedonia is a continuation of what was created at ASNOM and the struggle during the VMRO/Ilinden period and
Krste Misirkov , who who was the first who began seriously propagating "macedonian nation", separate "macedonian language", separate "Macedonian church", codification of the language and phonetic alphabet back in late 19th-early 20th century.
At least, these things can be added with a note that this is the official point of view of Republic of macedonia regarding her history, Im sure that even ppl who would opposed it, they may be interested to learn about it.
This article is written in a so simplified way, also the external link section is so empty?! Why no one puts for example
The official website of the Archive of republic of Macedonia. I mean if this wikipedia article is about RoM/FYROM I suppose that IT IS ABSOLUTELY NORMAL to have a link to a RoM/FYROM website with RoM/FYROM POV about history and politics.--
Vbb-sk-mk 03:53, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Should it not be mentioned that unless FYROM's name is changed from the title page's version, Greece will Veto FYROM's entry into the EU and the country will be even more isloated? The article is written as if that is the permanent name and there is no chance of a change.. Reaper7 17:45, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
Yesterday translated from Greek so we can all read.
http://www.phantis.com/news/?newsID=20060830130047 Reaper7 20:23, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
It says that most people are adherents of the Macedonian Orthodox Church. I share a neutral POV and would very much like the MOC officially recognized - but isn't this contradicting with the Serbian Orthodox Church. Also, what about atheists and agnostics? They're always a majority in former Communist states. -- HolyRomanEmperor 12:56, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
I think this article is very ambiguous with very little reference. When you read it you get the impression that there was no difference between Bulgarian or Byzanthine rule, i.e. it was not part of Bulgaria. This cannot have been true because under Samuil the capital of Bulgaria was Ohrid (which is not mentioned,) there is no point making a capital in a foreign land so obviously this region was an integral part of Bulgaria. Also, it is not mentioned the macedonian music which is popular in Bulgaria and all over the world and is not in Macedonian but in Bulgarian dialect language. I notice this sentence "Harsh rule by the occupying forces encouraged many Macedonians to support the Communist Partisan resistance movement of Josip Broz Tito." - it's not very clear which occupying forces and this sounds like an opinion not facts. So basically, I think this article needs to expand more on the History - it seems like there was no history during ottoman rule which is not true at all - there are many documents about the liberation movement and the famous liberation leaders like Jane Sandanski, also VMRO should be mentioned as well. -- Edi
Macedonia is probably the most disputed region in the world - I apologize to the Israelis and the Palestinians but there issue is like a fight between 3-year-olds compared to the macedonian matters.I am bulgarian and like all bulgarians I support our version because it is the right version.Don't put us aside and don't neglect our role and contributions , because they are also the most crucial ! - BraikoT
Some points:
I understand that each nation tries to make their nation as good as possible on this site. However i feel reality is being ever so gently sedated with pretentious dribble.
All in all I find the article like someone trying to butter a bad situation. The country's future is uncertain yet the underlying problems seem sugared over. Reaper7 23:29, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
By an anon:
Next time don't erase them if they are in the wrong place,try moving them yourself since you are so unbiased.
"We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century ... we are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians."
A guideline on whether or not to italicize Cyrillics (and all scripts other than Latin) is being debated at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (text formatting)#Italics in Cyrillic and Greek characters. - - Evv 16:15, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Scroll down to the group photo - http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/articles/. Also have a read of this article from the Time archives http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,796967,00.html
If someone is Macedonian he has to speek greek greek the language of Hellenic nation the nation that Alexander the Great make and includes only Greeks.
This does NOT include trade embargos ect, just a basic display first for you why the phrase 'good relations' is what we call a lie in english:
The indeterminate status of the Republic of Macedonia's name arises from a long-running dispute with Greece, which criticizes the use of what is considered to be Greek name and symbols. The main points of the dispute are:
The naming issue was "parked" in a compromise agreed at the United Nations in 1993. However, Greece refused to grant diplomatic recognition to the Republic and imposed an economic blockade that lasted until the flag and constitutional issues were resolved in 1995.
Greek concerns over the name arise from a number of factors:
The naming issue has not yet been resolved, but it has effectively reached a stalemate. In 1993, the United Nations obtained Greece's acquiesence to the admission of the Republic of Macedonia by adopting the provisional name of "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" or "FYROM" [1] (поранешна Југословенска Република Македонија - ПЈРМ) [2] However, much to the annoyance of the Greek government, the compromise is wearing increasingly thin, as most states have recognised the country as the "Republic of Macedonia" instead. These include the permanent UN Security Council members of the United States, Russia, and the People's Republic of China, and the former Yugoslavian republics of Serbia, Montenegro, Croatia, Bosnia-Herzegovina and Slovenia. In addition, the Republic of Macedonia's other neighbours, Bulgaria and Albania, have also recognised the nation by its constitutional name.
This compromise name is always used in relations when states not recognizing the constitutional name are parties. This is due to the fact that the UN refers to the country only as FYROM, although all UN member-states (and the UN as a whole) have agreed to accept any final agreement resulting from negotiations between the two countries.
The dispute continues to excite passions in both nations, but in practice the two countries deal pragmatically with each other. Economic relations and cooperation have resumed since 1995 to such an extent that Greece is now considered one of the republic's most important foreign economic partners and investors.[3]
Within Greece, many Greeks reject any use of the word "Macedonia" to describe the Republic of Macedonia, instead calling it ΠΓΔΜ, the Greek version of FYROM, or Skopje and its inhabitants Skopians (Greek: Skopiani), after the country's capital. This metonymic name is not used by non-Greeks, and many inhabitants of the Republic regard it as insulting. Greek official sources sometimes use the term "Slavomacedonian" to refer to the Republic's inhabitants and its language (even the US State Department has used the term side by side with Macedonian, albeit having them both in quotation marks [4]). The term "Macedonian Slavs" is another term sometimes used to refer to the ethnic Macedonians by non-Greeks. A number of news agencies have used it (although the BBC recently discontinued its use on the grounds that people had alleged it was offensive), and it is used by the Encarta Encyclopedia. The Macedonian language translation of Macedonian Slavs - Македонски Словени - has been occasionally used in the past by Macedonian sources, and the term is used in Krste Misirkov's work On Macedonian Issues.
The United Nations set a target of September 13, 2002 for reaching a solution to the issue. This date passed without any solution being found and it is unclear how the issue will be resolved, given the apparently irreconcilable positions of the two sides. The Republic of Macedonia says that it will not abandon the name "Macedonia", while Greece says that it will not accept any permanent name that includes "Macedonia".
The March 2004 application of the Republic of Macedonia for membership of the European Union may help to speed efforts to find a solution; in a meeting of 14 September 2004, the EU noted that the difference over the name of the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia still persists and encouraged parties to find a mutually acceptable solution, but stated that it is not part of the conditions for EU accession.
In 2005, Matthew Nimetz, UN Special Representative for the country, suggested using "Republika Makedonija-Skopje" [sic] for official purposes. Greece did not accept the proposal outright, but characterized it as "a basis for constructive negotiations". Prime Minister Vlado Buckovski rejected the proposal and counterproposed a "double formula" where the international community uses "Republic of Macedonia" and Greece uses "former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia". [5][6]
In October 2005 Nimetz made a new proposal. It proposes that the name “Republika Makedonija” should be used by the 106 countries that have recognized the country under that name. It proposes, also, that Greece should use the formula “Republika Makedonija – Skopje”, while the international institutions and organizations should use the name “Republika Makedonia” in Latin alphabet transcription. While the government of the Republic of Macedonia accepted the proposal as a good basis for solving the dispute, Greece rejected the proposal as unacceptable.[7]
[edit] Flag issue The former flag of Republic of Macedonia (used from 1992-1995) Enlarge The former flag of Republic of Macedonia (used from 1992-1995)
Republic of Macedonia's first post-independence flag caused a major controversy when it was unveiled. The use of the Vergina Sun on the flag offended Greeks, as the symbol is being associated with King Philip II of Macedon and by extension with his son, Alexander the Great. The Greek viewpoint was summed up in an FAQ circulated on the Internet in the late 1990s:
The Vergina Sun, the emblem of Philip's dynasty, symbolizes the birth of our nation. It was the first time (4th century BC) that the Greek mainland (city-states and kingdoms) with the same language, culture, and religion were united against the enemies of Asia in one league. At the same time the fractured Greek world grew conscious of its unity. And, in this sense, we have never been apart since then. The "Sun" was excavated in Greece in 1978, and it is sacred to us. [8]
The symbol was removed from the flag under an agreement reached between the Republic of Macedonia and Greece in September 1995. The Republic agreed to meet a number of Greek demands for changes to its national symbols and constitution, while Greece agreed to establish diplomatic relations with the Republic and end its economic blockade.
Constitutional issue
The Republic of Macedonia's first post-independence constitution, adopted on November 17, 1991 included a number of clauses that Greece interpreted as promoting secessionist sentiment among the Slavophone population of northern Greece, and making irredentist claims on Greek territory. Article 49 of the constitution caused particular concern. It read:
In the Greek view, this was effectively a license for the Republic to interfere in Greek internal affairs. The offending articles were removed under the 1995 agreement between the two sides.
From here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_the_Republic_of_Macedonia#Greece
Reaper7 20:17, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
I have read the article and I was amazed by the use of the word Macedonian. There is an open name dispute that is not a matter of foreign relations or of how many countries will recognize the small country with the name it wants.
The problem is very important and very real. I tried to find a good analogy in the comments by I was not able to find something close. Let me state my own analogy.
How would an american (US) feel if mexico was renamed by it's own government as Indians?
How would someone living in Norway, or Sweden, or Denmark feel if a new country was created in the region and the name it chose would be "The Vikings"?
It is clear that the problem Greeks have is more than historical. It is a problem of human rights (of the Greeks is macedonia), it is an economic problem (commerce and trading confusion) and finally a major historic distorion.
Please comment on what I state below.
By
Everydaypanos 12:20, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
1. What is the problem?
The choice of the name Macedonia by FYROM directly raises the issue of usurpation of the cultural heritage of a neighbouring country. The name constitutes the basis for staking an exclusive rights claim over the entire geographical area of Macedonia. More specifically, to call only the Slavo-Macedonians Macedonians monopolizes the name for the Slavo-Macedonians and creates semiological confusion, whilst violating the human rights and the right to self-determination of Greek Macedonians. The use of the name by FYROM alone may also create problems in the trade area, and subsequently become a potential springboard for distorting reality, and a basis for activities far removed from the standards set by the European Union and more specifically the clause on good neighbourly relations. The best example of this is to be seen in the content of school textbooks in the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia.
