The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that the most prestigious award of the association of World War II's black US airmen, the
Tuskegee Airmen, is named for Noel F. Parrish, their white commanding officer?
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I think we need to consider breaking the "Tuskegee Experiment" section into several sub-sections. Done
In the Tuskegee Experiment section:
In 1936, the first black graduate there in forty-seven years after having been “silenced” there for four years.[2][16] - I think this needs some explanation and clarification. (removed)
The Tuskegee Airmen compiled the following combat record: – 261 aircraft destroyed – 148 aircraft damaged – 15,533 sorties – 1,578 missions – 66 KIA – 95 Distinguished Flying Crosses awarded – 450 Pilots sent overseas. Their operational aircraft were, in succession: P-40 Warhawk, P-39 Airacobra, P-47 Thunderbolt, and P-51 Mustang fighter aircraft.[14] Maybe put this into a table list?
out of time now, but will revisit soon. — Ched :
? 08:01, 21 June 2011 (UTC)reply
will return, won't be front page for a day or two yet. — Ched :
? 07:54, 23 June 2011 (UTC)reply
"The highest recognized presentation during a 2001 National History Day competition concluded that the Tuskegee Airmen experiment was instrumental in laying the foundation for the civil rights movement in the 1960s and became a large factor in President Harry S Truman's decision to desegregate the military in 1948." This is in the lede and doesn't mention Parish. Also, apparently it's not in the article.
the lede should clearly state what Parrish's contributions were, what he is notable for.
In revisiting this I think you are right in the sense that it's a bit too much of a tangent to be included in the lede. As such, I pulled that part out and replaced it with how he got started at Tuskegee and what positions he progressed to. Does that help? — Ched :
? 12:49, 27 December 2011 (UTC)reply
Tuskegee Experiment - as heading - don't most people think of the
Tuskegee syphilis experiment when
Tuskegee Experiment is mentioned? (that's where the redirect goes.) I realize the source refers to "the so-called "Tuskegee Experiment,"
[1] but I think the article has to clarify this if it's going to use the term. At least put it in quotes.
fixed by adding "airmen"; noting various terms are used IRL but this should clarify it.
PumpkinSkytalk 21:41, 24 December 2011 (UTC)reply
Formation of the Tuskegee Experiment
Most of this section doesn't mention Parrish but is general information about the formation of the "Tuskegee Experiment".
Just says, "As Director of Training and later Tuskegee Field commander, Parrish played a key role in the program's success." - doesn't explain his "key role" until way down in the "Initial problems" subsection.
Note that the program started well before he got there, he became dir of training in Dec 1941 and wasn't commander til Dec 1942; most of what what happened was before that. So I'm not sure what to do here while I think it important to keep this info in.
PumpkinSkytalk 12:57, 27 December 2011 (UTC)reply
Active air units - this subsection doesn't mention Parrish
Cut this and the combat record, merging to the main tuskegee airmen article, leaving only the summary that was already there.
PumpkinSkytalk 13:34, 27 December 2011 (UTC)reply
Tuskegee experiment results
"The "Tuskegee Experiment" was a tremendous success, in which Parrish played a significant role,[7] and proved that blacks could perform well in both leadership and combat roles. Parrish felt people should be judged by their capability, not their color.[7] He would return from Washington DC depressed because of the massive resistance to the Tuskegee program." - is this contradictory? It was a "tremendous" success?
Reworded to History views the results of the "Tuskegee Airmen Experiment" as a tremendous success, in which Parrish played a significant role,[7] and proved that blacks could perform well in both leadership and combat roles.[14] Parrish felt people should be judged by their capability, not their color.[7] During its development Parrish would often return from Washington DC depressed because of the massive resistance to the Tuskegee program. .. better and less ambiguous? — Ched :
? 14:53, 27 December 2011 (UTC)reply
*Lede needs to summarize Parrish's specific contributions
*(see comments above)
*IMO, needs to specify he is white, as there are quotes available that refer to this: (e.g. from the book linked below: "Col Parrish was one of the few white men at that time who dared to express the conviction that Blacks shoud be accepted and treated as first class citizens." (needs to go in body of the article also)
That's an ASP error from the server, IOW the server hosting the webpage has a problem. Hopefully it'll be back up soon.
