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There have been three changes made by an unsigned member that are contentious POV statements that have no source cited. These are all against Wikipedia policy. Unless in the next 24 hours the person who made these changes can reference them, I will be editing it back to the previous statement. John D. Croft 02:43, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
It states that the Noongar "tribal lands". This is in error as the Noongar did not live in tribes. I have amended it appropriately John D. Croft 09:37, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
It would probably be pertinent to delete from this draft the information that has already been put into the main article. Benn M. 15:48, 2005 May 4 (UTC)
SeanMack 14:24, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
If anyone's wondering, I have removed the reference to Sally Morgan's famous book because, while she grew up in Perth, she is not Noongar; her family were from much further north, near Marble Bar. Chrisell 17:05, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
Surely there's a book? User:SatuSuro 12:02, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
The article is incorrect where it states that 'some linguists regard modern Noongar as a dialect of English'. It is clear that 'modern Noongar' has been to a fair extent re-modelled along the lines of English, but it is certainly not a dialect of English and I know of no linguists who have claimed that it is. Unless anyone disagrees, I'll take that comment out sometime. Dougg 10:40, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Ok, I've put up a page on Wilfrid Douglas. As you'll see he did some significant work on Noongar. Probably the second 'modern' (-ish) linguist to work on the language after Gerhardt Laves (oops, there's another page to create!) Feel free to expand, improve, etc.. Dougg 06:27, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
Every reference I've seen on this topic stated that the Noongars believed that the white people were the returning spirits of the Noongar dead. Hence 'Djanga': "spirits of the dead". This notion that the Noongars thought the Europeans uncivilised is news to me. Considering the reference is to a blog, I'm inclined to remove it and insert the "accepted" version. Any comments? User:Hesperian 00:40, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
I have seen 5 reasons why Aboriginal people referred to Europeans as Djanga.
I cannot remember the reference but suspect it was something kept at the Koolbardi Centre at Murdoch. John D. Croft ( talk) 10:57, 16 July 2011 (UTC)
Hi,
I saw that you've changed all the spellings of 'Nyungar' to 'Noongar in the article of that name'. I'm just wondering what your basis is for saying that's the 'standard' spelling. Dougg 09:45, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
Oops, I meant to mention that while you've changed all the spellings 'Nyoongar', you've missed several instances of 'Nyungar'. cheers, Dougg 09:52, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
Dougg, I do agree that "Nyungar" is the more common spelling outside Wikipedia, and personally would prefer it changed throughout to that. I've moved our discussion here (from my talk page) to hear what others think. Whatever we decide, we should aim to be consistent throughout the wiki. -- — Moondyne 00:46, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
I'm happy to go along with that, but I'd like to make a couple of points, particularly regards the above quote: Firstly, the orthography of Noongar, as used in the Noongar Dictionary uses 'ny' for the laminal nasal, which is the sound older speakers say at the start of the word noongar, so the spelling noongar actually goes against the orthography used by the Noongar Language and Culture Centre (but names are often idiosyncratic). Secondly, while the spelling 'Noongar' was indeed endorsed by the Narrogin meeting, and then again by the one at Dryandra, there is not one concensus on this. There are Noongar elders who were not at those meetings, or who held (or have developed) different views, or want to use a different spelling to distinguish themselves and their family from other Noongars. Anyway, as I say, I'm happy to go along with 'Noongar' as consistency is important, even though it's an inconsistent consistency!. Dougg 10:32, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Most have agreed to use the spelling "Noongar", however, the word was never written down by the Aboriginal people as they had no written language, so Europeans have decided to spell it this way as it sounds the closest to the pronunciation of the word.
Changed some sentences in the History section to make them NPOV. Iwalters 13:22, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
The history section seems rather Eurocentric and speaks little of the Noongar's early history. What are their origins? How long have they populated the area?
According to Lonely Planet's Western Australia (3 ed) ( ISBN 0 86442 740 9), p. 108 (admittedly not the most academic of sources, but it's what I had at hand), the Noongar people have populated the Perth area for some 40,000 years. From memory, that seems to echo what I read at a West Australian Museum exhibit as well.
If anyone can find information on this, it might also be appropriate to add relevant bits to the Perth article's History section, as its current Pre-British Colonization (sic) History section is confined to previous European sightings. In fact, in reading the article, one might be led to believe that Western Australia was as terra nullius as the British claimed.
Hope this helps. John D. Croft 14:53, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
I think the Pinjarra massacre is worth inclusion. Some documented accounts of Noongar people in Albany prior to 'settlement' exist (I will get Ref.). Is it possible for oral traditions and history to be included in the WP (systematic bias?) Fred.e 15:59, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
I have heard reference of an aboriginal liason group, I am unsure if they are police officers or just employees of the police force, who deal with aboriginal people specifically when they get drunk or rowdy, apparently it has smashing success rates of reducing trouble as it removes the 'us and them' scenario prevalent in our society when it comes to indigenous crime rates and the like. Is there any chance of a reference to this bunch on this article as I'd love to read more about them and the concept behind them! Jachin 11:20, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Is this the same Noongar people that is being reported a lot in the news recently? [6]
I have very little knowlege or understanding about the relevant issues, so do not feel I am qualified, but I feel there should be something about the native title claim in there. Anyone feel like volunteering? :) Chovain 00:23, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
It is the same people 'as seen on TV'. I think that Native Title coud do now with its own section. Economics would seem a bit mischievous as there is no effect on other titles. Fred.e 17:29, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
... or add to Current Issues section. Fred.e 17:35, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
I've added [ link] to the case in question - Bennell v State of Western Australia. Arguably, this could do with a page of its own. userX 17:09, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
I take it "gilgie" (?jilgie) is Noongar in origin - anyone got evidence? Callophylla 11:38, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
The reference provided states that Yagan was shot by a shepherd in return for a published reward. This is not a murder because by definition murder is an unlawful, wilful killing.
In view of this I have changed the wording of the sentence to something less emotive. Ga rr ie 09:47, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
The Ngaanyatjarra people of the Sandy, Gibson and Victoria Desert Region of WA are covered very well. I have started articles on the Yamatji and the Wangai, which need a great deal of work. Please folks, your contributions would be gratefully received. John D. Croft 06:40, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
I removed the line about a 'broader accent' in the south being the reason for a different spelling. I don't know what 'broader accent' means, and I'm not sure it means anything particularly. Dougg ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 09:02, 22 April 2009 (UTC).
I've tag this section as unsourced which it is, I also have concerns of the way in which people are descibed I have never heard of a "Perth Type" to refer to a subgroup/family grouping for Indigenous peoples. My intention is to remove this particular description, and I have removed the use of "type" in the headings. Gnan garra 11:41, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
From Madge V., "New perspective", Letters to the Editor, Victoria Park Examiner, 29 February 2012, p7ff: "I then got chatting to an elder male... He explained they are not actually the Noongar people, but Bibbulmun people. Noongar means man and Yorga means woman. Apparently the white man... asked the men who they were, they answered noongar, meaning men. And the name stuck."