For the first time in their history, in recognition of the problem the United Nations (Security Council and General Assembly) gave the new state the temporary name of Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM).
2. What caused the problem?
The problem arose when in 1944 the then Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia under Tito formed a federal state from scratch, to which it gave the name of a large neighbouring administrative region of Greece - Macedonia. The present-day independent state has evolved from the calculations and steps taken in the 40s.
3. How has the problem evolved?
In 1992 the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia tabled an application to join the United Nations under the name of Republic of Macedonia. On 7th April 1993 the Security Council noted that although the country fulfilled the criteria for accession to the UN, there was nonetheless a dispute over its name, which needed to be resolved in the interests of maintaining peace and good neighbourliness in the region. The country was consequently accepted under the temporary name of Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia.
Security Council Resolution 817/7.4.1993 officially states that the difference over the name of the State needs to be resolved in the interest of the maintenance of peaceful and good-neighbourly relations in the region and calls upon the parties to work together for a speedy solution to their dispute. The process for solving this dispute is indicated in Security Council Resolution 817/7.4.1993 and Resolution 845/18.6.1993, which calls upon the parties to continue their bilateral talks under the auspices of the UN Secretary-General with the objective of solving outstanding bilateral issues as soon as possible. Also, on 8th April 1993, the General Assembly unanimously accepted the accession of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia to the United Nations with this name. Consequently, both the Security Council and the General Assembly recognised the validity of the Greek arguments on the name issue.
On 13th September 1995, Greece and FYROM signed an Interim Agreement which constituted the point of departure for normalisation of their relations, with the only pending issue being that of the name. According to the Interim Agreement, the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia has officially accepted that the name of the State is a subject of bilateral negotiations with Greece, as provided for by the two Security Council Resolutions, in other words 817/93 and 845/93, and Article 5.1 of the Interim Agreement. It is therefore clear that the object of the exercise is to replace the temporary international name of Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia with a permanent name acceptable to both parties.
4. Why has the issue not been settled so far?
Over the past decade the two countries have many times been on the brink of reaching a solution. Unfortunately, FYROMs intransigence and more specifically that of the present government has not enabled us to reach a mutually acceptable solution.
5. Does Greece maybe feel threatened by a small country such as the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia?
There is no question of a military threat to Greece by the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. On the contrary, cooperation between the two neighbouring countries is developing in many sectors. The fact, however, that the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia insists on achieving exclusive use of the name Macedonia, or Democracy of Macedonia on the one hand, is not in accordance with the respective UN Resolutions (Security Council Resolutions 817/93 and 845/93) and, on the other hand, is directed against the cultural heritage and historical identity of the Greeks. The visible risk of future destabilisation in the region should therefore not be ignored. Moreover, since the Ohrid Agreement, FYROM has changed its constitutional form and no longer sees itself, as foreseen in the 1991 Constitution, as the state of the Macedonians.
6. Will FYROMs European prospects help settle the issue?
It is a good opportunity for settling the issue, since good neighbourly relations are a requirement of states wanting to join the European Union and do not square with the FYROM Slavo-Macedonians insistence in standing by their intransigent and negative stance towards efforts to resolve the issue.
7. Does recognition of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia by the United States under the name of Democracy of Macedonia make it more difficult to solve the dispute?
The United States recognise the need for a mutually acceptable solution within the United Nations framework, irrespective of the reasoning that led to their unilateral recognition. As they have repeated on many occasions, the United States support Mr. Nimetz efforts.
8. What is the current state of play?
For the first time on 29th March, the UN Secretary-Generals Special Envoy Mr. Nimetz tabled a global proposal for finding a mutually acceptable solution to the name issue. Mr. Nimetz proposes that for international use the name Republika Makedonija-Skopje should be used in untranslated form. This name would be valid for all UN bodies, and the UN will propose to other international organisations and states that they also adopt it for official international use. On 8th April, Greece announced that she accepted the Nimetz proposal as a basis for negotiations despite the fact that there were many points in the proposal which needed to be clarified and amended. The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, on the other hand, rejected the proposal and insisted on a double name.
On 25 April, 2005, for the first time in many years, the Conclusions of the E.U. General Affairs Council referred to recent developments on the issue of the name of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia as follows: The Council noted recent developments concerning the dispute as to the name of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia and, in particular, all of the ideas put forward by the Special Representative of the Secretary General of the United Nations, whose efforts it supports. The Council encouraged Greece and the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia to intensify their efforts with a view to finding a negotiated and mutually acceptable solution within the framework of United Nations Security Council Resolutions 817/1993 and 845/1993 as quickly as possible.
On 8 October, 2005, Mr. Nimetz presented a new proposal, the contents of which have not been made public. FYROM initially accepted this new proposal. Greece, however, declared it unacceptable as it adopted FYROMs position.
Greece continues to support the procedure stipulated in UN Resolution 813/93, stating her readiness to reach a jointly acceptable solution on the name issue.
Greece has demonstrated her desire to reach a solution that will lead to the full normalisation of bilateral relations, facilitate the course of her neighbour towards the Euro-Atlantic institutions, and consolidate stability and cooperation in our region, which would be conducive to solving the issue of Kosovo. Greece has also made it clear that there is no question of her neighbour acceding either to the European Union or to NATO under the name Republic of Macedonia.
Do Macedonia stil have conscription?
Nope. Its now vuluntary/paid army. (Or whatever its called.)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | → | Archive 15 |
Excuse me would really appreciate any info on the Egyptians in Macedonia, when did they get there? How many are there? What religion do they follow Coptic orthodox Christianity, Sunni Islam? How did they get there or why? Is it a common occurence in the region, in neighbouring countries? Plz any info would be greatly appreciated.
Let them name the page Republic of macedonia, it is quite obvious their research of Greeks and Japanese being African is flawless and Alexander the Great spoke a language nothing like Greek despite 3-5bc finds in macedon with greek inscriptions, but one that would be invented 9 centuries after his death. Having said this I would also like to nominate Joey from Friends as the next US president, perhaps he will let the slavs rename Skopje Solun? Some more nice humour for you: http://macedoniancivilization.blog.com.mk/node/1301 Reaper7 18:38, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Where is the new DNA research from FYROM, proving that Greeks actualy have alien origins and they must go from earth??? :P I believe that sometimes we have to be serious and stop the stupidities! -- xvvx 17:45, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
People are forgeting the Bulgarian identity and heritage of the Republic of Macedonia. It is impossible to study Bulgarian history and culture and leave out its lost western heartland that reaches Ohrid. The history of the Republic of Macedonia starts with Bulgaria; to deny this truth would be like saying that Yorkshire is not English, or Peloponnese not Greek, or Elbasan not Albanian. Goce Delcev and many more are Bulgarian heros for peace and democracy for all. They never spoke of our brothers in Vardar Bulgaria as 'ethnic Macedonians', no one spoke of that until Tito. We were all Bulgarians, even if we were born in Skopje, Sandanski, America or Western Europe. Makedonija 11:22, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Now that is a heck of analogy. Do you really think this is adequate? Bomac 11:52, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Well said Telex, the FYROMians search so hard to find evidence that the Bulgarian Macedonians are unique, your examples are well thought out, especially the kosovo one. Now we need to teach them how the Spartans, Thebans, Macedonians, Athenians ect were just that - Spartans, Thebans, Macedonians, Athenians - bound only by hellenism. Then we need to show the archeaology that shows they all wrote and spoke a language similar to the various Greeks spoken by all the different city states, then we need to write an essay on small cultures with inferiority complexes, then hopefully a few of them will start to go,' that stuff they taught me at school in Skopje that us slavs are the real Macedonians - that is true.,.,.,.isn't it??' Reaper7 15:29, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
I don't think God saved the ethnic Macedonians, they just built a strong city known in ancient times (see carvings) and modern as Thessaloniki. When the slavs invaded they were safe in there. I think the macedonians have the walls to thank for that. But according to modern FYROM mythology, who were those Greeks in Salonika? Aliens put them in there? Is it possible they are the remnents of the Ancient Macedonians? According to FYROM they must have just been shipped there by ET, where as the real Macedonians stayed outside the walls of Salonika because it was safe in the fields, waited for the slavs 5-9AD, mixed with them exclusively - every last one - lost their language, and now are Alexander the Great's little slav children living in Skopje..mmmm Reaper7 17:28, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
"Sofia, 01.05.1899, Kolyo, ... May the dissents and cleavages not frighten you. It is really a pity, but what can we possibly do when we ourselves are Bulgarians and all suffer from the same disease! If this disease had not existed in our forefathers who passed it on to us, we wouldn't have fallen under the ugly sceptre of the Turkish sultans..."
-Dame Gruev (Director of the Bulgarian school in Stip).
