This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
Wouldn't the operators of North Korean websites be more willing to use the domain suffix ".dpr.kr" rather than ".kp"? ".dpr.kr" would probably go over with them better than ".kp", since they wish for Korea to be one, wouldn't you say? Now how would one go about starting up the ".dpr.kr" domain suffix in the first place?
Example site (does not exist {yet}) http://www.kist.ac.dpr.kr would be a hypothetical main website for Kim Il Sung Taehakkyo (University) -- Shultz 21:09, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
The following was inserted in the text by user:70.108.30.138 on 00:22, February 7, 2006 and I moved it here:
==International Conflicts==
Hello! These are FACTS: "Wikipedia content is intended to be factual, notable, verifiable with external sources, and neutrally presented, with external sources cited" If this doesnt belong here, tell me where it does belong please. thanks.
In the 1980s North Korea was linked to two international terrorist attacks. In October 1983, North Korean agents were responsible for an attempt on the life of South Korean President Chun Doo Hwan at at Burma's National Cemetery in Rangoon, Burma which killed 17 South Korean officials including the South Korean foreign minister and ambassador to Burma as well as four Burmese. President Chun arrived at the cemetery behind schedule and was unharmed. The Burmese government later apprehended the North Korean agents responsible. North Korea is also believed to be responsible for the bombing of Korean Air Flight 858 on November 29, 1987 over the Andaman Sea in which all 115 passengers and crew were killed. That attack is thought to have been devised to scare tourists away from visiting the 1988 Summer Olympics in Seoul after North Korea was not asked to co-host the events [1].
North Korea has sponsored numerous acts of terror against South Korea since its founding [2].
-- rogerd 05:38, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
I corrected info in the infobox because it was incorrect or unverifiable. For instance, I removed the hanja characters because their use is banned in North Korea, which hardly makes it an official name. And the GDP estimates go back; I hardly think that the CIA underestimates North Korea's GDP for propaganda, it doesn't make sense. And 40 billion seems like a little too round of a figure to be anything but a complete and total guess.-- naryathegreat | (talk) 04:32, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
"Major Pyongyang boulevard during rush hour." Was the picture actually taken during rush hour? Apokrif 15:17, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
I believe that the official sport of North Korea is StarCraft because it managed to boast North Korea's economy significantly.
Wrong Korea, even though you were joking-- 193.195.185.254 20:14, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
User:Visviva has worked hard to create a brand new Portal:Korea. Please take a look & contribute if you can. I think the new Template:Korea topics has the potential to be a more useful reference tool than categories or lists, if editors continue to expand and update it. It's also a good reminder for help & requests on ye olde notice board. Hopefully, this will help revive some activity all around. Appleby 21:23, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
how do we know this is typical? is there a reputable source for that description & the speculation on how the picture was taken? after all, it wouldn't be hard for someone to take a picture of a "redevelopment" project in any city, USA, & label it "typical". Appleby 06:25, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
According to the South Korea article, both Korean states are members of the UN since 1991. This article here doesn't mention that fact. Could one of the regular editors please consider how to include it. Thanks, Str1977 (smile back) 15:06, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
I put a new documentary up, I believe that everyone must see this. It sheds alot of light on the situation in North Korea.
Gimpyn00b 11:00, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Large numbers? how many? find an estimation and a source.
There were stories? Where? Unless a source is put here it should be deleted.
I know that this may be a touchy subject, and that my suggestion may be taken in a negative light, but in many ways North Korea fits the description of an Atheist Police State. I know that chances of getting the words mentioned in the description of North Korea are minor, but because of allegations of targeted assassinations, laws against proselytizing, extreme nationalism, and an environment in which the military also acts as a Police force, I think it would be rather fitting.
I should note, in order to keep this from being misconstrued as an attempt to associate Atheism with a totalitarian regime, that I am an Atheist myself and that my concerns are with the many worldly and (supposedly) objective observations of North Korea's political structure, military police structure, and hard line anti-religious doctrine, as well as the doctrine of loyalty to the state and leader above all else. -- Lucavix 16:43, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
Why can't the plain and simple term "Police State" be used instead? It defines all of the criteria you described, yet keeps the article closer to a NPOV. Admittedly you cannot lable North Korea a police state with the information we have, but we can draw comparisions and allow the reader to make up their own mind.