About 3-5000 years ago, before the Swan River existed, the Whadjuk people would walk to Rottnest in due season, stopping at a freshwater spring now located offshore from Trigg. Then the sea levels rose, and sometime later an earthquake opened the northern end of Lake Yealering, or more probably the west end of Noonalling Lake which was fed from Lake Yealering, allowing the flow of excess water down what is now the Avon River. This encouraged the Rainbow Serpents (yes, plural) to take residence in what had previously been a fairly arid part of the world. The waters of the Avon river augmented the Canning River, and opened Blackwall Reach. 203.161.102.82 ( talk) 09:25, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
The article states that prisoners on Rottnest were sent there for "offences ranging from spearing livestock, burning the bush or digging vegetables". Yet if you follow the links to the old Sunday Times archives, you'll see that in the articles condemning the conditions of the prison, the description of some individual prisoners as rapists, murderers etc. It is misleading to imply that prisoners were only sent to Rottnest for trivial offences. Whilst conditions were appalling (by today's standards), at least some of the prisoners were hardened criminals. One of the prisoners in the 1890s apparently used to murder aboriginal women by breaking their necks. A more accurate description would be for "offences ranging from spearing livestock, burning the bush and digging vegetables to murder." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.161.78.193 ( talk) 05:05, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
(removed from text)
Other Australian Aboriginal groups
Insufficient qualification as to why this list should be a subset of the see also - requires more than simply inclusion, unless argued otherwise
JarrahTree
06:24, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
@ Gnangarra: This edit compares six seasons with four climatic zones, but I don't think this makes sense. A climatic zone a covers the whole year – it is not a division of the year – so it's probably not appropriate to compare number of seasons to number of climatic zones. Was the intent to compare the 6 Noongar seasons with the 4 European seasons (summer, autumn, winter, spring)? Mitch Ames ( talk) 13:56, 11 July 2019 (UTC)
Is something preventing you from making any improvement...— Yes, the fact that I don't know what point the sentence is trying to make. The edit is sufficiently ambiguous for me not to be confident in making a correction that is both factually correct and consistent with the editor's intent. So, per WP:TALK#DISCUSS I think that "the talk page is ... the place to ask about another editor's changes". Mitch Ames ( talk) 11:42, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
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‘The southwest can be divided into four major Mediterranean climatic types differentiated by the number of dry months in the year. These vary from Moderate Mediterranean with 3-4 dry months in the extreme southwest to Semi-desert Mediterranean in the goldfields with 9-11 dry months.
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As early as 10,000 BP Noongar utilised quartz, replacing chert flint for spear and knife edges when the chert deposits were submerged by sea level rise during the Flandrian transgression
The people indigenous to the South-West made a slow transition from using chert to knapping quartz in fashioning flints for spear and knife edges, starting around 12,000 BP, roughly contemporaneously with the onset of the Flandrian transgression. [2]
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what has European season got to do with any thing" — I used the term "European" (as in " European Australian") because I thought it less offensive than "white fella's seasons". Regardless of the adjective used to distinguish the 4 traditional seasons of spring, summer, autumn and winter from the 6 Noongar seasons, my question stands - did you intend to compare the number of Noongar seasons with the number of non-Noongar seasons rather than climatic zones? (I'm not disputing the number of Noongar seasons, only the " apples to oranges" comparison of seasons to climatic zones.) Mitch Ames ( talk) 12:07, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
‘The southwest can be divided into four major Mediterranean climatic types differentiated by the number of dry months in the year. These vary from Moderate Mediterranean with 3-4 dry months in the extreme southwest to Semi-desert Mediterranean in the goldfields with 9-11 dry months. [1]
The Noongar peoples have six seasons whose time frame is defined by specific observable changes to the environment, with a dry period varying from as few as three to as many as eleven months. [1]
'The Nyungar people made use of the species during the season Kambarang, around October to early December, obtaining bark to make shields. The gum that exudes from the wound can be collected later, it is sweet and eaten raw.[16] Moodjar (or Muja) is regarded as a protected tree by the Nyungar peoples of Southwest Australia, the species is noted as being incorporated into rituals and having a conservation status that forbids their destruction.'
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Noongar covers an area that isnt even solely a Mediterranean climate zone, in the Southwest it includes snow fields and the north, to the east and south east its desert, centrally for the majority of its area its dry savanna.
Noongar historical records include the climatic changes 15,000 years ago
it should be comparative which I started with and no one liked— I raised the original objection because you were comparing different things - seasons to climatic zones. If you want compare the Noongar seasons to something, compare them to other seasons (or appropriate " divisions of the year"), not climatic zones. That's why I initially asked whether your intent was to compare the Noongar seasons to the four European/traditional seasons summer, autumn, winter spring.
the other issue ... arguing that Noongar wasnt noongar 10,000 years ago— The issue of what word we use to refer to the people is independent of the "seasons/climatic zones" issue. Could editors who want to discuss "how to refer to the people" please create a separate section for that discussion. Per WP:TALKNEW: Make a new heading for a new topic.
Birak;Bunuru; Djeran; Makuru; Djilba; Kambarang.
To a comment by
Nishidani
above, I've added the three proposed sources Giblett-2013, Entwisle-2014, ABOM-2016 using WorldCat to augment the references more fully. Also added the sfn's as suggested; note, these have been augmented with direct-to-section links using the |loc=
param, which permits more apt refs per season bullet. (Note: ABOM-2016 is the one you identified as IWK-2016 w/o author; but WorldCat lists an institutional author, and author-linked it to the WP article.)
Mathglot (
talk)
05:54, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
Added another break, because the comment below responds to the meta-topic of how to manage this section, and is not about the topic of sources.