http://img67.exs.cx/img67/8450/MapbyAmiBoue1847.jpg http://img56.exs.cx/img56/5857/VolkerkartevonMittel-undSudosteuropa.jpg http://img56.exs.cx/img56/3069/slaveni-karta.jpg http://img57.exs.cx/img57/1241/ResizeofEuropavolkerundsprachenkarte.jpg http://img57.exs.cx/img57/8127/1880-geoturkeyethnographical.jpg http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd/races_balkan_shepherd_1923.jpg http://www.cjcr.cam.ac.uk/gateway/maps/Ethnic16.gif http://mitglied.lycos.de/anakin77/Sprachkarten/eth2.jpg http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/7540/makedonienlandschaftsundkultur.jpg
http://www.univ.trieste.it/~storia/corsi/Dogo/tabelle/popolaz-ottomana1911.jpg
http://img24.exs.cx/img24/7216/Invitation1893.jpg
http://img24.exs.cx/img24/6279/Svobodailismyrtpechat.jpg
http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/4454/skopie18701nx.jpg
http://img47.exs.cx/img47/9107/balgarska_Obshtina_v_prilep.jpg
THEOPHYLACTUS, arcivescovo di Ochrida http://www.comune.empoli.fi.it/biblioteca/CATALOGO/schede/sch785.html http://www.comune.empoli.fi.it/biblioteca/CATALOGO/schede/front785.html
The article's title should be "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" in accordance to the name recognized by the United Nations, as happens to all nation entries. Also the links at the bottom of the entry are biased towards supporting the FYROM opinion on the disputes with Greece, lacking any credible reference to the Greek arguments. Dr. Manos 22:15, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
You "Macedonian" guys are behaving like confused western Bugarians and you ignore the history of your ancestors. Instead you try to turn all your neighbours against you with your maps and invented history. The regional map in the main article reflects clear distortion of reality against Bulgaria (and the other 3 neighbours). OK then, how about this: as other people have pointed out, the Republic is and has always been Vardar Bulgaria. The way you are going, one day you will be responsible for the religious heartland of Bulgarians (Ohrid) to be inhabited by Albanians and anyone callling themselves Macedonian will be coming to Bulgari... [user:Makedonija]]
Ohrid is the religious centre of the Bulgarian church, in a way, that is where Bulgaria discovered it had absorbed the lessons of Byzantium and realized it was a civilising power. user:Makedonija
There is a very big difference. Bulgaria lost Ohrid to the 'lost Bulgarians'; Greeks did not loose Istanbul until the 1950s with the pogroms. When the Ottoman Turks conquered Constantinople the Greeks became the masters of the Christians. When Serbia / Yugoslavia took Ohrid, the Bulgarians lost even the right to worship there. user:Makedonija
Unfortunately your fellow Bulgarians who came down with you in the 5-9AD now think they are the only true relatives of Alexander the Great. As soon as you say the word Bulgarian 50 years of propaganda forces them to explode. Reaper7 18:20, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
...and Greeks aren't "masters of the Christians". See Pope vs Patriarch of Constantinople and Halki seminary etc... NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 19:45, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
"Masters" of the Christians?! Oh boy... Not even the most ultra nationalist Greeks would have conceived this one! We are completely unable to even sort out our own Greek Orthodox Church problems! If you haven't seen Christodoulos vs Vartholomeos or heard of what Irineos and Babylis have done you haven't seen how low church debates can go:-) -- Avg 20:43, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
Its ok, i'm sure a in a couple more years the FYROMians will claim to have started our church too, so all this mess in our church is down to them at the end of the day. Some of the benfits of having your history altered, they can take the corruption aswell as the glory.. Reaper7 21:15, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
I am not accusing you of renouncing your ethnic id Fran. You missed the point, but maybe it is because I started on the wrong foot. I am just saying that if someone would be under-valueing other people's ethnic id's, that would be more nationalistic than being a nationalist himself. I think you agree to that. And maybe I was a little harsh in calling you an "unaware victim", but you had given on my nerves (or maybe my nerves themselves are the issue). Maybe your page about nationalists is not intended in promoting under-valueing of other people's ethnic id's, but you must admit that there is no clear boundary for that. For one thing it is not clear what someone may consider as under-valueing his ethnic id. And for another, in more than one case, I can observe examples that could be contradicting with other examples, and yet you choose which of the two to use, with your own criteria. The other side may just think that you are under-valueing their ethnic id by choosing the other's POV. (actually I think that the whole point of your page should be illustrating those contradictions, but then again, it's your page). NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 22:09, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
As a follow up to the above entry: Thousands of Macedonian citizens have requested and received Bulgarian passports; the recognise that they are “of Bulgarian origin and have Bulgarian national feelings”. [2]. Conclusion: we cannot ignore the thousands of citizens from FYRO/ROM who consider themselves 'Bulgarian' and who have been left out of the census. Politis 14:37, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
- Bizarrely enough it is best to use history, Alexander the Great spread hellenism, not slavoism across asia, Ptolemy in Eygpt ect ect. The Greeks who live up there are the decendants, as much as that is possible (no one is 100% anything these days)of those Macedonians. The Slavs claiming to be Ancient Macedonians too, are slavs..er who live in the northern part of what was Macedonia according to maps 2000 years ago. The problem is, inorder for the slavs to prove they infact the ancient macedonians there are a few key obsticles in the way, mainly reality. To be more precise there are 2 million Greeks in the north that have to be re-cultured into something non ancient macedonian, there is the problem that when the slavs (who are now apparently the same 3rdC. BC Macedonians) came down into the Balkans in 5-9 AD some people happened to notice and wrote it down, and finally there is the problem of them not having any characteristics of the Ancient Macedonians, IE Alphabet, Language, Culture ect where as the Greeks - what they do have left is 90% more then what the slavs ever had, besides this, yes the Greeks are the true Hellenes. Reaper7 21:50, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Is any of the above related to improving this article? Jkelly 22:20, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
I for one support our new JKelly. May he use the name wisely. - FrancisTyers 23:38, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
The weird thing is the guys real name is J Kellyeski, but it was altered 60 years ago to sound more JKelly
Reaper7 23:50, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Far out is there any article with more archives/discussion/arguments/talks than this? For such a small country..... Random viewer. user:144.132.12.83
Yes, Vlatkoto, how come a 'random editor' just happens to locate a map of 'greater Macedonia' : this? which most had never seen? And then, as someone out of the blue, he/she performs an edit (on user:Makedonija) without any idea of what he/she is doing. I think we have to revert their edit. : Politis (T) @ (C)
Watch out! The design is based on a very rare kilim from Chios, once used by the Pasha in Constantinople. : Politis (T) @ (C)
The map of the macedonia region in this article is offensive. There are special propaganda websites for such distortions. How would some people feel if someone inrtoduced a map of 'Bulgarian lands' and included Republic of Macedonia? Makedonija 11:57, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
Something like this is [ [3]] is very useful and very respectful. No Macedonian student in Bulgaria uses the 'region map'; and there are 300,000(?) people of Bulgarian Macedonian origin in Bulgaria who came in the 1920s and 1930s but no one uses map of 'macedonia region' or map of 'Bulgarian region'. Makedonija 12:17, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
Wow!!! Most people in the Balkans want to go to America but you bring America to Macedonia!
This is a notification to all involved editors that there are some apparent double standards used in:
Please place those portals in your watchlists. NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 21:19, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
Actually, since the Ohrid Agreement, Albanian is co-official with Macedonian on a national level, so the problem seems to have been solved. How come you couldn't find that out by yourself? ;) - FrancisTyers 22:21, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
As I've noted to FT, the following can be found on p. 663 of the Encyclopædia Britannica Book of the Year 2003 ( ISBN 0-85229-956-7);the entry for Macedonia (typically one country per page, sometimes more) indicates the following uptop:
The footnote(s) below indicate the following:
which is verbatim the note I added to the infobox, with other content since embellished.
I've restored a conciliatory version, w/o Albanian name in infobox (though I don't deny it, strangely, the Albanian name isn't noted in EB), but with note as before. Telex, I think we were crossing paths (I only realised your restoration after the fact); please restore if problematic and let me know if you've questions. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 22:37, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
For additional context and clarity, the following can be found on p. 463 of the same volume as above in the World Affairs article for Macedonia (different than the country's statistical portrait later in the same volume):
I hope this helps. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 03:25, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
SYNOPSIS OF LANGUAGES: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/17124/17124-h/images/migrations.jpg
We can see these days some of the editors trying to equalize the Macedonian and Albanian language in the Macedonian articles. IMO this is wrong. In Macedonia the fundamental, supreme law is the constitution, not the Ohrid agreement. The principles set in the Ohrid agreement were incorporated through the amendments into the constitution in 2001. If we take a look in the Article 7 of the Macedonian constitution( [4]), we can see the following:
(1) The Macedonian language, written using its Cyrillic alphabet, is the official language throughout the Republic of Macedonia and in the international relations of the Republic of Macedonia.
(2) Any other language spoken by at least 20 percent of the population is also an official language, written using its alphabet, as specified below.
(3) Any official personal documents of citizens speaking an official language other than Macedonian shall also be issued in that language, in addition to the Macedonian language, in accordance with the law.
(4) Any person living in a unit of local self-government in which at least 20 percent of the population speaks an official language other than Macedonian may use any official language to communicate with the regional office of the central government with responsibility for that municipality; such an office shall reply in that language in addition to Macedonian. Any person may use any official language to communicate with a main office of the central government, which shall reply in that language in addition to Macedonian.
(5) In the organs of the Republic of Macedonia, any official language other than Macedonian may be used in accordance with the law.
(6) In the units of local self-government where at least 20 percent of the population speaks a particular language, that language and its alphabet shall be used as an official language in addition to the Macedonian language and the Cyrillic alphabet. With respect to languages spoken by less than 20 percent of the population of a unit of local self-government, the local authorities shall decide on their use in public bodies.
What are the conclusions:
1. Macedonian language is the official language in the whole territory in the country, used in the international relations, in the army, in the Government etc.
2. Any language spoken by at least 20 percent of the population is official in a manner of using it in the units of local self-government, in the Parliament of the country etc, but in addition with the Macedonian, not in parallel!
3. The only language that stays as official in the whole country is the Macedonian and for that reason Albanian IMO can be mentioned appropriately in the article, but cannot be totaly equalized with the Macedonian (it doesn’t have the same level of importance).
MatriX 09:02, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
The sentence you are reading ends with as specified below, and in the subsections below you can see that Albanian is always mentioned as in addition to Macedonian (you will never find something like: Macedonian in addition to Albanian, that is why these two languages have no equal importance at the national level). Officiality of the Albanian language in reality here means that this language can be officialy used by Albanian minority, especially in the communities where the Albanians are more than 20% of the population and some exclusive rights as the opportunity to use that language in the Parliament, nothing more than that. MatriX 11:34, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
If one Macedonian minister of justice admits that there is only one official language at the national level, then who are we to dispute that? It becomes obvious that we cannot agree at the moment around this and for now I will quit the discussion. MatriX 11:49, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
The NPOV principle is to mention that Albanian is official in the municipalties and refers to various documents and stuff. Bomac 14:05, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Note: in the place that is spoken. Bomac 14:08, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Are you sure that you want to be like that ;-). It clearly states passports, I.D.'s and similar administration stuff + ofcourse municipalties. Bomac 14:12, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Yes, as specified below. Bomac 14:16, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Well, for example:
(3) Any official personal documents of citizens speaking an official language other than Macedonian shall also be issued in that language, in addition to the Macedonian language, in accordance with the law.
(4) Any person living in a unit of local self-government in which at least 20 percent of the population speaks an official language other than Macedonian may use any official language to communicate with the regional office of the central government with responsibility for that municipality; such an office shall reply in that language in addition to Macedonian. Any person may use any official language to communicate with a main office of the central government, which shall reply in that language in addition to Macedonian.
