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Although soccerbase says Spurs have won 4 League Cup ties against Arsenal, in actual fact they have only won two - on 04/11/80 and 08/02/87 - both of them 1-0; these can be checked by using the form
here. I've corrected the figures in the table and restored the total number of Spurs wins to 49.
Qwghlm 23:08, September 6, 2005 (UTC)
The suggestion that the article on St. Totteringham's Day should be merged into the North London Derby article is interesting. The two are undeniably linked but I think the concept of St. Totteringham's Day is strong enough for it to have an article of its own. Jack White —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jackwhite ( talk • contribs) 14:16, July 31, 2006 (UTC).
I believe the St. Totteringham's Day article borders on non-sense in the first place and would like to see the criteria under which it qualifies for inclusion in wikipedia at all. Timb0h 13:36, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
"St Tottering's Day" is a fatuous web concept created by a small number of modern day internet based Arsenal fans. It has no real significance in the history of this fixture and only a small portion of one of the team's support has knowledge of it. It should not have it's own heading let alone several paragraphs.
The Crossing the divide section reports on players who have played for both clubs, but not on players who have played for both sides in the derby. That more specific infomation should be added if anyone has the details. jnestorius( talk) 22:30, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Why is this page about two English teams using US dates? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by IrishCheeseMaker ( talk • contribs) 23:44, January 31, 2007.
I've removed Kevin Stead from the list of players that have played for both clubs. It appears that www.arsenal.com has mixed up Kevin & Michael (Mickey) Stead. Kevin was a Tottenham player but never appeared in the first team. He did, however, play for Arsenal's first team. Mickey played 14 games for Tottenham's first team and was never an Arsenal player at any point in his career. Reference books such as Barry Hugman's Football League Players' Records and Rothmans Football Yearbook confirm this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Goonerak ( talk • contribs) 12:10, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
Hi. I think its time to discuss this subject. Personally I can't see a problem why a high scoring match cannot be included, they are all notable in their own way and make interesting reading. Which these pages are all about. Any thoughts please. Northmetpit ( talk) 08:47, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
25 Dec 1911 Football League First Division A 0–5 07 May 1927 Football League First Division A 4–0 20 Oct 1934 Football League First Division H 5–1 06 Mar 1935 Football League First Division A 6–0 02 Sep 1944 Football League South (World War 2) A 0–4 22 Feb 1958 Football League First Division H 4–4 26 Aug 1961 Football League First Division A 3–4 06 Oct 1962 Football League First Division A 4–4 15 Oct 1963 Football League First Division H 4–4 23 Dec 1978 Football League First Division A 5–0 04 Apr 1983 Football League First Division A 0-5 26 Dec 1983 Football League First Division A 4–2
The recent 4-4 game deserves inclusion because it's been an exceptional season for Tottenham, their worst start ever, their possible relegation from the premier league which would have been thought unthinkable, and it could be a turning point. And the fact it was the order of the goals and the manner of them rather than simply the quantity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.96.151.68 ( talk) 15:15, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
Can we have a full list of results like in the artcicles on the Manchester and Merseyside derbies?
Honour | Tottenham Hotspur Year(s) | Arsenal Year(s) |
---|---|---|
Premier League Champions |
1998, 2002, 2004 | |
Premier League Runners-up |
1999, 2000, 2001, 2003, 2005 | |
Football League Champions |
1951, 1961 | 1931, 1933, 1934, 1935, 1938, 1948, 1953, 1971, 1989, 1991 |
Football League Runners-up |
1922, 1952, 1957, 1963 | 1926, 1932, 1973 |
FA Cup Winners |
1901, 1921, 1961, 1962, 1967, 1981, 1982, 1991 | 1930, 1936, 1950, 1972, 1979, 1993, 1998, 2002, 2003, 2005 |
FA Cup Runners-up |
1987 | 1927, 1932, 1932, 1972, 1978, 1980, 2001 |
FA Cup semi finalists |
||
UEFA Cup Winners' Cup Winners |
1963 | 1994 |
UEFA Cup Winners' Cup Runners-up |
1980, 1995 | |
UEFA Cup Winners |
1972, 1984 | |
UEFA Cup Runners-up |
1974 | 2000 |
Inter-Cities Fairs Cup Winners |
1970 | |
Old Second Division Champions |
1920, 1950 | |
Old Second Division Runners-up |
1909, 1933 | 1904 |
League Cup Winners |
1971, 1973, 1999, 2008 | 1987, 1993 |
League Cup Runners-up |
1982, 2002 | 1968, 1969, 1988, 2007 |
League Cup semi finalists |
1978, 1983, 1996, 1998, 2004, 2006, 2008 | |
FA Charity Shield Winners |
||
FA Charity Shield Runners-up |
||
FA Youth Cup Winners |
Regardless of which way the moderators decide this argument the section on St Totteringham's day is atrociously written. Particularly paras 2 and 4. If it has to stay at least let someone who can write edit it properly.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Unreturnable ( talk • contribs) 00:14, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
New comment: user: unreturnable
Saebhiar. However well-researched your piece on St Totteringham's day it seems to me it does not merit inclusion at its current length. The word count is almost as long as the entire list and description of all the major clashes in this fixture over the last 100 years. Neither is it worth 50% of the words detailing the entire history of the rivalry.