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That is very considerate of you. The talk section is long because I pose problems, and cite new texts, only to be talked at, insulted, or ignored. I'm still waiting for someone to actually analyse the issues I raised, otherwise I will just be condemned to talking to myself. It's a classic case of the marriage of WP:IDIDNOTHEARTHAT and not assuming good faith, and there's nothing I can do about it. Nishidani ( talk) 06:37, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
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Collapsed as promised, after meta-discussion became quiescent. Mathglot ( talk) 08:28, 22 July 2019 (UTC)
Noongar means ‘a person of the south-west of Western Australia,’ or the name for the ‘original inhabitants of the south-west of Western Australia’ and we are one of the largest Aboriginal cultural blocks in Australia. Noongar boodja – (country) covers the entire south-western portion of Western Australia. The boundary commences on the west coast at a point north of Jurien Bay, proceeds roughly easterly to a point approximately north of Moora and then roughly south-east to a point on the southern coast between Bremer Bay and Esperance. There is no evidence that there has been any other group than Noongar in the South-West. Archaeological evidence establishes that we Noongar have lived in the area and had possession of tracts of land on our country for at least 45,000 years. -- http://www.noongar.org.au/ Facts;
lets start with just one source, read https://openresearch-repository.anu.edu.au/bitstream/1885/145797/1/PL-C124.pdf HANDBOOK OF WESTERN AUSTRALIAN ABORIGINAL LANGUAGES SOUTH OF THE KIMBERLEY REGION by Department of Linguistics Research School of Pacific Studies THE AUSTRALIAN NATIONAL UNIVERSITY, take note of 4 & 16 though it wouldnt hurt to actually read the whole lot between 4 & 16, then see pages 33-69. for a start on issues about language. After that we can talk about pronunciation and how the spoken word differs from the north to the south with the emphasis shifting from the first vowel and trailing off to having the emphasis on the last vowel, who the words were written down not by linguists but collected by general settlers, how the spellings are the result of the individual who wrote the word down based on what they understood to represent the sound, be they French, German, Spanish, Latin or the various english speakers. Contemporary sources, include the works of the Bunbury Language centre, those Kim Scott, Len Collard and many others all of Noongar heritage have extensively addressed the works. Elders have since the 1990's agreed to standard Nyungar language form specifically for the teaching of Noongar in Schools. For every word its easy to find to find a dozen different spelling but for which most of them are exactly the same when pronounced. Gnan garra 09:53, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
"Archaeological evidence establishes that we Noongar have lived in the area and had possession of tracts of land on our country for at least 45,000 years." original post Gnan garra 07:18, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
(a) There is no evidence that there has been any other group than Noongar in the South-West.(b) Archaeological evidence establishes that we Noongar have lived in the area and had possession of tracts of land on our country for at least 45,000 years.
There is no evidence that there has been any other group than Arabs/Jews in Palestine. Archaeological evidence establishes that we Arabs/Jews have lived in the area and had possession of tracts of land on our country for at least 45,000 years.
Your source states ... (a) There is no evidence that there has been any other group than Noongar in the South-West ...— I did not mention that sentence at all; my question was about (b) "Archaeological evidence establishes that we Noongar have lived in the area...". Never mind, Mathglot has answered the question, politely. [7] [8] Mitch Ames ( talk) 13:36, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
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Before the arrival of Europeans, the Noongar population has been estimated at 45,000 years BCE.
Version 906814849 contained an assertion about tribal age that is unverified. According to Wikipedia:Verifiability, "The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material, and it is satisfied by providing an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports the contribution." Since that was not provided, I have removed the assertion.
I now hereby officially challenge the removed assertion. Per Wikipedia:Verifiability challenges, "You may not restore unsourced material to an article after it has been WP:CHALLENGEd, unless you provide an inline citation to a reliable source that supports the material." Any attempt to restore this material in a manner that is contrary to policy, will be considered disruptive editing. Thanks, Mathglot ( talk) 07:38, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
Before the arrival of Europeans, the Noongar population has been estimated at 45,000 years BCE.
Will you accept the below (the second being a summary of the first)?
In challenging the assertion that Noongar have lived in the South West of Western Australia for at least 45,000 years, Mathglot is asserting that someone else was inhabiting the South West before Noongar.
French painters ... in ... France, 17,000 years agois a valid comparison. The French people are those who are identified with the country of France, the " the land of the Franks" and it's generally accepted that the land of the Franks did not exist before the Franks themselves, "whose name was first mentioned in 3rd century Roman sources". No-one asserts that the French/Franks existed 17,000 years ago in the land now called France. However the Noongar (whose word for themselves means "man" or "person" , not "people of Western Australia", or "people of Terra Australis", or people of any other relatively recently named place) do assert that they lived 45,000 years ago in the land now known as the south-west of Western Australia. Mitch Ames ( talk) 09:51, 22 July 2019 (UTC)
(a)According to their traditional beliefs, Noongar people have lived in the South West of Western Australia since time immemorial. (b) Archaeological evidence from Perth and Albany confirms that the region has been occupied for at least 45,000 years, with some caves at Devil's Lair in the hills near Margaret River showing human habitation from 47,000 years ago. 'South West Native Title Settlement,' Government of Western Australia 14 March 2018
This section concerns 3 points.
Moores work also explains how that the language was spoken perface IX sKGS area the last syllable was cut, to the north the last syllable was lengthened, once you add in the interchangability of P/B, D/T, and G/Q/K. I'll add to that though Salvado word lists are an outrider to all other wordlist complied by Bindon & Chadwick and published by the WA Museum in 2011. Gnan garra 11:45, 22 July 2019 (UTC)
and then Yungar YUNG AR subst People The name by which they designate themselves
I suggest something along the following lines:-
The earliest known human occupation of the present Noongar area of Southwestern Australia dates back to ~48,000 B.P. [a]
The Aboriginal population of the south west at the outset of white colonization is generally thought to have been around 6,000-7,500. [2] In the early days of settlement Sir James Stirling posited a density of 1 indigenous person per square mile in 1832 and, diminishing rapidly under the presssure of white settlement, 1 person per 2 square miles in 1837. [3] In 1930, Alfred Radcliffe-Brown’s calculations led him to surmise 1 native per 4 square miles, a figure which, extrapolated for the whole area, suggested an indigenous population on the eve of European settlement of around 12,500. [4]This high figure was challenged by Clarence Makin in 1970, [5] and in 1973 Ronald Berndt, accepting Makin’s criticisms of Radcliffe-Brown’s estimation, argued that the original numbers were probably not less than 7.500, if the estimate took into account adjacent tribes in the circumcising inland area. [6] Nishidani ( talk) 11:49, 22 July 2019 (UTC)
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There has been some discussion previously (most recently just above) about the reliability of certain sources. I wanted to recall some general principles about this, and then address the reliability of one source that has been questioned specifically. The general principle rgarding reliability and sources, is that "Articles must be based on reliable, independent, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." In this formulation, we sometimes remember the reliable part, but forget the independent. Independent sources are sometimes called "third-party sources". WP:Identifying and using independent sources has this to say: "Reliance on independent sources ensures that an article can be written from a balanced, disinterested viewpoint rather than from the subject's own viewpoint or from the viewpoint of people with an axe to grind. It then poses the question, "How to identify indpendent sources?" and answers this way:
Finally, in questioning whether something is a reliable source or not, as it says in the Verifiability policy, section #What counts as a reliable source, "The appropriateness of any source depends on the context." A source may be reliable for one thing, such as their own stated opinions, and unreliable for something else, such as matters of established fact, because they are too close to the subject. This is part of the neutrality policy. The way Wikipedia handles this, is by the distinction between saying something largely supported by the majority of reliable sources in Wikipedia's voice (e.g., The Earth revolves around the Sun.), versus presenting something that is a biased statement of opinion "only with in-text attribution." (e.g., The Flat Earth society believes that the sun revolves around the Earth.). That is to say, the Flat Earth society is reliable for its own beliefs, but unreliable for astronomy and orbital mechanics. In discussing below whether indidividual sources are reliable in a particular context or not, ideally we will achieve a strong consensus. If we do not, however, the next step would be to raise an issue at WP:RSN. Comments about the reliability of specific sources follow in subsections (one source per section, please!) below. Thanks, Mathglot ( talk) 22:02, 22 July 2019 (UTC) |
Collapsed this section because an editor had an objection to it. Mathglot ( talk) 03:09, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
This subsection concerns the reliability of the website noongar.org.au. This website is maintained by the South West Aboriginal Land & Sea Council, an "organisation that represents the Noongar people" [1]
This section is, in part, a response to Mitch's "what's wrong with it" comment, here. This website can be presumed non-independent for matters concerning the Noongar people, because they are closely affiliated with the subject (see second bullet above).