-- Bomac 14:21, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Ah, no, no, no... you are not getting the whole picture. You read only what you want to read: Any person. Simply, it's a life relief. Bomac 14:25, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Certainly not. Again, your POV. You are not getting the whole picture. Bomac 14:30, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Ever heard of South Tyrol, cosmopolitan? Bomac 14:34, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
C'm on, think twice... Bomac 14:42, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
I agree. Bomac 14:55, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
What will be in those endnotes, if I may ask? Bomac 15:04, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm adding the name of the country in the other official languages used in some municipalities: Romani, Serbian and Turkish. -- FlavrSavr 16:35, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Oops, I'm not adding nothing, since the article is protected. Could anyone from the sysops add them:
The Republic of Macedonia ( Macedonian: Република Македонија, Albanian: Republika e Maqedonisë, Turkish: Makedonya Cumhuriyeti, Romani: Republika Makedoniya, Serbian: Република Македонија / Republika Makedonija) -- FlavrSavr 16:40, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
It's been put to my attention by Telex that including the exclusively municipal languages in the introduction undermines the status of Albanian as a secondary official language nationwide. According to this logic, including Albanian and other languages in the introduction "undermines" the status of Macedonian as a primary official language. I'd like to explain how language policy works out here - Albanian is an official language, however, it's not official nationwide: it's not in use in the army, in the police, and in 2/3 of the municipalities in the Republic where the percentage of Albanians is below 20%. One can see that the sites of the Parliament and the Government (where Albanian is spoken) are presented in Macedonian only (there's an English version for the foreign public). Given that, I really don't see why we shouldn't include the other official languages in the introduction. -- FlavrSavr 23:05, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Is there a source for this, or should I erase it? Telex 10:05, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
--
Bomac 15:20, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
A clearer version of the image. 2nd okrug, 6th okolia can be read to the right.
Guys, guys, let's focus... I inserted the picture to allude the period this motto dates from. Bomac 15:49, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
We can sort it out... ;-)) Bomac 15:34, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
I completely agree. sigh.... why cant people stp stealing others History Heraklios 23:40, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
I can understand why they admire greek history but Stealing it?? and using false claims???? I dont know.... i guess you believe what you were brought upto believe. personally one of my favourite "arguements" of theirs is that Gotse Delchev was a "Macedonian" :) Heraklios 02:12, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
I believe the next step, is to start speaking the Greek language and trying to convince the world, that the Greeks stole their language! :P -- xvvx 01:21, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
Folks, what a silly editwar again. Can't you guys stop it for a week? I've requested page protection. Lukas (T.| @) 14:15, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
We cannot have the map of extremists disguised as Macedonia region. I am sure reasonable Makedonski contributors will agree with this - yes guys?. Politis 12:23, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
No such map is best. Someone suggested - I think - to also include a map of ethnic Bulgaria that swallows ROM/FYROM. Where do we stop? Let us simply concentrate on the country as defined by its constitution. If people disagree with the constitution they can always petition the parliament in Skopje. Politis 13:26, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
I see you might have a point. There is a need for disambiguity. But it must be unambiguously clear that the historical Greek province of Macedonia is Greece. I am amazed that we have reached the stage where there exists an invented ROM/FYROM discourse and cartography aiming to identify the so-called Macedonia region as its own 'stolen' lands, and also aims to identify anything with the name Macedonia as belonging to its heritage. Politis 14:13, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Hmmm, as an uninformed reader I still miss something:
BTW, UANAL? :-) NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 14:39, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
My opinion (on what uninformed readers may think):
Politis? Others? NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 15:06, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
This cracks me up. Look at User:Macedonia, where he discusses how Greeks "renamed" places in Greek Macedonia. Edessa is a good example; that name was used during the times of the Ancient Macedonians, and they even founded a city with the same name in Mesopotamia (see Edessa, Mesopotamia). User:Macedonia refers to this as a "new Greek changed name", whereas "Voden" is the original name of the place. User:Vlatkoto on the other hand, takes irredentist nostalgia to a different level, by renaming the official name of the Blagoevgrad Province to Blagoevgrad Province (Pirin Macedonia), under the pretext that it is "the real name of the land". The conclusion here is that Fyrom irredentism takes the following forms:
Telex 15:19, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Hmm, it depends on the map. Also, in principle, I am apprehensive about including it. If you want a caption for ROM/FYROM, Telex's is not 100 per cent accurate because the republic consists of 22-25% Albanians and there are also Greeks (including Hellenovlachs), Serbs, Turks, etc., who also live outside its borders.
Further to my prior comments, I think the regional map in this article about the country is not really needed. Disambiguation pages, as evidenced by the hatnote atop the article, are intended to clarify possible ambiguities cited above, and the article (currently) treats its location and the name situation equitably. And, per the country wikiproject, there is a clear locator map in the infobox with other maps below. Relatedly, I'm also working on a geopolitical map that (among other things) delineates the country's current 84 municipalities.
In addition, there are more effective ways to deal with this. For comparison: an article was recently created – Americas (terminology) – to clarify toponymy related to America/ Americas. While the current topic may not have similar breadth, something similar may be warranted here; in the least, a single, succinct regional map can be be added to the Macedonia DAB.
If there's consensus on including such a map here, and I don't see it yet, I might be bold and add similar regional maps to every top-level Macedon/ia-related article (i.e., those in the DAB, current and historic) in Wp for balance. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 15:38, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Well, according to Fyrom's claims, Macedonia (region) is probably something like the following:
Macedonia | ||
---|---|---|
Official name | Fyrom name | |
Albania | Devoll, Korçë and Pogradec Districts | Mala Prespa and Gordo Brdo |
Bulgaria | Blagoevgrad Province | Pirin Macedonia |
Greece | Macedonia | Aegean Macedonia |
Serbia | Pčinja District | Gora and Prohor Pchinski |
Telex 15:53, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
I think the caption (in my proposal now is OK). Telex 16:06, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
That guy seems to be Greek, judging by the name... And how would you define "pro-Fyrom"? Anyone who doesn't agree with Greece? Or just people using Macedonia to refer to the Republic? Am I "pro-Fyrom"? - FrancisTyers 16:16, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
And one that seems pro-Albanian. - FrancisTyers 16:16, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
One from Ireland that uses it, although they have a note: [12]
Pointing out that from a Greek POV the terms might be offensive and adds "In short, it may be very hard to be 'politically correct' with all parties (if conversing in public) even if not intending to offend." So basically its a matter of who you want to offend. From an English point of view the terms are fine. - FrancisTyers 16:27, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Telex, I'm not proposing any changes, I'm querying that the names "Aegean Macedonia" etc. are automatically "Fyrom-POV". - FrancisTyers 16:27, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Also, if "Aegean Macedonia" is offensive, are "Pirin Macedonia" and "Vardar Macedonia" ? - FrancisTyers 16:29, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
So, is it ok for me to say something like "In the context of the larger geographical region of Macedonia, the Republic of Macedonia occupies the geographical region of Vardar Macedonia, the Bulgarian province of Blagoevgrad the region of Pirin Macedonia, and Greek Macedonia occupies the region of Aegean Macedonia"? Or will someone be mortally offended? - FrancisTyers 20:13, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Francis/Pluribus: Aye! I completely agree with the proposed article Macedonia (terminology) and will be glad to contribute. Apart from the content of the articles provided as an example above, the article can also have:
It sounds like a great challenge! Hell, it may even explain to the rest why Balkan people seem crazy nationalists! NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 22:06, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
I know I suggested it, but fun?? You mean fun like eating a brick? Or fun like wearing a concrete overcoat? That said... lets get started. But first tea... you can't start a hotly disputed article (yes, even before I've hit a single key) without refreshment. And what? Optimistic you say? Nay sir, I merely believe in the dignity of collaborative editing and the cutting edge methods of reliable sources and reasoned debate! - FrancisTyers
[offtopic, inflammatory and factually incorrect comment removed - FrancisTyers 09:56, 16 May 2006 (UTC)]
As far as know, if ROM/FYROM becomes an EU member state tomorrow, only Makedonski will be recognised as the official language. Albanian will not become an official EU language until Albania joins. In this respect, the republic has not adopted a bi-lingual status, as, for instance, Belgium. It will be up to Skopje to translate the EU documents in Albanian. A similar example applies to Cyprus. It is up to Nicosia to translate the documents into Turkish because Turkish will not become an EU languge until Turkey joins. At least that is how I understand it. Politis 15:59, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Well, Greece may have managed for the moment to veto the NAME of another country, but you can be sure that it will not be allowed to comment on -- let alone veto -- another country's language! The identification and naming of an EU country's national language(s) is up to the authorities of that country. It is about time Greece [and Cyprus, for that matter] is put in its place -- which is basically a small economically-undeveloped country grafting on the EU, which tries to play games with its Balkan neighbours. -- 87.203.113.61 21:49, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
"Irish is the primary official language of the Republic of Ireland, but it is not yet official in the EU"
Yes it is :) [13] [14] - FrancisTyers 00:05, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
come on man, if you are adding the name of macedonia in albanian, turkish and who knows what else language, than on the greek wikipedia it should be mentioned in all those languages too. but noooooo thats bad:P and this is how it "supposed" to be, its just insane. -- Makedonia 15:25, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
I really think that it's claim to be an objective and fully-functioning encyclopedia is at stake through its choice for the FYROM article's title. And that is because:
a) The article is either subjective on the basis of FYROM claims or on the basis of the United States of America diplomatic stance on the issue. Since FYROM is a member of the United Nations, the UN-adopted name should be the one in the title. This is a different case from those of the self-prolcaimed Republics of China and Northern Cyprus (Turkish*). Those are not recognized by the UN, therefore objective encyclopedias have them under the name they've declared their independence with. In this case, they've been accepting the FYROM name for all international organs, therefore FYROM is the name for the article.
b) The page Macedonia should be linking to both the Greek province AND the FYROM country entity, since both are internationally recognized to contain "Macedonia" in their titles and without including the Greek province you can't give a proper picture of the dispute to the encyclopedia's users.
c) FYROM IS a self-identifying term, as they use it every day in the UN, in their relations with the EU, in their EBU/UER membership and more.
