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-- On page 51 of "FLY NAVY" by Phil Kaplan there is a discussion of the top secret "Seahorse" project. In late 1944 Naval Aviator and later test pilot Bob Elder flew carrier trials with a modified P-51D. There was great concern at the time regarding the ability to escort B-29s on bombing raids over Japan. The Seahorse project was cancelled after Iwo Jima was taken by the U.S. Marine Corps and its airfields used for P-51 escort missions. The Seahorse was not a P-51H as cited in the wikipedia article. - LegacyDriver —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.128.151.188 ( talk) 04:07, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
ÁHi, I wrote a very big portion of the article. Most of the information was taken from
my own site, so that obviously there's no problem with copyright. --
Uriyan
Added some stats (climb rate, ferry range) from
http://www.319th.com/p51.htm and specified P-51D for the climb.
Chairboy 15:15, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Inconsistency: Me 262 page says "The Tempest was the first Allied plane to shoot down a Me262 ..." though this page says "Chuck Yeager, flying a P-51D, was the first Allied pilot to shoot down a Me 262 ..." Mjs
The sentence "The transformed Mustang could outfly anything in the air including the latest British fighters" was Revised as of 07:56, 17 July 2005 to "Although the Mustang could not live with the Supermarine Spitfire in a dogfight, its extra range with the use of drop tanks, enabled the mark to excel as bomber escort. ". please see Talk:Supermarine Spitfire (late Merlin powered variants) for a discussion on the two statments. -- Philip Baird Shearer 20:02, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
How can that be explained: the maximum speed of the P 51 is given with 784 km/h. The record set by a Me 209 was 755 km/h, which was valid until 1969, when an F8F reached a new record speed for piston-engined aircraft. Astonishing, too? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.66.92.57 ( talk) 14:06, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
One aircraft was passed to the British who gave it the name Mustang I (Dive Bomber).
I have a British aircraft recognition handbook from around 1943/44 that states that the British name for the A-36 dive bomber variant of the Mustang was Invader I (I don't mean the Douglas B-26/A26 one!) - If anyone wants a scan of the handbook entry then drop me a line via my e-mail link. Ian Dunster 15:55, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
http://www.vectorsite.net/avp51.html is my source on that information. Seeing as the A-36 was originally named the Invader this could also be true. I don't know what Greg Geobel's source on that information is. --
Thatguy96
23:30, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/boundforglory/images/bg0066.jpg
A-36--an early P-51 variant that had a different engine and flew ground attack instead of dogfighting with 4x20mm cannons. Someone who knows HTML should do linky stuff.
Photo looks great. But which variant is it?
I have some issues with the section labeled "Effects of the P-51", ranging from timeline to generalizations of cause and effect that led to the employment of the Mustang as the escort fighter of choice in the ETO. The summary of the heavy bomber effort in particular is skewed, and while the conclusion is correct (i.e. heavy losses led directly to the conversion of all but one P-47 and P-38 groups in England to the P-51), this is supposed to be an encyclopedia, so generalizations should be accurate. The literature on heavy bomber operations is massive, and I have most of it in my library, so I will attempt to correct the section without turning it into an article on heavies. 131.238.92.62 08:36, 3 February 2006 (UTC)Buckboard 00:17, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
This article claims that most Allied bomber losses were to rocket-firing German aircraft. This is wrong. The Gr.21 rockets were wildly inaccurate and were used only in an attempt to scatter bomber formations. Guns, big guns and bigger guns was what the fighters used. - Emt147 Burninate! 16:57, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
There is a problem with the range, which states 1000 miles, and 1600 km with drop tanks. But 1600 km is only 994 miles.
Maybe I'm being a bit too strict, but to some people, it might seem that the Mustang P-51 is the very modern F-14 or F-15 in the back (I can't tell which it is). Maybe somebody could put up a picture with only the P-51 Mustang as the main article picture? Marcos Juárez 22:32, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
Under the heading Comparable Aircraft the article lists the CAC Kangaroo. The Kangaroo never went into production so isn't Comparable stretching it a bit. What say you? Moriori 21:46, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
- maru (talk) - contribs 00:16, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
"In 1946, the designation P-51D (P for pursuit) was changed to F-51D (F for fighter) because of a new designation scheme throughout the USAF." Spot the problem...
I have hung back from doing this, but the problem just won't seem to go away. The claim of "free hunting" in "May of 1944" needs to sourced. The idea of strafing airfields on an organized and sanctioned basis came as early as January 1944 when Hap Arnold sent a directive to Kepner calling for it. The first organized hunting mission occured in March 1944. The sanctioning of strafing airfields on the way home from escort missions began at the same time. P-51 enthusiasts are dipping into mythology on this point--if you have the source, put it up--at least here. Secondly, the scorekeeping regarding kills is grossly misleading. Only three of the 38 fighter groups in the ETO flew the P-51 exclusively in WWII--the 339th, 354th, and 357th. All the others flew something else--the P-47 or P-38 primarily--before some of them converted to the Mustang. Those that converted had some high-scoring P-47 totals--such as the 355th and 78th groups. To atrribute all the kills and all the losses to P-51s, again without sourcing, is grossly misleading. This can be a good article, but only if we get beyond the rah-rah chatter for an admittedly superior aircraft.--Buckboard 23:25, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
[1] has many more pictures. I can't read the text. -- Gbleem 22:06, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
Much of that section (aside from violating WP:AVTRIV) does not pass the "notability" criteria. Let's examine:
Spielberg's 1998 film, Saving Private Ryan, also features the P-51D, at the end of the final battle in the fictional French town of Ramelle. The small squadron, referred to as "tank busters" by Private Ryan himself, destroys a small detachment of German Tiger I tanks and lends air support to Captain Miller's platoon as they defend a strategic bridge. (The film's website states "P-51s were used instead of the more suitable P-47s, because it is possible P-47s could not be obtained").
I removed the text which was restored by another editor because apparently every P-51 appearance, no matter how short or insignificant, should be documented. To quote the consensus-derived contents guidelines at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Aircraft/page_content, A "Popular Culture" section should be avoided per Wikipedia:Avoid trivia sections in articles unless the appearances are especially notable. This section should not be a compendium of every trivial appearance, but significant ones of relevance to the airframe. The canonical example would be Top Gun for the F-14 Tomcat. Due to the large number of survey and arcade simulations, an effort should be made to avoid tallying every sim appearance unless there are very few of them. Fictional versions and speculation about fictional likenesses should not be included, as they constitute original research. Can I get some opinions on whether irrelevant 5-second film clips constitute notability? - Emt147 Burninate! 18:35, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Although I tend to agree with the above comments as to the significance of the P-51 in the "film" section, I think a revising of the "Saving Private Ryan" section would be appropriate. How about this: Spielberg's 1998 film, Saving Private Ryan, features the P-51D briefly, at the end of the final battle in the fictional French town of Ramelle, in the destruction of German Tiger I tanks.
I would certainly like to recommend the inclusion of Lady Takes a Flyer, (1958) where a P-51D features prominently in the final sequence when Lana Turner (as Magie Colby) crashes dramatically at the end of a perilous ferry flight to England. Bzuk 05:36, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
I have added to and ammended the "P-51s in Film" section with appropriate entries. Bzuk 13:36, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
Should a mention be added of the P-51s in Flags of our Fathers? There were more shots of them in that film than there were in Saving Private Ryan.
I wrote the original entry about Battle Hymn. I'm a personal friend and something of a literary protege of Colonel Hess. I wrote that they were F-51Ds, but someone changed it to F-51Ks. A close examination of the propellers of the Mustangs used in the film shows that they were apparently a mix of Ds and Ks. However, records indicate that Colonel Hess's real-life mount, ROKAF #18, was indeed a D. I'm revising this entry as "F-51D/Ks".
Lyle F. Padilla (lpadilla@voicenet.com)
P-51D's representing the Tuskegee Airmen of the 99th Squadron were used in the movie "Hart's War."
P-51B/Cs and P-51Ds were used in the movie Tuskegee Airman. To see fine examples of P-51B/Cs look up CAF P-51C Tuskegee Airman or Kermit Weeks P-51C Ina the Macon Belle. Rsmalec52 02:59, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
4,950 aircraft shot down (about half of all USAAF claims in the European theatre), and 4,131 destroyed on the ground. Losses were about 840 aircraft.
--
4,950 air, 4,131 in ground and only lost 840? This is sad, really sad and also has nothing to do with the reality, try to come up with better and more numbers.
1. Germans did not lose this many aircrafts to Mustangs. 2. They shot down and or effected damage which led to write offs to more than 840, several fold.
