This
level-5 vital article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||
|
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Want to help write or improve articles about Time? Join
WikiProject Time or visit the
Time Portal for a list of articles that need improving.
—
Yamara
✉
08:42, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Could someone explain why solar noon usually occurs during the early afternoon? — Knowledge Seeker দ 14:31, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
As I understand it, since we use time zones, in most places solar noon and clock noon do not coincide, so I'm reverting back to say that. Or am I missing something? — Knowledge Seeker দ 08:19, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Here is the original sentence:
Since we use time zones &c, there are few (=not many) places where the times coincide. To say that there are few places and times where they do not coincide would imply that they coincide in most places. — Knowledge Seeker দ 08:30, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"Despite this strict logic, it is common practice in the United States to designate noon as 12:00 pm." From the p.m. article. i think this should be incorperated — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.112.232.76 ( talk) 21:54, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
I think a mention of the fact that 'p.m.' is valid for times arbitrarily close to the notional "12:00", i.e. 12:00:00.0000001 should be included. -- Random832 13:36, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
What is this obsession with strict literal accuracy of these terms? Does anyone do the same for anything else? Of course not. What horrors would ensue if we simply accept the new de facto convention as legitimate? (The de facto convention is that 12:00 a.m. denotes 12:00 midnight at the beginning of the day and 12:00 p.m. denotes noon.) Why doesn't anyone bring up the same point with anno Domini (AD)? "Strict logic" of the same sort used against the de facto convention for 12 a.m. and 12 p.m. shows that AD is not legitimate to use for any year. This is because we do not know in which year Christ was born (putting aside the contentious issue of the status of Christ -- regardless, the obvious intent of AD is with reference to the birth of Christ). So if a.m. and p.m. are illegitimate for 12:00, then AD is illegitimate for any year by the same type of literalist argument. PLEASE, literalists: explain why you object to 12:00 a.m. and p.m. but not to AD.
Why should we be stuck with the archaic and obselete definitions of ante and post mereidiem? These terms originated when people used Local Solar Time. In that system of time, noon really is when the sun crosses the meridian. But we now use a much more sophisticated system of Standard Time, time zones, and such. Only for a few select meridians is noon the time when the sun crosses the meridian. And these places oscillate throughout the year due to the equation of time!
More later. --Alan Feldman 2007/01/30 3:00 UTC
Noon itself has evolved over the years: Look in the dictionary -- it used to mean midnight!!! And etymologically speaking, it used to mean ninth hour.
I quote from the article in its current state:
The word "noon" is derived from Latin nona hora, the ninth hour of the day. As the Roman day started on 6.00 a.m., at sunrise, the first hour would have been from 6.00 till 7.00 a.m and the ninth hour from 2.00 till 3.00 p.m. These hours were important in monasteries, as different prayers were held on them.
The English word "noon" originally applied at 2.00 p.m., but by 1100 AD the meaning had shifted to "midday".
end of quote
So by 1100 AD the meaning of noon had shifted!!! Well, in the late 20th century, the meaning of a.m. and p.m. have shifted so that 12 a.m. is midnight at the beginning of the day and 12 p.m. is noon. At least this is the de facto meaning. Officials are behind the times; they are pretending that digital clocks don't exist.
So I ask: Why the different "etymological treatment" of noon, AD, and a.m./p.m.? Why can the first two terms evolve but not the third?
Alan E. Feldman 2007/02/06 02:07 UTC.
The reason being that 12am and 12pm are easily confused - I recently saw a document emanating from a university which referred to the same time of day as both 12am and 12pm. The fact is that - quite apart from the argument that words have meanings for a very good reason - noon and midnight are clear and unambiguous, which cannot be said for 12am and 12pm.
Stuart Robinson —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.15.47.59 ( talk) 23:58, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
The article apparently contradicts itself by stating that it is not proper to refer to 12:00 as am or pm, but that it is considered good style (at least by the US government) to do so. I think the section stating that it is not proper should simply be removed. Such pedantry goes against the common usage of the terms and is possibly inaccurate. Times are usually stated to the minute, so 12:00 is actually accurate from midday to 12:01 pm. This justifies 12pm=noon.
The note that the official US style was opposite until 2000 amazes me. It may be that this confusion is a particularly American thing. In the UK, 12pm has been noon for as long as I can remember without anyone being confused about it, and in the large sections of the world which use the 24 hour clock there is even less confusion.