The main issue with the concept is that it is a total internet neologism. It is rooted in the attitude that the start of the Premiership was the start of football whereas the whole point of this article is the huge history behind this fixture.
To tackle a couple of your points - I don't think that a mention in a club programme merits 450 words on Wikipedia. The Arsenal Soccer School gets mentioned in the Arsenal programme far more frequently that this concept but I don't see an article on Wikipedia or indeed even a mention on the entirety of the main Arsenal page.
Similarly, 1,500 (or even 10,000) Google results is an absolutely miniscule amount in internet terms, which given it is an entirely internet-based concept shows that it has not really permeated the consciousness of Arsenal fans in general (a search for Arsenal Soccer School returns more than 500,000 results). 'Flapianski' - the nickname many fans across the country have adopted for the Arsenal 'goalkeeper' Lucasz Fabianski has more than 3,000 Google results but no one is claiming is should be on his Wikipedia page (which incidentally has fewer words in its text that you believe should be devoted to St Totteringham's Day).
If Spurs fans set up Arsenalwithoutatrophycounter.com - an internet clock counting the days, weeks and months since Arsenal won a trophy it would not merit inclusion here and neither really does this given it is a concept only endorsed by Arsenal fans who began supporting the club during its years of success. Genuine fans who lived through the darker periods of the club's history would not have bothered with such a fatuous concept.
It perhaps deserves a mention, maybe two lines, and no more. I see the moderators have locked the page - I am sure common sense will prevail when it is re-opened.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Unreturnable ( talk • contribs) 12:29, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
I know this is probably a delicate issue with Spurs fans and they'd probably like to keep the whole Totteringham's day concept quiet. But the fact is, it has become too big to be ignored any longer. A simple Google search on the subject will pull 1,500 pages and it has even been mentioned on arsenal official day programmes.
It is becoming an Arsenal tradition that's relevant to the north London rivalry this article is about. I understand some people might not like it but you can't just un-invent it or pretend it doesn't exist.
I wrote the section and I tried to keep it as short and neutral as possible. I am not a troll or a schoolkid trying to aggravate people. I'm just a middle-aged, reasonable guy, trying to add something interesting to an article.
I've spent quite some time researching and writing that section. If some people feel it shouldn't be included, let's discuss it and hopefully we can reach a consensus. In the meantime, let's not just delete it without so much as a by your leave as someone has already done. I'll just put it back on again. You'll only be wasting your time and mine.
Thank you. Saebhiar Adishatz 01:23, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
Its still mathematically possible for Spurs to finish above Arsenal. 7 points difference with 9 points to play for. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.34.249.149 ( talk) 14:43, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
I would say leave it alone as it does have the references for it's inclusion (as Saebhiar states) along with including the background and recent events. If tottenham fans come up with their own version about this or something else, then it should be included as well to be balanced (and to appease tottenham fans calling for this section's blood) but since they don't, the section should be left as it is untill such a time arises.
The C of E. God Save The Queen! (
talk)
16:50, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
Alright, I think we can come to a compromise here. I propose that we reduce the section on this page to a brief mention (couple of sentences) and move the bulk of it to the
Arsenal_F.C._supporters page, which is probably more suited to it since it's an Arsenal supporters thing after all. Everybody cool with that?