The Luftwaffe was decimated by the 8th, 9th and 15th AF fighters in 1944-5; that is a fact. In the 18 months or so the P-51 was in action the Luftwaffe in fact inflicted far less losses than the 840 stated; many of these P-51 losses were to flak and ground fire while strafing; see for example the 355th Fighter Group record as evidence (although they also include P-47 losses the principle is proven)- 365 air claims, 505 ground kills, for 191 aircraft lost, of which just 46 losses were due to Luftwaffe fighters, and 83 to flak (and the balance due to non-combat causes) But if you have access to more verifiable figures for kill claims and losses then by all means please share them with us- otherwise the numbers here have to remain (which derive from several sources including the definitive 'The Mighty Eighth' tome.) [[ Harryurz 12:09, 27 October 2006 (UTC)]]
Well on the other hand, you cant compare the victories and losses and say, this plane was better then the others. Because of the fact, that the Luftwaffe was badly needed on the more important eastern front, there were far less german planes that have to deal with British and US planes. I think when there are 5 people fighting with one unlucky guy in the streets, you cant clearly say the winners are the better fighters. Also the primary targets of the Luftwaffe Fighters which had to be destroyed were the Bombers, not their escorts. So everyone should be clear now, that these numbers up there aren´t "real" dogfight statistics and cannot say that this plane was more effective then the british and german ones. I think this should be noticed in the article because in my humble opinion, the P-51 is more a propaganda star to have a popular plane (just like the spitfire.. the real working horse was the hurricane) and this image reflects itself in popculture until everybody believes it or want to believe it. And since Wikipedia is a neutral encyclopedia...
What is the section on Survivors trying to say? It looks to be a listing of aircraft held at an air museum. If so, it coudl use some better formatting and a better explaination. If it is more than that, or somethign else altogether, it definitely needs major rework.
-- Bill 01:42, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
What is the big scoop on the bottom of the airplane aft of the cockpit? Intercooler? More could be said about the aerodynamic and performance reasons for the distinctive look of this and other iconic planes like the Spitfire and P-38.
I would like to say something regarding the actual design of the Mustang.It does in fact look like a weird combination of British and American design-the pointed nose and elegant body shape of a British plane and the square wing tips of an American. The plane was designed exactly to British RAF specifications-and looks it.I wonder therefore just what percentage of US design work went into it.I suggest very little-except perhaps for those wings-though maybe the British wanted to have a plane sightly more suitable as a dive bomber so they needed stronger wings—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Aberdale ( talk • contribs).
Well I think the fact that it was made good by a British engine might make it not quite 100% US... 86.133.50.99 ( talk) 09:39, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
It is my understanding of WP:Air/PC guidelines that the lead pic (the one in the info box) should be one that shows the aircraft best, from several angles. I prefer to use color pics, period pics or recent, but that's a preferrence, not a requirment.
Recently, I have noticed a trend in articles on older aircraft to replace the color lead pic witha BW one. This in itself is not bad. However, these pics are usually of poorer quality than the ones they replace, mostly commonly being too dark to really see the aircraft well.
I see no reason why this type of dark BW pic should be in the lead in this article, especially whth so many good pics out there (BW and color). However, Signaleer, the only user on Wiki with an exemption from the 3RR policy, added this dark pic himself, and so feels that qualifies the pic for the lead spot on that basis alone.
Talking to him is usually pointless, as he is also the only adult on Wiki, and therefore always right. It's bad enough he reverts any constructive changes made, but he insists on having TWO copies of his pic in the article. But I'm only a child, so I guess I just don't understand that Wikipedia is here to do Signaleer's will. - BillCJ 01:14, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
This is how he responds to people:
Rather than deal with the issue at hand, and try to form a consensus, and follow it whether it goes his way or not, he just wants his way! And I'm not the only person he does this to - is this way whenever anyone disagrees with him.
In response, NO! Grow up, and learn to get along with others, even if you don't get your way. If I see something that looks bad on an article, I'm NOT going to check the history first to see who did it. For the record, I had no idea Signaleer posted that pic, or even uploaded, and frankly I DO NOT CARE. Who made the edit has nothing to do with it being a good edit or not. I'm not going to play that game. - BillCJ 03:32, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Oh and deleting userboxes off of user pages is not my idea of adult behavior, and I'm not going to start in order to be considered an adult. Nor am I going to revert incessantly, deleting others contrubutions in the process, or search out articles other have edited to insert thumb sizings against WP:AIR consensus. If this is what adult behavior is, as that's what Signaleer claims to be, then I guess I'll never grow up! - BillCJ 03:43, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
That's your right to change the image, I can revert all I want.
--
Signaleer
16:47, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Go cry to someone else about your petty threats Akr.
--
Signaleer
17:29, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
I suggest you talk to Akradecki about that as well, is he an administrator? Does he have the power to block me? If you don't consider this statement "When it's against the consensus view, that's considered vandalism, and if you pursue it enough, will lead to another block." not to be a threat, then I suggest you re-examine my statement and his. - Signaleer 18:47, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
As far as the BW photograph, have you people considered the context of the subject matter for an ioda? The P-51 Mustang was used most heavily and designed for World War II. Not a modern Airshow, context of the subject matter people. - Signaleer 18:49, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Again, I just want the best pics for the article, esp in the lead. I hope we can find a great period pic to replace the current lead pic soon, and I am looking for one. - BillCJ 19:05, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
So the consensus and majority win on Wikipedia? Gee, I didn't know that. I suggest someone goes into the Wikipedia Guidelines and change that. Go for it Bill! If the majority does make the rules and decisions, you should hop over to the WASP page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Women_Airforce_Service_Pilots and help your buddy Akradeckiout because he's losing 2 to 1 right now. - Signaleer 19:30, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
I did not think that a genuine effort to improve the article would get such a disruptive response, especially given that that image had been uploaded without discussion itself. We can play that game forever and not get anywhere.
Yes, looking outside Commons is an option, one that I had hoped others with experiance at doing that could tackle. I know my own limits in dealing with copyrights, and the image-nazis have enough to do as it is without me adding more for them to go after! :) It's never been a matter of me having my own way, but of improving the article. There is nothing wrong with having your pics in the article, and I have been careful to keep the pic in question in a relevant section of the article. But there are better pics that can serve as the lead, yet your position seems to be that only yours should be there. How about we put the pic that was there before you replaced it without discussion? Would you accept that?
Note that you have yet to actually address any of the issues regarding the pic itself being a poor choice for the lead, and the reasons for that. At this point it doesn't matter who did what, but how we go about solving the issue. Or is the issue that I have "dissed" you by rejecting your choice of lead pic, and therefore nothing I say or do can be considered? - BillCJ 20:27, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Again, has nothing to do with why an dark, blobby pic taken years before either of us were born should be in the lead spot of an article many are attempting to improve. - BillCJ 00:12, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Should this article use Template:Infobox_Military_aircraft? -- Gbleem 03:55, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm removing my experiment in consensus development, as it seems to be a moot point now...that' a gorgeous pic, Bzuk! Akradecki 04:23, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
How about a definition/translation? Clarityfiend 00:01, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
This article states the H model was too late to see service in WW-II. William Green's series on WW-II fighters (c.1961) says the H model was used briefly in service against Japan, just before the end of the war. Are there any other references on this issue? Karl Kleimenhagen 10:30, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Hello. Just wondering if the section on operational service (during WW2) in the P-51 Mustang article needs some info on non-American users? Pretty sure that British, Canadian and Polish Mustangs saw action. Cheers Chwyatt 13:21, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-51_Mustang#Operational_service
In all the years I've been reading about the P-51, I've never came across this one: "Because North American lacked a suitable wind tunnel, it was forced to use Curtiss’ facility." This is absolutely not true. Many available sources agree that the wind tunnel work on the NA73 largely took place at Caltech (in Pasadena, California, just a few miles over the hills from North American's plant in Inglewood, not 2500 miles away at the 'Curtiss facility' in Buffalo, New York!). When the Caltech facility proved too small to obtain satisfactory results with the new wing, the model was transported to the University of Washington's larger wind tunnel in Seattle.
I remember reading several years ago an article (I believe in Air Classics magazine) authored by Ed Horkey, who was the chief aerodynamicist for the Mustang. He confirmed the purchase of the Curtiss data, but he also stated very little of the information was used. He dismissed the data as "amaturish and of little value."