The term "Communist state" is inaccurate.
1) Technically, the term "communist state" is an oxymoron. 2) There is no communist party in North Korea 3) There are not just one party in North Korea. There are several 4) North Korea erased the last mentioning of Marxism-Leninism in the 90's. 5) Their official ideology is Juche, NOT marxism.
Hmmm.....let's see.....Red Star....Allied(Or previously allied) with USSR and China....Stalinism. Sounds Communist to me. Dudtz 9/6/05 6:06 PM EST
Their not Stalinist in practice, only have Stalinist qualities. -Comrade Shane-
A Communist society is one without qualitative class distinctions and no State. Any sentient creature who doesn't buy into NK propaganda knows this is not the case in NK. A socialist society is one in which the (former) proletariet owns the means of production and has control over its labor power. Again, nothing even remotely like this exists in NK. Sure, the "DPRK defines itself as Socialist." It also defines itself as a "Democratic People's Republic". Such a title would make Orwell cry, but I guess I'm just "neglecting the truth". -Nobody123
North Korea is not a Communist state?! Boy, this "political 'correctness'" is getting out of hands... -- Thorri 12:46, 6 Nov 2005 (UTC)
Thorri, explain how saying that North Korea is not in fact a Communist state an act of "political 'correctness'"? Historically correct? Yes. Politically correct? Perhaps in Finland. -Nobody123
That doesn't prove anything Thorri. All it proves is that whomever authored the wikipedia page classifies Juche as a "school of communism". That ignores the fact that Juche is inherently anti-Marxist in its isolationism. The most extreme examples of the Cult of Personality can be found in NK. Marx in a letter to Wilhelm Blos wrote :"Neither of us cares a straw for popularity. Let me cite one proof of this: such was my aversion to the personality cult that at the time of the International, when plagued by numerous moves — originating from various countries — to accord me public honour, I never allowed one of these to enter the domain of publicity, nor did I ever reply to them, save with an occasional snub. When Engels and I first joined the secret communist society, we did so only on condition that anything conducive to a superstitious belief in authority be eliminated from the Rules." NK doesn't look like a communist state. It looks like a totalitarian hell on Earth animated by a rotten religious cult adhering to a crazy belief system call Juche. -Nobody123
Indeed, the sooner the regime falls, the better. For us and more importantly for the people of NK. I think to call America a capitalist state is an inaccurate use of the word. There is no "free market" in relation to what Smith, et al spoke of in the US. It's a State-Capitalist economy. When the richest capitalists take a risk and loose their shirts, they run to and get a bail out from the government. So much for "market discipline". I certainly agree that our health care system if fucked up because the rich have so much control over the political process and want it dismantled and privatized. But they haven't enough control to kill social security as they tried to earlier this year. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nobody123 ( talk • contribs) .
The only way the DPRK is not a Communist state is if you say it believes in juche, its official national ideology since the 1970s. As for Nobody's comment about the regime falling being better for the DPRK people, this is a very superficial look at a problem. Do you not think of the consequences, or is overthrowing a regime the limit of your thinking (much like Iraq)? The unification of the Germanys were incredibly hard on West Germany as will the reunification of Korea on the South Koreans. Whereas the Koreans are limited to paltry amounts of grain per day at present, anarchy will mean they won't even get that. The refugee problem will be horrific, not to talk about sanitation, aid, etc. Anarchy is also very likely to result in war on the Korean peninsula. Even the DPRK's missiles and nukes will not be under control. But I guess this doesn't really concern you? Jsw663 03:12, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
This article has nothing to say about Korea's military strength. Or their nuclear capabilities (none yet evidently). And the same for chemical and biological weapons. Is it a lack of valuble info? or are we just sidestepping the issue?
if their official name is democratic peoples republic of korea, why is the official page for the dprk redirected to "north korea". that doesnt seem very professional of wikipedia to do that. it should be reversed. the title should read dprk and then (north korea) should be in brackets.