I hope that Wikipedia will make the right choice on this one. Dr. Manos 15:11, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
That hope is in vain. Wiki has already been totally infiltrated by slvs, the UN has been ignored in this case, sad. But Hey! Atleast Wiki now can join its names to countries how ignore the UN like the USA! Reaper7 17:49, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
What is the status of this issue, linked here from Wikipedia:Current surveys#Polls? - Centrx 02:04, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Well of course the Skopians are Bulgarians!!!! There Language IS Bulgarian with some Serbian mixed in with it. Why they cannot come to terms with their real heritage I will never Know Heraklios 14:22, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
They need an identity, don't have one, take one - simple. Reaper7 15:53, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
I believe it's time for the poll to be archived. We have reached a consensus on the introduction and things have calmed down for the last month. -- Avg 09:39, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Whoever is in charge of the pictures in this article, can they replace some of the mountains with pictures showing the living streets and other places of interest of ROM/FYROM? Politis 13:54, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
This edit made me laugh - not as much as this one though ;-) -- Telex 13:12, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
This moltiplication of language names seems absurd, and I feel that only official names should remain, i.e. Macedonian and Albanian. Adding languages like Aromanian makes as much sense as adding the German name to the Italy article because it is official in a single province out of 100.-- Aldux 13:24, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Constitution of the Republic of Macedonia: Article 7 (2):
Affirmed by p. 663 of the Encyclopædia Britannica Book of the Year 2003 ( ISBN 0-85229-956-7). -- Telex 14:07, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Don't say this provision applies only to municipalities. It clearly doesn't - if it did, then only Albanian would qualify as a municipal official language. This is not the case, Turkish can be a municipal official language. -- Telex 14:08, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
This can be seen in setion 6 of article 7, which deals with municipal official languages. Albanian has a higher status to Turkish, but a lower status to Macedonian. Deal with it. -- Telex 14:12, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Also, please explain to me how a citizen of FYROM has a choice of the following passports:
Why can't one get a passport in Macedonian and Turkish, or in Macedonian and Aromanian [16]? Are you sure Albanian is merely a municipal official language, or is it something more perhaps (not greater or equal to Macedonian though, as then it would be possible to get a passport in Albanian only - this has yet to happen). -- Telex 14:16, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
I don’t deny that Albanian is official language in the country, but the article 7 (1) of the Constitution specifies Macedonian as the only official language at national level. The Albanian is official, but only in addition to Macedonian as explicitly said in the article 7 sections 3, 4, 5 and 6. I’m afraid if I continue discussing this and reading again and again the Constitution, I will dream tonight the article 7 subsections:) MatriX 15:07, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
The population of FYROM 1912: North of Sar Planina are Serbs ;South of Sar Planina Bulgars!
Contested Regions according to the map annexed to the Treaty of Alliance (1912)
Map from "Report of the International Commission To Inquire into the Causes and Conduct of the Balkan Wars" 1914. "The Serbian-Bulgarian treaty of 13 March 1912 made provision for the partition of Macedonia along the following lines: 'all the territory north of the Sar range' was to go to Serbia; 'all the region east of the Rhodope range and the Struma valley' was to go to Bulgaria. Bulgaria hoped the intervening country should form an 'autonomous Macedonia', but, if this should prove impossible, a new line was to be drawn leaving Kumanovo, Skoplje and Debar to Serbia, and giving Kratovo, Veles, Bitolj (Monastir) and Ohrid to Bulgaria. Serbia undertook to make no claim south of the line; Bulgaria reserved the right to claim territory to the north, in which case Russia was to act as arbitrator. The area of overlapping claims was known as the 'Contested Zone'. "--quote from: Great Britain. Naval Intelligence Division, Geographical Handbook Series: Jugoslavia, Volume II, 1944, p. 114
Interesting, but irrelevant. -- Tēlex 13:42, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, but it smells like original research. Can you clarify what is wrong with the article? Bomac 15:01, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Aha. Clear case of original research, then. Bomac 15:14, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Dr. Bozhidar Dimitrov claims himself to be the direct ancestor of Bulgars. He also claims that the Bulgarian language is the true ancestor of the sanskrit. Bomac 15:14, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Because he claims Bolgar language as ancestor of the modern Bulgarian, he claims both. BTW, I don't see any logic in this - two main theories decline the Bulgars: 1. They are Turkic people; 2. They are Iranian people. I don't see how are they related to sunskrit. Bomac 15:20, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Hmm. I'm not an expert about the issue, but, however, Dimitrov claims he is nationalist, and the last thing we need is quoting nationalistic views. Bomac 15:27, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Irridentism is really creaping back again. I saw the removal of the dispute with Bulgaria (good point, why has there been nothing on Bulgaria?) and now you are deleating clarification over Greece. I will take reverts into account and re-phrase. Politis 14:29, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
MatriX, why are you denying the right of Slav Macedonians to declare themselves Bulgarians? Presumably thousands could declare to be ethnic [Greek Macedonians] and gain an EU passport through Greece (in fact, many have), but they choose Bulgaria because that is what they feel. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Politis ( talk • contribs) .
Telex, I used to know a number of Slav Macedonians in FYROM (from Greece) and they spoke Greek better than me or, for that matter, than George Papandreou. Also thousands of Slav Macedonians from FYROM speak reasonable Greek because they used to work in Greece in the summer months during the tourist season. This trend has almost disappeared, I think, since the mid-1990s and now Bulgarians and Albanians have taken many of those positions. I do not include that info because it is POV, but it is also a fact. I will re-phrase the census contribution. Also, there are many people who feel Bulgarian but there is a climate of intimidation against them. user:Politis
Евлојиа апо тус Вулгарус прогонус сас. -- Tēlex 17:55, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
OK, Telex, you don't have to translate it ;-) Bomac 18:01, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
Quite so, quite so... (thanks for your constantly watching over me);-) Bomac 18:18, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
BTW, this part holds ground. Don't you think? The Greeks were always pround and, I should add - egoistic. Bomac 18:26, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
In case you're interested, Belgium is called Βέλγιο (Velyio). -- Tēlex 18:07, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
Still though, I'd like to see the actual statement by Misirkov. I don't know whether he had any expertese in the area of Greek lexicology, however, I don't trust republican interpretations (for various reasons). -- Tēlex 18:26, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
Anyway, according to this, he learned in a Greek school till his fourth grade. Bomac 18:37, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
I think his words may have been rather different. After all, he declared as a Bulgarian. -- Tēlex 18:39, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
I really do think that the Foreign Relations section is a fork of Foreign relations of the Republic of Macedonia and should be merged there (perhaps only a brief summary here). -- Tēlex 20:10, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Pse fshini numri i shqiptarëve të Maqedonisë? Në Maqedoni, shqiptarët janë 45 për qind e popullatës. Regjistrimi i përgjithshëm së maqedonisë është propagandë e sllavëve dhe s' është i besueshëm.
I took the liberty of emptying this <sewer> of 407Kb of mostly rants. I even worked on the links in the archive. Feel free to revert me if you think that there was any meaning in all these polls with multiple choices that lead to an un- decipher-able [ sic] dead-end. :NikoSilver: 14:34, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Pre-electoral violence is, saddly, rife in ROM/FYROM, with a number of deaths occuring. And yet, some Slavomakedonjians(?) in wikipedia and other websites still have the naivity to propagate maps and claims for a Skopjian Macedonian country that would swallow sections of Albania, Bulgaria, Greece and Serbia. Question: and just which violent gang of politicians in Skopje would govern this 'happy', ethnically cleased and decimated 'greater Macedonia'? It is time for the sensible Slavomakedonjians to start contributing, people who do not play with 'macedonianising' words and 'ethnic maps' and to show a different, modern face of the country. Politis 16:17, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
That is not trolling, I am telling the truth. The ethnic group doesn't calls itself "Slavomacedonians", it calls itself "Macedonians". That goes for the Greeks from Makedonia. Or? Bomac 21:30, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
That makes the two of us. Bomac 21:33, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
And some Serbs call themselves Yugoslavs (see article in question). -- Tēlex 21:35, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Which Macedonians? -- Tēlex 21:37, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Therefore certain Serbs are Macedonians! Why should they be left out of this? -- Tēlex 21:40, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
They are the people who advocated the creation of Greater Serbia, aren't they? -- Tēlex 21:43, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
How can terms like 'Slav', or 'Scandinavian', or 'Germanic' or 'Latin' be 'offensive'? Our Bulgarian, Polish, Russian, Croatian friends are 'Slavs', how can it be dismissive? For nearly 50 years, the inhabitans of ROM/FYROM were Yugoslavs (Southern Slavs); no one said, drop the 'slav' and call us Yugos (in any case, that's a car). Today, they are independent and their culture is not Greek Macedonian, but Slavo Macedonian with healthy blends of Bulgarian, Hellenic, Albanian and Gipsy elements. Anyway, at least you do not risk your life during the elections period in Greece, Bulgaria and Albania. Politis 11:36, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
Not even at the frequent social strikes and bombs in the center of Athens (Synthagma square etc.)? What was the organisation name... September/October 8?
BTW, do I feel that the ethnic purity doctrine circles again around us? Bomac 14:06, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
To Bomac: ethnic circles and purity? That is a pleasantly LOL remark, especially coming from a person who, it seems, is desperate to identify a distinct 'pure Macedonian' ethnicity. Someone who imposes 'ethnic maps of pure ethnic Macedonians'! Slavism is a culture primarily identified through language and partially through the Cyrillic alphabet. Dear Bomac, I think we have to protect you from your own naivity because you are really not a bad person. Politis 15:36, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, no such 'ethnic purity' claims on this chapter. Being a 'Slav' is not an ethnic attribute but, as pointed out, to share certain common cultural traits. Some people are offended if they are called Slavs and Macedonians in the same breath. The only other choice is Hellenic Macedonians and it is well suited to those who do not consider themselves 'Greek' but who claim links with Alexander's Macedonia. But if you want to drop the 'Slav' epithet, then go back to the Greek language (or call it Romaic if you dislike the term 'Greek'). I accept that just 'Macedonian', on its own is, indeed of common usage in most parts of the world, but that does not mean the problem has been solved because the appelation is so recent and so imbued with Hellenic conotations that one can reasonably question its future. Politis 16:48, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
It is not about if someone is proud beeing a Slav, it's about the name that the people use in their everyday lives. The name they identify with and differ from other Slavic nations. OK, you can have your POV by calling the nation "Slavomacedonians", but the real/existing name of the nation is Macedonians. Bomac 20:25, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
Analogue to this would be: Greeks, Greeks, Greeks, Greeks or Greeks? ;-) Bomac 20:57, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
Is this in any way related to improving this article? Jkelly 20:53, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
-- Aldux 23:21, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
This whole arguement started by one genius saying 'there are no slavomacedonians.' Never in the history of Europe has there been a people so confused and sensitive about how others perceive them beside perhaps certain nazi party members who would get angry if someone didn't adhere to their
Aryan roots. So very postmodern...