The statement "The United States Army Air Corps could block any sales it considered interesting, and this appeared to be the case for the NA-73," seems somewhat a misrepresentation. Under the terms of Lend-Lease, aircraft exports effectively had to be of designs either in use by or under procurement for the Army Air Corp; the Brits could not independently sponsor the development of a new design in the States unless they paid for it directly. To comply with the rules of Lend-Lease, the Army had to "procure" the "defense article" (hence the assignment of the "XP-51" nomenclature) to be 'disposed of,' and the Army got to retain what became their two prototypes at the pleasure of the Chief of Staff of the Army. This 'procurement' also served to keep the Army abreast of the machinery (and hence the technology) being sold abroad.
One more point, this regarding the A-36. The US Army Air Corp was never very interested in dedicated dive bombers. A very few Douglas Dauntless and Curtiss Helldiver airframes were procured, as the A-24 & A-25 respectively, but they never saw much use. The A-36 came about because of prewar budget constraints. Lt. Benjamin Kelsey, at that time the Army's Fighter Projects Officer, realized the potential of the new P-51 design, but he had no more money in his FY 1941 pot for the development of a new Pursuit airframe. Funds were available, however, for the development of another Attack design. With war seemingly inevitable, rather than risking the problems that could arise from an interruption of production at Inglewood until further funding for Pursuits became available, he obtained authorization for the development and production of the A-36, with changes to the airframe necessitated to fit into the framework of the US Army's Attack mission role. The 500 examples built turned out to be money well spent, despite the Army's typical lukewarm attitude toward dive bombers.
On the positive side, THANK YOU for NOT revisiting the old myth about the British stipulating a limit of 120 days to build the first airplane!
192.100.70.210
20:57, 10 July 2007 (UTC)CBsHellcat
Under the subheading P-51 Pilot Medal of Honor recipients there is the statement that Major Sebille "continued his attacks until finally deliberately diving his Mustang into an enemy antiaircraft battery". That infers suicide to me, which I don't think is intended. We know he was deliberately diving to attack an anti aircraft battery, obviously against horrendous odds and at extreme risk to his own safety. We can assume he intended to pull out of the dive but died because he was hit by fire from the battery. I think we do him a great disservice by saying he deliberately dived into the aircraft battery. Thoughts anyone? Moriori 02:38, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
Anybody have a source for reputed ditching problems where the big ventral scoop interfered with a smooth water landing? I vaguely recall something about that... I guess the same goes for belly landings. Binksternet 09:03, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
This evening I chatted with a friend who happens to be the pilot in the P-51 in this image (free use image deleted by bot), and I asked him what the instructions were re ditching. His response was - don't and never ever unless there was absolutely no other option, because the aircraft would nose in (with the scoop being only part of the problem). He said it was drummed into them that if the aircraft over water needed to be vacated the preference was always to bail out rather than ditch. He also said that to bail out, the seat needed to be lowered as far as it would go and the pilot needed to scrunch down as low as he could, because when released the canopy tended to lift from the back and pivot the front of it forward, meaning the top front of it was acting a little like a rearward projecting guillotine right where the top of the pilot's head would normally be located. Curiously enough, although my mate was lucky enough to never having to splash a P-51, he did ditch a TBF Avenger in the Waitemata Harbour in New Zealand after engine failure. The three on board escaped injury, luckily. Moriori 08:10, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
I finally got a copy of the actual F-51D Mustang Flight Handbook, T.O. No. IF-51D-1, 20 January 1954 and the exact wording in the "Ditching" section reads:
"Warning: Airplane will sink in approximately 2 sec." Further, the manual states "The airplane should be ditched only as a last resort. If it is impossible to maintain sufficient altitude for bail-out, ditch according to the following procedure:
A three-part diagram illustrating the ditching procedure accompanied the instructions." FWIW Bzuk 18:40, 5 September 2007 (UTC).
Question on the first paragraph-It lists the "Definitive version powered by the Packard V-1650-3 engine." I don't want to start a flamewar over which version was definitive, but if we agree the defninitive version was the P-51D, then it should be the V-1650-7 engine; only the P-51D-1-NA's sent to CAC for license-construction had the V-1650-3; all other D's had the -7 engine. -gale_dono —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.74.89.142 ( talk) 12:21, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
If the fascinating pilot anecdote which follows is anything to go by, the P-51 does seem to have been a "ditching death-trap", relative at least to other WW2 fighters and the scoop does seem to have been a significant factor:
Grant | Talk 06:06, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
See also this official history: The Army Air Forces in World War II, Volume Seven: Services Around the World, p.483 Grant | Talk 06:26, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
Sure, although the P-51 is also singled out in the official history cite above: "Only once was the P-51 known to have ditched successfully, and this minor miracle could not be repeated deliberately since the pilot lost consciousness and therewith all memory of his technique. Normally the radiator scoop of the Mustang plowed the plane under at impact." A remarkable factoid, if it is true; it doesn't appear that the author is referring to Lt Scott. Grant | Talk 04:36, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
23:03, 20 December 2006 Bzuk (Talk | contribs) m (Needs a rewrite- how about separating the variants and putting out a new article?)
Okay, but let's "tighten it up" as it is a very long article. Bzuk 18:26, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Just a minor point, but one not often described is the different propeller used Post-WW2: The "cuffed" Hamilton Standard unit was replaced with a unit using slightly wider "uncuffed" blades with blunter tips, and a slightly shorter spinner.. I thought it would be worthwhile mentioning this small change in the P-51D/K section. Minorhistorian ( talk) 23:10, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm curious what the sentence "Test pilot Hatton was the first to fly this aircraft" refers to. It is well known that Vance Breese was the first pilot to fly the NA-73X on 26 October 1940. If you require a reference, Mustang At War by Roger A. Freeman (Ian Allen LTD, London, 1974) is the closest source to hand, but very many other sources will agree. Paul Balfour flew it next (on it's fifth flight), and, as the story goes, Breese won a bet that Balfour would crash the airplane on his first flight in it. 71.228.225.234 08:46, 1 December 2007 (UTC)CBsHellcat
So after my edit was reverted, I've looked at the overall structure of the article and wonder if doing something like the B-17 article might not be applicable here. Could we move the variants section into the development paragraph and move the more specific detailed entries about variants that precede this awkwardly placed variants specific section into a new article on P-51 variants? Would that make sense to people? Wouldn't take much effort to achieve the shift. -- Thatguy96 ( talk) 02:26, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Surprised Gorings famous quote "When I saw Mustangs over Berlin, I knew the jig was up" isn't in the article. 193.35.129.169 ( talk) 23:47, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
I've done a bit of rewriting of the "Merlin Engine Mustangs" which, I hope, has helped clarify the sequence of events and the armament; for example, the description of the reasons why dorsal fins were fitted to D/Ks didn't make it sufficiently clear that the flight problems first came to light in B/Cs fitted with the fuselage fuel tank.
Also the significant differences between the Mustang Xs and the XP-51Bs was a little blurry and it was a little unclear that the American version reached production. Plus I couldn't resist describing some of the main experimental Mustangs. Hope the additions haven't lengthened things too much. Minorhistorian ( talk) 12:58, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
"Also, two aircraft of this lot were fitted with Packard-built Merlin engines mounted BEHIND the cockpit, in the fashion of the P-39.[10] This was identified as Model NA-101 by North American and XP-78 by the USAAF, later redesignated XP-51B." Ahhh yeah rrrright...moving the engine behind the cockpit - the CoG movement must have been.....rather difficult to deal with.... not to mention the structural changes etc... I think someone is indulging in a bit of leg pulling —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.234.130.110 ( talk) 10:38, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Cant find any evidence that it was not just a re-engine job here is at least two references that make no mention other than an engine swop:
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help)Here is an image of 41-37352 [2] from [3], I wonder if somebody presumed the new radiator was an intake! MilborneOne ( talk) 13:20, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Hi guys, notice that someone has written that the P51 was known as the 'best Israeli fighter' However most of the Israeli pilots rate the SPitfire IX as the best fighter plane they had. PLease change this part.
See quotes from the real pilots :-
h**p://101squadron.com/101/aircraft.html
Two examples from the interviews on there...