Saebhiar
Adishatz
02:14, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
Seems fair to me. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Unreturnable (
talk •
contribs)
08:48, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
Moved the bulk of the article to Arsenal_F.C._supporters also found and added refs from Sun, Mirror, Daily Mail and BBC Sport's websites. Happy St. Totteringham's day everyone! Saebhiar Adishatz 00:10, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
This whole little section should be removed wholesale. It is a complete and utter fabrication, and is only being kept present on the article due to the antics of Arsenal fans, The C of E and Saebhiar. There is no such thing as 'St Totteringham's Day', outside of the bounds of obscure Arsenal fan forums. A typical Arsenal fan won't even know of the concept - and to be frank - it undermines the whole history of this iconic fixture. References from Facebook fan pages and Arsenal forums cannot be considered viable citations. 77.75.110.130 ( talk) 09:24, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
I've added a caveat on the article pointing out that both celebrations are a fan thing and neither are recognised officialy by the clubs (yet). Saebhiar Adishatz 15:18, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
No comments I note, since The C of E got the page protected. No discussion since then. Very poor. Clearly reverting each others edits isn't the way forward. I state again that this fatuous bumpf has no right whatsoever to be on this page. End of. It has *nothing* to do with the North London Derby as a fixture, and isn't notable in its own right. Revert, revert, revert! Captmonkey ( talk) 10:04, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
I have asked, multiple times, for verifiable references (eg. not Facebook pages, or Arsenal forums) to this day *before* the end of this past season. There have been *none* If I could make it flash and blink in bright red, I would. Captmonkey ( talk) 20:59, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
Just because it's being mentioned this season and has origins back to 2002 doesn't make it any less notible than if say a newly founded amateur club gains national recognition. I would also appreciate it that you didn't use blasphemy. The C of E. God Save The Queen! ( talk) 06:46, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
NOTES FOR ADMIN/EDITORS regarding edit war:
This page became protected by admin a week ago. The protection stems from my reversions of The C of E and a co-conspirator's edits on this page, which continually try to establish a fatuous nonsense celebration day that allegedly all Arsenal fans celebrate - St Totteringham's day. By its inclusion on Wikipedia since early April, it has been picked up on by a couple of online news reports - as Arsenal and Tottenham were both vying for 3rd place until the last day of the season this year - who have believed what they've read on Wikipedia and have mentioned (exceptionally briefly) this so-called day. These mentions have given The C of E and his cohorts the belief that this is now grounds for inclusion on Wikipedia. It has become a self-fulfilling prophecy, as far as they are concerned.
I have asked for any verifiable references to this day *before* the last week or two of the last football season - and they have been unable/unwilling to come up with any - other than Facebook pages and Arsenal forums - my position is that *if* this day has really been celebrated by thousands of fans around the world - then, surely there would have been a mention of it somewhere verifiable before now? Allegedly, its been an on-going celebration since 2002 - yet there's no mention of it in any news source, other than in the last couple of weeks of this past season - a time when the nonsense was available on Wikipedia.
This isn't simply "You're wrong, I'm right!"/"No YOU'RE wrong, I'M right!"; as The C of E identifies as an Arsenal fan on his user page, as do his co-conspirators - hardly unbiased, balanced editorial - it appears to be a co-ordinated case of a couple of Arsenal fans trying to legitimatise a so-called celebration dreamed up on some Arsenal fan forum by having its inclusion on Wikipedia. I'm sure that a handful of Arsenal fans who are internet users and who frequent Arsenal forums will have heard of such a day; but what fraction of the 60,000 that turn up at Arsenal home games? Or what fraction of the potentially millions of fans around the world? This is not notable, not verifiable and not worthy of inclusion.
In addition to this, all reasoning with The C of E seems to be utterly, utterly fruitless as he appears to disregard any facts or contrary information given to him and appears unwilling and unable to engage in meaningful dialogue.
Can I ask that you review the edit log of the page, and in particular the this talk page (the long section above beginning 'St Totteringham's day'), and offer your thoughts. Thank you. Captmonkey ( talk) 09:30, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
For crying out loud, St Totteringham's day is mentioned in a 2007 Arsenal-Villa official match programme. And has been referenced in national newspapers since, what more do you want? It's not like we dedicated a whole article to it, it's just 2 lines at the bottom of a secondary article, why are we still fighting this retarded crusade?!? St Totteringham's day exists, I didn't make it up, C of E didn't make it up. It's aliiiive! Accept it and move on. Saebhiar Adishatz 04:41, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
I can't help but notice that all dialogue ceases when admins lock the page - Very poor. Captmonkey ( talk) 22:56, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
Truly, truly depressing. A whole month and neither offender offers any citations or references, and instead - one regurgitates the nonsense verbatim. And this user seeks Adminship!! Incredible. Captmonkey ( talk) 13:27, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
I'll ignore all the NPA stuff and focus on the content:
St Totteringham's Day: This is now (or was before it was reverted) sourced to four sources, namely the Sun, the Daily Mail, the Daily Mirror, and a very short mention in a BBC live update. All of these sources appeared in May 2010. Before May 2010, this page was sourced to clearly unreliable sources. It was thus my initial view that we had circular sourcing here. However, other articles exist from as early as 2005. [1] There may be a bit of self-fulfilling here - I can't say for sure whether some or all of the news outlets have used wikipedia as a reference - but I think there is enough to be confident that not all of the verification is circular sourcing.