#
Reaper7
Sure. Bomac 14:09, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
Quick qestion. Is there even a mention of the word 'slav' in the whole article? Or do the Fyromians carry direct decent from 500BC to present day with less slav culture and blood than even the Greeks? Anyone reading this article might think they are not a slavic people. Reaper7
-- Aldux 14:29, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
If I am not of greek decent and you also from another part of the world and we visit FYROM and Greece we will notice the Greeks speak a language that is the direct decendant of Ancient Greek besides a few Roman and Turkish words thrown in. It has mostly Words and roots found in ancient Theban, Macedonian, Athenian, Thessalian ect texts and monuments. Therefore there is an obvious link seeing that the Greeks still live in these same lands today. Slavs and Albanians famously settled in Greece north and esp south, and now they are Greeks. Unfortunately there were not enough to alter greek culture or language significantly. FYROM does not share this History. The language and names are far far more obviously AD slav than anything else and this should be mentioned because everyday it becomes clearer it is not just Macedonian they speak as if it has a shred of connection to Ancient Macedonian which is how the article appears by not mentioning the word 'slav' at all. Someone who has a basic knowledge of the world will go, 'Is it me or are they speaking and writing russian?' Someone intelligent will simply say, hold on, they are speaking bad bulgarian, I thought i recognised it.' At least with Greek you can see in the alphabet and culture that they have kept and retained certain key aspects of the ancient world besides a name 'Hellenic.' There is a link to the ancient world greater than the name of the country and some ruins. I feel if someone reads this article they need to atleast read that the language is virtually bulgarian and there are countless articles not from FYROM stating that. Also as you said the slav invasions should be mentioned as whatever anyone says either side, these invasions had an impact on those who claim to be from the Republic of Macedonia that affects language, culture, religion appearance - everything. # Reaper7
Luka, it is POV to say that some ethnic Macedonians declare themselves as Bulgarians. As far as people declaring themselves as Bulgarians are concerned, they are Bulgarians declaring as Bulgarians. Respect their right to self-identification - imagine if I went to Croatia and said that it is inhabited by predominantly by ethnic Serbs declaring themselves as Croats, or to Romania and said that it is inhabited by ethnic Moldovans declaring themselves as Romanians, or even to say that the Republic of Macedonia is inhabited by Bulgarians declaring themselves Macedonians. People are who they say they are - don't impose POV labels, especially without citing sources. -- Tēlex 17:55, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
According to this article of the Macedonian constitution, actualy article number 7:
Article 7 The Macedonian language, written using its Cyrillic alphabet, is the official language in the Republic of Macedonia.
In the units of local self-government where the majority of the inhabitants belong to a nationality, in addition to the Macedonian language and Cyrillic alphabet, their language and alphabet are also in official use, in a manner determined by law. In the units of local self-government where there is a considerable number of inhabitants belonging to a nationality, their language and alphabet are also in official use, in addition to the Macedonian language and Cyrillic alphabet, under conditions and in a manner determined by law.
This has been discussed before. See Talk:Republic of Macedonia/Archive10#Languages. -- Tēlex 21:02, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
Constitution of the Republic of Macedonia: Article 7 (2):
Affirmed by p. 663 of the Encyclopædia Britannica Book of the Year 2003 ( ISBN 0-85229-956-7). If Albanian is spoken by more than 20% of the populationm, it is also official according to the constitution. This is confirmed by Britannica. Please read the archives - this has all been answered; we agreed even not to have the Albanian name in the infobox so as to keep you happy. If we are to play by the book, then we should readd it. -- Tēlex 21:20, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
Член 7
На целата територија во Република Македонија и во нејзините меѓународни односи службен јазик е македонскиот јазик и неговото кирилско писмо. (You pointed this part) Друг јазик што го зборуваат најмалку 20% од граѓаните, исто така, е службен јазик и неговото писмо, (and whats the meaning of the following) како што е определено со овој член. <<<It says as it is defined bellow of this article. (Please read it slowly). Личните документи на граѓаните кои зборуваат службен јазик различен од македонскиот јазик, се издаваат на македонски јазик и неговото писмо, како и на тој јазик и неговото писмо во согласност со закон. Кој било граѓанин кој живее во единиците на локалната самоуправа во која најмалку 20% од граѓаните зборуваат службен јазик различен од македонскиот јазик, во комуникацијата со подрачните единици на министерствата, може да употреби кој било од службените јазици и неговото писмо. Подрачните единици надлежни за тие единици на локалната самоуправа одговараат на македонски јазик и неговото кирилско писмо, како и на службениот јазик и писмо што го употребува граѓанинот. Секој граѓанин во комуникација со министерствата може да употребува еден од службените јазици и неговото писмо, а министерствата одговараат на македонски јазик и неговото кирилско писмо, како и на службениот јазик писмото што го употребува граѓанинот. Во органите на државната власт во Република Македонија службен јазик различен од македонскиот јазик, може да се користи во согласност со закон. Во единиците на локалната самоуправа јазикот и писмото што го користат најмалку 20% од граѓаните е службен јазик, покрај македонскиот и неговото кирилско писмо. За употребата на јазиците и писмата на кои зборуваат помалку од 20% од граѓаните во единиците на локалната самоуправа, одлучуваат органите на единиците на локалната самоуправа. (And finaly it is defned opnly as an municipality language not a state one)
Fellas, lets not get so anti- WP:NPA. Bomac 22:19, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
I wouldn't say so, but can you make a compromise here, at en-Wiki? Can you Vlatko and Telex make a compromise? Bomac 22:24, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
Then go ahead and stop pretending you are a constitution analyst. It says clearly that 20%+ is official. It doesn't say less than official or mostly official or near-official. It says official. Now if you don't have what it takes to specify within your constitution which is the only language that has more than 20% frequency in your country, then at least don't pretend it is not so by disputable WP:OR constitutional interpretations. :NikoSilver: 23:35, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
The more languages the better. See United Kingdom, 6 languages in the Infobox *cool* :)) - FrancisTyers · 22:26, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
Should this not even be mentioned once? IE if this suddenly stops being the case, the country will significantly suffer as greece is its only major investor. # Reaper7
Greece is the first among foreign investors in FYROM, having invested a total of more than 460 million euros.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_Greece
LOL
Reaper7 ]]
Please read the articles before making requests. The source is the European Commission. If in any doubht, log on to its site. People can always write to the Commission and explain to them that they disagree... :-) Politis 15:21, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Please Luka Jačov, do not go about asking for proof about everything - or as targetting in a prejudicial manner ethnicities you may despise (I am sure you respect them all). The republic has many minorities and ethnicities because it never went to war in the 1990s trying to wipe them out. Politis 18:25, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
If we dont have proof how can we know if information is verifibal? During Balkan Wars Greeks took much of Macedonian Slav ethnic territory leaving no Greeks north from then Serbian-Greek border. Show us some proof (presence of Greek Orthodox Church, Association of Ethnic Greeks in Macedonia or similar) and then it could be put again. Sorry but this is wikipedia policy. Luka Jačov 19:30, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Also, why did you erase the fact that the "Macedonian" language has a substantial Greek influence and many words of Greek origin. This is a fact, and has been sourced at Macedonian language. Do you espouse anti-Greek sentiment - I wouldn't be surprised. -- Tēlex 19:42, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Luka, I just had a bit of an exchange with Telex and he really comes down when he thinks there are double standards, irrespective of their source (mine, yours, or the man in the moon). I think that is a positive attribute and welcome in wikipedia. Politis 19:54, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Yes Telex we've been through this before and we came to conclusion there is no Greek community in Republic of Macedonia. Joshuaproject cannot be taken as relevant and not to say quote of Greek Minister and could be serious violation of Wikipedia's NPOV policy. Also you say "historic presense". Kruševo has Vlach community which was historicly pro-Greek. I didnt found anything that says about "substantial" Greek influence. Could you gives a proof that Macedonian is influenced by Greek more then it is for example by Turkish language or that Macedonian language has more Greek influence than Bulgarian language (as sentence sounds that one of difference of Bulgarian and Macedonian is Greek influence). I said Macedonian Slavs as neutral term (they are Slavs they are Macedonians no matter if we say they Bulgarians or seperate nation). As you can see on maps of article you gave me there are no Greeks showed in area of today's Republic Macedonia but also not even near its border as maps show Greeks inhabitated only southern edge of historical Macedonia. And I should also point you up that blackmailing not only that is against wikipedia's policy and against normal deceint behaviour it also shows your lack of arguments. So until we get reliable sources we cannot have that information listed. Luka Jačov 20:57, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Also, why are you saying that "some Macedonians identify as Bulgarians". If they say they are Bulgarians, then they are Bulgarians. Period. See #Self-id. -- Tēlex 21:15, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
BTW soomeone in the FYROM government claimed in 1993 that there are between 230,000 and 270,000 "Macedonians" in Greece [22]. How come we can write that in Wikipedia, but not what the Greek minister says. Neutrality works both ways, you know. Either we say both, or none. Period. -- Tēlex 21:25, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Well if you check Egyptians article you ll see they were recorded on 1994 census. Macedonian language does not mentions that the language is "substantialy influenced by Greek" so this is clear pushing of POV. About Bulgarians it should be noted that some people that would otherwise be considered as Macedonians feel Macedonians belong to Bulgarian nation and that they are not seperate. Therefore this is more political preference then ethnical distinction and that should be noted. I dont care what you are goin to do with Macedonians in Greece you do what ever you want. Luka Jačov 22:28, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Requested by Luka Jačov. Source: Statistical Yearbook of the Republic of Macedonia 2004 (CD version)
-- FlavrSavr 02:55, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
I have looked through the archive and this appears not to have been discussed. Is there a verifiable reliable reference for the motto for Republic of Macedonia (Слобода или смрт (English: Liberty or death))? It appears to have only been valid about 100 years ago, and even then quite unofficially and by a small group of people. I'm inclined to remove it unless it can be verified. Thanks. -- zzuuzz (talk) 00:40, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Telex about the rape of "MAcedonian" land from its "rightful" owners. also i believe the Skopjan uprising took inspiration from the Greek independance struggle and used the Greek's motto. Heraklios 00:13, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Its fun to go through external links with reference to Wikipedia:External links and determine which ones should be included according to policies and to cut down on external link spam! Like a game! - FrancisTyers · 23:52, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
This map is stupid. It allocates Albanian populated areas (Tetovo, Gostivar) to Serbia. -- Tēlex 14:37, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Well I appreciate the fact that the article was reviewed officially but I still think it needs to be labeled. My reasons are that in the article there are still far too many "facts" to be disputed as representing a certain viewpoint on the matter in question. I feel biased from the Bulgarian viewpoint so I would refrain from editing bits but I would insist that there remains a warning that the article could contain statements whose neutrality is disputable. I deliberatly avoid going into details because there is far too much talking going on already.
