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(10/22/03) hello. i've made some changes to the chomsky article. mostly i rewrote the section on linguistics -- clarified chomsky's ideas and addressed the primary criticisms on the part of other linguists. i also softened the language a bit in the psychology section, and made a small change at the end of the section on Faurisson that imo should try to make it more balanced (though i won't be surprised if it generates controversy :). benwing
(16/09/04) Hi, i made some additions about other alternatives to Chomskyan linguistics, specifically mentioning Lakoff and Johndon and discursive psychology etc. Anyone who disagrees feel free to tamper!
BScotland
I think such (and other) alternatives deserve mention, but further information about them should be provided on their own articles. Also, the section seems misplaced considering the current heading levels. A paragraph somewhere in Contributions to Linguistics looks like a better alternative to me. -- Glimz 00:54, Sep 16, 2004 (UTC)
What does everyone else think? BScotland
So are we agreed that the subject heading should be changed and that this should become a paragraph? The other alternative is simply to have two entries, one for Chomsky's linguistics and one for his political views. However I do think it's important to note that many linguists (in fact, most) are NOT Chomskyans, and at least have links to alternative 'paradigms', regardless of whether we decide these are the ones that should be highlighted or not. BScotland
Ok, it's now just a paragraph (with a heading) and no longer a section. Also I've removed the 'weasel words' of the first sentence and tidied it up a bit. Whether these are the 'opposing views' that ought to be highlighted is of course a moot point. The problems with Chomsky's theories is that they are linguistic theories, but also theories of psychology and philosophy. So they can be attacked on many grounds. I felt it ought to be made clear that there are alternative philosophical paradigms to the ones Chomskyans normally take for granted. BScotland
I just want to say that, after all the charge and counter-charge I've just finished reading above, that this is a great article. I knew little of Chomsky before reading it: just the inevitabe stuff that I guess any psychology major picks up along the way, plus a vague awareness that he is a prominent advocate of some unpopular leftish causes. Having read the article, I know more than I did before - which is the whole point of this place after all - and am not left with any nagging suspicion that the substantial stuff (his influence in linguistics and psychology)is unreliable. OK, the anti-semite question stuff goes on at too great a length and shows the scars of too many edit wars, but not greatly so. It's a damn good article, and a credit to its many authors. Tannin
Chomsky "grew up...in the Jewish-Zionist cultural tradition" (Peck, p. 11). His father was one of the foremost scholars of the Hebrew language and taught at a religious school. Chomsky has also had a long fascination with and involvement in left-wing Zionist politics. As he described:
He is extremely critical of the policies of Israel towards the Palestinians and ethnic minority Jewish populations within Israel. Among many articles and books, his book The Fateful Triangle is considered one of the premier texts among those who oppose Israeli treatment of Palestinians and American support for Israel. He has also condemned Israel's role in "guiding state terrorism" for selling weapons to Latin American countries that he characterizes as U.S. puppet states, e.g. Guatemala in the 1970s. (What Uncle Sam Really Wants, Chapter 2.4) In addition, he has repeatedly and vehemently condemned the United States for its military and diplomatic support for Israel, and sectors of the American Jewish community (e.g. Anti-Defamation League) for their role in obtaining this support.
Partially because of these criticisms, Chomsky has been accused of being anti-semitic many times. The most outspoken of his critics include journalist David Horowitz, who has toured college campuses distributing anti-Chomsky pamphlets, attorney/professor Alan Dershowitz, with whom Chomsky has engaged in many verbal battles through the media, and sociology professor emeritus Werner Cohn, who has written an entire book on the subject, Partners in Hate. One of the most common charges is that while in theory there may be a difference between the concept of anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism, in practice anti-Zionism is a manifestation of anti-Semitism. Under this theory, Chomsky's opposition to a Jewish state (or all anarchists' opposition) is thus indicative of anti-Semitism.
Chomsky, a Jew, rejects charges of anti-Semitism and claims that he has always spoken out against bigotry, including anti-Semitism. As he writes in "Thought Control: The Case of the Middle East" [Pirates and Emperors, Old and New, pg. 29]:
My own views, for example, are regularly condemned as "militant anti-Zionism" by people who are well aware of those views, repeatedly and clearly expressed: that Israel within its internationally recognized border should be accorded the rights of any state in the international system, no more, no less, and that in every state, including Israel, discriminatory structures that in law and in practice assign a special status to one category of citizens (Jews, Whites, Christians, etc.), granting them rights denied to others, should be dismantled.
In 1979, Robert Faurisson, a French professor, wrote a book claiming that the Nazis did not have gas chambers, did not attempt a genocide of Jews (or any other groups), and that the "myth" of the gas chambers had been put forth by Zionist swindlers for the benefit of the state of Israel and to the detriment of Germans and Palestinians. (Hitchens, 1985)
Shortly after, Chomsky signed a petition condemning censorship of Faurisson's works in France. The petition claimed that Faurisson's works were based on "extensive independent historical research." (On Faurisson and Chomsky) Following a controversy regarding this petition, Chomsky wrote an essay entitled Some Elementary Comments on The Rights of Freedom of Expression, which dealt mainly with the freedom to conduct and publish unpopular research, but also stated that he had not found evidence of anti-Semitism in the parts of Faurisson's work that he had reviewed. Chomsky granted permission for this essay to be used for any purpose; it was used as the preface for a book by Faurisson.
Chomsky's writings sparked a great furore. Many people held that Faurisson's statements were the archetype of anti-Semitism, and that the logical conclusion of Chomsky's statement would be that Naziism was not anti-semitic. For example, Deborah Lipstadt wrote in Dimensions, the journal of the ADL:
Chomsky later wrote (His Right to Say It): "Faurisson's conclusions are diametrically opposed to views I hold and have frequently expressed in print (for example, in my book Peace in the Middle East?, where I describe the holocaust as "the most fantastic outburst of collective insanity in human history"). But it is elementary that freedom of expression (including academic freedom) is not to be restricted to views of which one approves, and that it is precisely in the case of views that are almost universally despised and condemned that this right must be most vigorously defended."
Can someone please explain to me the logic of the piece in brackets (On Faurisson and Chomsky) from the quoted paragraph from the article (which is the second paragraph under the heading
Does it mean that Faurisson's work is based on historical research by Faurisson and Chomsky? It would be kind of unlogical to call it "extensive independent" then. Thanks, snoyes 00:53 Apr 1, 2003 (UTC)
tothebarricades.tk made the following change, commenting that "Bakunin was not a socialist":
I reverted the change because the second part of the sentence goes on to talk about the socialization of the means of production. The next sentence continues "He refers to this as real socialism." It is true that Bakunin's doctrine was anarchist, but it does not mean that he didn't have socialist views. Chomsky frequently substitutes the term libertarian socialism for anarchism. The whole paragraph needs to be reworked (or atleast the whole sentence) if anarchism is to be substituted here.