St Hotspurs' Day: This seems to be entirely unverified and should be deleted.
There is then the issue of presentation. Even at its best, the sources only discuss this "day" in passing mentions. Therefore I don't think it is significant enough to warrant a separate section of the article, and there's not enough sourced content to support any more than a sentence or two. I therefore suggest that the "day" be mentioned briefly in an existing section of the article (eg "History").
Cheers -- Mkativerata ( talk) 20:49, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
I can't fix the capitalization because the page is protected. Admins, please! Chris the speller ( talk) 15:11, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
Added to 'Crossing The Divide: Arsenal, then Tottenham' db1987db ( talk) 13:58, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
I added a section on fans since it seems to me that fierce, local sporting rivalry is even more about the fans than it is about the teams / clubs. Shelfsider ( talk) 01:40, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
Since my restoration of the mention of St Hotspur Day was undone by C of E on the grounds of a lack of source, I have provided five separate sources. These sources might not be deemed to be recognized or reliable by some. However, the whole point of both St Hotspur Day and St Totteringham Day is that they are fan inventions. Therefore, virtually all mention of them will inevitably be restricted to fan websites and publications. The fact that a mere handful of more recognized sources have very recently mentioned St Totteringham Day in no way validates it more than St Hotspur Day. As Captmonkey has pointed out, these more recognized sources would have sourced their information from this very page. And this page only ever mentioned St Totteringham Day because some Arsenal fan decided to post it here (without citing any initial reliable sources - for the simple reason that, at the time, there weren't any). I don't doubt that these same recognized sources would have picked up on St Hotspur Day if it too had been mentioned on this page. So I repeat my earlier position on the matter. Neither St Hotspur Day nor St Totteringham Day belong on a page such as this. But if one must be mentioned, then the other must too - especially since the notion of St Hotspur Day has been in existence for considerably longer than the notion of St Totteringham Day and was, in fact, the inspiration behind St Totteringham Day*. It would be nonsensical to argue otherwise. Any further mention of one and simultaneous omission of the other would invalidate this page as not being written from a neutral point of view. *The term "St Hotspur Day" was first coined in the former fanzine, The Spur, in the first published edition after the 1991 FA Cup semi final. Shelfsider ( talk) 13:56, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
The Tottenahm 5-1 Arsenal sounds awfully bias.
Why can't we include the 4-4 draw and the Arsenal 4-1 Totteham just last month? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.104.143.38 ( talk) 22:38, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
Yes, The Carling cup thrasing of 4-1 should be added. It seems Arsenal will win that. The match reports seem extremely bias though, there is a constant shot at Arsenal in them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.27.89.96 ( talk) 14:35, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
I saw that there was a revision taking out the portion of the history section which gave synopses of games from about 2010 to 2013 and then it was put back in. Perhaps there should be a "recent history" section where little snippets regarding recent games are. Otherwise, I don't believe that so much of the 100+ year history between the clubs should be focused on games between 2010 and 2013. Frankly, I think the only ones that deserve any mention are the 2-0 to 3-2 at the Emirates, because it was Spurs first win there and the first in a long time over the big clubs. And Arsenal's 5-2 win in the 2011-12 season, because they were down 2-0 and because it was the first step in erasing a 10-point lead that Spurs had in the table. (The latter fact isn't even mentioned in the article.) The other games weren't particularly noteworthy. All these games are noteworthy because it's the North London Derby. But there is nothing that makes the other games particularly noteworthy and there's no reason those games should be listed over others or take such a huge amount of the 100+ year history between these clubs. Dawindler ( talk) 01:37, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
"Arsenal play their home games at the Emirates Stadium, while Tottenham Hotspur play their home games at White Hart Lane. However, the latter will play its UEFA Champions League home games at Wembley Stadium for the 2016/17 campaign."
Is there a reason why this is included? Doesn't seem very relevant to a page about a rivalry that occurs in the Prem—unless they eventually do meet in the Champions League, the point about Wembley seems rather tangential. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.73.54.58 ( talk) 21:43, 5 November 2016 (UTC)
The numbers given in the article are confusing. Why start with 1909 for the count in the stats section? If we are talking about matches between the two teams, then it goes further back than that, and if we are talking about matches between the two team after Arsenal moved to north London (i.e. when matches between them can be properly called North London derby), then it's later. That their first Football League meeting started in 1909 is neither here nor there. Hzh ( talk) 11:45, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
There still seem to be a number of discrepancies in the figures in the articles, someone needs to check them. Hzh ( talk) 15:44, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
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Although soccerbase says Spurs have won 4 League Cup ties against Arsenal, in actual fact they have only won two - on 04/11/80 and 08/02/87 - both of them 1-0; these can be checked by using the form
here. I've corrected the figures in the table and restored the total number of Spurs wins to 49.