Because of their non-independence, in addressing whether noongar.org.au is a reliable source or not, it depends on context. For matters of opinion concerning what the Noongar people believe, they can be considered reliable, in my opinion. This would mean that WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV applies, and assertions sourced to this website, require in-text attribution; that is, double-quotes, and the naming of a source in the running text. For example, you could say:
The Southwest Aboriginal Land & Sea Council believes that "The earliest evidence of Noongar occupation of the south-west was around 45,000 BP." [2]
But since they are not independent, you could not state this in Wikipedia's voice. That is, the following would not be acceptable in the article:
The earliest evidence of Noongar occupation of the south-west was around 45,000 BP. [2]
Thus, in my opinion, SWAL&SC website is reliable for Noongar belief, and is not reliable for scientific pursuits such as genetics, archaeology, paleontology, anthropology, and so on, since they don't claim to be, and are not, reliable in any of those fields, and because the website is self-published by a non-independent, organisation that can be assumed to have an organisational bias about issues concerning the Noongar people. Mathglot ( talk) Mathglot ( talk) 22:34, 22 July 2019 (UTC)
References
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Articles independently published in serious, academic, peer-reviewed journals are almost always considered reliable sources. (Some unreliable sources make claims about being peer-reviewed which are faulty or suspect; those can be considered on a case-by-case basis; but check the archives at WP:RSN first.)
Articles in highly prestigious journals are almost always reliable (which is not to say these journals have never screwed up, but it's rare). Example:
Such articles would be considered a primary source, thus not ideal in many situations, since Wikipedia prefers secondary sources.
Reviews of a reliable study published by generally reliable sources are generally considered reliable. Exampe:
A review is a secondary source, and thus is generally a good type of source to use as a reference. Mathglot ( talk) 23:12, 22 July 2019 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Noongar (disambiguation) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 14:34, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Noongar (disambiguation) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 13:17, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
There is a citation needed for the post on zamia palm leading to contraception. I have seen this was linked to fasting by a boya or birthing stone, and the fact that wedjalas destroyed the birthing stone at Gooninup. Has anyone got a reference?
Regards, EaChanan ( talk) 05:52, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
Their dry period did not last for 11 months. The quote by Nayton is not relevant here. I propose it be edited out. EaChanan ( talk) 06:02, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
"Harry Hobbs and George Williams of the Faculty of Law at the University of New South Wales have described the Settlement as 'Australia's First Treaty'." [1] See: http://www.noongar.org.au/s/The-Noongar-Settlement-First-Australian-Treaty.pdf for the article in which they do so.
References
Three Aboriginal men of Perth are identified as Monday, Doomera and Djar [1]
References
@ Betterkeks: With [9] [10] we seem to have resolved two of the three items contested in [11] [12]. Perhaps we can improve on the third:
Rottnest Island ( Nyungar: Wadjemup, possibly meaning "place across the water"
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I still think that inserting the Noongar name and meaning here disrupts the flow of the text and does not add information that is relevant in this context. The (linked) Rottnest Island article includes the Noongar name (and meaning, and pre-Colonial history), which is the appropriate place to put it. Perhaps it is possible to include the information in the text flow in some way that is contextually relevant to the reader, but I can't think of any. Here's a couple of purely made-up examples to illustrate:
An alternative would simply be to move the existing text into a footnote, which fixes the disruption to text flow. But even in a footnote, that text alone means nothing to the reader. I'd rather see some text that explains to the reader why the name is relevant here, specifically. Mitch Ames ( talk) 07:46, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
Birdsall 1987 p.1. refers to no text in the bibliography. If it cannot be retrieved (no doubt someone in the relentlessly bad editing characteristic of this page has removed it) it goes out. Nishidani ( talk) 23:19, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
@ Amborille:, re [14] [15] [16] [17] ... As it states in his article, although Mark Parton has Noongar heritage, he "[does] not identify as Aboriginal". [1] Consequently we ought not include him in Aboriginal/Noongar categories, lists etc. Please discuss, rather than simply re-adding him, if you disagree. Mitch Ames ( talk) 23:35, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
References
Do we have / need guidelines for what constitutes Modern vs Historical for the purposes of listing notable Noongar people? I would not have considered Graham Farmer (1935-2019) or Jack Davis (playwright) (1917-2000) to be "historical", but Amborille apparently does: [18] [19] [20]. Mitch Ames ( talk) 23:54, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
I think the list in this article should be removed altogether— Agreed. Delete the section Noongar § Notable Noongar people, and instead add List of Noongar people, and Category:Noongar people to Noongar § See also. Mitch Ames ( talk) 05:00, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
the article should only identify a limited number of people who have a legacy impact Like Polly, Jack, Yagan, Kim Scott— Jack Davis, Yagan, Kim Scott are already mentioned in the appropriate sections (Culture, History of contact). Mitch Ames ( talk) 00:49, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
I have moved 1 comment each by Gnangarra and JarrahTree from Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Western Australia#Definition of "modern" vs "historical" Noongar people to here to avoid fragmenting the discussion. Mitch Ames ( talk) 02:12, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
some groups have very specific rules regarding whether people are mentioned ...— Fortunately Wikipedia has its own rules, so "some [other] groups" rules probably don't apply here.
It is something that has implications for the whole Australian project— I'm sure you'll post a link when you start that discussion. In the meantime, specific suggestions for this article would be appreciated. Mitch Ames ( talk) 02:19, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
I've
removed the ever-growing list, and replaced it with a "See also" entry. As
Gnangarra suggested (on this page and at
the recent meetup), someone might care to write a few paragraphs about a few specific people who are notable for being Noongar.