-- Evan 06:21, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)
From a newly-added paragraph:
He talks alot about the "threat of a good example" in Uncle Sam ( [1]). But even in that very chapter he never says the good example is "socialism", but rather "independence" or an "independent path". Where has he said that he thinks "socialism" is a "more effective system"? DanKeshet 21:42 27 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Overall, I think we're not that far apart and you're adding good new material about Chomsky's thoughts on the more abstract subjects. However, I still don't understand your reasoning behind some of it and I think some of it needs citations.
1) When specifically has Chomsky called himself a Marxist? Not that it's totally implausible, but this needs a citation. (Leaving this part pending an answer.)
2) Why do you say Latin American and South America? Better would be 'Latin America' or 'South and Central America' (Restoring this part pending an answer.)
3) Saying "the United States' capitalist influence" rather than "the United States' influence" is wrong. Did Chomsky speak out about Soviet imperialism because of the Soviet Union's "capitalist" influence on Afghanistan? (And yes, Chomsky has spoken out against the Soviet influence, although it has been muted compared to his discussion of the US, for the reasons discussed in the article.) (restoring pending answer)
4) Why did you replace the single link to libertarian socialism (Wikipedia's page on Chomsky's style of anarchism) to seperate links to the "disambiguating" page anarchism and the more specific page libertarian socialism? (restoring pending answer.)
5) You consistently attach motives to Chomsky's actions that he himself does not attach, and which seem to be counterfactual. Does Chomsky oppose US meddling in Iran (as described in Uncle Sam) because the Islamic Revolution was "socialist"?! Did Chomsky really oppose Bolshevism because it would disparage socialism, and not because it was authoritarian and brutal? Why not just describe Chomsky's writings, and let others deduce the motives? Or describe the motives which Chomsky himself gives? I am reverting and deleting many instances of this.
I do hope you stick around, and keep working on the page, though, because you are adding good content.
DanKeshet 15:58, 30 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I expanded the second paragraph of the Faurisson section to give more context. I also changed the quotation from "extensive independent historical research" to "extensive historical research" which I think is more correct. Both of Chomsky's arch-critics Cohn and Dershowitz give it like that. Actually the critics focused more on the word "findings", so I've quoted that too. There is one thing I'm not completely sure about: whether the court case against Faurisson came later (as I put it) or earlier. If someone knows it was earlier, please correct it. -- zero 06:25, 10 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Forget his politics, what about his science? I understand that in thepast decade there have been many findings in neurophysiology which can be interpreted as lending support to Chomsky's theories about how human grammar. This topic certainly is worth getting into. RK 01:10, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)
In the expanded section on Chomsky and socialism, 142.158..., you included some direct quotes in quote marks. What are you quoting? DanKeshet
This has a direct quote in it. What is it quoting? DanKeshet
The full quote is:
American dissidents have to face the fact that they are living in a state with enormous power, used for murderous and destructive ends. Honest people will have to face the fact that they are morally responsible for the predictable human consequences of their acts. One of these acts is accurate criticism, accurate critical analysis of authoritarian state socialism in North Vietnam or in Cuba or in other countries that the United States is trying to subvert. The consequences of accurate critical anal ysis will be to buttress these efforts, thus contributing to suffering and oppression.
It's quoted from an interview in the book "Destructive Generation," which is writen by a Chomsky critic.
I'm moving the Faurisson section to a special article on the Faurisson Affair. I'm justifying the decision on the grounds that this was the criterion adopted with the Dershowitz-Finkelstein Affair.
I moved the following text to here because it is broken analysis:
- - - - - - -
Chomsky's views on terrorism are not unifaceted. On page 76 of his book 9-11, Noam Chomsky defines terrorism:
Wanton killing of innocent civilians is terrorism, not a war against terrorism.
Chomsky clearly distinguishes between the targeting of civilians and the targeting of military personnel or installations. Thereby placing the definition of terrorism on an objective basis. At other times, Chomsky defines terrorism as being relative:
It is the weapon of those who are against 'us' whoever 'us' happens to be. And if you can find a historical exception to that, I'd be interested in seeing it.
In addition, Noam Chomsky identifies terrorism with low intensity warfare.
The U.S. is officially committed to what is called “low–intensity warfare.” That’s the official doctrine. If you read the definition of low–intensity conflict in army manuals and compare it with official definitions of “terrorism” in army manuals, or the U.S. Code, you find they’re almost the same. Terrorism is the use of coercive means aimed at civilian populations in an effort to achieve political, religious, or other aims. That’s what the World Trade Center bombing was, a particularly horrifying terrorist crime.
- - - - - - -
The problem is that the analysis being presented does not distinguish between what Chomsky thinks terrorism is and what he says other people mean by the word. In the first quotation he is giving an opinion of his own (but it is not a definition since it doesn't say that nothing else could be terrorism also). In the second quotation he is commenting on what he sees as the establishment usage of the word "terrorism". He is not saying he agrees with it and in fact it is obvious that he does not. In the third quotation he is again emphasising the commentary made in the second quotation, and again he does not at all say that he agrees with either of the two usages of the word "terrorism" that he describes. In other words, there is nothing at all contradictory between these three quotations. I find them entirely consistent and entirely Chomskyesque. -- Zero 07:23, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)
TDC, I think the addition of the quote regarding Chomsky's support of terrorism requires some more information:
Also note that Chomsky doesn't say that there should be exceptions specifically for Marxist insurgencies in terms of the use of terror tactics — this is your interpretation of what he said and it shouldn't be stated as a fact on the page. What Chomsky seems to be saying, if the quote is genuine, is that in general, terror can sometimes be justified, depending on whether it has good or bad consequences on balance. This is very different from your summary of Chomsky's views on this matter. I have reverted the edit until a compromise can be reached. Cadr
I saw 2 smears in the article. There was a line saying that Chomsky has endorsed terrorism by communist movements. I don't think it is legitimate to put such a line in the criticism section, because it implies that Chomsky did in fact 'endorse terrorism by communist movements', and some people are critical of him doing this. A better try would have been to say that some people accuse Chomsky of 'endorsing terrorism by communist movements', but without any evidence for this it'd sound more critical of the people who make these accusations anyway, so I deleted this line. Second, there's criticism that the claims that USA is responsible for the deaths of thousands of innocent civilians in Sudan aren't based, but the corrrect link to the wikipedia article claiming the exact same thing was missing. For now, I just fixed the link to the Al-Shifa plant bombing, and left the criticism as it is. However, the whole incident is more likely to put apologists of USA atrocities in a bad light than anything else, and in fact what Chomsky discussed in his book 9-11 makes this even more troubling, since USA blocked attempts by the UN to inspect the damage in Sudan. Anyway, Chomsky's reply to the questioning of his sources can be found at salon.com -- Nimc 12 Apr 2004
The line "Alan Dershowitz, with whom Chomsky has engaged in many verbal battles through the media," seems to imply that Chomsky was on tv together with Dershowitz many times, assuming that 'verbal battle through the media' means tv. This is probably wrong, or to the very least the word 'many' is wrong, though I suspect that no such 'verbal battles' occured at all (Chomsky is not exactly a welcomed guest on tv shows.) All I know of is a university talk by Chomsky in which Dershowitz claims he debated him, and an exchange of letters in the Boston Globe (i.e. not verbal) which Dershowitz wouldn't be delighted to be reminded of. This line was added to wikipedia on 4 Aug 2002, but integrated from another entry, so I guess it's hard to know who wrote it? If anyone has evidence for it, I'd be interested to see it.