Qwghlm 23:08, September 6, 2005 (UTC)
The suggestion that the article on St. Totteringham's Day should be merged into the North London Derby article is interesting. The two are undeniably linked but I think the concept of St. Totteringham's Day is strong enough for it to have an article of its own. Jack White —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jackwhite ( talk • contribs) 14:16, July 31, 2006 (UTC).
I believe the St. Totteringham's Day article borders on non-sense in the first place and would like to see the criteria under which it qualifies for inclusion in wikipedia at all. Timb0h 13:36, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
"St Tottering's Day" is a fatuous web concept created by a small number of modern day internet based Arsenal fans. It has no real significance in the history of this fixture and only a small portion of one of the team's support has knowledge of it. It should not have it's own heading let alone several paragraphs.
The Crossing the divide section reports on players who have played for both clubs, but not on players who have played for both sides in the derby. That more specific infomation should be added if anyone has the details. jnestorius( talk) 22:30, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Why is this page about two English teams using US dates? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by IrishCheeseMaker ( talk • contribs) 23:44, January 31, 2007.
I've removed Kevin Stead from the list of players that have played for both clubs. It appears that www.arsenal.com has mixed up Kevin & Michael (Mickey) Stead. Kevin was a Tottenham player but never appeared in the first team. He did, however, play for Arsenal's first team. Mickey played 14 games for Tottenham's first team and was never an Arsenal player at any point in his career. Reference books such as Barry Hugman's Football League Players' Records and Rothmans Football Yearbook confirm this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Goonerak ( talk • contribs) 12:10, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
Hi. I think its time to discuss this subject. Personally I can't see a problem why a high scoring match cannot be included, they are all notable in their own way and make interesting reading. Which these pages are all about. Any thoughts please. Northmetpit ( talk) 08:47, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
25 Dec 1911 Football League First Division A 0–5 07 May 1927 Football League First Division A 4–0 20 Oct 1934 Football League First Division H 5–1 06 Mar 1935 Football League First Division A 6–0 02 Sep 1944 Football League South (World War 2) A 0–4 22 Feb 1958 Football League First Division H 4–4 26 Aug 1961 Football League First Division A 3–4 06 Oct 1962 Football League First Division A 4–4 15 Oct 1963 Football League First Division H 4–4 23 Dec 1978 Football League First Division A 5–0 04 Apr 1983 Football League First Division A 0-5 26 Dec 1983 Football League First Division A 4–2
The recent 4-4 game deserves inclusion because it's been an exceptional season for Tottenham, their worst start ever, their possible relegation from the premier league which would have been thought unthinkable, and it could be a turning point. And the fact it was the order of the goals and the manner of them rather than simply the quantity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.96.151.68 ( talk) 15:15, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
Can we have a full list of results like in the artcicles on the Manchester and Merseyside derbies?
Honour | Tottenham Hotspur Year(s) | Arsenal Year(s) |
---|---|---|
Premier League Champions |
1998, 2002, 2004 | |
Premier League Runners-up |
1999, 2000, 2001, 2003, 2005 | |
Football League Champions |
1951, 1961 | 1931, 1933, 1934, 1935, 1938, 1948, 1953, 1971, 1989, 1991 |
Football League Runners-up |
1922, 1952, 1957, 1963 | 1926, 1932, 1973 |
FA Cup Winners |
1901, 1921, 1961, 1962, 1967, 1981, 1982, 1991 | 1930, 1936, 1950, 1972, 1979, 1993, 1998, 2002, 2003, 2005 |
FA Cup Runners-up |
1987 | 1927, 1932, 1932, 1972, 1978, 1980, 2001 |
FA Cup semi finalists |
||
UEFA Cup Winners' Cup Winners |
1963 | 1994 |
UEFA Cup Winners' Cup Runners-up |
1980, 1995 | |
UEFA Cup Winners |
1972, 1984 | |
UEFA Cup Runners-up |
1974 | 2000 |
Inter-Cities Fairs Cup Winners |
1970 | |
Old Second Division Champions |
1920, 1950 | |
Old Second Division Runners-up |
1909, 1933 | 1904 |
League Cup Winners |
1971, 1973, 1999, 2008 | 1987, 1993 |
League Cup Runners-up |
1982, 2002 | 1968, 1969, 1988, 2007 |
League Cup semi finalists |
1978, 1983, 1996, 1998, 2004, 2006, 2008 | |
FA Charity Shield Winners |
||
FA Charity Shield Runners-up |
||
FA Youth Cup Winners |
Regardless of which way the moderators decide this argument the section on St Totteringham's day is atrociously written. Particularly paras 2 and 4. If it has to stay at least let someone who can write edit it properly.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Unreturnable ( talk • contribs) 00:14, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
New comment: user: unreturnable
Saebhiar. However well-researched your piece on St Totteringham's day it seems to me it does not merit inclusion at its current length. The word count is almost as long as the entire list and description of all the major clashes in this fixture over the last 100 years. Neither is it worth 50% of the words detailing the entire history of the rivalry.