I would agree that you have a valid point. I think the redirect is on the wrong direction and the redirect should go from North Korea to DPRK and not the other way around. A simple way to surely resolve this would be to use the names of countries as published on the the UN website ( http://www.un.org/Overview/unmember.html) as this represents the correct official name for the country. A redirect can them be made from common parlance to the correct name. Anything else is surely not NPOV as who can argue against what a country wants to be officially known as. -- Duchovny1 22:12, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
I agree with Appleby on this point - official titles should be used, regardless of the language. For example, we don't see the page of the USA being redirected to 'the States'. Can't we appeal to Wiki? This issue should become even more important if Wiki decides to establish itself as a legitimate competitor to the official (print) encyclopedias (instead of just another internet source). Jsw663 11:09, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
The article doesn't inform about the censorship and political police. Xx236 13:58, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
Do some research and add information to the article. Make sure to provide reliable sources! Sukiari 18:38, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
All three photographs on this page are of Pyongyang. These should be balanced with pictures of the rest of the state, as in China's entry, which has historical and rural, not just modern and urban, views. Such pictures can come from documentaries, from human rights organizations, or from historical documents. Someone more knowledgeable than I on this subject could help a lot. Calbaer 20:33, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
I added a POV check banner at the top of this page because the overall mood seems to be from an American or "western" point of view violating wikipedia's NPOV policy.
Is it really even possible to be NPOV on an article like this? Not a lot of information comes out of North Korea. 71.19.6.20 02:53, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
Well we still have to try don't we?
There is a lot of information from Korean, Chinese, Russian, Vietnamese, Latin American and other non-western sources you just have to look, it is the lazy and biased way out to just accept reporting from a single point of view, NoJoyInMudville 21:14, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
I recently made a slight change to the government section which I feel falls under NPOV. I changed North Korea is one of the last Communist States to North Korea [...] few communist states. I believe that assuming there will be no new communist states in the coming years is perhaps a more Western thought, and that history will be the judge of whether or not any new countries decide to become communist. Who knows... in a thousand years, the human race as a whole may be communist... probably not, but it could happen.
I also added a {{ Fact}} to the first paragraph... see my notes in the page source for more information on my reasoning. - Âme Errante 05:38, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
Is there a reason that every fact with a negative connotation is immediately rebutted with obvious propaganda? Re: Famine - "The North Korean government has worked hard to resolve many of the supply problems and the future looks bright according to their website."
"...according to their website"?! I'm appalled. There is a POV, but it's obviously in favor of North Korea.
North Korea is an actual event?.. That tag should be in the section that the person who put it thinks is an actual event, but a country an actual event? literally... yes... but then you have to put the tag in every country. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bauta ( talk • contribs)
Maybe in 10 years where everone starts forgetting about it where there is no more testing(And maybe no N.Korea either!) it could moved history.-- Scott3 23:08, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
It is great that wikipedia can be updated to the lastest news story, but I don't think that from a long term perpective the launching of 6 missiles is such a big deal. North Korea has had a weapons program for some time and this is just one of many steps in that dirrection. I think that all to often we forget that we are tring to write an article that will last a long time, not one that will have to be updated every few weeks to remain accurate. Jon513 23:15, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
What does "Chosŏn Minjujuŭi Inmin Konghwaguk" is just the translation of the Demorcartic Republic of Korea or is it somthing elese?-- Scott3 23:09, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps I'm naïve, but why is North Korea's offical name Democratic People's Republic of Korea? As far as I've read, it is neither democratic nor is it about the people—it's a communist dictatorship, the opposite of its chosen nomenclature. Is this just some more inexplicable weirdness from the insane Great Leader or his even more insane offspring, Dear Leader? Avalyn 12:56, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
A similar discussion to this is also being talked about on the six-party talks discussion board. Just thought I'd highlight it. Jsw663 11:06, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
Wouldn't the operators of North Korean websites be more willing to use the domain suffix ".dpr.kr" rather than ".kp"? ".dpr.kr" would probably go over with them better than ".kp", since they wish for Korea to be one, wouldn't you say? Now how would one go about starting up the ".dpr.kr" domain suffix in the first place?