PumpkinSkytalk 02:05, 25 December 2011 (UTC)reply
Seems to pull up with no problems for me on my end. At least at the moment. — Ched :
? 20:15, 29 December 2011 (UTC)reply
*Talks a lot about the
Tuskegee Airmen, most of which is in that article, but almost nothing about what Parrish did. His name is mentioned once in this section, the largest in the article, until the much smaller subsection "Initial problems" at the section's end. Much use of passive voice, so the reader never knows who implemented what.
B. Remains focused:
*(see problems noted above)
*Talks about "Tuskegee experiment", the Tuskegee airmen, racial segregation etc., and has too little about what Parrish did specifically. It could contain more about his view, statements he made, decisions he made, actions he took, and specific problems he encountered.
*The "Initial problems" is GOOD because it does focus on Parrish.
Great links, thank you, I think between this, previous links, and other links listed by others that perhaps the article could undergo even more expansion. Do you think that will need to be done prior to moving to GA? — Ched :
? 19:55, 29 December 2011 (UTC)reply
"Prior to being assigned to Tuskegee, he had no particular involvement nor concern with black Americans." - Yet the next sentences give example of how he was interested in black Americans before Tuskegee.
MathewTownsend (
talk) 16:18, 29 December 2011 (UTC)reply
reworded to "Prior to being assigned to Tuskegee, he had not been actively involved with any of the black Americans' causes. Parrish had as a youth however, hiked three miles to see where a black man had been lynched." I got the impression from the article used for this that while he was not active in any particular movement regarding blacks, he was however aware of the issues at the time. Hopefully this states that line of thinking a bit better. — Ched :
? 19:55, 29 December 2011 (UTC)reply
Yes, I agree with your rewording. Also, he sacrificed a combat career to remain at Tuskegee and thus to some degree his career, as combat experience is require to climb high. I have been looking at the sources and wishing that more could be added to the article about him personally. Somewhere I came across some personal info, that he was interested in the arts, etc., but I can't find it now.
MathewTownsend (
talk) 20:02, 29 December 2011 (UTC)reply
I think the article is immensely improved and ready to pass. Good work!
THANKS! Your review was thorough, helpful, and fair.
PumpkinSkytalk 00:03, 30 December 2011 (UTC)reply
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The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that the most prestigious award of the association of World War II's black US airmen, the
Tuskegee Airmen, is named for Noel F. Parrish, their white commanding officer?
This article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following
WikiProjects:
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to
join the project and
contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the
documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject United States, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the
United States of America on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions.
This article is part of WikiProject Alabama, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to
Alabama on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit this article, or visit the
project page to join the project and/or contribute to the
discussion.AlabamaWikipedia:WikiProject AlabamaTemplate:WikiProject AlabamaAlabama articles
This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a
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I think we need to consider breaking the "Tuskegee Experiment" section into several sub-sections. Done
In the Tuskegee Experiment section:
In 1936, the first black graduate there in forty-seven years after having been “silenced” there for four years.[2][16] - I think this needs some explanation and clarification. (removed)
The Tuskegee Airmen compiled the following combat record: – 261 aircraft destroyed – 148 aircraft damaged – 15,533 sorties – 1,578 missions – 66 KIA – 95 Distinguished Flying Crosses awarded – 450 Pilots sent overseas. Their operational aircraft were, in succession: P-40 Warhawk, P-39 Airacobra, P-47 Thunderbolt, and P-51 Mustang fighter aircraft.[14] Maybe put this into a table list?
out of time now, but will revisit soon. — Ched :
? 08:01, 21 June 2011 (UTC)reply
will return, won't be front page for a day or two yet. — Ched :
? 07:54, 23 June 2011 (UTC)reply
"The highest recognized presentation during a 2001 National History Day competition concluded that the Tuskegee Airmen experiment was instrumental in laying the foundation for the civil rights movement in the 1960s and became a large factor in President Harry S Truman's decision to desegregate the military in 1948." This is in the lede and doesn't mention Parish. Also, apparently it's not in the article.
the lede should clearly state what Parrish's contributions were, what he is notable for.
In revisiting this I think you are right in the sense that it's a bit too much of a tangent to be included in the lede. As such, I pulled that part out and replaced it with how he got started at Tuskegee and what positions he progressed to. Does that help? — Ched :
? 12:49, 27 December 2011 (UTC)reply
Tuskegee Experiment - as heading - don't most people think of the
Tuskegee syphilis experiment when
Tuskegee Experiment is mentioned? (that's where the redirect goes.) I realize the source refers to "the so-called "Tuskegee Experiment,"
[1] but I think the article has to clarify this if it's going to use the term. At least put it in quotes.
fixed by adding "airmen"; noting various terms are used IRL but this should clarify it.