At any rate, this suggests that this confusion should not be given the prominence it has in the article. My suggested text is:
With 12-hour time notation there is some confusion as to whether noon should be written as 12:00 am or 12:00 pm. It is most common to refer to noon as 12 p.m and midnight as 12 a.m. and this is commonly displayed on digital clocks and computers. The 30th edition of the U.S. Government Style Manual (2008) recommends the use of "12 a.m." for midnight and "12 p.m." for noon (although the 29th edition recommended the opposite). To avoid the confusion, people often say "12 noon", as opposed to "12 midnight".
In 24-hour time notation, this confusion does not arise as noon is written as 12:00 while midnight is written as 00:00 (or, more unusually, 24:00).
Note that in my suggested texst I have removed the section on the ambiguity about midnight. It does not belong to an article about "noon" and should be transfered to the article for "midnight" - if it isn't already there.
BTW all of this reminded me of the classic conundrum: "At the stroke of midnight, is today the same as yesterday, or the same as tomorrow?" Agneau ( talk) 22:32, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
It becomes more confusing when one considers the military 24 hour clock, as at the 24th hour (midnight) one has a.m. when it is the last moment of the clock and day. Being the last moment of the 24 hour day, it should be p.m., not a.m. by rationality of the 24 hour clock/day. 208.90.160.18 ( talk) 02:30, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
"In addition, p.m. is often associated with night so 12 a.m. may seem to be midnight." What does this mean? Should the a.m. in that sentence actually be p.m.? -- Banyan ( talk) 18:31, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
I know a completely different etymology. According to this, noon is an incorrect rededuction from afternoon which again is derived from Old Norse "aftonon" (the evening).
I grew up knowing "high noon" as equivalent to "solar noon", rather than simply "noon", as would be implied by the unqualified link to this article from high noon, followed by this article's silence on the term. Tomer talk 06:49, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
The article says that meridian transit and culmination of the sun, i.e., its reaching its highest elevation above horizon, occurs at the same time. According to http://www.geoastro.de/TransitCulm/index.html (and also according to references in the German Wikipedia), these can be significantly different. Am I mistaken, over is the article oversimplifying things? -- Fabian Lenzen ( talk) 15:24, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
Do you know what the name of the day in which the earliest sunset occurs (about 2 weeks before the solstice)? Any clues? Ol'Campy ( talk) 21:10, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Noon. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 20:12, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
Seats on airlines in advance 2601:6C4:203:1AC0:A991:17D1:7DC3:CA2E ( talk) 11:26, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
This
level-5 vital article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||
|
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Want to help write or improve articles about Time? Join
WikiProject Time or visit the
Time Portal for a list of articles that need improving.
—
Yamara
✉
08:42, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Could someone explain why solar noon usually occurs during the early afternoon? — Knowledge Seeker দ 14:31, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
As I understand it, since we use time zones, in most places solar noon and clock noon do not coincide, so I'm reverting back to say that. Or am I missing something? — Knowledge Seeker দ 08:19, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Here is the original sentence:
Since we use time zones &c, there are few (=not many) places where the times coincide. To say that there are few places and times where they do not coincide would imply that they coincide in most places. — Knowledge Seeker দ 08:30, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"Despite this strict logic, it is common practice in the United States to designate noon as 12:00 pm." From the p.m. article. i think this should be incorperated — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.112.232.76 ( talk) 21:54, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
I think a mention of the fact that 'p.m.' is valid for times arbitrarily close to the notional "12:00", i.e. 12:00:00.0000001 should be included. -- Random832 13:36, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
What is this obsession with strict literal accuracy of these terms? Does anyone do the same for anything else? Of course not. What horrors would ensue if we simply accept the new de facto convention as legitimate? (The de facto convention is that 12:00 a.m. denotes 12:00 midnight at the beginning of the day and 12:00 p.m. denotes noon.) Why doesn't anyone bring up the same point with anno Domini (AD)? "Strict logic" of the same sort used against the de facto convention for 12 a.m. and 12 p.m. shows that AD is not legitimate to use for any year. This is because we do not know in which year Christ was born (putting aside the contentious issue of the status of Christ -- regardless, the obvious intent of AD is with reference to the birth of Christ). So if a.m. and p.m. are illegitimate for 12:00, then AD is illegitimate for any year by the same type of literalist argument. PLEASE, literalists: explain why you object to 12:00 a.m. and p.m. but not to AD.
Why should we be stuck with the archaic and obselete definitions of ante and post mereidiem? These terms originated when people used Local Solar Time. In that system of time, noon really is when the sun crosses the meridian. But we now use a much more sophisticated system of Standard Time, time zones, and such. Only for a few select meridians is noon the time when the sun crosses the meridian. And these places oscillate throughout the year due to the equation of time!