Example site (does not exist {yet}) http://www.kist.ac.dpr.kr would be a hypothetical main website for Kim Il Sung Taehakkyo (University) -- Shultz 21:09, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
The following was inserted in the text by user:70.108.30.138 on 00:22, February 7, 2006 and I moved it here:
==International Conflicts==
Hello! These are FACTS: "Wikipedia content is intended to be factual, notable, verifiable with external sources, and neutrally presented, with external sources cited" If this doesnt belong here, tell me where it does belong please. thanks.
In the 1980s North Korea was linked to two international terrorist attacks. In October 1983, North Korean agents were responsible for an attempt on the life of South Korean President Chun Doo Hwan at at Burma's National Cemetery in Rangoon, Burma which killed 17 South Korean officials including the South Korean foreign minister and ambassador to Burma as well as four Burmese. President Chun arrived at the cemetery behind schedule and was unharmed. The Burmese government later apprehended the North Korean agents responsible. North Korea is also believed to be responsible for the bombing of Korean Air Flight 858 on November 29, 1987 over the Andaman Sea in which all 115 passengers and crew were killed. That attack is thought to have been devised to scare tourists away from visiting the 1988 Summer Olympics in Seoul after North Korea was not asked to co-host the events [1].
North Korea has sponsored numerous acts of terror against South Korea since its founding [2].
-- rogerd 05:38, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
I corrected info in the infobox because it was incorrect or unverifiable. For instance, I removed the hanja characters because their use is banned in North Korea, which hardly makes it an official name. And the GDP estimates go back; I hardly think that the CIA underestimates North Korea's GDP for propaganda, it doesn't make sense. And 40 billion seems like a little too round of a figure to be anything but a complete and total guess.-- naryathegreat | (talk) 04:32, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
"Major Pyongyang boulevard during rush hour." Was the picture actually taken during rush hour? Apokrif 15:17, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
I believe that the official sport of North Korea is StarCraft because it managed to boast North Korea's economy significantly.
Wrong Korea, even though you were joking-- 193.195.185.254 20:14, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
User:Visviva has worked hard to create a brand new Portal:Korea. Please take a look & contribute if you can. I think the new Template:Korea topics has the potential to be a more useful reference tool than categories or lists, if editors continue to expand and update it. It's also a good reminder for help & requests on ye olde notice board. Hopefully, this will help revive some activity all around. Appleby 21:23, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
how do we know this is typical? is there a reputable source for that description & the speculation on how the picture was taken? after all, it wouldn't be hard for someone to take a picture of a "redevelopment" project in any city, USA, & label it "typical". Appleby 06:25, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
According to the South Korea article, both Korean states are members of the UN since 1991. This article here doesn't mention that fact. Could one of the regular editors please consider how to include it. Thanks, Str1977 (smile back) 15:06, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
I put a new documentary up, I believe that everyone must see this. It sheds alot of light on the situation in North Korea.
Gimpyn00b 11:00, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Large numbers? how many? find an estimation and a source.
There were stories? Where? Unless a source is put here it should be deleted.
I know that this may be a touchy subject, and that my suggestion may be taken in a negative light, but in many ways North Korea fits the description of an Atheist Police State. I know that chances of getting the words mentioned in the description of North Korea are minor, but because of allegations of targeted assassinations, laws against proselytizing, extreme nationalism, and an environment in which the military also acts as a Police force, I think it would be rather fitting.
I should note, in order to keep this from being misconstrued as an attempt to associate Atheism with a totalitarian regime, that I am an Atheist myself and that my concerns are with the many worldly and (supposedly) objective observations of North Korea's political structure, military police structure, and hard line anti-religious doctrine, as well as the doctrine of loyalty to the state and leader above all else. -- Lucavix 16:43, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
Why can't the plain and simple term "Police State" be used instead? It defines all of the criteria you described, yet keeps the article closer to a NPOV. Admittedly you cannot lable North Korea a police state with the information we have, but we can draw comparisions and allow the reader to make up their own mind.