PumpkinSkytalk 21:41, 24 December 2011 (UTC)reply
Formation of the Tuskegee Experiment
Most of this section doesn't mention Parrish but is general information about the formation of the "Tuskegee Experiment".
Just says, "As Director of Training and later Tuskegee Field commander, Parrish played a key role in the program's success." - doesn't explain his "key role" until way down in the "Initial problems" subsection.
Note that the program started well before he got there, he became dir of training in Dec 1941 and wasn't commander til Dec 1942; most of what what happened was before that. So I'm not sure what to do here while I think it important to keep this info in.
PumpkinSkytalk 12:57, 27 December 2011 (UTC)reply
Active air units - this subsection doesn't mention Parrish
Cut this and the combat record, merging to the main tuskegee airmen article, leaving only the summary that was already there.
PumpkinSkytalk 13:34, 27 December 2011 (UTC)reply
Tuskegee experiment results
"The "Tuskegee Experiment" was a tremendous success, in which Parrish played a significant role,[7] and proved that blacks could perform well in both leadership and combat roles. Parrish felt people should be judged by their capability, not their color.[7] He would return from Washington DC depressed because of the massive resistance to the Tuskegee program." - is this contradictory? It was a "tremendous" success?
Reworded to History views the results of the "Tuskegee Airmen Experiment" as a tremendous success, in which Parrish played a significant role,[7] and proved that blacks could perform well in both leadership and combat roles.[14] Parrish felt people should be judged by their capability, not their color.[7] During its development Parrish would often return from Washington DC depressed because of the massive resistance to the Tuskegee program. .. better and less ambiguous? — Ched :
? 14:53, 27 December 2011 (UTC)reply
*Lede needs to summarize Parrish's specific contributions
*(see comments above)
*IMO, needs to specify he is white, as there are quotes available that refer to this: (e.g. from the book linked below: "Col Parrish was one of the few white men at that time who dared to express the conviction that Blacks shoud be accepted and treated as first class citizens." (needs to go in body of the article also)
That's an ASP error from the server, IOW the server hosting the webpage has a problem. Hopefully it'll be back up soon.
PumpkinSkytalk 02:05, 25 December 2011 (UTC)reply
Seems to pull up with no problems for me on my end. At least at the moment. — Ched :
? 20:15, 29 December 2011 (UTC)reply
*Talks a lot about the
Tuskegee Airmen, most of which is in that article, but almost nothing about what Parrish did. His name is mentioned once in this section, the largest in the article, until the much smaller subsection "Initial problems" at the section's end. Much use of passive voice, so the reader never knows who implemented what.
B. Remains focused:
*(see problems noted above)
*Talks about "Tuskegee experiment", the Tuskegee airmen, racial segregation etc., and has too little about what Parrish did specifically. It could contain more about his view, statements he made, decisions he made, actions he took, and specific problems he encountered.
*The "Initial problems" is GOOD because it does focus on Parrish.
Great links, thank you, I think between this, previous links, and other links listed by others that perhaps the article could undergo even more expansion. Do you think that will need to be done prior to moving to GA? — Ched :
? 19:55, 29 December 2011 (UTC)reply
"Prior to being assigned to Tuskegee, he had no particular involvement nor concern with black Americans." - Yet the next sentences give example of how he was interested in black Americans before Tuskegee.
MathewTownsend (
talk) 16:18, 29 December 2011 (UTC)reply
reworded to "Prior to being assigned to Tuskegee, he had not been actively involved with any of the black Americans' causes. Parrish had as a youth however, hiked three miles to see where a black man had been lynched." I got the impression from the article used for this that while he was not active in any particular movement regarding blacks, he was however aware of the issues at the time. Hopefully this states that line of thinking a bit better. — Ched :
? 19:55, 29 December 2011 (UTC)reply
Yes, I agree with your rewording. Also, he sacrificed a combat career to remain at Tuskegee and thus to some degree his career, as combat experience is require to climb high. I have been looking at the sources and wishing that more could be added to the article about him personally. Somewhere I came across some personal info, that he was interested in the arts, etc., but I can't find it now.
MathewTownsend (
talk) 20:02, 29 December 2011 (UTC)reply
I think the article is immensely improved and ready to pass. Good work!
THANKS! Your review was thorough, helpful, and fair.
PumpkinSkytalk 00:03, 30 December 2011 (UTC)reply
External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on
Noel F. Parrish. Please take a moment to review
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