The main issue with the concept is that it is a total internet neologism. It is rooted in the attitude that the start of the Premiership was the start of football whereas the whole point of this article is the huge history behind this fixture.
To tackle a couple of your points - I don't think that a mention in a club programme merits 450 words on Wikipedia. The Arsenal Soccer School gets mentioned in the Arsenal programme far more frequently that this concept but I don't see an article on Wikipedia or indeed even a mention on the entirety of the main Arsenal page.
Similarly, 1,500 (or even 10,000) Google results is an absolutely miniscule amount in internet terms, which given it is an entirely internet-based concept shows that it has not really permeated the consciousness of Arsenal fans in general (a search for Arsenal Soccer School returns more than 500,000 results). 'Flapianski' - the nickname many fans across the country have adopted for the Arsenal 'goalkeeper' Lucasz Fabianski has more than 3,000 Google results but no one is claiming is should be on his Wikipedia page (which incidentally has fewer words in its text that you believe should be devoted to St Totteringham's Day).
If Spurs fans set up Arsenalwithoutatrophycounter.com - an internet clock counting the days, weeks and months since Arsenal won a trophy it would not merit inclusion here and neither really does this given it is a concept only endorsed by Arsenal fans who began supporting the club during its years of success. Genuine fans who lived through the darker periods of the club's history would not have bothered with such a fatuous concept.
It perhaps deserves a mention, maybe two lines, and no more. I see the moderators have locked the page - I am sure common sense will prevail when it is re-opened.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Unreturnable ( talk • contribs) 12:29, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
I know this is probably a delicate issue with Spurs fans and they'd probably like to keep the whole Totteringham's day concept quiet. But the fact is, it has become too big to be ignored any longer. A simple Google search on the subject will pull 1,500 pages and it has even been mentioned on arsenal official day programmes.
It is becoming an Arsenal tradition that's relevant to the north London rivalry this article is about. I understand some people might not like it but you can't just un-invent it or pretend it doesn't exist.
I wrote the section and I tried to keep it as short and neutral as possible. I am not a troll or a schoolkid trying to aggravate people. I'm just a middle-aged, reasonable guy, trying to add something interesting to an article.
I've spent quite some time researching and writing that section. If some people feel it shouldn't be included, let's discuss it and hopefully we can reach a consensus. In the meantime, let's not just delete it without so much as a by your leave as someone has already done. I'll just put it back on again. You'll only be wasting your time and mine.
Thank you. Saebhiar Adishatz 01:23, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
Its still mathematically possible for Spurs to finish above Arsenal. 7 points difference with 9 points to play for. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.34.249.149 ( talk) 14:43, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
I would say leave it alone as it does have the references for it's inclusion (as Saebhiar states) along with including the background and recent events. If tottenham fans come up with their own version about this or something else, then it should be included as well to be balanced (and to appease tottenham fans calling for this section's blood) but since they don't, the section should be left as it is untill such a time arises.
The C of E. God Save The Queen! (
talk)
16:50, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
Alright, I think we can come to a compromise here. I propose that we reduce the section on this page to a brief mention (couple of sentences) and move the bulk of it to the
Arsenal_F.C._supporters page, which is probably more suited to it since it's an Arsenal supporters thing after all. Everybody cool with that?