Also, the title 'About Chomsky and Chomsky archives' doesn't contain any archives. And, the link for Werner Cohn's sci-fi book appears twice, both there and as [1] in criticism - I'd assume that one link should be more than enough for this particular book... -- Nimc 00:24, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)
There are too many criticisms. Is this page about Chomsky or criticisms of Chomsky? Just say what he believes and let people decide for themselves. -- Mike W. Orlando, Fl.
There are several places in the article where I'm not sure if the writer maybe just wrote what he felt like, without much relation to reality:
1) "particularly popular among many groups of university students in the United States and Canada" - What's special about Canada, in comparison to other countries? Maybe a Canadian wrote that? Maybe it's correct, I don't know.
2) "even endorsed candidates for office" - probably the word "endorsed" is a little too strong. For example, in the ZNet forum replies that I added in the external links, he said that "endorsing Kerry" is an invention of headline writers, when answering a question about voting against Bush and tactical voting.
3) The "pre-determined thesis" criticism is too vague, who are these critics that remain unmentioned throughout the paragraph? Could someone mention some reasonable authors who don't just make accusations without evidence, but actually reviewed a book seriously and made claims such as "uses selective quotes and out-of-context facts" and the rest? So we could make this paragraph less mystical...
4) The leftist criticism (which I wrote!) is also not too great. The part about being criticized for not being a good enough anarchist was written in the 'Political views' part of the article, so I moved it here - but I wonder if maybe this is just some internet forums type of criticism that is not even worth mentioning. The anti-Marxist part is probably too strong - it's true that Chomsky is critical of Marxism, he also said something like "any theory named after a single person is probably pathological" - but to say that people accuse him of anti-Marxism is probably too strong.
5) The "lacking credentials" criticism sounds fine, but has anyone actually used such criticism? It sounds like an invention, i.e. someone just woke up one morning and decided it'd be cool to write it here. I tried to look and couldn't find anyone who said anything similar to this - could someone show me an example?
6) "The entire Cambodia issue was quite controversial for Chomsky's reputation, with many of his supporters arguing that Chomsky had in fact been wrong in his initial assessments of the Cambodian situation, a charge which Chomsky denies. (See Ear, 1995.)" - I looked briefly at that Ear link, and didn't see there any "Chomsky supporter" who argued that Chomsky was wrong, let alone "many supporters". Could anyone name a few such "Chomsky supporters" please? Nimc 18:54, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)
7) The "About Chomsky" Lipstadt link is not about Chomsky. In the one paragraph there that discusses Chomsky, she is misleading. But anyway, the relevant point of view from that article is already quoted in Faurisson Affair. Nimc 19:54, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC) Thanks for fixing this. Nimc 23:57, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)
8) "Chomsky is also often criticized as being a conspiracy theorist" - This paragraph sounds stupid to me. May I see evidence? Is there someone who wrote this while actually referring to something that Chomsky said, i.e. not just made a wild charge without attributing it to anything. Here is a recent [5] example, the technique here is to use the phrase "planet Chomsky" with no other details. If this criticism is only made by people who don't back it up with anything, I think we can remove it. Also note the word "often" in the quotation. Nimc 23:57, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)
9) "Accusations of anti-semitism" - I claim that the person who originally wrote this was bluffing. May I see evidence where either Dershowitz or Horowitz "accuse" Chomsky of being an anti-Semite? As for Werner Cohn, he accuses Chomsky of being a neo-Nazi, so I guess anti-Semite is included there. Nimc 23:57, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Also, the Sudan Al-Shifa bombing criticism looks more like a criticism of Bill Clinton (and Richard Clarke?) than anything else... -- Nimc 23:55, 31 May 2004 (UTC)
For J.J.:
you added the quote: "The deaths in Cambodia were not the result of systematic slaughter and starvation organized by the state but rather attributable in large measure to peasant revenge, undisciplined military units out of government control, starvation and disease that are direct consequences of the US war, or other such factors."
A quick search discovers that the quotation marks around the quote you added are a lie.
Here's the full paragraph: "If 2-2.5 million people, about 1/3 of the population have been systematically slaughtered by a band of murderous thugs who have taken over the government, then McGovern is willing to consider international military intervention. We presume that he would not have made this proposal if the figure of those killed were, say, less by a factory of 100--that is 25 000 people--though that would be bad enough. Nor would he have been likely to propose this extreme measure if the deaths in Cambodia were not the result of systematic slaughter and starvation organized by the state, but rather attributable in large measure to peasant revenge, undisciplined military units out of government control, starvation, and disease that are direct consequences of the US war, or other such factors. Nor has McGovern, or anyone else, called for military intervention to cut short the apparent massacre of something like one sixth of the population of East Timor in the course of the Indonesian invasion."
It is quite obvious that you don't have the book from which you're quoting, and you believed some right wing source with this quote to be truthful. Nimc 19:54, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Please also reply to (3) above under ==Inaccuracies?==, as I now noticed that you wrote the paragraph referred to there. Nimc 22:07, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)
For 213.7.253.5:
Again, the standard here is that you don't make the criticism by youself. You wrote "Critics often alledge..." - if there are serious people or groups who alledge something, then quote them. Though with regard to Cambodia, I advise you to just read the original article [6] etc, as some of the other people (particularly on the internet) who comment on this issue appear to be mentally instable. The most extreme example seems to be this [7] one.