'Gordon Levett compares the three combat aircraft flown by the 101:
In mock dog-fights, we concluded that the Messerschmitt could out-climb, out-dive and out-zoom the Spitfire and Mustang. The Spitfire could out-turn the Messerschmitt, the most important manoeuvre in air combat, and both could out-turn the Mustang. The Mustang was the fastest, the Messerschmitt the slowest, though there was not much in it. The Mustang had the best visibility, important for a fighter aircraft, the Messerschmitt the worst. The Spitfire cockpit fitted like a glove, the Messerschmitt like a strait-jacket, the Mustang like a too comfortable armchair. The Spitfire had two 20-mm cannon and four .303-in machine guns (sic; actually, the 101 Squadron Spits had two .50s, not four .303s), the Mustang six 12.7-mm machine guns (i.e. .50-calibre), and the Messerschmitt two 20-mm cannon and two 7.92-mm machine guns (sic; actually two 13.1-mm machine guns) synchronised to fire through the arc of the propeller.... Despite the pros and cons the Spitfire was everyone's first choice. (Levett 1994)'
'Syd Antin enjoyed his Mustang time:
Wonderful airplane. Great airplane. But for our situation there, not as good as the Spitfire. The reason? The Mustang was built for longer range, it was a heavier aircraft - it could not maneuver as tightly as the Spitfire. The Spitfire was designed and built as a short-range fighter. You gotta remember that all it had to was cross the English Channel and it was in a war zone. The Mustang was designed and built to escort long-range bombers and to defend them in the air. Consequently, it had to have more armament and more fuel capacity, so it was heavier and it couldn't maneuver anywhere near as good as the Spitfire.
The Mustang? Great, I loved that airplane. For our job over there, for combat, we only had to fly a few miles to get to it so we didn't need the long range.'
Xiolablu3 ( talk) 17:00, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
I had dinner several days in a row recently with Tom Reilly who told me he just bought two Roll Royce Merlin engines for his XP-82 Twin Mustang restoration back to flying project. Unlike the later F-82, that is exactly the same engine as in P-51B, C and D. I asked him about the horse power in those engines at 61 inches of manifold pressure, wich according to pilot manual is the max take-off power. Without even blinking he answered "1490 hp!" "But...." he continued "... a lot of people seems to mix up the displacement of 1650 cubic inches with the horsepower, but that is incorrect!" It should be noted for those of you who do not know who the hell Tom is, that he has accumulated a massive experience in restoring warbirds back to flying condition since way before people started calling them "Warbirds"! I've heard this abot the horse power several times before from other people working with Mustangs that are flying today. The WEP of 67 inches of manifold pressure, also called "Get-The-Hell-Out-Of-Here-Power-Setting!!" would give about 100 extra hp for a very limited time. Not even that adds up to 1650 hp! So the question is, who dares to correct this long line of missinformation that the engine in a P-51D has 1650 hp when it should say only 1490 hp? -- Towpilot ( talk) 21:32, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
An editor keeps putting the retirement date of the six Dominican Republic P-51's into the infobox. I changed it to the retirement date of USAF use as this was OVERWHELMINGLY an American aircraft. The retirement date for Dominican service is important maybe as a footnote under the "Users" section but is highly misleading in the infobox. -- Nukes4Tots ( talk) 14:49, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
Compromise what? This is a concensus building exercise, not a negotiation. You're speaking about a drop in the bucket... 6 planes out of 16,000 that 'served' in a tiny nation... a statistical blip. You're making it out to be something significant. -- Nukes4Tots ( talk) 16:24, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
What about all the other aircraft that served after 1957? There were HUNDREDS of examples in service after 1957. Do we not count those? The Mig-21 is used in large numbers by many countries, but no longer used by Russia. Should we say that it is now retired? The part of the article we are talking about states when the aircraft was retired. Anyone would assume that would mean MILITARY service. Saying it was retired in 1957 is incorrect.
The F-51 was used as a MILITARY aircraft for almost 30 years after the USAF stopped using it. I was willing to compromise with you and put both dates down, as other articles have (look at Me-109 article). Don't be so stubborn.-- Panzertank ( talk) 16:41, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
I see, so you ask for a concensus, and now two people agree and since they don’t agree with you it is absurd. It is absurd to say an aircraft is retired after it is used for almost thirty in an operational military role.
When the USAF retired their F-51s, the Dominican Air Force had more than forty F-51s in service. That is almost as many fighter aircraft that Mexico and Central America had combined. The F-51 saw combat in Central America and Asia after 1957. HUNDREDS of aircraft remained in service after 1957. It is irrelevant that the USAF retired it in 1957. F-51s were used as operational military aircraft until 1984. I am reverting it to read the type was retired in 1984. I will revert it everyday if I have to.-- Panzertank ( talk) 03:05, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
I totally agree with Panzertank!! To deny that there was any significant service of the F-51 beyond 1957 is ABSURD! The last ten airplanes were retired by the Dominicans in May 1984. One was kept for museum, the other nine and the entire stock of spare parts were sold to Brian O'Farrell/Johnson Aviation in Miami, Florida! We are talking about an airplane that saw combat more than ten years after retirement from USAAF. If that's not "significant service", what is? -- Towpilot ( talk) 07:30, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
Cannon were superior air-to-air weapons in many respects than heavy machine guns, but not due to superior penetration. If anything, the .50 cal probably had superior penetration to any 20mm or even 30mm cannon mounted in any airplane I know of. The cannon caused more structural damage by exploding, which is more efficient than punching holes, but the .50 was better at piercing armor. If you doubt this there are numerous ballistics tables available on the internet.
[Drifter Bob]
Drifter-cannons had a lower rate of fire and poor spread. Cannons were effective close in and against jets. The spray of .50 cal AP was devastating.
The maximum speed of the P-51H is incorrect. It was approximately 487mph, not 444mph.
Hi, I added the little trivia part. Feel free to remove it if it dosn't feat with the article.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Adrien Chatillon ( talk • contribs) 19:27, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
As iconic as the P-51 is, it seems as though it's article should have a Pop-Culture section. One could mention things such as its use in Grand Theft Auto (San Andreas), or Chuck Yeager's love of its manuverability.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.215.27.164 ( talk) 09:30, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Seems to me long ago I read that there were about five P-51D-1-NAs built with the razorback as opposed to the bubble canopy. The bubble canopy started with the D-5s. Any info on the D-1s? AMCKen ( talk) 04:59, 25 March 2009 (UTC)AMCKen
That sounds more like the P-47 to me. The term "Razorback D" for a P-51 is an oxymoron! PhantomWSO ( talk) 18:54, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
This article has always stated that the P-51 was armed with Browning M2 .50 caliber guns. I've seen several sources stating that it they were actually Colt MG53 .50 caliber machine guns. I believe that the MG53 was a derivative of the M2, but it had its own nomenclature and was definitely different enough to be considered a different weapon from the M2 and not a variant of it. Anyone know the actual story? PhantomWSO ( talk) 19:06, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
The new paragraph added by Gian piero milanetti appears to me to be a way to bring the Veltro to this article and show it in a good light. We have peacock words to describe the aircraft and we have a total of 58 Mustangs shot down by Veltros "at a high price". How many Veltros were shot down by Mustangs? I'd like to see the paragraph greatly reduced to be a straight telling of how tough the two adversaries were to each other, without going into detail about the Veltro. Binksternet ( talk) 20:14, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
I took a new Mustang website out of External links per WP:NOTLINK which says
“ | Wikipedia articles are not... mere collections of external links or Internet directories. There is nothing wrong with adding one or more useful content-relevant links to an article; however, excessive lists can dwarf articles and detract from the purpose of Wikipedia. On articles about topics with many fansites, for example, including a link to one major fansite may be appropriate. | ” |
I believe we have enough external links, and possibly too many. Should we trim further? Delete all but one? Should we let the new one back in and allow the list to grow? Binksternet ( talk) 15:41, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
I think the treatment of the choice of engine is very confusing. The early paragraph suggests the plane began in response to a British request and it had a Packard engine. Then there is a section on planes with the Alison engine. Does anyone have a clear time line of the engine decisiion? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.169.162.100 ( talk) 09:22, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
I came across this; P-51 research
a research paper on the "Mustang as an Escort Fighter" submitted in 1996 to the Air War College, Air War University by a Lt Col Karen Daneu. It can be downloaded as a PDF file. Worth adding to External Links? Minorhistorian ( talk) 22:49, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
I think the article needs a section on the countries and units that used the P-51, in what numbers and when. It was a very popular plane, if only for a short time. Grant65 (Talk) 16:07, August 11, 2005 (UTC)
I tried to start a Foreign Service section to answer that question. I'll complete it later on... Any help would be welcome, though.