Saebhiar
Adishatz
02:14, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
Seems fair to me. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Unreturnable (
talk •
contribs)
08:48, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
Moved the bulk of the article to Arsenal_F.C._supporters also found and added refs from Sun, Mirror, Daily Mail and BBC Sport's websites. Happy St. Totteringham's day everyone! Saebhiar Adishatz 00:10, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
This whole little section should be removed wholesale. It is a complete and utter fabrication, and is only being kept present on the article due to the antics of Arsenal fans, The C of E and Saebhiar. There is no such thing as 'St Totteringham's Day', outside of the bounds of obscure Arsenal fan forums. A typical Arsenal fan won't even know of the concept - and to be frank - it undermines the whole history of this iconic fixture. References from Facebook fan pages and Arsenal forums cannot be considered viable citations. 77.75.110.130 ( talk) 09:24, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
I've added a caveat on the article pointing out that both celebrations are a fan thing and neither are recognised officialy by the clubs (yet). Saebhiar Adishatz 15:18, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
No comments I note, since The C of E got the page protected. No discussion since then. Very poor. Clearly reverting each others edits isn't the way forward. I state again that this fatuous bumpf has no right whatsoever to be on this page. End of. It has *nothing* to do with the North London Derby as a fixture, and isn't notable in its own right. Revert, revert, revert! Captmonkey ( talk) 10:04, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
I have asked, multiple times, for verifiable references (eg. not Facebook pages, or Arsenal forums) to this day *before* the end of this past season. There have been *none* If I could make it flash and blink in bright red, I would. Captmonkey ( talk) 20:59, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
Just because it's being mentioned this season and has origins back to 2002 doesn't make it any less notible than if say a newly founded amateur club gains national recognition. I would also appreciate it that you didn't use blasphemy. The C of E. God Save The Queen! ( talk) 06:46, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
NOTES FOR ADMIN/EDITORS regarding edit war:
This page became protected by admin a week ago. The protection stems from my reversions of The C of E and a co-conspirator's edits on this page, which continually try to establish a fatuous nonsense celebration day that allegedly all Arsenal fans celebrate - St Totteringham's day. By its inclusion on Wikipedia since early April, it has been picked up on by a couple of online news reports - as Arsenal and Tottenham were both vying for 3rd place until the last day of the season this year - who have believed what they've read on Wikipedia and have mentioned (exceptionally briefly) this so-called day. These mentions have given The C of E and his cohorts the belief that this is now grounds for inclusion on Wikipedia. It has become a self-fulfilling prophecy, as far as they are concerned.
I have asked for any verifiable references to this day *before* the last week or two of the last football season - and they have been unable/unwilling to come up with any - other than Facebook pages and Arsenal forums - my position is that *if* this day has really been celebrated by thousands of fans around the world - then, surely there would have been a mention of it somewhere verifiable before now? Allegedly, its been an on-going celebration since 2002 - yet there's no mention of it in any news source, other than in the last couple of weeks of this past season - a time when the nonsense was available on Wikipedia.
This isn't simply "You're wrong, I'm right!"/"No YOU'RE wrong, I'M right!"; as The C of E identifies as an Arsenal fan on his user page, as do his co-conspirators - hardly unbiased, balanced editorial - it appears to be a co-ordinated case of a couple of Arsenal fans trying to legitimatise a so-called celebration dreamed up on some Arsenal fan forum by having its inclusion on Wikipedia. I'm sure that a handful of Arsenal fans who are internet users and who frequent Arsenal forums will have heard of such a day; but what fraction of the 60,000 that turn up at Arsenal home games? Or what fraction of the potentially millions of fans around the world? This is not notable, not verifiable and not worthy of inclusion.
In addition to this, all reasoning with The C of E seems to be utterly, utterly fruitless as he appears to disregard any facts or contrary information given to him and appears unwilling and unable to engage in meaningful dialogue.
Can I ask that you review the edit log of the page, and in particular the this talk page (the long section above beginning 'St Totteringham's day'), and offer your thoughts. Thank you. Captmonkey ( talk) 09:30, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
For crying out loud, St Totteringham's day is mentioned in a 2007 Arsenal-Villa official match programme. And has been referenced in national newspapers since, what more do you want? It's not like we dedicated a whole article to it, it's just 2 lines at the bottom of a secondary article, why are we still fighting this retarded crusade?!? St Totteringham's day exists, I didn't make it up, C of E didn't make it up. It's aliiiive! Accept it and move on. Saebhiar Adishatz 04:41, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
I can't help but notice that all dialogue ceases when admins lock the page - Very poor. Captmonkey ( talk) 22:56, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
Truly, truly depressing. A whole month and neither offender offers any citations or references, and instead - one regurgitates the nonsense verbatim. And this user seeks Adminship!! Incredible. Captmonkey ( talk) 13:27, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
I'll ignore all the NPA stuff and focus on the content:
St Totteringham's Day: This is now (or was before it was reverted) sourced to four sources, namely the Sun, the Daily Mail, the Daily Mirror, and a very short mention in a BBC live update. All of these sources appeared in May 2010. Before May 2010, this page was sourced to clearly unreliable sources. It was thus my initial view that we had circular sourcing here. However, other articles exist from as early as 2005. [1] There may be a bit of self-fulfilling here - I can't say for sure whether some or all of the news outlets have used wikipedia as a reference - but I think there is enough to be confident that not all of the verification is circular sourcing.