I'll also remove the paragraphes that correspond to (3) and (4) in ==Inaccuracies?== because they don't meet this standard. I can add some citations for (4), but I regret that I wrote it anyway. Other paragraphes should also be either improved or removed, imho (9) should be modified and (8) should be removed because it's probably not based on anything serious, but maybe I'm wrong. Nimc 08:00, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)
For Nimc: I didn't make criticism myself at all! I quoted Chomsky. Furthermore, I did post a link to "serious people or groups" which was promptly deleted by the self-appointed censors. It is bad netiquette, as the FAQ for Wikipedia advises to delete and revert as little as possible. Yet, every addendum, including relevant quotes are immediately censored. Chomsky's denial of Khmer Rouge atrocities and his support for China are clearly pertinent to "Criticism". Chomsky stands by his words to this day, so why censor them?
Furthermore the site linked to which has an extensive review (with full bibliography) of the debate over Cambodia is a site about Cambodia, clearly relevant to the Cambodian genocide, no.
To Nimc: You uphold an arbitrary self-created burden of proof only in this case. No where else is publishing in a "serious" journal necessary for inclusion. That is totally false. In all other articles, "allegations" are regularly posted. The author of that site is not anonymous and has full references. All we are saying by including it is that "some people says this about Chomsky". IT is pure hypocrisy (and maybe willful) that you demand higher standards for critical sources of Chomksky than in any other case.
You say: "You are naive if you think that the web site you added is truthful." But nothing on Wikipedia purports to be "truthful". That is a misunderstanding. It is at minimum one view of Chomsky. In a npov way, we must tell people what the main views of Chomsky are. This is just one of them. You can add others but we should not censor criticisms of Chomsky.
As for the quotes from Chomsky *himself*, they are not criticism but are evidence of his views at the time. This is directly relevant to the controversy. Are you claiming that Chomsky's own words are not "serious" (a criteria you have apparently invented yourself)????
You are attempting wholesale censorship of both 1) the facts (Chomsky's quotes) and 2)criticisms of Chomsky.
Socrates999,
You're vandalizing wikipedia, don't you have any respect for private property?
You've been constantly ignoring our requests to edit the talk page instead of the main article - each time someone has to revert your edits in the main article it adds another 32k of space to the wikipedia history. Except for this last creative edit of yours, in which you somehow managed to duplicate the entire article twice resulting in a double article, thus adding 64k.
You should read the help pages for newcomers before you start your adventures here. From there you would have learned that the correct way to revert an article is to click on the desired version in the history, then click 'edit', then click 'save'. Please use this simple method instead of your (imperfect...) copy and paste techniques.
I've explained to you in detail why you should describe public criticism and not make the criticism by yourself in wikipedia. Please don't edit the main page with criticism that you're making by yourself.
Basically ANY criticism made of Chomksy is DELETED because you can always claim it is "my" criticism, despite a plethora of critics who say the same thing, and who I linked to and referenced. Even Chomsky's own quotes are deleted as "my" opinion???
It's probably fruitless, but I'll try one last example in order to try to clarify: suppose I'd like to add the criticism in the Laura Bush article that 'some critics' think that she murdered her boyfriend, and that she should be tried for murder and perhaps executed if found guilty. And suppose I'll back up this criticism using a Bruce Sharp style external link such as this [8] one. Do you see any problem with this?
Also, your "Moss-New York Times" quote is ridiculous.
It's referring to a NYT correspondent by the name of Moss who fabricated his sources with regard to "slaughter", read the paragraph. Chomsky and Herman didn't say that there's no "slaughter", they explicitly wrote in the last paragraph that they don't "pretend to know where the truth lies". Also, your "more than 1.7 million" number is higher than the highest estimates - it appears that from your point of view, the more dead Cambodians, the better - which is a really sick behavior. I strongly suggest that you read some articles about Cambodia (here's a recent
[9] one) in order to get an impression of what really happened there, and stop playing with the number of deaths in such a sloppy manner as if this is some kind of a game. Also, you keep confusing 1967 with 1977 in your edits.
By the way, are you a relative of Ann Coulter or something? This business of whining about censorship sounds awfully similar to this [10] National Review incident. Nimc 18:20, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Here's the paragraph from which he decided to quote the last sentence as being one of Chomsky's 'most infamous' statements:
In the New York Times Magazine, May 1, 1977, Robert Moss (editor of a dubious offshoot of Britain's Economist called "Foreign Report" which specializes in sensational rumors from the world's intelligence agencies) asserts that "Cambodia's pursuit of total revolution has resulted, by the official admission of its Head of State, Khieu Samphan, in the slaughter of a million people." Moss informs us that the source of this statement is Barron and Paul, who claim that in an interview with the Italian weekly Famiglia Cristiana Khieu Samphan stated that more than a million died during the war, and that the population had been 7 million before the war and is now 5 million. Even if one places some credence in the reported interview nowhere in it does Khieu Samphan suggest that the million postwar deaths were a result of official policies (as opposed to the lag effects of a war that left large numbers ill, injured, and on the verge of starvation). The "slaughter" by the Khmer Rouge is a Moss-New York Times creation.
Here's the paragraph in the end of the article:
We do not pretend to know where the truth lies amidst these sharply conflicting assessments; rather, we again want to emphasize some crucial points. What filters through to the American public is a seriously distorted version of the evidence available, emphasizing alleged Khmer Rouge atrocities and downplaying or ignoring the crucial U.S. role, direct and indirect, in the torment that Cambodia has suffered. Evidence that focuses on the American role, like the Hildebrand and Porter volume, is ignored, not on the basis of truthfulness or scholarship but because the message is unpalatable.
Perhaps someone else would like to try to explain to him why he shouldn't make criticisms by himself?
I tried to quote from the NPOV article and give him several examples, but I'm giving up for now. Also, he claims that I'm vandalizing wikipedia by reverting his edits on the main article, so I guess it'd be better if others would revert his edits. This individual is a living proof why people should describe public debates and not insert their own criticism into wikipedia articles.
Nimc 10:41, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
In a recent edit, Chomsky's critics have been classified by left-wing/right-wing. I agree that under some political spectra in the US, Dershowitz is considered a left-winger, but I don't think it makes sense in this context for two reasons: 1) under almost any accepted political spectrum, Dershowitz is far to the right of Chomsky. In the context of an article on Chomsky, Dershowitz could just as easily be called a right-winger. 2) even on the conventional political spectrum of the US, the disagreements between Chomsky and Dershowitz revolve around Israel and Palestine, an issue that doesn't appear along a political spectrum in the US. Therefore, I would like to remove these labels from Dershowitz and Horowitz (an interesting left/right story himself).