I understand from an air show documentary that, when landing, the pilots can't see the landing strip in front of them due to the angle at which it lands, nose-up. Is this correct ? If so, this just seems insane to me, and sure enough a pilot died during the air show because of this lack of visibility. Why don't they put some cameras on it (perhaps in the landing gear) for air shows so they overcome this blatant deficiency ? We now have small, inexpensive radio-transmission cameras which would suit the bill nicely. Has anyone so equipped a P-51 ? I'd like to create a subsection on this visibility issue once I have all the facts straight. Does anyone know how many have died due to this problem ? StuRat ( talk) 14:39, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
-- On page 51 of "FLY NAVY" by Phil Kaplan there is a discussion of the top secret "Seahorse" project. In late 1944 Naval Aviator and later test pilot Bob Elder flew carrier trials with a modified P-51D. There was great concern at the time regarding the ability to escort B-29s on bombing raids over Japan. The Seahorse project was cancelled after Iwo Jima was taken by the U.S. Marine Corps and its airfields used for P-51 escort missions. The Seahorse was not a P-51H as cited in the wikipedia article. - LegacyDriver —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.128.151.188 ( talk) 04:07, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
ÁHi, I wrote a very big portion of the article. Most of the information was taken from
my own site, so that obviously there's no problem with copyright. --
Uriyan
Added some stats (climb rate, ferry range) from
http://www.319th.com/p51.htm and specified P-51D for the climb.
Chairboy 15:15, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Inconsistency: Me 262 page says "The Tempest was the first Allied plane to shoot down a Me262 ..." though this page says "Chuck Yeager, flying a P-51D, was the first Allied pilot to shoot down a Me 262 ..." Mjs
The sentence "The transformed Mustang could outfly anything in the air including the latest British fighters" was Revised as of 07:56, 17 July 2005 to "Although the Mustang could not live with the Supermarine Spitfire in a dogfight, its extra range with the use of drop tanks, enabled the mark to excel as bomber escort. ". please see Talk:Supermarine Spitfire (late Merlin powered variants) for a discussion on the two statments. -- Philip Baird Shearer 20:02, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
How can that be explained: the maximum speed of the P 51 is given with 784 km/h. The record set by a Me 209 was 755 km/h, which was valid until 1969, when an F8F reached a new record speed for piston-engined aircraft. Astonishing, too? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.66.92.57 ( talk) 14:06, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
One aircraft was passed to the British who gave it the name Mustang I (Dive Bomber).
I have a British aircraft recognition handbook from around 1943/44 that states that the British name for the A-36 dive bomber variant of the Mustang was Invader I (I don't mean the Douglas B-26/A26 one!) - If anyone wants a scan of the handbook entry then drop me a line via my e-mail link. Ian Dunster 15:55, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
http://www.vectorsite.net/avp51.html is my source on that information. Seeing as the A-36 was originally named the Invader this could also be true. I don't know what Greg Geobel's source on that information is. --
Thatguy96
23:30, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/boundforglory/images/bg0066.jpg
A-36--an early P-51 variant that had a different engine and flew ground attack instead of dogfighting with 4x20mm cannons. Someone who knows HTML should do linky stuff.
Photo looks great. But which variant is it?
I have some issues with the section labeled "Effects of the P-51", ranging from timeline to generalizations of cause and effect that led to the employment of the Mustang as the escort fighter of choice in the ETO. The summary of the heavy bomber effort in particular is skewed, and while the conclusion is correct (i.e. heavy losses led directly to the conversion of all but one P-47 and P-38 groups in England to the P-51), this is supposed to be an encyclopedia, so generalizations should be accurate. The literature on heavy bomber operations is massive, and I have most of it in my library, so I will attempt to correct the section without turning it into an article on heavies. 131.238.92.62 08:36, 3 February 2006 (UTC)Buckboard 00:17, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
This article claims that most Allied bomber losses were to rocket-firing German aircraft. This is wrong. The Gr.21 rockets were wildly inaccurate and were used only in an attempt to scatter bomber formations. Guns, big guns and bigger guns was what the fighters used. - Emt147 Burninate! 16:57, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
There is a problem with the range, which states 1000 miles, and 1600 km with drop tanks. But 1600 km is only 994 miles.
Maybe I'm being a bit too strict, but to some people, it might seem that the Mustang P-51 is the very modern F-14 or F-15 in the back (I can't tell which it is). Maybe somebody could put up a picture with only the P-51 Mustang as the main article picture? Marcos Juárez 22:32, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
Under the heading Comparable Aircraft the article lists the CAC Kangaroo. The Kangaroo never went into production so isn't Comparable stretching it a bit. What say you? Moriori 21:46, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
- maru (talk) - contribs 00:16, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
"In 1946, the designation P-51D (P for pursuit) was changed to F-51D (F for fighter) because of a new designation scheme throughout the USAF." Spot the problem...
I have hung back from doing this, but the problem just won't seem to go away. The claim of "free hunting" in "May of 1944" needs to sourced. The idea of strafing airfields on an organized and sanctioned basis came as early as January 1944 when Hap Arnold sent a directive to Kepner calling for it. The first organized hunting mission occured in March 1944. The sanctioning of strafing airfields on the way home from escort missions began at the same time. P-51 enthusiasts are dipping into mythology on this point--if you have the source, put it up--at least here. Secondly, the scorekeeping regarding kills is grossly misleading. Only three of the 38 fighter groups in the ETO flew the P-51 exclusively in WWII--the 339th, 354th, and 357th. All the others flew something else--the P-47 or P-38 primarily--before some of them converted to the Mustang. Those that converted had some high-scoring P-47 totals--such as the 355th and 78th groups. To atrribute all the kills and all the losses to P-51s, again without sourcing, is grossly misleading. This can be a good article, but only if we get beyond the rah-rah chatter for an admittedly superior aircraft.--Buckboard 23:25, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
[1] has many more pictures. I can't read the text. -- Gbleem 22:06, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
Much of that section (aside from violating WP:AVTRIV) does not pass the "notability" criteria. Let's examine:
Spielberg's 1998 film, Saving Private Ryan, also features the P-51D, at the end of the final battle in the fictional French town of Ramelle. The small squadron, referred to as "tank busters" by Private Ryan himself, destroys a small detachment of German Tiger I tanks and lends air support to Captain Miller's platoon as they defend a strategic bridge. (The film's website states "P-51s were used instead of the more suitable P-47s, because it is possible P-47s could not be obtained").
I removed the text which was restored by another editor because apparently every P-51 appearance, no matter how short or insignificant, should be documented. To quote the consensus-derived contents guidelines at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Aircraft/page_content, A "Popular Culture" section should be avoided per Wikipedia:Avoid trivia sections in articles unless the appearances are especially notable. This section should not be a compendium of every trivial appearance, but significant ones of relevance to the airframe. The canonical example would be Top Gun for the F-14 Tomcat. Due to the large number of survey and arcade simulations, an effort should be made to avoid tallying every sim appearance unless there are very few of them. Fictional versions and speculation about fictional likenesses should not be included, as they constitute original research. Can I get some opinions on whether irrelevant 5-second film clips constitute notability? - Emt147 Burninate! 18:35, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Although I tend to agree with the above comments as to the significance of the P-51 in the "film" section, I think a revising of the "Saving Private Ryan" section would be appropriate. How about this: Spielberg's 1998 film, Saving Private Ryan, features the P-51D briefly, at the end of the final battle in the fictional French town of Ramelle, in the destruction of German Tiger I tanks.
I would certainly like to recommend the inclusion of Lady Takes a Flyer, (1958) where a P-51D features prominently in the final sequence when Lana Turner (as Magie Colby) crashes dramatically at the end of a perilous ferry flight to England. Bzuk 05:36, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
I have added to and ammended the "P-51s in Film" section with appropriate entries. Bzuk 13:36, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
Should a mention be added of the P-51s in Flags of our Fathers? There were more shots of them in that film than there were in Saving Private Ryan.
I wrote the original entry about Battle Hymn. I'm a personal friend and something of a literary protege of Colonel Hess. I wrote that they were F-51Ds, but someone changed it to F-51Ks. A close examination of the propellers of the Mustangs used in the film shows that they were apparently a mix of Ds and Ks. However, records indicate that Colonel Hess's real-life mount, ROKAF #18, was indeed a D. I'm revising this entry as "F-51D/Ks".
Lyle F. Padilla (lpadilla@voicenet.com)
P-51D's representing the Tuskegee Airmen of the 99th Squadron were used in the movie "Hart's War."
P-51B/Cs and P-51Ds were used in the movie Tuskegee Airman. To see fine examples of P-51B/Cs look up CAF P-51C Tuskegee Airman or Kermit Weeks P-51C Ina the Macon Belle. Rsmalec52 02:59, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
4,950 aircraft shot down (about half of all USAAF claims in the European theatre), and 4,131 destroyed on the ground. Losses were about 840 aircraft.
--
4,950 air, 4,131 in ground and only lost 840? This is sad, really sad and also has nothing to do with the reality, try to come up with better and more numbers.
1. Germans did not lose this many aircrafts to Mustangs. 2. They shot down and or effected damage which led to write offs to more than 840, several fold.