St Hotspurs' Day: This seems to be entirely unverified and should be deleted.
There is then the issue of presentation. Even at its best, the sources only discuss this "day" in passing mentions. Therefore I don't think it is significant enough to warrant a separate section of the article, and there's not enough sourced content to support any more than a sentence or two. I therefore suggest that the "day" be mentioned briefly in an existing section of the article (eg "History").
Cheers -- Mkativerata ( talk) 20:49, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
I can't fix the capitalization because the page is protected. Admins, please! Chris the speller ( talk) 15:11, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
Added to 'Crossing The Divide: Arsenal, then Tottenham' db1987db ( talk) 13:58, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
I added a section on fans since it seems to me that fierce, local sporting rivalry is even more about the fans than it is about the teams / clubs. Shelfsider ( talk) 01:40, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
Since my restoration of the mention of St Hotspur Day was undone by C of E on the grounds of a lack of source, I have provided five separate sources. These sources might not be deemed to be recognized or reliable by some. However, the whole point of both St Hotspur Day and St Totteringham Day is that they are fan inventions. Therefore, virtually all mention of them will inevitably be restricted to fan websites and publications. The fact that a mere handful of more recognized sources have very recently mentioned St Totteringham Day in no way validates it more than St Hotspur Day. As Captmonkey has pointed out, these more recognized sources would have sourced their information from this very page. And this page only ever mentioned St Totteringham Day because some Arsenal fan decided to post it here (without citing any initial reliable sources - for the simple reason that, at the time, there weren't any). I don't doubt that these same recognized sources would have picked up on St Hotspur Day if it too had been mentioned on this page. So I repeat my earlier position on the matter. Neither St Hotspur Day nor St Totteringham Day belong on a page such as this. But if one must be mentioned, then the other must too - especially since the notion of St Hotspur Day has been in existence for considerably longer than the notion of St Totteringham Day and was, in fact, the inspiration behind St Totteringham Day*. It would be nonsensical to argue otherwise. Any further mention of one and simultaneous omission of the other would invalidate this page as not being written from a neutral point of view. *The term "St Hotspur Day" was first coined in the former fanzine, The Spur, in the first published edition after the 1991 FA Cup semi final. Shelfsider ( talk) 13:56, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
The Tottenahm 5-1 Arsenal sounds awfully bias.
Why can't we include the 4-4 draw and the Arsenal 4-1 Totteham just last month? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.104.143.38 ( talk) 22:38, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
Yes, The Carling cup thrasing of 4-1 should be added. It seems Arsenal will win that. The match reports seem extremely bias though, there is a constant shot at Arsenal in them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.27.89.96 ( talk) 14:35, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
I saw that there was a revision taking out the portion of the history section which gave synopses of games from about 2010 to 2013 and then it was put back in. Perhaps there should be a "recent history" section where little snippets regarding recent games are. Otherwise, I don't believe that so much of the 100+ year history between the clubs should be focused on games between 2010 and 2013. Frankly, I think the only ones that deserve any mention are the 2-0 to 3-2 at the Emirates, because it was Spurs first win there and the first in a long time over the big clubs. And Arsenal's 5-2 win in the 2011-12 season, because they were down 2-0 and because it was the first step in erasing a 10-point lead that Spurs had in the table. (The latter fact isn't even mentioned in the article.) The other games weren't particularly noteworthy. All these games are noteworthy because it's the North London Derby. But there is nothing that makes the other games particularly noteworthy and there's no reason those games should be listed over others or take such a huge amount of the 100+ year history between these clubs. Dawindler ( talk) 01:37, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
"Arsenal play their home games at the Emirates Stadium, while Tottenham Hotspur play their home games at White Hart Lane. However, the latter will play its UEFA Champions League home games at Wembley Stadium for the 2016/17 campaign."
Is there a reason why this is included? Doesn't seem very relevant to a page about a rivalry that occurs in the Prem—unless they eventually do meet in the Champions League, the point about Wembley seems rather tangential. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.73.54.58 ( talk) 21:43, 5 November 2016 (UTC)
The numbers given in the article are confusing. Why start with 1909 for the count in the stats section? If we are talking about matches between the two teams, then it goes further back than that, and if we are talking about matches between the two team after Arsenal moved to north London (i.e. when matches between them can be properly called North London derby), then it's later. That their first Football League meeting started in 1909 is neither here nor there. Hzh ( talk) 11:45, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
There still seem to be a number of discrepancies in the figures in the articles, someone needs to check them. Hzh ( talk) 15:44, 18 November 2017 (UTC)