Mitch Ames (
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There have been three changes made by an unsigned member that are contentious POV statements that have no source cited. These are all against Wikipedia policy. Unless in the next 24 hours the person who made these changes can reference them, I will be editing it back to the previous statement. John D. Croft 02:43, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
It states that the Noongar "tribal lands". This is in error as the Noongar did not live in tribes. I have amended it appropriately John D. Croft 09:37, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
It would probably be pertinent to delete from this draft the information that has already been put into the main article. Benn M. 15:48, 2005 May 4 (UTC)
SeanMack 14:24, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
If anyone's wondering, I have removed the reference to Sally Morgan's famous book because, while she grew up in Perth, she is not Noongar; her family were from much further north, near Marble Bar. Chrisell 17:05, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
Surely there's a book? User:SatuSuro 12:02, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
The article is incorrect where it states that 'some linguists regard modern Noongar as a dialect of English'. It is clear that 'modern Noongar' has been to a fair extent re-modelled along the lines of English, but it is certainly not a dialect of English and I know of no linguists who have claimed that it is. Unless anyone disagrees, I'll take that comment out sometime. Dougg 10:40, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Ok, I've put up a page on Wilfrid Douglas. As you'll see he did some significant work on Noongar. Probably the second 'modern' (-ish) linguist to work on the language after Gerhardt Laves (oops, there's another page to create!) Feel free to expand, improve, etc.. Dougg 06:27, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
Every reference I've seen on this topic stated that the Noongars believed that the white people were the returning spirits of the Noongar dead. Hence 'Djanga': "spirits of the dead". This notion that the Noongars thought the Europeans uncivilised is news to me. Considering the reference is to a blog, I'm inclined to remove it and insert the "accepted" version. Any comments? User:Hesperian 00:40, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
I have seen 5 reasons why Aboriginal people referred to Europeans as Djanga.
I cannot remember the reference but suspect it was something kept at the Koolbardi Centre at Murdoch. John D. Croft ( talk) 10:57, 16 July 2011 (UTC)
Hi,
I saw that you've changed all the spellings of 'Nyungar' to 'Noongar in the article of that name'. I'm just wondering what your basis is for saying that's the 'standard' spelling. Dougg 09:45, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
Oops, I meant to mention that while you've changed all the spellings 'Nyoongar', you've missed several instances of 'Nyungar'. cheers, Dougg 09:52, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
Dougg, I do agree that "Nyungar" is the more common spelling outside Wikipedia, and personally would prefer it changed throughout to that. I've moved our discussion here (from my talk page) to hear what others think. Whatever we decide, we should aim to be consistent throughout the wiki. -- — Moondyne 00:46, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
I'm happy to go along with that, but I'd like to make a couple of points, particularly regards the above quote: Firstly, the orthography of Noongar, as used in the Noongar Dictionary uses 'ny' for the laminal nasal, which is the sound older speakers say at the start of the word noongar, so the spelling noongar actually goes against the orthography used by the Noongar Language and Culture Centre (but names are often idiosyncratic). Secondly, while the spelling 'Noongar' was indeed endorsed by the Narrogin meeting, and then again by the one at Dryandra, there is not one concensus on this. There are Noongar elders who were not at those meetings, or who held (or have developed) different views, or want to use a different spelling to distinguish themselves and their family from other Noongars. Anyway, as I say, I'm happy to go along with 'Noongar' as consistency is important, even though it's an inconsistent consistency!. Dougg 10:32, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Most have agreed to use the spelling "Noongar", however, the word was never written down by the Aboriginal people as they had no written language, so Europeans have decided to spell it this way as it sounds the closest to the pronunciation of the word.
Changed some sentences in the History section to make them NPOV. Iwalters 13:22, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
The history section seems rather Eurocentric and speaks little of the Noongar's early history. What are their origins? How long have they populated the area?
According to Lonely Planet's Western Australia (3 ed) ( ISBN 0 86442 740 9), p. 108 (admittedly not the most academic of sources, but it's what I had at hand), the Noongar people have populated the Perth area for some 40,000 years. From memory, that seems to echo what I read at a West Australian Museum exhibit as well.
If anyone can find information on this, it might also be appropriate to add relevant bits to the Perth article's History section, as its current Pre-British Colonization (sic) History section is confined to previous European sightings. In fact, in reading the article, one might be led to believe that Western Australia was as terra nullius as the British claimed.
Hope this helps. John D. Croft 14:53, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
I think the Pinjarra massacre is worth inclusion. Some documented accounts of Noongar people in Albany prior to 'settlement' exist (I will get Ref.). Is it possible for oral traditions and history to be included in the WP (systematic bias?) Fred.e 15:59, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
I have heard reference of an aboriginal liason group, I am unsure if they are police officers or just employees of the police force, who deal with aboriginal people specifically when they get drunk or rowdy, apparently it has smashing success rates of reducing trouble as it removes the 'us and them' scenario prevalent in our society when it comes to indigenous crime rates and the like. Is there any chance of a reference to this bunch on this article as I'd love to read more about them and the concept behind them! Jachin 11:20, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Is this the same Noongar people that is being reported a lot in the news recently? [6]
I have very little knowlege or understanding about the relevant issues, so do not feel I am qualified, but I feel there should be something about the native title claim in there. Anyone feel like volunteering? :) Chovain 00:23, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
It is the same people 'as seen on TV'. I think that Native Title coud do now with its own section. Economics would seem a bit mischievous as there is no effect on other titles. Fred.e 17:29, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
... or add to Current Issues section. Fred.e 17:35, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
I've added [ link] to the case in question - Bennell v State of Western Australia. Arguably, this could do with a page of its own. userX 17:09, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
I take it "gilgie" (?jilgie) is Noongar in origin - anyone got evidence? Callophylla 11:38, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
The reference provided states that Yagan was shot by a shepherd in return for a published reward. This is not a murder because by definition murder is an unlawful, wilful killing.
In view of this I have changed the wording of the sentence to something less emotive. Ga rr ie 09:47, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
The Ngaanyatjarra people of the Sandy, Gibson and Victoria Desert Region of WA are covered very well. I have started articles on the Yamatji and the Wangai, which need a great deal of work. Please folks, your contributions would be gratefully received. John D. Croft 06:40, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
I removed the line about a 'broader accent' in the south being the reason for a different spelling. I don't know what 'broader accent' means, and I'm not sure it means anything particularly. Dougg ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 09:02, 22 April 2009 (UTC).
I've tag this section as unsourced which it is, I also have concerns of the way in which people are descibed I have never heard of a "Perth Type" to refer to a subgroup/family grouping for Indigenous peoples. My intention is to remove this particular description, and I have removed the use of "type" in the headings. Gnan garra 11:41, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
From Madge V., "New perspective", Letters to the Editor, Victoria Park Examiner, 29 February 2012, p7ff: "I then got chatting to an elder male... He explained they are not actually the Noongar people, but Bibbulmun people. Noongar means man and Yorga means woman. Apparently the white man... asked the men who they were, they answered noongar, meaning men. And the name stuck."
