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I removed this from the page,"Several works of Solomon: 2,135 proverbs; 1,003 songs; and a manual on botany. Referenced at 1Kings 4:32. "
Whoever posted this may be referring to another verse, so I thought I'd quote it so you can check what verse it was. However, there is no verse 4:32, as chapter 4 of 1 kings ends with verse 20. Abdishtar ( talk) 17:07, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
Hypostasis of the Archons features a number of ideas that don't appear until the second century CE, when Gnosticism got into full swing. The Gospel of John was more likely than not written between 90-100 CE. It is unlikely that it is Hypostasis of the Archons quoted, but the Gospel of John. Hypostasis of the Archons quotes plenty of other works throughout it.
I propose that the information in Lost books of the Old Testament and Lost books of the New Testament be merged into Non-canonical books referenced in the Bible as these articles are duplicates of each other. Besides, the title "Lost books of the Old Testament" implies that the works were at any time canonical books, an assertion for which there is no proof.
Besides, the "Lost books" list could do with a cleanup. The Book of Esther is not historical, it is a work of fiction, and the soporific "Chronicles of the Kings of Media and Persia" would be properly classified as a fictional book, not a lost book. Dr Zak 23:09, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
I've gone ahead and boldly merged Lost books of the New Testament & Lost books of the Hebrew Bible here. I realize there was no consensus from this discussion to do so, and this will probably be somewhat of a contentious action, but let me explain why I did it. As I've stated numerous times already, "Lost books of the New Testament" & "Lost books of the Hebrew Bible" are absolutely misnomers as far as titles are concerned. These books are lost works, but those titles denote they are lost works of the NT and HB, i.e. they were at one time included in those collections. This is simply not the case and there is no verifiable, reliable scholorship to suggest that is so. Even if these articles were renamed to Lost Books Referenced in the Hebrew Bible (or NT as the case may be), it still necessitates a separate article for Non-canonical books referenced in the Bible to cover pseudepigraphy. What I am trying to achieve here is a bit of "one-stop" shopping. These so-called "lost books" do fit under the canopy of "non-cannonical" (as they were never included in the cannonical Tanakh or New Testament) better that pseudepigraphal books fall under the moniker of "lost". Philo raised the issue of naming between "Bible" and "Hebrew Bible" in his move of Lost books of the Old Testament to Lost books of the Hebrew Bible. This is a legitimate concern and I can see a case being made to split this out into Books referenced in the New Testament and Books referenced in the Hebrew Bible (or Books referenced in the Tanakh. But either way the term "lost" should be left out of the title as it is misleading does not correctly depict the status of the books listed here.-- Isotope23 16:37, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps "texts" would be a more accurate term than "books." Just a thought. I also recommend changing the subheaders. Some texts (like 1 Enoch) do not fall into clear-cut Christian-related or Jewish-related categories. How about, "Texts Mentioned in the Hebrew Bible" and "Texts Mentioned in the Christian New Testament"? There should also be a footnote for the Book of Enoch to the effect that while it is non-canonical for most modern Christian groups, it is included in the Ethiopian Coptic canon. CaliforniaKid 06:31, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Note: The URL redirects from "Lost Books" ie., " http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Lost_books_of_the_New_Testament&redirect=no" to this page "Non-canonical books" can be used, by other websites, to mislead since non-canonical books cannot be lost from a canonical collection.
Wiki example below: The supposed Earlier Epistle (Epistle just means a letter) to the Ephesians Referenced at Ephesians 3:3-4. The assumption: If it's referenced in the canon then it must have been lost.
Rebutal by John Calvin: It would be highly probable that he (Paul, the writer to the Ehpesians)would write many epistles, both of a public and private nature, to various places. Let us rest assured, that what is left is enough for us, and that the smallness of the remaining number is not the result of accident; but that the body of Scripture, which is in our possession, has been adjusted by the wonderful counsel of God. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Isotope23 ( talk • contribs) 01:55, 31 March 2007 (UTC).