The term "Communist state" is inaccurate.
1) Technically, the term "communist state" is an oxymoron. 2) There is no communist party in North Korea 3) There are not just one party in North Korea. There are several 4) North Korea erased the last mentioning of Marxism-Leninism in the 90's. 5) Their official ideology is Juche, NOT marxism.
Hmmm.....let's see.....Red Star....Allied(Or previously allied) with USSR and China....Stalinism. Sounds Communist to me. Dudtz 9/6/05 6:06 PM EST
Their not Stalinist in practice, only have Stalinist qualities. -Comrade Shane-
A Communist society is one without qualitative class distinctions and no State. Any sentient creature who doesn't buy into NK propaganda knows this is not the case in NK. A socialist society is one in which the (former) proletariet owns the means of production and has control over its labor power. Again, nothing even remotely like this exists in NK. Sure, the "DPRK defines itself as Socialist." It also defines itself as a "Democratic People's Republic". Such a title would make Orwell cry, but I guess I'm just "neglecting the truth". -Nobody123
North Korea is not a Communist state?! Boy, this "political 'correctness'" is getting out of hands... -- Thorri 12:46, 6 Nov 2005 (UTC)
Thorri, explain how saying that North Korea is not in fact a Communist state an act of "political 'correctness'"? Historically correct? Yes. Politically correct? Perhaps in Finland. -Nobody123
That doesn't prove anything Thorri. All it proves is that whomever authored the wikipedia page classifies Juche as a "school of communism". That ignores the fact that Juche is inherently anti-Marxist in its isolationism. The most extreme examples of the Cult of Personality can be found in NK. Marx in a letter to Wilhelm Blos wrote :"Neither of us cares a straw for popularity. Let me cite one proof of this: such was my aversion to the personality cult that at the time of the International, when plagued by numerous moves — originating from various countries — to accord me public honour, I never allowed one of these to enter the domain of publicity, nor did I ever reply to them, save with an occasional snub. When Engels and I first joined the secret communist society, we did so only on condition that anything conducive to a superstitious belief in authority be eliminated from the Rules." NK doesn't look like a communist state. It looks like a totalitarian hell on Earth animated by a rotten religious cult adhering to a crazy belief system call Juche. -Nobody123
Indeed, the sooner the regime falls, the better. For us and more importantly for the people of NK. I think to call America a capitalist state is an inaccurate use of the word. There is no "free market" in relation to what Smith, et al spoke of in the US. It's a State-Capitalist economy. When the richest capitalists take a risk and loose their shirts, they run to and get a bail out from the government. So much for "market discipline". I certainly agree that our health care system if fucked up because the rich have so much control over the political process and want it dismantled and privatized. But they haven't enough control to kill social security as they tried to earlier this year. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nobody123 ( talk • contribs) .
The only way the DPRK is not a Communist state is if you say it believes in juche, its official national ideology since the 1970s. As for Nobody's comment about the regime falling being better for the DPRK people, this is a very superficial look at a problem. Do you not think of the consequences, or is overthrowing a regime the limit of your thinking (much like Iraq)? The unification of the Germanys were incredibly hard on West Germany as will the reunification of Korea on the South Koreans. Whereas the Koreans are limited to paltry amounts of grain per day at present, anarchy will mean they won't even get that. The refugee problem will be horrific, not to talk about sanitation, aid, etc. Anarchy is also very likely to result in war on the Korean peninsula. Even the DPRK's missiles and nukes will not be under control. But I guess this doesn't really concern you? Jsw663 03:12, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
This article has nothing to say about Korea's military strength. Or their nuclear capabilities (none yet evidently). And the same for chemical and biological weapons. Is it a lack of valuble info? or are we just sidestepping the issue?
if their official name is democratic peoples republic of korea, why is the official page for the dprk redirected to "north korea". that doesnt seem very professional of wikipedia to do that. it should be reversed. the title should read dprk and then (north korea) should be in brackets.