About 3-5000 years ago, before the Swan River existed, the Whadjuk people would walk to Rottnest in due season, stopping at a freshwater spring now located offshore from Trigg. Then the sea levels rose, and sometime later an earthquake opened the northern end of Lake Yealering, or more probably the west end of Noonalling Lake which was fed from Lake Yealering, allowing the flow of excess water down what is now the Avon River. This encouraged the Rainbow Serpents (yes, plural) to take residence in what had previously been a fairly arid part of the world. The waters of the Avon river augmented the Canning River, and opened Blackwall Reach. 203.161.102.82 ( talk) 09:25, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
The article states that prisoners on Rottnest were sent there for "offences ranging from spearing livestock, burning the bush or digging vegetables". Yet if you follow the links to the old Sunday Times archives, you'll see that in the articles condemning the conditions of the prison, the description of some individual prisoners as rapists, murderers etc. It is misleading to imply that prisoners were only sent to Rottnest for trivial offences. Whilst conditions were appalling (by today's standards), at least some of the prisoners were hardened criminals. One of the prisoners in the 1890s apparently used to murder aboriginal women by breaking their necks. A more accurate description would be for "offences ranging from spearing livestock, burning the bush and digging vegetables to murder." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.161.78.193 ( talk) 05:05, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
(removed from text)
Other Australian Aboriginal groups
Insufficient qualification as to why this list should be a subset of the see also - requires more than simply inclusion, unless argued otherwise
JarrahTree
06:24, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
@ Gnangarra: This edit compares six seasons with four climatic zones, but I don't think this makes sense. A climatic zone a covers the whole year – it is not a division of the year – so it's probably not appropriate to compare number of seasons to number of climatic zones. Was the intent to compare the 6 Noongar seasons with the 4 European seasons (summer, autumn, winter, spring)? Mitch Ames ( talk) 13:56, 11 July 2019 (UTC)
Is something preventing you from making any improvement...— Yes, the fact that I don't know what point the sentence is trying to make. The edit is sufficiently ambiguous for me not to be confident in making a correction that is both factually correct and consistent with the editor's intent. So, per WP:TALK#DISCUSS I think that "the talk page is ... the place to ask about another editor's changes". Mitch Ames ( talk) 11:42, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
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‘The southwest can be divided into four major Mediterranean climatic types differentiated by the number of dry months in the year. These vary from Moderate Mediterranean with 3-4 dry months in the extreme southwest to Semi-desert Mediterranean in the goldfields with 9-11 dry months.
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As early as 10,000 BP Noongar utilised quartz, replacing chert flint for spear and knife edges when the chert deposits were submerged by sea level rise during the Flandrian transgression
The people indigenous to the South-West made a slow transition from using chert to knapping quartz in fashioning flints for spear and knife edges, starting around 12,000 BP, roughly contemporaneously with the onset of the Flandrian transgression. [2]
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what has European season got to do with any thing" — I used the term "European" (as in " European Australian") because I thought it less offensive than "white fella's seasons". Regardless of the adjective used to distinguish the 4 traditional seasons of spring, summer, autumn and winter from the 6 Noongar seasons, my question stands - did you intend to compare the number of Noongar seasons with the number of non-Noongar seasons rather than climatic zones? (I'm not disputing the number of Noongar seasons, only the " apples to oranges" comparison of seasons to climatic zones.) Mitch Ames ( talk) 12:07, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
‘The southwest can be divided into four major Mediterranean climatic types differentiated by the number of dry months in the year. These vary from Moderate Mediterranean with 3-4 dry months in the extreme southwest to Semi-desert Mediterranean in the goldfields with 9-11 dry months. [1]
The Noongar peoples have six seasons whose time frame is defined by specific observable changes to the environment, with a dry period varying from as few as three to as many as eleven months. [1]
'The Nyungar people made use of the species during the season Kambarang, around October to early December, obtaining bark to make shields. The gum that exudes from the wound can be collected later, it is sweet and eaten raw.[16] Moodjar (or Muja) is regarded as a protected tree by the Nyungar peoples of Southwest Australia, the species is noted as being incorporated into rituals and having a conservation status that forbids their destruction.'
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Noongar covers an area that isnt even solely a Mediterranean climate zone, in the Southwest it includes snow fields and the north, to the east and south east its desert, centrally for the majority of its area its dry savanna.
Noongar historical records include the climatic changes 15,000 years ago
it should be comparative which I started with and no one liked— I raised the original objection because you were comparing different things - seasons to climatic zones. If you want compare the Noongar seasons to something, compare them to other seasons (or appropriate " divisions of the year"), not climatic zones. That's why I initially asked whether your intent was to compare the Noongar seasons to the four European/traditional seasons summer, autumn, winter spring.
the other issue ... arguing that Noongar wasnt noongar 10,000 years ago— The issue of what word we use to refer to the people is independent of the "seasons/climatic zones" issue. Could editors who want to discuss "how to refer to the people" please create a separate section for that discussion. Per WP:TALKNEW: Make a new heading for a new topic.
Birak;Bunuru; Djeran; Makuru; Djilba; Kambarang.
To a comment by
Nishidani
above, I've added the three proposed sources Giblett-2013, Entwisle-2014, ABOM-2016 using WorldCat to augment the references more fully. Also added the sfn's as suggested; note, these have been augmented with direct-to-section links using the |loc=
param, which permits more apt refs per season bullet. (Note: ABOM-2016 is the one you identified as IWK-2016 w/o author; but WorldCat lists an institutional author, and author-linked it to the WP article.)
Mathglot (
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05:54, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
Added another break, because the comment below responds to the meta-topic of how to manage this section, and is not about the topic of sources.