That quote could be highly misconstrued by someone not familiar with Chomsky's ideas or writing style.
Mention this in the main article.
"Yesterday and today, my friends and I visited Tanh Hoa province. There we were able to see at first hand the constructive work of the social revolution of the Vietnamese people. We saw luxurious fields and lovely countryside. We saw brave men and women who know how to defend their country from brutal aggression, but also to work with pride and with dignity to build a society of material prosperity, social justice, and cultural progress. I would like to express the great joy that we feel in your accomplishments.
"We also saw the ruins of dwellings and hospitals, villages mutilated by savage bombardments, craters disfiguring the peaceful countryside. In the midst of the creative achievements of the Vietnamese people, we came face to face with the savagery of a technological monster controlled by a social class, the rulers of the American empire, that has no place in the 20th century, that has only the capacity to repress and murder and destroy.
"We also saw the (Ham Ranh) Bridge, standing proud and defiant, and carved on the bills above we read the words, 'determined to win.' The people of Vietnam will win, they must win, because your cause is the cause of humanity as it moves forward toward liberty and justice, toward the socialist society in which free, creative men control their own destiny.
"This is my first visit to Vietnam. Nevertheless, since the moment when we arrived at the airport at Hanoi, I've had a remarkable and very satisfying feeling of being entirely at home. It is as if we are renewing old friendships rather than meeting new friends. It is as if we are returning to places that have a deep and personal meaning.
"In part, this is because of the warmth and the kindness with which we have been received, wherever we have gone. In part, it is because for many years we have wished all our strength and will to stand beside you in your struggle. We are deeply grateful to you that you permit us to be part of your brave and historical struggle. We hope that there will continue to be strong bonds of comradeship between the people of Vietnam and the many Americans who wish you success and who detest with all of their being the hateful activities of the American government.
"Those bonds of friendship are woven of many strands. From our point of view there is first of all the deep sympathy that we felt for the suffering of the Vietnamese people, which persists and increases in the southern part of your country, where the American aggression continues in full force.
"There is, furthermore, a feeling of regret and shame that we must feel because we have not been able to stop the American war machine. More important still is our admiration for the people of Vietnam who have been able to defend themselves against the ferocious attack, and at the same time take great strides forward toward the socialist society.
"But, above all, I think, is the feeling of pride. Your heroism reveals the capabilities of the human spirit and human will. Decent people throughout the world see in your struggle a model for themselves. They are in your debt, everlastingly, because you were in the forefront of the struggle to create a world in which the chains of oppression have been broken and replaced by social bonds among free men working in true solidarity and cooperation.
"Your courage and your achievements teach us that we too must be determined to win--not only to win the battle against American aggression in Southeast Asia, but also the battle against exploitation and racism in our own country.
"I believe that in the United States there will be some day a social revolution that will be of great significance to us and to all of mankind, and if this hope is to be proven correct, it will be in large part because the people of Vietnam have shown us the way.
"While in Hanoi I have had the opportunity to read the recent and very important book by Le Duan on the problems and tasks of the Vietnamese revolution. In it, he says that the fundamental interests of the proletariat of the people of all the world consists in at the same time in safeguarding world peace and moving the revolution forward in all countries. This is our common goal. We only hope that we can build upon your historic achievements. Thank you."
- Noam Chomsky, originally delivered on April 13, 1970 in Hanoi while he was visiting North Vietnam with a group of anti-war activists. Broadcast by Radio Hanoi on April 14, and published in the _Asia-Pacific Daily Report_ of the U.S. government's Foreign Broadcast Information Service, April 16, 1970, pages K2-K3.
The text quotes a Dershowitz book; ignoring for a while that he typically writes nonsensical screeed, we can deal with the book itself as a quotable source, not the blog. Either Dershowitz cites a source for it, or we can maybe ask NC's staff to comment. - Ste vertigo 18:09, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)
So basically (assumptions: nobody is lying outright, Chomsky doesn't speak Vietnamese, Radio Hanoi doesn't broadcast in English): Chomsky said something (while in Vietnam) ==> translated by Radio Hanoi ==> translated back by FBIS ==> Paul Hollander's book ==> Collier&Horowitz book It seems to me that it makes no sense to talk about anything else than what Chomsky said initially, and it will be pretty difficult to find out what exactly he said. We can probably dismiss the rest. Christopher Hitchen's article [14] talks about Collier&Horowitz's made up charges btw. pir 23:17, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)
radio Hanoi, or anywhere [while he was in Vietnam]". 2) That transcript has been circulating for 30 years (it is not a recent Horowitz forgery), 3) it's possible he gave informal remarks that were picked up somewhere, but certainly not these ones. DanKeshet 19:07, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Sample question: why did you remove the "criticism of science culture" section in an edit which purported only to be restoring some of the criticisms of Chomsky edited back in by J.J.? Cadr 18:38, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)
BTW, why do you keep editing in the same typos (e.g. "identifed" for "identified" in the intro)? Does it really surprise you that your changes are being reverted when you delete entire sections of an article for dubious reasons, make significant changes without explanation (e.g. qualifying left-wing with "smotimes radical", which has been a point of moderate controversy) and add in typos which other people will have to fix? Could we just discuss the changes you want to make here first and come to an agreement. I promise you I'm willing to compromise (e.g. by condensing some sections of the article, or moving them elsewhere). I know it may be hard to believe that we could come to an agreement in the present climate of edits, but let's give it a go. Cadr 18:57, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)
For now, how about we create a Criticism of Noam Chomsky article, and link to it in the criticism section of the main article. People like JJ and S999 could edit that page and improve it, and later on we could either re-integrate it back into the criticism section that the main article already has, or leave it as a separate article. This should stop most of the edit wars for now. How about it? Nimc 18:47, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I think most here would agree the article was fine before Socrates999 started messing with it. He has yet and seems unwilling to fully explain himself. Why can't we just call a vote and get this over with? -- GD 22:08, 31 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I don't know if I like the idea of a whole separate criticism of Chomsky page. There is a precedent for it on some other pages I understand, (Bush has several I believe) but I tend to think doing such a thing tends to "cheapen" wikipedia, making it look like one big internet forum where people make articles just to "counter" existing ones and so forth. Now with all respect, I realize that there are many Chomsky fans involved with this article, as is to be expected. As a result, I'm well aware that you fans may be instinctively skeptical of any criticisms or claims made of Chomsky. At the same time howeverm, from what I gather you seem to want every single sentence of criticism of Chomsky to be followed up by tons of little [1] [2] [3] 's, which in my view (from a mostly stylistic perspective) really makes an article look like it was written by a bunch of petty and partisan people. My main point is, as Chomsky fans you are by definition quite out of tune with what is and isn't mainstream points of Chomsky criticism. Most of what was in the "criticism" chapter were all quite mainstream critiques of Chomsky that thousands of conservative and moderate Democrats commonly use. Yet many of you continually regard these criticisms (ie: the standard critique that Chomsky is needlessly stubborn and biased in his analysis of history, that he omits facts when convienient, etc) as being confusing and strange; you argue they are "weasel words" and generally seem to argue as if they are made up allegations based on nothing. The point is, for wikipedia to work, there must always be a certain willingness to give others "the benefit of the doubt." I am more than willing to give the Chomsky fans who work on this article the benefit of the doubt for the vast majority of this page. I'm not about to demand citations and links after every claim that Chomsky supports this kind of anarchism over this kind of socialism or whatever, and I would hope that you all would in turn be willing to give me and others the benefit of the doubt when we add what we, as critics of Chomsky and readers of conservative pundits, et al, regard to be mainstream criticisms of the man and his beliefs. I hope that is all clear.