I would agree that you have a valid point. I think the redirect is on the wrong direction and the redirect should go from North Korea to DPRK and not the other way around. A simple way to surely resolve this would be to use the names of countries as published on the the UN website ( http://www.un.org/Overview/unmember.html) as this represents the correct official name for the country. A redirect can them be made from common parlance to the correct name. Anything else is surely not NPOV as who can argue against what a country wants to be officially known as. -- Duchovny1 22:12, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
I agree with Appleby on this point - official titles should be used, regardless of the language. For example, we don't see the page of the USA being redirected to 'the States'. Can't we appeal to Wiki? This issue should become even more important if Wiki decides to establish itself as a legitimate competitor to the official (print) encyclopedias (instead of just another internet source). Jsw663 11:09, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
The article doesn't inform about the censorship and political police. Xx236 13:58, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
Do some research and add information to the article. Make sure to provide reliable sources! Sukiari 18:38, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
All three photographs on this page are of Pyongyang. These should be balanced with pictures of the rest of the state, as in China's entry, which has historical and rural, not just modern and urban, views. Such pictures can come from documentaries, from human rights organizations, or from historical documents. Someone more knowledgeable than I on this subject could help a lot. Calbaer 20:33, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
I added a POV check banner at the top of this page because the overall mood seems to be from an American or "western" point of view violating wikipedia's NPOV policy.
Is it really even possible to be NPOV on an article like this? Not a lot of information comes out of North Korea. 71.19.6.20 02:53, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
Well we still have to try don't we?
There is a lot of information from Korean, Chinese, Russian, Vietnamese, Latin American and other non-western sources you just have to look, it is the lazy and biased way out to just accept reporting from a single point of view, NoJoyInMudville 21:14, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
I recently made a slight change to the government section which I feel falls under NPOV. I changed North Korea is one of the last Communist States to North Korea [...] few communist states. I believe that assuming there will be no new communist states in the coming years is perhaps a more Western thought, and that history will be the judge of whether or not any new countries decide to become communist. Who knows... in a thousand years, the human race as a whole may be communist... probably not, but it could happen.
I also added a {{ Fact}} to the first paragraph... see my notes in the page source for more information on my reasoning. - Âme Errante 05:38, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
Is there a reason that every fact with a negative connotation is immediately rebutted with obvious propaganda? Re: Famine - "The North Korean government has worked hard to resolve many of the supply problems and the future looks bright according to their website."
"...according to their website"?! I'm appalled. There is a POV, but it's obviously in favor of North Korea.
North Korea is an actual event?.. That tag should be in the section that the person who put it thinks is an actual event, but a country an actual event? literally... yes... but then you have to put the tag in every country. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bauta ( talk • contribs)
Maybe in 10 years where everone starts forgetting about it where there is no more testing(And maybe no N.Korea either!) it could moved history.-- Scott3 23:08, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
It is great that wikipedia can be updated to the lastest news story, but I don't think that from a long term perpective the launching of 6 missiles is such a big deal. North Korea has had a weapons program for some time and this is just one of many steps in that dirrection. I think that all to often we forget that we are tring to write an article that will last a long time, not one that will have to be updated every few weeks to remain accurate. Jon513 23:15, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
What does "Chosŏn Minjujuŭi Inmin Konghwaguk" is just the translation of the Demorcartic Republic of Korea or is it somthing elese?-- Scott3 23:09, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps I'm naïve, but why is North Korea's offical name Democratic People's Republic of Korea? As far as I've read, it is neither democratic nor is it about the people—it's a communist dictatorship, the opposite of its chosen nomenclature. Is this just some more inexplicable weirdness from the insane Great Leader or his even more insane offspring, Dear Leader? Avalyn 12:56, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
A similar discussion to this is also being talked about on the six-party talks discussion board. Just thought I'd highlight it. Jsw663 11:06, 23 July 2006 (UTC)