More later. --Alan Feldman 2007/01/30 3:00 UTC
Noon itself has evolved over the years: Look in the dictionary -- it used to mean midnight!!! And etymologically speaking, it used to mean ninth hour.
I quote from the article in its current state:
The word "noon" is derived from Latin nona hora, the ninth hour of the day. As the Roman day started on 6.00 a.m., at sunrise, the first hour would have been from 6.00 till 7.00 a.m and the ninth hour from 2.00 till 3.00 p.m. These hours were important in monasteries, as different prayers were held on them.
The English word "noon" originally applied at 2.00 p.m., but by 1100 AD the meaning had shifted to "midday".
end of quote
So by 1100 AD the meaning of noon had shifted!!! Well, in the late 20th century, the meaning of a.m. and p.m. have shifted so that 12 a.m. is midnight at the beginning of the day and 12 p.m. is noon. At least this is the de facto meaning. Officials are behind the times; they are pretending that digital clocks don't exist.
So I ask: Why the different "etymological treatment" of noon, AD, and a.m./p.m.? Why can the first two terms evolve but not the third?
Alan E. Feldman 2007/02/06 02:07 UTC.
The reason being that 12am and 12pm are easily confused - I recently saw a document emanating from a university which referred to the same time of day as both 12am and 12pm. The fact is that - quite apart from the argument that words have meanings for a very good reason - noon and midnight are clear and unambiguous, which cannot be said for 12am and 12pm.
Stuart Robinson —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.15.47.59 ( talk) 23:58, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
The article apparently contradicts itself by stating that it is not proper to refer to 12:00 as am or pm, but that it is considered good style (at least by the US government) to do so. I think the section stating that it is not proper should simply be removed. Such pedantry goes against the common usage of the terms and is possibly inaccurate. Times are usually stated to the minute, so 12:00 is actually accurate from midday to 12:01 pm. This justifies 12pm=noon.
The note that the official US style was opposite until 2000 amazes me. It may be that this confusion is a particularly American thing. In the UK, 12pm has been noon for as long as I can remember without anyone being confused about it, and in the large sections of the world which use the 24 hour clock there is even less confusion.
At any rate, this suggests that this confusion should not be given the prominence it has in the article. My suggested text is:
With 12-hour time notation there is some confusion as to whether noon should be written as 12:00 am or 12:00 pm. It is most common to refer to noon as 12 p.m and midnight as 12 a.m. and this is commonly displayed on digital clocks and computers. The 30th edition of the U.S. Government Style Manual (2008) recommends the use of "12 a.m." for midnight and "12 p.m." for noon (although the 29th edition recommended the opposite). To avoid the confusion, people often say "12 noon", as opposed to "12 midnight".
In 24-hour time notation, this confusion does not arise as noon is written as 12:00 while midnight is written as 00:00 (or, more unusually, 24:00).
Note that in my suggested texst I have removed the section on the ambiguity about midnight. It does not belong to an article about "noon" and should be transfered to the article for "midnight" - if it isn't already there.
BTW all of this reminded me of the classic conundrum: "At the stroke of midnight, is today the same as yesterday, or the same as tomorrow?" Agneau ( talk) 22:32, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
It becomes more confusing when one considers the military 24 hour clock, as at the 24th hour (midnight) one has a.m. when it is the last moment of the clock and day. Being the last moment of the 24 hour day, it should be p.m., not a.m. by rationality of the 24 hour clock/day. 208.90.160.18 ( talk) 02:30, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
"In addition, p.m. is often associated with night so 12 a.m. may seem to be midnight." What does this mean? Should the a.m. in that sentence actually be p.m.? -- Banyan ( talk) 18:31, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
I know a completely different etymology. According to this, noon is an incorrect rededuction from afternoon which again is derived from Old Norse "aftonon" (the evening).
I grew up knowing "high noon" as equivalent to "solar noon", rather than simply "noon", as would be implied by the unqualified link to this article from high noon, followed by this article's silence on the term. Tomer talk 06:49, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
The article says that meridian transit and culmination of the sun, i.e., its reaching its highest elevation above horizon, occurs at the same time. According to http://www.geoastro.de/TransitCulm/index.html (and also according to references in the German Wikipedia), these can be significantly different. Am I mistaken, over is the article oversimplifying things? -- Fabian Lenzen ( talk) 15:24, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
Do you know what the name of the day in which the earliest sunset occurs (about 2 weeks before the solstice)? Any clues? Ol'Campy ( talk) 21:10, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Noon. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 20:12, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
Seats on airlines in advance 2601:6C4:203:1AC0:A991:17D1:7DC3:CA2E ( talk) 11:26, 18 March 2024 (UTC)