This particular piece of apocrypha is extensively utilized in the New Testament. Yet it isn't mentioned here, or in any of the articles on non-canonical/apocryphal works. Fuzzform ( talk) 20:09, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
The single half-sentence, "And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light." cannot be proof enough that the "Life of Adam and Eve" was referenced. 128.192.147.188 ( talk) 14:31, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
In the Life of Adam and Eve 9:1 it reads "Satan ... transformed himself into the brightness of angels" and its a pretty important part of the story. The pseudopigraphical Life of Adam and Eve was older than the New Testament, and the idea of Satan appearing as an angel of light does not appear in the Old Testament ("Lucifer" was Halel, a title for a Babylonian King, the rest of Isaiah 14, as well as the surrounding chapters, makes this perfectly clear). Ian.thomson ( talk) 03:55, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
The phrase "whats up cracker" appears in a few places on the page if you view the page without signing in. If you sign in the phrase disapears. Is this a strange kind of vandalism of Wikipedia? -- Terrencemorgan ( talk) 02:43, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
Does a reference to a non-canonical book exist just because there is similar language? Some of Paul's so-called references seem to be little more than his borrowing of a turn of phrase. In at least one case, a supposedly non-canonical source seems canonical to me. Chronicles refers to a "book of Samuel, the seer" describing the deeds of King David. Last I checked, there was a book in the bible accredited to Samuel, who was a seer, and that book was largely about the deeds of King David. That got me wondering whether the book of Kings (like Chronicles and Samuel, usually published as two books in most modern bibles) records any of the other writings referenced in Chronicles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.204.177.2 ( talk) 16:53, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
"Look", said La Tia. "Do you see what I see?"
To say that Paul in Galatians 6:15 and Mary in Luke 1:52 are quotes are like saying that this line is a direct quote of John Adams when he writes:
Is anybody there? Does anybody care? Does anybody see what I see?
Also I seriously doubt that Paul's conversion to Christianity (Acts 9 & 20) has anything to do with Plato's Dialogues on Atlantis. I also find it hard to imagine exactly how can Ephesians 5:14 can be a reference to both The Apocryphon of Jeremiah And The Apocalypse of Elijah. Jude 3 says: "Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints." This is simply not a reference. As to these so-called, "lost Pauline letters", I find it necessary to remind you that Paul wrote 14 Epistles, thus, when he mentions in 2 Corinthians of an "earlier letter" he probably means 1 Corinthians. And when 1 Corinthians mentions an "earlier letter", he could mean any number of previous letters which are certainly not lost. Same thing applies to 3 John 1:9. last time I checked, there is a 1 & 2 John, as well as the Gospel of John written earlier. With these and countless other points in mind, I AM READY TO DELETE THIS SECTION! -- Nate5713 ( talk) 20:42, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
The article reads:
Referenced can mean direct quotations, paraphrases, or allusions.
Which is clearly violated by this section.-- Nate5713 ( talk) 20:35, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
Some of these references to non-canonical books have expanded discussions elsewhere in Wikipedia. Wouldn't it be worthwhile to make links from here to those discussions (and back from those discussions to here)? I would just go ahead with a couple of them that I know about, but I would undoubtedly not be able to find all of them, and I wouldn't want to go through the effort of a systematic search-and-update if the results are not welcome. I intend to make a couple of those links just to see how it looks to others. TomS TDotO ( talk) 12:59, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
For the sake of completeness, there should be a section for appropriate references in what is variously called the Biblical apocrypha or Deuterocanonical books. Unless someone has a better idea, I will start this off with the rather tedious chore of going through the marginal notes in the Jerusalem Bible. I would appreciate help, not only because it is tedious, but also because I am confident that I will make errors of omission and commission. TomS TDotO ( talk) 17:52, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
What good is Wikipedia as a resource if it just directs you to the Greek New Testament? It should cite the Greek New Testament as justification for a complete list. -- 134.193.184.133 ( talk) 16:10, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
I am not an apologist for the LDS, but ISTM that it is appropriate to mention the belief of the LDS about the Book of Jasher. There is a difference from saying that a significant number of people believe such and such and saying that that belief is credible. I hope that the ordinary reader of Wikipedia could tell the difference. TomS TDotO ( talk) 00:02, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
Beth Allison Barr's recent book The Making of Biblical Womanhood draws a connection between Paul's discussion of women being silent in the church to Livy's contemporary work History of Rome. Barr makes a case that Paul responds to a Corinthian application of Livy/Cato by quoting a preceding letter (now lost) in 1 Cor 14:34-35 then responding in opposition in verse 36. I only have Barr's book on an eReader and have only accessed Livy online, so I am hesitant to make this addition to the "Pagan authors" list without all the right references.
History of Rome by Livy, quoting Cato's speech regarding the Oppian Law, may be paraphrased in 1 Corinthians 14:34-35. "What kind of behavior is this? Running around in public, blocking streets, and speaking to other women's husbands! Could you not have asked our own husbands the same thing at home?" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.135.202.41 ( talk) 15:20, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
An unknown messianic prophecy possibly from a non-canonical source, quoted in Matthew 2:23 that states "...he will be called a Nazorian." ... "Nazorian" is typically rendered as "Nazarene" ("from Nazareth"), as in Acts 24:5, where Christians are referred to as "the sect of the Nazorians/Nazarenes"...."