The Luftwaffe was decimated by the 8th, 9th and 15th AF fighters in 1944-5; that is a fact. In the 18 months or so the P-51 was in action the Luftwaffe in fact inflicted far less losses than the 840 stated; many of these P-51 losses were to flak and ground fire while strafing; see for example the 355th Fighter Group record as evidence (although they also include P-47 losses the principle is proven)- 365 air claims, 505 ground kills, for 191 aircraft lost, of which just 46 losses were due to Luftwaffe fighters, and 83 to flak (and the balance due to non-combat causes) But if you have access to more verifiable figures for kill claims and losses then by all means please share them with us- otherwise the numbers here have to remain (which derive from several sources including the definitive 'The Mighty Eighth' tome.) [[ Harryurz 12:09, 27 October 2006 (UTC)]]
Well on the other hand, you cant compare the victories and losses and say, this plane was better then the others. Because of the fact, that the Luftwaffe was badly needed on the more important eastern front, there were far less german planes that have to deal with British and US planes. I think when there are 5 people fighting with one unlucky guy in the streets, you cant clearly say the winners are the better fighters. Also the primary targets of the Luftwaffe Fighters which had to be destroyed were the Bombers, not their escorts. So everyone should be clear now, that these numbers up there aren´t "real" dogfight statistics and cannot say that this plane was more effective then the british and german ones. I think this should be noticed in the article because in my humble opinion, the P-51 is more a propaganda star to have a popular plane (just like the spitfire.. the real working horse was the hurricane) and this image reflects itself in popculture until everybody believes it or want to believe it. And since Wikipedia is a neutral encyclopedia...
What is the section on Survivors trying to say? It looks to be a listing of aircraft held at an air museum. If so, it coudl use some better formatting and a better explaination. If it is more than that, or somethign else altogether, it definitely needs major rework.
-- Bill 01:42, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
What is the big scoop on the bottom of the airplane aft of the cockpit? Intercooler? More could be said about the aerodynamic and performance reasons for the distinctive look of this and other iconic planes like the Spitfire and P-38.
I would like to say something regarding the actual design of the Mustang.It does in fact look like a weird combination of British and American design-the pointed nose and elegant body shape of a British plane and the square wing tips of an American. The plane was designed exactly to British RAF specifications-and looks it.I wonder therefore just what percentage of US design work went into it.I suggest very little-except perhaps for those wings-though maybe the British wanted to have a plane sightly more suitable as a dive bomber so they needed stronger wings—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Aberdale ( talk • contribs).
Well I think the fact that it was made good by a British engine might make it not quite 100% US... 86.133.50.99 ( talk) 09:39, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
It is my understanding of WP:Air/PC guidelines that the lead pic (the one in the info box) should be one that shows the aircraft best, from several angles. I prefer to use color pics, period pics or recent, but that's a preferrence, not a requirment.
Recently, I have noticed a trend in articles on older aircraft to replace the color lead pic witha BW one. This in itself is not bad. However, these pics are usually of poorer quality than the ones they replace, mostly commonly being too dark to really see the aircraft well.
I see no reason why this type of dark BW pic should be in the lead in this article, especially whth so many good pics out there (BW and color). However, Signaleer, the only user on Wiki with an exemption from the 3RR policy, added this dark pic himself, and so feels that qualifies the pic for the lead spot on that basis alone.
Talking to him is usually pointless, as he is also the only adult on Wiki, and therefore always right. It's bad enough he reverts any constructive changes made, but he insists on having TWO copies of his pic in the article. But I'm only a child, so I guess I just don't understand that Wikipedia is here to do Signaleer's will. - BillCJ 01:14, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
This is how he responds to people:
Rather than deal with the issue at hand, and try to form a consensus, and follow it whether it goes his way or not, he just wants his way! And I'm not the only person he does this to - is this way whenever anyone disagrees with him.
In response, NO! Grow up, and learn to get along with others, even if you don't get your way. If I see something that looks bad on an article, I'm NOT going to check the history first to see who did it. For the record, I had no idea Signaleer posted that pic, or even uploaded, and frankly I DO NOT CARE. Who made the edit has nothing to do with it being a good edit or not. I'm not going to play that game. - BillCJ 03:32, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Oh and deleting userboxes off of user pages is not my idea of adult behavior, and I'm not going to start in order to be considered an adult. Nor am I going to revert incessantly, deleting others contrubutions in the process, or search out articles other have edited to insert thumb sizings against WP:AIR consensus. If this is what adult behavior is, as that's what Signaleer claims to be, then I guess I'll never grow up! - BillCJ 03:43, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
That's your right to change the image, I can revert all I want.
--
Signaleer
16:47, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Go cry to someone else about your petty threats Akr.
--
Signaleer
17:29, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
I suggest you talk to Akradecki about that as well, is he an administrator? Does he have the power to block me? If you don't consider this statement "When it's against the consensus view, that's considered vandalism, and if you pursue it enough, will lead to another block." not to be a threat, then I suggest you re-examine my statement and his. - Signaleer 18:47, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
As far as the BW photograph, have you people considered the context of the subject matter for an ioda? The P-51 Mustang was used most heavily and designed for World War II. Not a modern Airshow, context of the subject matter people. - Signaleer 18:49, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Again, I just want the best pics for the article, esp in the lead. I hope we can find a great period pic to replace the current lead pic soon, and I am looking for one. - BillCJ 19:05, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
So the consensus and majority win on Wikipedia? Gee, I didn't know that. I suggest someone goes into the Wikipedia Guidelines and change that. Go for it Bill! If the majority does make the rules and decisions, you should hop over to the WASP page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Women_Airforce_Service_Pilots and help your buddy Akradeckiout because he's losing 2 to 1 right now. - Signaleer 19:30, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
I did not think that a genuine effort to improve the article would get such a disruptive response, especially given that that image had been uploaded without discussion itself. We can play that game forever and not get anywhere.
Yes, looking outside Commons is an option, one that I had hoped others with experiance at doing that could tackle. I know my own limits in dealing with copyrights, and the image-nazis have enough to do as it is without me adding more for them to go after! :) It's never been a matter of me having my own way, but of improving the article. There is nothing wrong with having your pics in the article, and I have been careful to keep the pic in question in a relevant section of the article. But there are better pics that can serve as the lead, yet your position seems to be that only yours should be there. How about we put the pic that was there before you replaced it without discussion? Would you accept that?
Note that you have yet to actually address any of the issues regarding the pic itself being a poor choice for the lead, and the reasons for that. At this point it doesn't matter who did what, but how we go about solving the issue. Or is the issue that I have "dissed" you by rejecting your choice of lead pic, and therefore nothing I say or do can be considered? - BillCJ 20:27, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Again, has nothing to do with why an dark, blobby pic taken years before either of us were born should be in the lead spot of an article many are attempting to improve. - BillCJ 00:12, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Should this article use Template:Infobox_Military_aircraft? -- Gbleem 03:55, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm removing my experiment in consensus development, as it seems to be a moot point now...that' a gorgeous pic, Bzuk! Akradecki 04:23, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
How about a definition/translation? Clarityfiend 00:01, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
This article states the H model was too late to see service in WW-II. William Green's series on WW-II fighters (c.1961) says the H model was used briefly in service against Japan, just before the end of the war. Are there any other references on this issue? Karl Kleimenhagen 10:30, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Hello. Just wondering if the section on operational service (during WW2) in the P-51 Mustang article needs some info on non-American users? Pretty sure that British, Canadian and Polish Mustangs saw action. Cheers Chwyatt 13:21, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-51_Mustang#Operational_service
In all the years I've been reading about the P-51, I've never came across this one: "Because North American lacked a suitable wind tunnel, it was forced to use Curtiss’ facility." This is absolutely not true. Many available sources agree that the wind tunnel work on the NA73 largely took place at Caltech (in Pasadena, California, just a few miles over the hills from North American's plant in Inglewood, not 2500 miles away at the 'Curtiss facility' in Buffalo, New York!). When the Caltech facility proved too small to obtain satisfactory results with the new wing, the model was transported to the University of Washington's larger wind tunnel in Seattle.
I remember reading several years ago an article (I believe in Air Classics magazine) authored by Ed Horkey, who was the chief aerodynamicist for the Mustang. He confirmed the purchase of the Curtiss data, but he also stated very little of the information was used. He dismissed the data as "amaturish and of little value."