These are useful to understand geopolitics and international perceptions, and the reasons and change of these perceptions through time. Perhaps a corresponding section should be created in these articles.
I'll start with a quote.
«ἡ κυβέρνησις τῶν Η.Π.Α. θεωρεῖ, ὅτι συζήτησις περὶ «Μακεδονικοῦ ἔθνους, Μακεδονικῆς πατρίδος καὶ Μακεδονικῆς ἐθνικῆς συνειδήσεως» ἰσοῦται μὲ δημαγωγίαν, ποὺ δὲν ὑποκρύπτει ἐθνικὴν ἢ πολιτικὴν πραγματικότητα, ἀλλὰ ὑποκρύπτει ἐπεκτατικὰς διαθέσεις κατὰ τῆς Ἑλλάδος».
"The United States government holds, that any discussion of a Macedonian nation, Macedonian homeland, or Macedonian national identity, to be demagoguery, that does not hold ethnic or political reality, but expansionary attitudes towards Greece."
- Edward Stettinius, U.S. Secretary of State, December 26, 1944
http://www.sartzetakis.gr/points/makedonia16.html
OK, just saw that wiki puts everything in bold. Politis 11:59, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Elections tend to act as a fuse for violent inter-ethnic and cross-political confrontations, occasionally resulting in deaths. The situation is seen as seriously tarnishing the international reputation of the country. The government in Skoplje hopes to uphold EU and NATO standards with a view to joining them, but has to contend with un-democratic procedures. In the July 2006 elections, NATO warned it over pre-election violence or risk delays in the country's ambitions to join the military alliance. NATO and E.U. officials see the elections as a key test of Macedonian ambitions of joining both organizations after local elections in March 2005 were marred by irregularities. NATO intervention in 2001 helped prevent ethnic conflict developing into full-scale civil war. For the 2006 Parliamentary Elections, the international community sent 6,000 observers to monitor electoral procedures. [24] [25], AP and other agencies. The 2006 electoral violence included clashes between Albanian Macedonians [26].
Done. I hope that everything's OK with the summary. I really have no time to expand the Macedonian election article at the moment. -- FlavrSavr 01:03, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
I wonder why the article doesnt mention the Antifascist Assembly of The National Liberation of Macedonia (Antifashistichko Sobranie na Narodnoto oslobododuvanje na Makedonija- ASNOM) held on the 2nd of August 1944 (as a symbolical continuation from The Ilinden Uprising and the Krushevo Republic from the 2nd of August 1903) when this state was in fact formally created? Let me remind you and I will cite sources if needed that ASNOM was recognized by the Allies (USA, UK, USSR) and foreign missions have visited the People's-Liberation army (Partisans) and attended the ASssembly itself.(
I mean, people, you may dispute this and that, the ethnicity, the language, the name of the state and so on and so on, but some basic information on this subject is missing here in this article and Im talking about FACTS that all the sides will agree on. The article only says something like (not an exact but rather an ironical quote): the war ended tito became president he said "from now on u will be called Macedonia". Fullstop. Nothing is mentioned about the ideological basis for the creation of the state, about the continuity with the struggle for "autonomous Macedonia" of
VMRO in the past, btw the veteran from Ilinden 1903 Panko Brashnarov was the first speaker of that above mentioned historical Assembly on the 2nd of August 1944 and some of the members of the government incl. former VMRO and Ilinden revolutionaries such as Pavel Shatev for example. Tito did help the whole thing, but he was certainly not the initiator and also later he actually persecuted those who demanded more or complete independence of that Macedonian state from Yugoslavia.
This article may give a wrong impression to uninformed readers that the state was created on the 8th of September 1991?! It only gives the 8th of September as the beginning of the whole thing, while disregarding the continuity with the previous Socialist republic of Macedonia which existed all the time as a STATE with some degree of souvereinity withing Yugoslavia, with capital Skopje, flag, coat of arms, own government, national institutions, Academy of Sciences and Arts etc. All the time during the existing of Tito's Yugoslavia, Republic of Macedonia existed (the formal name doesnt matter, People's Republic of Macedonia, then Socialist Republic of Macedonia etc.). You may claim that it was "an artificial nation that was once Bulgarian but suddenly became "Macedonian", it doesnt matter, adding some simple coldblooded FACTS is needed, how this south european state was formed is among the most important. If Greece for example can claim continuity regardless of the changes to the political system (monarchy, republic, again monarchy, again republic, metaxas dictatorship 1936-1941, military junta '67 and what not), also today's Republic of Macedonia is a continuation of what was created at ASNOM and the struggle during the VMRO/Ilinden period and
Krste Misirkov , who who was the first who began seriously propagating "macedonian nation", separate "macedonian language", separate "Macedonian church", codification of the language and phonetic alphabet back in late 19th-early 20th century.
At least, these things can be added with a note that this is the official point of view of Republic of macedonia regarding her history, Im sure that even ppl who would opposed it, they may be interested to learn about it.
This article is written in a so simplified way, also the external link section is so empty?! Why no one puts for example
The official website of the Archive of republic of Macedonia. I mean if this wikipedia article is about RoM/FYROM I suppose that IT IS ABSOLUTELY NORMAL to have a link to a RoM/FYROM website with RoM/FYROM POV about history and politics.--
Vbb-sk-mk 03:53, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Should it not be mentioned that unless FYROM's name is changed from the title page's version, Greece will Veto FYROM's entry into the EU and the country will be even more isloated? The article is written as if that is the permanent name and there is no chance of a change.. Reaper7 17:45, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
Yesterday translated from Greek so we can all read.
http://www.phantis.com/news/?newsID=20060830130047 Reaper7 20:23, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
It says that most people are adherents of the Macedonian Orthodox Church. I share a neutral POV and would very much like the MOC officially recognized - but isn't this contradicting with the Serbian Orthodox Church. Also, what about atheists and agnostics? They're always a majority in former Communist states. -- HolyRomanEmperor 12:56, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
I think this article is very ambiguous with very little reference. When you read it you get the impression that there was no difference between Bulgarian or Byzanthine rule, i.e. it was not part of Bulgaria. This cannot have been true because under Samuil the capital of Bulgaria was Ohrid (which is not mentioned,) there is no point making a capital in a foreign land so obviously this region was an integral part of Bulgaria. Also, it is not mentioned the macedonian music which is popular in Bulgaria and all over the world and is not in Macedonian but in Bulgarian dialect language. I notice this sentence "Harsh rule by the occupying forces encouraged many Macedonians to support the Communist Partisan resistance movement of Josip Broz Tito." - it's not very clear which occupying forces and this sounds like an opinion not facts. So basically, I think this article needs to expand more on the History - it seems like there was no history during ottoman rule which is not true at all - there are many documents about the liberation movement and the famous liberation leaders like Jane Sandanski, also VMRO should be mentioned as well. -- Edi
Macedonia is probably the most disputed region in the world - I apologize to the Israelis and the Palestinians but there issue is like a fight between 3-year-olds compared to the macedonian matters.I am bulgarian and like all bulgarians I support our version because it is the right version.Don't put us aside and don't neglect our role and contributions , because they are also the most crucial ! - BraikoT
Some points:
I understand that each nation tries to make their nation as good as possible on this site. However i feel reality is being ever so gently sedated with pretentious dribble.
All in all I find the article like someone trying to butter a bad situation. The country's future is uncertain yet the underlying problems seem sugared over. Reaper7 23:29, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
By an anon:
Next time don't erase them if they are in the wrong place,try moving them yourself since you are so unbiased.
"We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century ... we are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians."
A guideline on whether or not to italicize Cyrillics (and all scripts other than Latin) is being debated at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (text formatting)#Italics in Cyrillic and Greek characters. - - Evv 16:15, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Scroll down to the group photo - http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/articles/. Also have a read of this article from the Time archives http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,796967,00.html
If someone is Macedonian he has to speek greek greek the language of Hellenic nation the nation that Alexander the Great make and includes only Greeks.
This does NOT include trade embargos ect, just a basic display first for you why the phrase 'good relations' is what we call a lie in english:
The indeterminate status of the Republic of Macedonia's name arises from a long-running dispute with Greece, which criticizes the use of what is considered to be Greek name and symbols. The main points of the dispute are:
The naming issue was "parked" in a compromise agreed at the United Nations in 1993. However, Greece refused to grant diplomatic recognition to the Republic and imposed an economic blockade that lasted until the flag and constitutional issues were resolved in 1995.
Greek concerns over the name arise from a number of factors:
The naming issue has not yet been resolved, but it has effectively reached a stalemate. In 1993, the United Nations obtained Greece's acquiesence to the admission of the Republic of Macedonia by adopting the provisional name of "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" or "FYROM" [1] (поранешна Југословенска Република Македонија - ПЈРМ) [2] However, much to the annoyance of the Greek government, the compromise is wearing increasingly thin, as most states have recognised the country as the "Republic of Macedonia" instead. These include the permanent UN Security Council members of the United States, Russia, and the People's Republic of China, and the former Yugoslavian republics of Serbia, Montenegro, Croatia, Bosnia-Herzegovina and Slovenia. In addition, the Republic of Macedonia's other neighbours, Bulgaria and Albania, have also recognised the nation by its constitutional name.
This compromise name is always used in relations when states not recognizing the constitutional name are parties. This is due to the fact that the UN refers to the country only as FYROM, although all UN member-states (and the UN as a whole) have agreed to accept any final agreement resulting from negotiations between the two countries.