Now in the meantime I am going to re-add a couple of links on this page, linking to anti-Chomsky sites. The idea of creating an independent anti-Chomsky entry notwithstanding, there is no reason for this page, in it's current form, to NOT link to at least three pages criticizing Chomsky. user:J.J.
Please, can we have the interwiki links to other languages for the article back. They are last seen in the version from 13:58, 28 Jul 2004, and I see no reason whatever to delete them. Byrial 21:10, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)
This page has been protected for too long, and I am unprotecting it. Please discuss changes, do not engage in revert wars, and try to reach consensus. Furthermore, you might want to note the standards advocated by WikiProject Philosophy, which states that criticism of a thinker should be made with specific citations to critics instead of a vague "some argue that," thus restricting criticism to noteworthy criticism, and preventing original research. Snowspinner 14:05, Aug 12, 2004 (UTC).
This is off-topic for this page, but on-topic for controversial/disputed pages in general, so I hope you don't mind this interjection. I'm looking for a few good veterans of edit wars on frequently controversial pages like this one, who would be willing to look over a design proposal for Wiki branches that I've written up and will probably attempt to prototype in the near future (not likely on wikipedia itself at first, but perhaps on other experimental wikis). The whole thing is long, but I'd be quite happy if you only looked at the much shorter section on "Branches", which is the most important part. I'm particularly interested in hearing whether you think such a branch mechanism (a) would improve Wiki workflow and consensus-building, by allowing alternative approaches to be developed and evaluated side-by-side, or (b) would hinder consensus-building by making it less necessary for the majority to take minority viewpoints into account. But in general, I'm interested in any and all comments, preferably on my talk page. Thanks! - Brynosaurus 09:33, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Shouldn't the section in the Chomsky article that is titled Criticism of Science be titled differently? After all, he is the one defending science from other people's criticisms. Maybe the section ought to be titled "Defense of Science."
To User:192.116.202.36]: What is wrong with the following list of "critical articles" that you deleted without explanation from the Noam Chomsky page? I find the following list of "critical articles" very useful. Are these articles unfair in some way that I could not detect?
--> Begin deleted list of "critical articles" <--
--> End list of deleted "critical articles" <-- --- Rednblu 21:20, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)
<<Dr. Avram Noam Chomsky (born December 7, 1928) is an Institute Professor of linguistics at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and creator of the Chomsky hierarchy, a classification of formal languages. Outside of his linguistic work, Chomsky is also widely known for his radical left-wing political views, in particular his criticism of the foreign policy of United States governments.>>
<<Dr. Avram Noam Chomsky (born December 7, 1928) Has followed a dual career as an academic and as a political and media analyst and polemicist. He is an Institute Professor of linguistics at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology: as a young scholar he put forward the ideas that children have an innate capacity to learn language, and that all languages are based on a universal grammar. He has gone on to develop the Chomsky hierarchy, a system for understanding and improving grammars generally.
Chomsky’s political activities were stimulated by his opposition to the Vietnam war. He has developed a political theory that America, perhaps unconsciously, reacts as a system to suppress and obliterate any "good example" of a politics or economics which appears to function better than America's particular version of democracy and free market capitalism; within the American state, consent is manufactured by propaganda. Criticism of Chomsky’s politics has included allegations that he is an anti-semite, a conspiracy theorist, and/or an apologist for communist despots.>>
<<Dr. Avram Noam Chomsky (born December 7, 1928) is an Institute Professor of linguistics at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and creator of the Chomsky hierarchy, a classification of formal languages. His works in generative linguistics contributed significantly to the decline of Behaviorism, and led to the advancement of the Cognitive sciences. Outside of his linguistic work, Chomsky is also widely known for his radical left-wing political views, in particular his criticism of the foreign policy of United States governments. He is probably one of the most prominent and influential anarchist thinkers.>>
I started doing a 2-para version but I failed, since I couldn't get the defining and important first sentence to exclude any of his activies, hence it flowed together. Nevertheless, it might offer some advantages over the current, shorter version, if someone helps polish it. -- Glimz 02:19, Sep 13, 2004 (UTC)
<<Dr. Avram Noam Chomsky (born December 7, 1928) . . . >>
Choam-skee? Chahm-skee? (note the ironic lack of formal linguistic notation) Tempshill 17:13, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)
In English, Chahm-skee. In the language that the name originally came from, HHHomsky (a strong h, much like the sound that J makes in Spanish). -- Sesel 17:49, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)
These are complete nonsense and don't deserve to be linked. Can anyone make a convincing case for including them? Anyway, here's some of many issues I have with them:
Having a hard time with your idol being criticized? This Wikipedia entry is largely an attempt to dubiously elevate Chomsky to the pinnacle of American itellectuals and I don't think that one critical article in the external links section will undermine the propaganda effort. Amazing how you fly off the handle, considering that there are many more links inserted idealizing Chomsky's bias and status. Doug Sep 30 02:28:28 UTC 2004
Wow, you actually read the articles. You are a brave person, I commend you:) All I did is google his name, seems like he's being attacked and defended with regard to whether he whitewashes who killed the native people of Australia in a book of his. Funny that he should say that other people are Holocaust deniers. Anyway, my understanding of the wikipedia NPOV criteria is that if one significant party has one POV with regard to some issue, and another significant party has another POV with regard to that issue, then both POVs should be included, i.e. the accuracy of their POVs are not relevant, only their significance. You can debate whether this criteria is a good idea, but note that it is similar to the case where, let's say 60% of Americans believe that WMDs have been found in Iraq, so therefore in a sense WMDs have indeed been found in Iraq, because this belief has major consequences. And note that if you think that such articles shouldn't be included, then it's even more true for the Werner Cohn neo-Nazi book. Also worth noting that disinfopedia uses 'fair and accurate' instead of 'npov' as its criteria. In this specific case, it's an external link and not wikipedia content - I personally think that we should reduce the amount of all the external links, but I guess 3 critical articles is fine in the current form - though as I said above, I don't see why all the critical links have to be by right-wingers and not leftists etc. Nimc 03:13, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I didn't want to have to get this labored and specific with the criticisms, but apparently only citing a specific instance of a specific occasion in which Chomsky had done something objectionable was allowed. I honestly believe simply writing a brief summary of mainstream criticisms of him (ie: critics allege he often uses quotes out of context, presents a one-sided view, etc) would have been much more appropriate than me writing paragraphs on which speficic chapters from which books are controversial, or quoting passages from Horowitz or whatever, but apparently this is the only form of criticism of Chomsky on this page that will be permitted by the editing gods. I have played by exactly your rules, so please don't complain that my passage is too long or whatever. I did exactly what I was told, now hopefully what I wrote can stay for longer than five minutes without being edited out.