The statement "The United States Army Air Corps could block any sales it considered interesting, and this appeared to be the case for the NA-73," seems somewhat a misrepresentation. Under the terms of Lend-Lease, aircraft exports effectively had to be of designs either in use by or under procurement for the Army Air Corp; the Brits could not independently sponsor the development of a new design in the States unless they paid for it directly. To comply with the rules of Lend-Lease, the Army had to "procure" the "defense article" (hence the assignment of the "XP-51" nomenclature) to be 'disposed of,' and the Army got to retain what became their two prototypes at the pleasure of the Chief of Staff of the Army. This 'procurement' also served to keep the Army abreast of the machinery (and hence the technology) being sold abroad.
One more point, this regarding the A-36. The US Army Air Corp was never very interested in dedicated dive bombers. A very few Douglas Dauntless and Curtiss Helldiver airframes were procured, as the A-24 & A-25 respectively, but they never saw much use. The A-36 came about because of prewar budget constraints. Lt. Benjamin Kelsey, at that time the Army's Fighter Projects Officer, realized the potential of the new P-51 design, but he had no more money in his FY 1941 pot for the development of a new Pursuit airframe. Funds were available, however, for the development of another Attack design. With war seemingly inevitable, rather than risking the problems that could arise from an interruption of production at Inglewood until further funding for Pursuits became available, he obtained authorization for the development and production of the A-36, with changes to the airframe necessitated to fit into the framework of the US Army's Attack mission role. The 500 examples built turned out to be money well spent, despite the Army's typical lukewarm attitude toward dive bombers.
On the positive side, THANK YOU for NOT revisiting the old myth about the British stipulating a limit of 120 days to build the first airplane!
192.100.70.210
20:57, 10 July 2007 (UTC)CBsHellcat
Under the subheading P-51 Pilot Medal of Honor recipients there is the statement that Major Sebille "continued his attacks until finally deliberately diving his Mustang into an enemy antiaircraft battery". That infers suicide to me, which I don't think is intended. We know he was deliberately diving to attack an anti aircraft battery, obviously against horrendous odds and at extreme risk to his own safety. We can assume he intended to pull out of the dive but died because he was hit by fire from the battery. I think we do him a great disservice by saying he deliberately dived into the aircraft battery. Thoughts anyone? Moriori 02:38, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
Anybody have a source for reputed ditching problems where the big ventral scoop interfered with a smooth water landing? I vaguely recall something about that... I guess the same goes for belly landings. Binksternet 09:03, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
This evening I chatted with a friend who happens to be the pilot in the P-51 in this image (free use image deleted by bot), and I asked him what the instructions were re ditching. His response was - don't and never ever unless there was absolutely no other option, because the aircraft would nose in (with the scoop being only part of the problem). He said it was drummed into them that if the aircraft over water needed to be vacated the preference was always to bail out rather than ditch. He also said that to bail out, the seat needed to be lowered as far as it would go and the pilot needed to scrunch down as low as he could, because when released the canopy tended to lift from the back and pivot the front of it forward, meaning the top front of it was acting a little like a rearward projecting guillotine right where the top of the pilot's head would normally be located. Curiously enough, although my mate was lucky enough to never having to splash a P-51, he did ditch a TBF Avenger in the Waitemata Harbour in New Zealand after engine failure. The three on board escaped injury, luckily. Moriori 08:10, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
I finally got a copy of the actual F-51D Mustang Flight Handbook, T.O. No. IF-51D-1, 20 January 1954 and the exact wording in the "Ditching" section reads:
"Warning: Airplane will sink in approximately 2 sec." Further, the manual states "The airplane should be ditched only as a last resort. If it is impossible to maintain sufficient altitude for bail-out, ditch according to the following procedure:
A three-part diagram illustrating the ditching procedure accompanied the instructions." FWIW Bzuk 18:40, 5 September 2007 (UTC).
Question on the first paragraph-It lists the "Definitive version powered by the Packard V-1650-3 engine." I don't want to start a flamewar over which version was definitive, but if we agree the defninitive version was the P-51D, then it should be the V-1650-7 engine; only the P-51D-1-NA's sent to CAC for license-construction had the V-1650-3; all other D's had the -7 engine. -gale_dono —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.74.89.142 ( talk) 12:21, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
If the fascinating pilot anecdote which follows is anything to go by, the P-51 does seem to have been a "ditching death-trap", relative at least to other WW2 fighters and the scoop does seem to have been a significant factor:
Grant | Talk 06:06, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
See also this official history: The Army Air Forces in World War II, Volume Seven: Services Around the World, p.483 Grant | Talk 06:26, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
Sure, although the P-51 is also singled out in the official history cite above: "Only once was the P-51 known to have ditched successfully, and this minor miracle could not be repeated deliberately since the pilot lost consciousness and therewith all memory of his technique. Normally the radiator scoop of the Mustang plowed the plane under at impact." A remarkable factoid, if it is true; it doesn't appear that the author is referring to Lt Scott. Grant | Talk 04:36, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
23:03, 20 December 2006 Bzuk (Talk | contribs) m (Needs a rewrite- how about separating the variants and putting out a new article?)
Okay, but let's "tighten it up" as it is a very long article. Bzuk 18:26, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Just a minor point, but one not often described is the different propeller used Post-WW2: The "cuffed" Hamilton Standard unit was replaced with a unit using slightly wider "uncuffed" blades with blunter tips, and a slightly shorter spinner.. I thought it would be worthwhile mentioning this small change in the P-51D/K section. Minorhistorian ( talk) 23:10, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm curious what the sentence "Test pilot Hatton was the first to fly this aircraft" refers to. It is well known that Vance Breese was the first pilot to fly the NA-73X on 26 October 1940. If you require a reference, Mustang At War by Roger A. Freeman (Ian Allen LTD, London, 1974) is the closest source to hand, but very many other sources will agree. Paul Balfour flew it next (on it's fifth flight), and, as the story goes, Breese won a bet that Balfour would crash the airplane on his first flight in it. 71.228.225.234 08:46, 1 December 2007 (UTC)CBsHellcat
So after my edit was reverted, I've looked at the overall structure of the article and wonder if doing something like the B-17 article might not be applicable here. Could we move the variants section into the development paragraph and move the more specific detailed entries about variants that precede this awkwardly placed variants specific section into a new article on P-51 variants? Would that make sense to people? Wouldn't take much effort to achieve the shift. -- Thatguy96 ( talk) 02:26, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Surprised Gorings famous quote "When I saw Mustangs over Berlin, I knew the jig was up" isn't in the article. 193.35.129.169 ( talk) 23:47, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
I've done a bit of rewriting of the "Merlin Engine Mustangs" which, I hope, has helped clarify the sequence of events and the armament; for example, the description of the reasons why dorsal fins were fitted to D/Ks didn't make it sufficiently clear that the flight problems first came to light in B/Cs fitted with the fuselage fuel tank.
Also the significant differences between the Mustang Xs and the XP-51Bs was a little blurry and it was a little unclear that the American version reached production. Plus I couldn't resist describing some of the main experimental Mustangs. Hope the additions haven't lengthened things too much. Minorhistorian ( talk) 12:58, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
"Also, two aircraft of this lot were fitted with Packard-built Merlin engines mounted BEHIND the cockpit, in the fashion of the P-39.[10] This was identified as Model NA-101 by North American and XP-78 by the USAAF, later redesignated XP-51B." Ahhh yeah rrrright...moving the engine behind the cockpit - the CoG movement must have been.....rather difficult to deal with.... not to mention the structural changes etc... I think someone is indulging in a bit of leg pulling —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.234.130.110 ( talk) 10:38, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Cant find any evidence that it was not just a re-engine job here is at least two references that make no mention other than an engine swop:
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help)Here is an image of 41-37352 [2] from [3], I wonder if somebody presumed the new radiator was an intake! MilborneOne ( talk) 13:20, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Hi guys, notice that someone has written that the P51 was known as the 'best Israeli fighter' However most of the Israeli pilots rate the SPitfire IX as the best fighter plane they had. PLease change this part.
See quotes from the real pilots :-
h**p://101squadron.com/101/aircraft.html
Two examples from the interviews on there...