The dispute continues to excite passions in both nations, but in practice the two countries deal pragmatically with each other. Economic relations and cooperation have resumed since 1995 to such an extent that Greece is now considered one of the republic's most important foreign economic partners and investors.[3]
Within Greece, many Greeks reject any use of the word "Macedonia" to describe the Republic of Macedonia, instead calling it ΠΓΔΜ, the Greek version of FYROM, or Skopje and its inhabitants Skopians (Greek: Skopiani), after the country's capital. This metonymic name is not used by non-Greeks, and many inhabitants of the Republic regard it as insulting. Greek official sources sometimes use the term "Slavomacedonian" to refer to the Republic's inhabitants and its language (even the US State Department has used the term side by side with Macedonian, albeit having them both in quotation marks [4]). The term "Macedonian Slavs" is another term sometimes used to refer to the ethnic Macedonians by non-Greeks. A number of news agencies have used it (although the BBC recently discontinued its use on the grounds that people had alleged it was offensive), and it is used by the Encarta Encyclopedia. The Macedonian language translation of Macedonian Slavs - Македонски Словени - has been occasionally used in the past by Macedonian sources, and the term is used in Krste Misirkov's work On Macedonian Issues.
The United Nations set a target of September 13, 2002 for reaching a solution to the issue. This date passed without any solution being found and it is unclear how the issue will be resolved, given the apparently irreconcilable positions of the two sides. The Republic of Macedonia says that it will not abandon the name "Macedonia", while Greece says that it will not accept any permanent name that includes "Macedonia".
The March 2004 application of the Republic of Macedonia for membership of the European Union may help to speed efforts to find a solution; in a meeting of 14 September 2004, the EU noted that the difference over the name of the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia still persists and encouraged parties to find a mutually acceptable solution, but stated that it is not part of the conditions for EU accession.
In 2005, Matthew Nimetz, UN Special Representative for the country, suggested using "Republika Makedonija-Skopje" [sic] for official purposes. Greece did not accept the proposal outright, but characterized it as "a basis for constructive negotiations". Prime Minister Vlado Buckovski rejected the proposal and counterproposed a "double formula" where the international community uses "Republic of Macedonia" and Greece uses "former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia". [5][6]
In October 2005 Nimetz made a new proposal. It proposes that the name “Republika Makedonija” should be used by the 106 countries that have recognized the country under that name. It proposes, also, that Greece should use the formula “Republika Makedonija – Skopje”, while the international institutions and organizations should use the name “Republika Makedonia” in Latin alphabet transcription. While the government of the Republic of Macedonia accepted the proposal as a good basis for solving the dispute, Greece rejected the proposal as unacceptable.[7]
[edit] Flag issue The former flag of Republic of Macedonia (used from 1992-1995) Enlarge The former flag of Republic of Macedonia (used from 1992-1995)
Republic of Macedonia's first post-independence flag caused a major controversy when it was unveiled. The use of the Vergina Sun on the flag offended Greeks, as the symbol is being associated with King Philip II of Macedon and by extension with his son, Alexander the Great. The Greek viewpoint was summed up in an FAQ circulated on the Internet in the late 1990s:
The Vergina Sun, the emblem of Philip's dynasty, symbolizes the birth of our nation. It was the first time (4th century BC) that the Greek mainland (city-states and kingdoms) with the same language, culture, and religion were united against the enemies of Asia in one league. At the same time the fractured Greek world grew conscious of its unity. And, in this sense, we have never been apart since then. The "Sun" was excavated in Greece in 1978, and it is sacred to us. [8]
The symbol was removed from the flag under an agreement reached between the Republic of Macedonia and Greece in September 1995. The Republic agreed to meet a number of Greek demands for changes to its national symbols and constitution, while Greece agreed to establish diplomatic relations with the Republic and end its economic blockade.
Constitutional issue
The Republic of Macedonia's first post-independence constitution, adopted on November 17, 1991 included a number of clauses that Greece interpreted as promoting secessionist sentiment among the Slavophone population of northern Greece, and making irredentist claims on Greek territory. Article 49 of the constitution caused particular concern. It read:
In the Greek view, this was effectively a license for the Republic to interfere in Greek internal affairs. The offending articles were removed under the 1995 agreement between the two sides.
From here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_the_Republic_of_Macedonia#Greece
Reaper7 20:17, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
I have read the article and I was amazed by the use of the word Macedonian. There is an open name dispute that is not a matter of foreign relations or of how many countries will recognize the small country with the name it wants.
The problem is very important and very real. I tried to find a good analogy in the comments by I was not able to find something close. Let me state my own analogy.
How would an american (US) feel if mexico was renamed by it's own government as Indians?
How would someone living in Norway, or Sweden, or Denmark feel if a new country was created in the region and the name it chose would be "The Vikings"?
It is clear that the problem Greeks have is more than historical. It is a problem of human rights (of the Greeks is macedonia), it is an economic problem (commerce and trading confusion) and finally a major historic distorion.
Please comment on what I state below.
By
Everydaypanos 12:20, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
1. What is the problem?
The choice of the name Macedonia by FYROM directly raises the issue of usurpation of the cultural heritage of a neighbouring country. The name constitutes the basis for staking an exclusive rights claim over the entire geographical area of Macedonia. More specifically, to call only the Slavo-Macedonians Macedonians monopolizes the name for the Slavo-Macedonians and creates semiological confusion, whilst violating the human rights and the right to self-determination of Greek Macedonians. The use of the name by FYROM alone may also create problems in the trade area, and subsequently become a potential springboard for distorting reality, and a basis for activities far removed from the standards set by the European Union and more specifically the clause on good neighbourly relations. The best example of this is to be seen in the content of school textbooks in the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia.
For the first time in their history, in recognition of the problem the United Nations (Security Council and General Assembly) gave the new state the temporary name of Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM).
2. What caused the problem?
The problem arose when in 1944 the then Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia under Tito formed a federal state from scratch, to which it gave the name of a large neighbouring administrative region of Greece - Macedonia. The present-day independent state has evolved from the calculations and steps taken in the 40s.
3. How has the problem evolved?
In 1992 the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia tabled an application to join the United Nations under the name of Republic of Macedonia. On 7th April 1993 the Security Council noted that although the country fulfilled the criteria for accession to the UN, there was nonetheless a dispute over its name, which needed to be resolved in the interests of maintaining peace and good neighbourliness in the region. The country was consequently accepted under the temporary name of Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia.
Security Council Resolution 817/7.4.1993 officially states that the difference over the name of the State needs to be resolved in the interest of the maintenance of peaceful and good-neighbourly relations in the region and calls upon the parties to work together for a speedy solution to their dispute. The process for solving this dispute is indicated in Security Council Resolution 817/7.4.1993 and Resolution 845/18.6.1993, which calls upon the parties to continue their bilateral talks under the auspices of the UN Secretary-General with the objective of solving outstanding bilateral issues as soon as possible. Also, on 8th April 1993, the General Assembly unanimously accepted the accession of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia to the United Nations with this name. Consequently, both the Security Council and the General Assembly recognised the validity of the Greek arguments on the name issue.
On 13th September 1995, Greece and FYROM signed an Interim Agreement which constituted the point of departure for normalisation of their relations, with the only pending issue being that of the name. According to the Interim Agreement, the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia has officially accepted that the name of the State is a subject of bilateral negotiations with Greece, as provided for by the two Security Council Resolutions, in other words 817/93 and 845/93, and Article 5.1 of the Interim Agreement. It is therefore clear that the object of the exercise is to replace the temporary international name of Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia with a permanent name acceptable to both parties.
4. Why has the issue not been settled so far?
Over the past decade the two countries have many times been on the brink of reaching a solution. Unfortunately, FYROMs intransigence and more specifically that of the present government has not enabled us to reach a mutually acceptable solution.
5. Does Greece maybe feel threatened by a small country such as the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia?
There is no question of a military threat to Greece by the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. On the contrary, cooperation between the two neighbouring countries is developing in many sectors. The fact, however, that the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia insists on achieving exclusive use of the name Macedonia, or Democracy of Macedonia on the one hand, is not in accordance with the respective UN Resolutions (Security Council Resolutions 817/93 and 845/93) and, on the other hand, is directed against the cultural heritage and historical identity of the Greeks. The visible risk of future destabilisation in the region should therefore not be ignored. Moreover, since the Ohrid Agreement, FYROM has changed its constitutional form and no longer sees itself, as foreseen in the 1991 Constitution, as the state of the Macedonians.
6. Will FYROMs European prospects help settle the issue?
It is a good opportunity for settling the issue, since good neighbourly relations are a requirement of states wanting to join the European Union and do not square with the FYROM Slavo-Macedonians insistence in standing by their intransigent and negative stance towards efforts to resolve the issue.
7. Does recognition of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia by the United States under the name of Democracy of Macedonia make it more difficult to solve the dispute?
The United States recognise the need for a mutually acceptable solution within the United Nations framework, irrespective of the reasoning that led to their unilateral recognition. As they have repeated on many occasions, the United States support Mr. Nimetz efforts.
8. What is the current state of play?
For the first time on 29th March, the UN Secretary-Generals Special Envoy Mr. Nimetz tabled a global proposal for finding a mutually acceptable solution to the name issue. Mr. Nimetz proposes that for international use the name Republika Makedonija-Skopje should be used in untranslated form. This name would be valid for all UN bodies, and the UN will propose to other international organisations and states that they also adopt it for official international use. On 8th April, Greece announced that she accepted the Nimetz proposal as a basis for negotiations despite the fact that there were many points in the proposal which needed to be clarified and amended. The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, on the other hand, rejected the proposal and insisted on a double name.
On 25 April, 2005, for the first time in many years, the Conclusions of the E.U. General Affairs Council referred to recent developments on the issue of the name of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia as follows: The Council noted recent developments concerning the dispute as to the name of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia and, in particular, all of the ideas put forward by the Special Representative of the Secretary General of the United Nations, whose efforts it supports. The Council encouraged Greece and the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia to intensify their efforts with a view to finding a negotiated and mutually acceptable solution within the framework of United Nations Security Council Resolutions 817/1993 and 845/1993 as quickly as possible.
On 8 October, 2005, Mr. Nimetz presented a new proposal, the contents of which have not been made public. FYROM initially accepted this new proposal. Greece, however, declared it unacceptable as it adopted FYROMs position.
Greece continues to support the procedure stipulated in UN Resolution 813/93, stating her readiness to reach a jointly acceptable solution on the name issue.
Greece has demonstrated her desire to reach a solution that will lead to the full normalisation of bilateral relations, facilitate the course of her neighbour towards the Euro-Atlantic institutions, and consolidate stability and cooperation in our region, which would be conducive to solving the issue of Kosovo. Greece has also made it clear that there is no question of her neighbour acceding either to the European Union or to NATO under the name Republic of Macedonia.
Do Macedonia stil have conscription?
Nope. Its now vuluntary/paid army. (Or whatever its called.)