I also re-added the critical links. I really don't understand this. Look, the point is not that YOU agree with everything presented on the linked articles. Hell, I'm not saying I do. The point is to let the readers of the page decide, and to let the readers of the page realize that websites do in fact exist which are critical of Chomsky. user:J.J.
Listen Nimc, I am getting sick of the way you guard and protect this page solely out of blind allegiance to Chomsky. I realize that your brain has a hard time contemplating the fact that Chomsky could ever be wrong about anything and you instinctively regard every single person who criticizes Chomsky as some sort of fringe moron who just pulls random allegations out of his ass. Let me put this as clearly as I can: You will never allow legitimate criticism of Chomsky to appear on this page because you don't believe legitimate criticism of Chomsky exists. I've been trying to get some balance on this page for months, and I've reached this conclusion.
I don't want to write stupid lengthy passages on citing chapter and verse of when Chomsky lied, and when he did the thousands of other deceptive things he does. You believe this is because I'm some sort of ignorant hack, trying to bring Chomsky down with made-up allegations, but in reality I don't want to turn what is supposed to be an "encyclopedia" article into some sort of essay in which I point-by-point critique every point Chomsky has ever made about anything. Your standards are absurd, and you use phrases like "weasel words" to describe perfectly acceptable phrases and practices used on every other page on Wikipedia.
What I wrote is perfectly legitimate. In his book, Chomsky accused Moynihan of bragging that the US had supported Indonesia, and supressed discussion of it in the UN. He selectively pulls a quote out of a large paragraph of text in which Moynihan is discussing the success in which the US undermined Chinese and Soviet sponsorship of Communist movements in Timor and Angola, as I said. You don't believe this because you believe Chomsky. You don't even consider this a remote possibilty because you believe Chomsky. I understand!
You are not the damn king of this page sir. This may be a difficult concept to understand, but how about letting someone else decide what are legitimate additions and what are not? I am putting the "disputed" tags on this page, because frankly it needs them at this point. user:J.J.
---
When he says “the United States wished things to turn out as they did” he is clearly refering to the failure of Soviet and Chinese-backed groups in East Timor and Africa. There is a great difference between wishing for the defeat of these groups and wishing for Indonesia to invade East Timor and kill thousands of people. Chomsky uses the phrase "Success was indeed considerable. [..] within two months some 60,000 people had been killed" which is just absurd, considering the "success" Moynihan is refering to has absolutely nothing to do with the amount of Timorese citizens killed.
But I don't care, there this sort of lengthy, chapter-and-verse dispute has no place in an encylopedia article in the first place. I only added it because you demanded I cite something specific, because, as I said, you don't believe legitimate criticism of Chomsky exists, and apparently also refuse to accept the fact that there is a large body of mainstream Chomsky criticism out there, and has been for many years.
Sigh, I am going to re-ad yet another paragraph just summerizing the mainstream points of criticism that critics have of Chomsky. I am sure it will be deleted within seconds by king Nimc, ruler of the Chomsky page. user:J.J.
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(10/22/03) hello. i've made some changes to the chomsky article. mostly i rewrote the section on linguistics -- clarified chomsky's ideas and addressed the primary criticisms on the part of other linguists. i also softened the language a bit in the psychology section, and made a small change at the end of the section on Faurisson that imo should try to make it more balanced (though i won't be surprised if it generates controversy :). benwing
(16/09/04) Hi, i made some additions about other alternatives to Chomskyan linguistics, specifically mentioning Lakoff and Johndon and discursive psychology etc. Anyone who disagrees feel free to tamper!
BScotland
I think such (and other) alternatives deserve mention, but further information about them should be provided on their own articles. Also, the section seems misplaced considering the current heading levels. A paragraph somewhere in Contributions to Linguistics looks like a better alternative to me. -- Glimz 00:54, Sep 16, 2004 (UTC)
What does everyone else think? BScotland
So are we agreed that the subject heading should be changed and that this should become a paragraph? The other alternative is simply to have two entries, one for Chomsky's linguistics and one for his political views. However I do think it's important to note that many linguists (in fact, most) are NOT Chomskyans, and at least have links to alternative 'paradigms', regardless of whether we decide these are the ones that should be highlighted or not. BScotland
Ok, it's now just a paragraph (with a heading) and no longer a section. Also I've removed the 'weasel words' of the first sentence and tidied it up a bit. Whether these are the 'opposing views' that ought to be highlighted is of course a moot point. The problems with Chomsky's theories is that they are linguistic theories, but also theories of psychology and philosophy. So they can be attacked on many grounds. I felt it ought to be made clear that there are alternative philosophical paradigms to the ones Chomskyans normally take for granted. BScotland
I just want to say that, after all the charge and counter-charge I've just finished reading above, that this is a great article. I knew little of Chomsky before reading it: just the inevitabe stuff that I guess any psychology major picks up along the way, plus a vague awareness that he is a prominent advocate of some unpopular leftish causes. Having read the article, I know more than I did before - which is the whole point of this place after all - and am not left with any nagging suspicion that the substantial stuff (his influence in linguistics and psychology)is unreliable. OK, the anti-semite question stuff goes on at too great a length and shows the scars of too many edit wars, but not greatly so. It's a damn good article, and a credit to its many authors. Tannin
Chomsky "grew up...in the Jewish-Zionist cultural tradition" (Peck, p. 11). His father was one of the foremost scholars of the Hebrew language and taught at a religious school. Chomsky has also had a long fascination with and involvement in left-wing Zionist politics. As he described:
He is extremely critical of the policies of Israel towards the Palestinians and ethnic minority Jewish populations within Israel. Among many articles and books, his book The Fateful Triangle is considered one of the premier texts among those who oppose Israeli treatment of Palestinians and American support for Israel. He has also condemned Israel's role in "guiding state terrorism" for selling weapons to Latin American countries that he characterizes as U.S. puppet states, e.g. Guatemala in the 1970s. (What Uncle Sam Really Wants, Chapter 2.4) In addition, he has repeatedly and vehemently condemned the United States for its military and diplomatic support for Israel, and sectors of the American Jewish community (e.g. Anti-Defamation League) for their role in obtaining this support.