'Gordon Levett compares the three combat aircraft flown by the 101:
In mock dog-fights, we concluded that the Messerschmitt could out-climb, out-dive and out-zoom the Spitfire and Mustang. The Spitfire could out-turn the Messerschmitt, the most important manoeuvre in air combat, and both could out-turn the Mustang. The Mustang was the fastest, the Messerschmitt the slowest, though there was not much in it. The Mustang had the best visibility, important for a fighter aircraft, the Messerschmitt the worst. The Spitfire cockpit fitted like a glove, the Messerschmitt like a strait-jacket, the Mustang like a too comfortable armchair. The Spitfire had two 20-mm cannon and four .303-in machine guns (sic; actually, the 101 Squadron Spits had two .50s, not four .303s), the Mustang six 12.7-mm machine guns (i.e. .50-calibre), and the Messerschmitt two 20-mm cannon and two 7.92-mm machine guns (sic; actually two 13.1-mm machine guns) synchronised to fire through the arc of the propeller.... Despite the pros and cons the Spitfire was everyone's first choice. (Levett 1994)'
'Syd Antin enjoyed his Mustang time:
Wonderful airplane. Great airplane. But for our situation there, not as good as the Spitfire. The reason? The Mustang was built for longer range, it was a heavier aircraft - it could not maneuver as tightly as the Spitfire. The Spitfire was designed and built as a short-range fighter. You gotta remember that all it had to was cross the English Channel and it was in a war zone. The Mustang was designed and built to escort long-range bombers and to defend them in the air. Consequently, it had to have more armament and more fuel capacity, so it was heavier and it couldn't maneuver anywhere near as good as the Spitfire.
The Mustang? Great, I loved that airplane. For our job over there, for combat, we only had to fly a few miles to get to it so we didn't need the long range.'
Xiolablu3 ( talk) 17:00, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
I had dinner several days in a row recently with Tom Reilly who told me he just bought two Roll Royce Merlin engines for his XP-82 Twin Mustang restoration back to flying project. Unlike the later F-82, that is exactly the same engine as in P-51B, C and D. I asked him about the horse power in those engines at 61 inches of manifold pressure, wich according to pilot manual is the max take-off power. Without even blinking he answered "1490 hp!" "But...." he continued "... a lot of people seems to mix up the displacement of 1650 cubic inches with the horsepower, but that is incorrect!" It should be noted for those of you who do not know who the hell Tom is, that he has accumulated a massive experience in restoring warbirds back to flying condition since way before people started calling them "Warbirds"! I've heard this abot the horse power several times before from other people working with Mustangs that are flying today. The WEP of 67 inches of manifold pressure, also called "Get-The-Hell-Out-Of-Here-Power-Setting!!" would give about 100 extra hp for a very limited time. Not even that adds up to 1650 hp! So the question is, who dares to correct this long line of missinformation that the engine in a P-51D has 1650 hp when it should say only 1490 hp? -- Towpilot ( talk) 21:32, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
An editor keeps putting the retirement date of the six Dominican Republic P-51's into the infobox. I changed it to the retirement date of USAF use as this was OVERWHELMINGLY an American aircraft. The retirement date for Dominican service is important maybe as a footnote under the "Users" section but is highly misleading in the infobox. -- Nukes4Tots ( talk) 14:49, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
Compromise what? This is a concensus building exercise, not a negotiation. You're speaking about a drop in the bucket... 6 planes out of 16,000 that 'served' in a tiny nation... a statistical blip. You're making it out to be something significant. -- Nukes4Tots ( talk) 16:24, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
What about all the other aircraft that served after 1957? There were HUNDREDS of examples in service after 1957. Do we not count those? The Mig-21 is used in large numbers by many countries, but no longer used by Russia. Should we say that it is now retired? The part of the article we are talking about states when the aircraft was retired. Anyone would assume that would mean MILITARY service. Saying it was retired in 1957 is incorrect.
The F-51 was used as a MILITARY aircraft for almost 30 years after the USAF stopped using it. I was willing to compromise with you and put both dates down, as other articles have (look at Me-109 article). Don't be so stubborn.-- Panzertank ( talk) 16:41, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
I see, so you ask for a concensus, and now two people agree and since they don’t agree with you it is absurd. It is absurd to say an aircraft is retired after it is used for almost thirty in an operational military role.
When the USAF retired their F-51s, the Dominican Air Force had more than forty F-51s in service. That is almost as many fighter aircraft that Mexico and Central America had combined. The F-51 saw combat in Central America and Asia after 1957. HUNDREDS of aircraft remained in service after 1957. It is irrelevant that the USAF retired it in 1957. F-51s were used as operational military aircraft until 1984. I am reverting it to read the type was retired in 1984. I will revert it everyday if I have to.-- Panzertank ( talk) 03:05, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
I totally agree with Panzertank!! To deny that there was any significant service of the F-51 beyond 1957 is ABSURD! The last ten airplanes were retired by the Dominicans in May 1984. One was kept for museum, the other nine and the entire stock of spare parts were sold to Brian O'Farrell/Johnson Aviation in Miami, Florida! We are talking about an airplane that saw combat more than ten years after retirement from USAAF. If that's not "significant service", what is? -- Towpilot ( talk) 07:30, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
Cannon were superior air-to-air weapons in many respects than heavy machine guns, but not due to superior penetration. If anything, the .50 cal probably had superior penetration to any 20mm or even 30mm cannon mounted in any airplane I know of. The cannon caused more structural damage by exploding, which is more efficient than punching holes, but the .50 was better at piercing armor. If you doubt this there are numerous ballistics tables available on the internet.
[Drifter Bob]
Drifter-cannons had a lower rate of fire and poor spread. Cannons were effective close in and against jets. The spray of .50 cal AP was devastating.
The maximum speed of the P-51H is incorrect. It was approximately 487mph, not 444mph.
Hi, I added the little trivia part. Feel free to remove it if it dosn't feat with the article.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Adrien Chatillon ( talk • contribs) 19:27, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
As iconic as the P-51 is, it seems as though it's article should have a Pop-Culture section. One could mention things such as its use in Grand Theft Auto (San Andreas), or Chuck Yeager's love of its manuverability.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.215.27.164 ( talk) 09:30, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Seems to me long ago I read that there were about five P-51D-1-NAs built with the razorback as opposed to the bubble canopy. The bubble canopy started with the D-5s. Any info on the D-1s? AMCKen ( talk) 04:59, 25 March 2009 (UTC)AMCKen
That sounds more like the P-47 to me. The term "Razorback D" for a P-51 is an oxymoron! PhantomWSO ( talk) 18:54, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
This article has always stated that the P-51 was armed with Browning M2 .50 caliber guns. I've seen several sources stating that it they were actually Colt MG53 .50 caliber machine guns. I believe that the MG53 was a derivative of the M2, but it had its own nomenclature and was definitely different enough to be considered a different weapon from the M2 and not a variant of it. Anyone know the actual story? PhantomWSO ( talk) 19:06, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
The new paragraph added by Gian piero milanetti appears to me to be a way to bring the Veltro to this article and show it in a good light. We have peacock words to describe the aircraft and we have a total of 58 Mustangs shot down by Veltros "at a high price". How many Veltros were shot down by Mustangs? I'd like to see the paragraph greatly reduced to be a straight telling of how tough the two adversaries were to each other, without going into detail about the Veltro. Binksternet ( talk) 20:14, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
I took a new Mustang website out of External links per WP:NOTLINK which says
“ | Wikipedia articles are not... mere collections of external links or Internet directories. There is nothing wrong with adding one or more useful content-relevant links to an article; however, excessive lists can dwarf articles and detract from the purpose of Wikipedia. On articles about topics with many fansites, for example, including a link to one major fansite may be appropriate. | ” |
I believe we have enough external links, and possibly too many. Should we trim further? Delete all but one? Should we let the new one back in and allow the list to grow? Binksternet ( talk) 15:41, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
I think the treatment of the choice of engine is very confusing. The early paragraph suggests the plane began in response to a British request and it had a Packard engine. Then there is a section on planes with the Alison engine. Does anyone have a clear time line of the engine decisiion? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.169.162.100 ( talk) 09:22, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
I came across this; P-51 research
a research paper on the "Mustang as an Escort Fighter" submitted in 1996 to the Air War College, Air War University by a Lt Col Karen Daneu. It can be downloaded as a PDF file. Worth adding to External Links? Minorhistorian ( talk) 22:49, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
I think the article needs a section on the countries and units that used the P-51, in what numbers and when. It was a very popular plane, if only for a short time. Grant65 (Talk) 16:07, August 11, 2005 (UTC)
I tried to start a Foreign Service section to answer that question. I'll complete it later on... Any help would be welcome, though.
I understand from an air show documentary that, when landing, the pilots can't see the landing strip in front of them due to the angle at which it lands, nose-up. Is this correct ? If so, this just seems insane to me, and sure enough a pilot died during the air show because of this lack of visibility. Why don't they put some cameras on it (perhaps in the landing gear) for air shows so they overcome this blatant deficiency ? We now have small, inexpensive radio-transmission cameras which would suit the bill nicely. Has anyone so equipped a P-51 ? I'd like to create a subsection on this visibility issue once I have all the facts straight. Does anyone know how many have died due to this problem ? StuRat ( talk) 14:39, 24 August 2009 (UTC)