This is completely off base. The reference is to Zechariah 3:8 & 6:12. The name "Nazareth" means "city of the Branch." — Preceding unsigned comment added by GnatFriend ( talk • contribs) 10:39, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
This article is rated List-class on Wikipedia's
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I removed this from the page,"Several works of Solomon: 2,135 proverbs; 1,003 songs; and a manual on botany. Referenced at 1Kings 4:32. "
Whoever posted this may be referring to another verse, so I thought I'd quote it so you can check what verse it was. However, there is no verse 4:32, as chapter 4 of 1 kings ends with verse 20. Abdishtar ( talk) 17:07, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
Hypostasis of the Archons features a number of ideas that don't appear until the second century CE, when Gnosticism got into full swing. The Gospel of John was more likely than not written between 90-100 CE. It is unlikely that it is Hypostasis of the Archons quoted, but the Gospel of John. Hypostasis of the Archons quotes plenty of other works throughout it.
I propose that the information in Lost books of the Old Testament and Lost books of the New Testament be merged into Non-canonical books referenced in the Bible as these articles are duplicates of each other. Besides, the title "Lost books of the Old Testament" implies that the works were at any time canonical books, an assertion for which there is no proof.
Besides, the "Lost books" list could do with a cleanup. The Book of Esther is not historical, it is a work of fiction, and the soporific "Chronicles of the Kings of Media and Persia" would be properly classified as a fictional book, not a lost book. Dr Zak 23:09, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
I've gone ahead and boldly merged Lost books of the New Testament & Lost books of the Hebrew Bible here. I realize there was no consensus from this discussion to do so, and this will probably be somewhat of a contentious action, but let me explain why I did it. As I've stated numerous times already, "Lost books of the New Testament" & "Lost books of the Hebrew Bible" are absolutely misnomers as far as titles are concerned. These books are lost works, but those titles denote they are lost works of the NT and HB, i.e. they were at one time included in those collections. This is simply not the case and there is no verifiable, reliable scholorship to suggest that is so. Even if these articles were renamed to Lost Books Referenced in the Hebrew Bible (or NT as the case may be), it still necessitates a separate article for Non-canonical books referenced in the Bible to cover pseudepigraphy. What I am trying to achieve here is a bit of "one-stop" shopping. These so-called "lost books" do fit under the canopy of "non-cannonical" (as they were never included in the cannonical Tanakh or New Testament) better that pseudepigraphal books fall under the moniker of "lost". Philo raised the issue of naming between "Bible" and "Hebrew Bible" in his move of Lost books of the Old Testament to Lost books of the Hebrew Bible. This is a legitimate concern and I can see a case being made to split this out into Books referenced in the New Testament and Books referenced in the Hebrew Bible (or Books referenced in the Tanakh. But either way the term "lost" should be left out of the title as it is misleading does not correctly depict the status of the books listed here.-- Isotope23 16:37, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps "texts" would be a more accurate term than "books." Just a thought. I also recommend changing the subheaders. Some texts (like 1 Enoch) do not fall into clear-cut Christian-related or Jewish-related categories. How about, "Texts Mentioned in the Hebrew Bible" and "Texts Mentioned in the Christian New Testament"? There should also be a footnote for the Book of Enoch to the effect that while it is non-canonical for most modern Christian groups, it is included in the Ethiopian Coptic canon. CaliforniaKid 06:31, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Note: The URL redirects from "Lost Books" ie., " http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Lost_books_of_the_New_Testament&redirect=no" to this page "Non-canonical books" can be used, by other websites, to mislead since non-canonical books cannot be lost from a canonical collection.
Wiki example below: The supposed Earlier Epistle (Epistle just means a letter) to the Ephesians Referenced at Ephesians 3:3-4. The assumption: If it's referenced in the canon then it must have been lost.
Rebutal by John Calvin: It would be highly probable that he (Paul, the writer to the Ehpesians)would write many epistles, both of a public and private nature, to various places. Let us rest assured, that what is left is enough for us, and that the smallness of the remaining number is not the result of accident; but that the body of Scripture, which is in our possession, has been adjusted by the wonderful counsel of God. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Isotope23 ( talk • contribs) 01:55, 31 March 2007 (UTC).