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That is very considerate of you. The talk section is long because I pose problems, and cite new texts, only to be talked at, insulted, or ignored. I'm still waiting for someone to actually analyse the issues I raised, otherwise I will just be condemned to talking to myself. It's a classic case of the marriage of WP:IDIDNOTHEARTHAT and not assuming good faith, and there's nothing I can do about it. Nishidani ( talk) 06:37, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
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Collapsed as promised, after meta-discussion became quiescent. Mathglot ( talk) 08:28, 22 July 2019 (UTC)
Noongar means ‘a person of the south-west of Western Australia,’ or the name for the ‘original inhabitants of the south-west of Western Australia’ and we are one of the largest Aboriginal cultural blocks in Australia. Noongar boodja – (country) covers the entire south-western portion of Western Australia. The boundary commences on the west coast at a point north of Jurien Bay, proceeds roughly easterly to a point approximately north of Moora and then roughly south-east to a point on the southern coast between Bremer Bay and Esperance. There is no evidence that there has been any other group than Noongar in the South-West. Archaeological evidence establishes that we Noongar have lived in the area and had possession of tracts of land on our country for at least 45,000 years. -- http://www.noongar.org.au/ Facts;
lets start with just one source, read https://openresearch-repository.anu.edu.au/bitstream/1885/145797/1/PL-C124.pdf HANDBOOK OF WESTERN AUSTRALIAN ABORIGINAL LANGUAGES SOUTH OF THE KIMBERLEY REGION by Department of Linguistics Research School of Pacific Studies THE AUSTRALIAN NATIONAL UNIVERSITY, take note of 4 & 16 though it wouldnt hurt to actually read the whole lot between 4 & 16, then see pages 33-69. for a start on issues about language. After that we can talk about pronunciation and how the spoken word differs from the north to the south with the emphasis shifting from the first vowel and trailing off to having the emphasis on the last vowel, who the words were written down not by linguists but collected by general settlers, how the spellings are the result of the individual who wrote the word down based on what they understood to represent the sound, be they French, German, Spanish, Latin or the various english speakers. Contemporary sources, include the works of the Bunbury Language centre, those Kim Scott, Len Collard and many others all of Noongar heritage have extensively addressed the works. Elders have since the 1990's agreed to standard Nyungar language form specifically for the teaching of Noongar in Schools. For every word its easy to find to find a dozen different spelling but for which most of them are exactly the same when pronounced. Gnan garra 09:53, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
"Archaeological evidence establishes that we Noongar have lived in the area and had possession of tracts of land on our country for at least 45,000 years." original post Gnan garra 07:18, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
(a) There is no evidence that there has been any other group than Noongar in the South-West.(b) Archaeological evidence establishes that we Noongar have lived in the area and had possession of tracts of land on our country for at least 45,000 years.
There is no evidence that there has been any other group than Arabs/Jews in Palestine. Archaeological evidence establishes that we Arabs/Jews have lived in the area and had possession of tracts of land on our country for at least 45,000 years.
Your source states ... (a) There is no evidence that there has been any other group than Noongar in the South-West ...— I did not mention that sentence at all; my question was about (b) "Archaeological evidence establishes that we Noongar have lived in the area...". Never mind, Mathglot has answered the question, politely. [7] [8] Mitch Ames ( talk) 13:36, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
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Before the arrival of Europeans, the Noongar population has been estimated at 45,000 years BCE.
Version 906814849 contained an assertion about tribal age that is unverified. According to Wikipedia:Verifiability, "The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material, and it is satisfied by providing an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports the contribution." Since that was not provided, I have removed the assertion.
I now hereby officially challenge the removed assertion. Per Wikipedia:Verifiability challenges, "You may not restore unsourced material to an article after it has been WP:CHALLENGEd, unless you provide an inline citation to a reliable source that supports the material." Any attempt to restore this material in a manner that is contrary to policy, will be considered disruptive editing. Thanks, Mathglot ( talk) 07:38, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
Before the arrival of Europeans, the Noongar population has been estimated at 45,000 years BCE.
Will you accept the below (the second being a summary of the first)?
In challenging the assertion that Noongar have lived in the South West of Western Australia for at least 45,000 years, Mathglot is asserting that someone else was inhabiting the South West before Noongar.
French painters ... in ... France, 17,000 years agois a valid comparison. The French people are those who are identified with the country of France, the " the land of the Franks" and it's generally accepted that the land of the Franks did not exist before the Franks themselves, "whose name was first mentioned in 3rd century Roman sources". No-one asserts that the French/Franks existed 17,000 years ago in the land now called France. However the Noongar (whose word for themselves means "man" or "person" , not "people of Western Australia", or "people of Terra Australis", or people of any other relatively recently named place) do assert that they lived 45,000 years ago in the land now known as the south-west of Western Australia. Mitch Ames ( talk) 09:51, 22 July 2019 (UTC)
(a)According to their traditional beliefs, Noongar people have lived in the South West of Western Australia since time immemorial. (b) Archaeological evidence from Perth and Albany confirms that the region has been occupied for at least 45,000 years, with some caves at Devil's Lair in the hills near Margaret River showing human habitation from 47,000 years ago. 'South West Native Title Settlement,' Government of Western Australia 14 March 2018
This section concerns 3 points.
Moores work also explains how that the language was spoken perface IX sKGS area the last syllable was cut, to the north the last syllable was lengthened, once you add in the interchangability of P/B, D/T, and G/Q/K. I'll add to that though Salvado word lists are an outrider to all other wordlist complied by Bindon & Chadwick and published by the WA Museum in 2011. Gnan garra 11:45, 22 July 2019 (UTC)
and then Yungar YUNG AR subst People The name by which they designate themselves
I suggest something along the following lines:-
The earliest known human occupation of the present Noongar area of Southwestern Australia dates back to ~48,000 B.P. [a]
The Aboriginal population of the south west at the outset of white colonization is generally thought to have been around 6,000-7,500. [2] In the early days of settlement Sir James Stirling posited a density of 1 indigenous person per square mile in 1832 and, diminishing rapidly under the presssure of white settlement, 1 person per 2 square miles in 1837. [3] In 1930, Alfred Radcliffe-Brown’s calculations led him to surmise 1 native per 4 square miles, a figure which, extrapolated for the whole area, suggested an indigenous population on the eve of European settlement of around 12,500. [4]This high figure was challenged by Clarence Makin in 1970, [5] and in 1973 Ronald Berndt, accepting Makin’s criticisms of Radcliffe-Brown’s estimation, argued that the original numbers were probably not less than 7.500, if the estimate took into account adjacent tribes in the circumcising inland area. [6] Nishidani ( talk) 11:49, 22 July 2019 (UTC)
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There has been some discussion previously (most recently just above) about the reliability of certain sources. I wanted to recall some general principles about this, and then address the reliability of one source that has been questioned specifically. The general principle rgarding reliability and sources, is that "Articles must be based on reliable, independent, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." In this formulation, we sometimes remember the reliable part, but forget the independent. Independent sources are sometimes called "third-party sources". WP:Identifying and using independent sources has this to say: "Reliance on independent sources ensures that an article can be written from a balanced, disinterested viewpoint rather than from the subject's own viewpoint or from the viewpoint of people with an axe to grind. It then poses the question, "How to identify indpendent sources?" and answers this way:
Finally, in questioning whether something is a reliable source or not, as it says in the Verifiability policy, section #What counts as a reliable source, "The appropriateness of any source depends on the context." A source may be reliable for one thing, such as their own stated opinions, and unreliable for something else, such as matters of established fact, because they are too close to the subject. This is part of the neutrality policy. The way Wikipedia handles this, is by the distinction between saying something largely supported by the majority of reliable sources in Wikipedia's voice (e.g., The Earth revolves around the Sun.), versus presenting something that is a biased statement of opinion "only with in-text attribution." (e.g., The Flat Earth society believes that the sun revolves around the Earth.). That is to say, the Flat Earth society is reliable for its own beliefs, but unreliable for astronomy and orbital mechanics. In discussing below whether indidividual sources are reliable in a particular context or not, ideally we will achieve a strong consensus. If we do not, however, the next step would be to raise an issue at WP:RSN. Comments about the reliability of specific sources follow in subsections (one source per section, please!) below. Thanks, Mathglot ( talk) 22:02, 22 July 2019 (UTC) |
Collapsed this section because an editor had an objection to it. Mathglot ( talk) 03:09, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
This subsection concerns the reliability of the website noongar.org.au. This website is maintained by the South West Aboriginal Land & Sea Council, an "organisation that represents the Noongar people" [1]
This section is, in part, a response to Mitch's "what's wrong with it" comment, here. This website can be presumed non-independent for matters concerning the Noongar people, because they are closely affiliated with the subject (see second bullet above).