This particular piece of apocrypha is extensively utilized in the New Testament. Yet it isn't mentioned here, or in any of the articles on non-canonical/apocryphal works. Fuzzform ( talk) 20:09, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
The single half-sentence, "And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light." cannot be proof enough that the "Life of Adam and Eve" was referenced. 128.192.147.188 ( talk) 14:31, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
In the Life of Adam and Eve 9:1 it reads "Satan ... transformed himself into the brightness of angels" and its a pretty important part of the story. The pseudopigraphical Life of Adam and Eve was older than the New Testament, and the idea of Satan appearing as an angel of light does not appear in the Old Testament ("Lucifer" was Halel, a title for a Babylonian King, the rest of Isaiah 14, as well as the surrounding chapters, makes this perfectly clear). Ian.thomson ( talk) 03:55, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
The phrase "whats up cracker" appears in a few places on the page if you view the page without signing in. If you sign in the phrase disapears. Is this a strange kind of vandalism of Wikipedia? -- Terrencemorgan ( talk) 02:43, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
Does a reference to a non-canonical book exist just because there is similar language? Some of Paul's so-called references seem to be little more than his borrowing of a turn of phrase. In at least one case, a supposedly non-canonical source seems canonical to me. Chronicles refers to a "book of Samuel, the seer" describing the deeds of King David. Last I checked, there was a book in the bible accredited to Samuel, who was a seer, and that book was largely about the deeds of King David. That got me wondering whether the book of Kings (like Chronicles and Samuel, usually published as two books in most modern bibles) records any of the other writings referenced in Chronicles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.204.177.2 ( talk) 16:53, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
"Look", said La Tia. "Do you see what I see?"
To say that Paul in Galatians 6:15 and Mary in Luke 1:52 are quotes are like saying that this line is a direct quote of John Adams when he writes:
Is anybody there? Does anybody care? Does anybody see what I see?
Also I seriously doubt that Paul's conversion to Christianity (Acts 9 & 20) has anything to do with Plato's Dialogues on Atlantis. I also find it hard to imagine exactly how can Ephesians 5:14 can be a reference to both The Apocryphon of Jeremiah And The Apocalypse of Elijah. Jude 3 says: "Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints." This is simply not a reference. As to these so-called, "lost Pauline letters", I find it necessary to remind you that Paul wrote 14 Epistles, thus, when he mentions in 2 Corinthians of an "earlier letter" he probably means 1 Corinthians. And when 1 Corinthians mentions an "earlier letter", he could mean any number of previous letters which are certainly not lost. Same thing applies to 3 John 1:9. last time I checked, there is a 1 & 2 John, as well as the Gospel of John written earlier. With these and countless other points in mind, I AM READY TO DELETE THIS SECTION! -- Nate5713 ( talk) 20:42, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
The article reads:
Referenced can mean direct quotations, paraphrases, or allusions.
Which is clearly violated by this section.-- Nate5713 ( talk) 20:35, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
Some of these references to non-canonical books have expanded discussions elsewhere in Wikipedia. Wouldn't it be worthwhile to make links from here to those discussions (and back from those discussions to here)? I would just go ahead with a couple of them that I know about, but I would undoubtedly not be able to find all of them, and I wouldn't want to go through the effort of a systematic search-and-update if the results are not welcome. I intend to make a couple of those links just to see how it looks to others. TomS TDotO ( talk) 12:59, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
For the sake of completeness, there should be a section for appropriate references in what is variously called the Biblical apocrypha or Deuterocanonical books. Unless someone has a better idea, I will start this off with the rather tedious chore of going through the marginal notes in the Jerusalem Bible. I would appreciate help, not only because it is tedious, but also because I am confident that I will make errors of omission and commission. TomS TDotO ( talk) 17:52, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
What good is Wikipedia as a resource if it just directs you to the Greek New Testament? It should cite the Greek New Testament as justification for a complete list. -- 134.193.184.133 ( talk) 16:10, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
I am not an apologist for the LDS, but ISTM that it is appropriate to mention the belief of the LDS about the Book of Jasher. There is a difference from saying that a significant number of people believe such and such and saying that that belief is credible. I hope that the ordinary reader of Wikipedia could tell the difference. TomS TDotO ( talk) 00:02, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
Beth Allison Barr's recent book The Making of Biblical Womanhood draws a connection between Paul's discussion of women being silent in the church to Livy's contemporary work History of Rome. Barr makes a case that Paul responds to a Corinthian application of Livy/Cato by quoting a preceding letter (now lost) in 1 Cor 14:34-35 then responding in opposition in verse 36. I only have Barr's book on an eReader and have only accessed Livy online, so I am hesitant to make this addition to the "Pagan authors" list without all the right references.
History of Rome by Livy, quoting Cato's speech regarding the Oppian Law, may be paraphrased in 1 Corinthians 14:34-35. "What kind of behavior is this? Running around in public, blocking streets, and speaking to other women's husbands! Could you not have asked our own husbands the same thing at home?" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.135.202.41 ( talk) 15:20, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
An unknown messianic prophecy possibly from a non-canonical source, quoted in Matthew 2:23 that states "...he will be called a Nazorian." ... "Nazorian" is typically rendered as "Nazarene" ("from Nazareth"), as in Acts 24:5, where Christians are referred to as "the sect of the Nazorians/Nazarenes"...."
This is completely off base. The reference is to Zechariah 3:8 & 6:12. The name "Nazareth" means "city of the Branch." — Preceding unsigned comment added by GnatFriend ( talk • contribs) 10:39, 29 June 2023 (UTC)