Because of their non-independence, in addressing whether noongar.org.au is a reliable source or not, it depends on context. For matters of opinion concerning what the Noongar people believe, they can be considered reliable, in my opinion. This would mean that WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV applies, and assertions sourced to this website, require in-text attribution; that is, double-quotes, and the naming of a source in the running text. For example, you could say:
The Southwest Aboriginal Land & Sea Council believes that "The earliest evidence of Noongar occupation of the south-west was around 45,000 BP." [2]
But since they are not independent, you could not state this in Wikipedia's voice. That is, the following would not be acceptable in the article:
The earliest evidence of Noongar occupation of the south-west was around 45,000 BP. [2]
Thus, in my opinion, SWAL&SC website is reliable for Noongar belief, and is not reliable for scientific pursuits such as genetics, archaeology, paleontology, anthropology, and so on, since they don't claim to be, and are not, reliable in any of those fields, and because the website is self-published by a non-independent, organisation that can be assumed to have an organisational bias about issues concerning the Noongar people. Mathglot ( talk) Mathglot ( talk) 22:34, 22 July 2019 (UTC)
References
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Articles independently published in serious, academic, peer-reviewed journals are almost always considered reliable sources. (Some unreliable sources make claims about being peer-reviewed which are faulty or suspect; those can be considered on a case-by-case basis; but check the archives at WP:RSN first.)
Articles in highly prestigious journals are almost always reliable (which is not to say these journals have never screwed up, but it's rare). Example:
Such articles would be considered a primary source, thus not ideal in many situations, since Wikipedia prefers secondary sources.
Reviews of a reliable study published by generally reliable sources are generally considered reliable. Exampe:
A review is a secondary source, and thus is generally a good type of source to use as a reference. Mathglot ( talk) 23:12, 22 July 2019 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Noongar (disambiguation) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 14:34, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Noongar (disambiguation) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 13:17, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
There is a citation needed for the post on zamia palm leading to contraception. I have seen this was linked to fasting by a boya or birthing stone, and the fact that wedjalas destroyed the birthing stone at Gooninup. Has anyone got a reference?
Regards, EaChanan ( talk) 05:52, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
Their dry period did not last for 11 months. The quote by Nayton is not relevant here. I propose it be edited out. EaChanan ( talk) 06:02, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
"Harry Hobbs and George Williams of the Faculty of Law at the University of New South Wales have described the Settlement as 'Australia's First Treaty'." [1] See: http://www.noongar.org.au/s/The-Noongar-Settlement-First-Australian-Treaty.pdf for the article in which they do so.
References
Three Aboriginal men of Perth are identified as Monday, Doomera and Djar [1]
References
@ Betterkeks: With [9] [10] we seem to have resolved two of the three items contested in [11] [12]. Perhaps we can improve on the third:
Rottnest Island ( Nyungar: Wadjemup, possibly meaning "place across the water"
)
I still think that inserting the Noongar name and meaning here disrupts the flow of the text and does not add information that is relevant in this context. The (linked) Rottnest Island article includes the Noongar name (and meaning, and pre-Colonial history), which is the appropriate place to put it. Perhaps it is possible to include the information in the text flow in some way that is contextually relevant to the reader, but I can't think of any. Here's a couple of purely made-up examples to illustrate:
An alternative would simply be to move the existing text into a footnote, which fixes the disruption to text flow. But even in a footnote, that text alone means nothing to the reader. I'd rather see some text that explains to the reader why the name is relevant here, specifically. Mitch Ames ( talk) 07:46, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
Birdsall 1987 p.1. refers to no text in the bibliography. If it cannot be retrieved (no doubt someone in the relentlessly bad editing characteristic of this page has removed it) it goes out. Nishidani ( talk) 23:19, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
@ Amborille:, re [14] [15] [16] [17] ... As it states in his article, although Mark Parton has Noongar heritage, he "[does] not identify as Aboriginal". [1] Consequently we ought not include him in Aboriginal/Noongar categories, lists etc. Please discuss, rather than simply re-adding him, if you disagree. Mitch Ames ( talk) 23:35, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
References
Do we have / need guidelines for what constitutes Modern vs Historical for the purposes of listing notable Noongar people? I would not have considered Graham Farmer (1935-2019) or Jack Davis (playwright) (1917-2000) to be "historical", but Amborille apparently does: [18] [19] [20]. Mitch Ames ( talk) 23:54, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
I think the list in this article should be removed altogether— Agreed. Delete the section Noongar § Notable Noongar people, and instead add List of Noongar people, and Category:Noongar people to Noongar § See also. Mitch Ames ( talk) 05:00, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
the article should only identify a limited number of people who have a legacy impact Like Polly, Jack, Yagan, Kim Scott— Jack Davis, Yagan, Kim Scott are already mentioned in the appropriate sections (Culture, History of contact). Mitch Ames ( talk) 00:49, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
I have moved 1 comment each by Gnangarra and JarrahTree from Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Western Australia#Definition of "modern" vs "historical" Noongar people to here to avoid fragmenting the discussion. Mitch Ames ( talk) 02:12, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
some groups have very specific rules regarding whether people are mentioned ...— Fortunately Wikipedia has its own rules, so "some [other] groups" rules probably don't apply here.
It is something that has implications for the whole Australian project— I'm sure you'll post a link when you start that discussion. In the meantime, specific suggestions for this article would be appreciated. Mitch Ames ( talk) 02:19, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
I've
removed the ever-growing list, and replaced it with a "See also" entry. As
Gnangarra suggested (on this page and at
the recent meetup), someone might care to write a few paragraphs about a few specific people who are notable for being Noongar.
Mitch Ames (
talk)
04:51, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
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