Partially because of these criticisms, Chomsky has been accused of being anti-semitic many times. The most outspoken of his critics include journalist David Horowitz, who has toured college campuses distributing anti-Chomsky pamphlets, attorney/professor Alan Dershowitz, with whom Chomsky has engaged in many verbal battles through the media, and sociology professor emeritus Werner Cohn, who has written an entire book on the subject, Partners in Hate. One of the most common charges is that while in theory there may be a difference between the concept of anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism, in practice anti-Zionism is a manifestation of anti-Semitism. Under this theory, Chomsky's opposition to a Jewish state (or all anarchists' opposition) is thus indicative of anti-Semitism.
Chomsky, a Jew, rejects charges of anti-Semitism and claims that he has always spoken out against bigotry, including anti-Semitism. As he writes in "Thought Control: The Case of the Middle East" [Pirates and Emperors, Old and New, pg. 29]:
My own views, for example, are regularly condemned as "militant anti-Zionism" by people who are well aware of those views, repeatedly and clearly expressed: that Israel within its internationally recognized border should be accorded the rights of any state in the international system, no more, no less, and that in every state, including Israel, discriminatory structures that in law and in practice assign a special status to one category of citizens (Jews, Whites, Christians, etc.), granting them rights denied to others, should be dismantled.
In 1979, Robert Faurisson, a French professor, wrote a book claiming that the Nazis did not have gas chambers, did not attempt a genocide of Jews (or any other groups), and that the "myth" of the gas chambers had been put forth by Zionist swindlers for the benefit of the state of Israel and to the detriment of Germans and Palestinians. (Hitchens, 1985)
Shortly after, Chomsky signed a petition condemning censorship of Faurisson's works in France. The petition claimed that Faurisson's works were based on "extensive independent historical research." (On Faurisson and Chomsky) Following a controversy regarding this petition, Chomsky wrote an essay entitled Some Elementary Comments on The Rights of Freedom of Expression, which dealt mainly with the freedom to conduct and publish unpopular research, but also stated that he had not found evidence of anti-Semitism in the parts of Faurisson's work that he had reviewed. Chomsky granted permission for this essay to be used for any purpose; it was used as the preface for a book by Faurisson.
Chomsky's writings sparked a great furore. Many people held that Faurisson's statements were the archetype of anti-Semitism, and that the logical conclusion of Chomsky's statement would be that Naziism was not anti-semitic. For example, Deborah Lipstadt wrote in Dimensions, the journal of the ADL:
Chomsky later wrote (His Right to Say It): "Faurisson's conclusions are diametrically opposed to views I hold and have frequently expressed in print (for example, in my book Peace in the Middle East?, where I describe the holocaust as "the most fantastic outburst of collective insanity in human history"). But it is elementary that freedom of expression (including academic freedom) is not to be restricted to views of which one approves, and that it is precisely in the case of views that are almost universally despised and condemned that this right must be most vigorously defended."
Can someone please explain to me the logic of the piece in brackets (On Faurisson and Chomsky) from the quoted paragraph from the article (which is the second paragraph under the heading
Does it mean that Faurisson's work is based on historical research by Faurisson and Chomsky? It would be kind of unlogical to call it "extensive independent" then. Thanks, snoyes 00:53 Apr 1, 2003 (UTC)
tothebarricades.tk made the following change, commenting that "Bakunin was not a socialist":
I reverted the change because the second part of the sentence goes on to talk about the socialization of the means of production. The next sentence continues "He refers to this as real socialism." It is true that Bakunin's doctrine was anarchist, but it does not mean that he didn't have socialist views. Chomsky frequently substitutes the term libertarian socialism for anarchism. The whole paragraph needs to be reworked (or atleast the whole sentence) if anarchism is to be substituted here.
-- Evan 06:21, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)
From a newly-added paragraph:
He talks alot about the "threat of a good example" in Uncle Sam ( [1]). But even in that very chapter he never says the good example is "socialism", but rather "independence" or an "independent path". Where has he said that he thinks "socialism" is a "more effective system"? DanKeshet 21:42 27 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Overall, I think we're not that far apart and you're adding good new material about Chomsky's thoughts on the more abstract subjects. However, I still don't understand your reasoning behind some of it and I think some of it needs citations.
1) When specifically has Chomsky called himself a Marxist? Not that it's totally implausible, but this needs a citation. (Leaving this part pending an answer.)
2) Why do you say Latin American and South America? Better would be 'Latin America' or 'South and Central America' (Restoring this part pending an answer.)
3) Saying "the United States' capitalist influence" rather than "the United States' influence" is wrong. Did Chomsky speak out about Soviet imperialism because of the Soviet Union's "capitalist" influence on Afghanistan? (And yes, Chomsky has spoken out against the Soviet influence, although it has been muted compared to his discussion of the US, for the reasons discussed in the article.) (restoring pending answer)
4) Why did you replace the single link to libertarian socialism (Wikipedia's page on Chomsky's style of anarchism) to seperate links to the "disambiguating" page anarchism and the more specific page libertarian socialism? (restoring pending answer.)
5) You consistently attach motives to Chomsky's actions that he himself does not attach, and which seem to be counterfactual. Does Chomsky oppose US meddling in Iran (as described in Uncle Sam) because the Islamic Revolution was "socialist"?! Did Chomsky really oppose Bolshevism because it would disparage socialism, and not because it was authoritarian and brutal? Why not just describe Chomsky's writings, and let others deduce the motives? Or describe the motives which Chomsky himself gives? I am reverting and deleting many instances of this.
I do hope you stick around, and keep working on the page, though, because you are adding good content.
DanKeshet 15:58, 30 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I expanded the second paragraph of the Faurisson section to give more context. I also changed the quotation from "extensive independent historical research" to "extensive historical research" which I think is more correct. Both of Chomsky's arch-critics Cohn and Dershowitz give it like that. Actually the critics focused more on the word "findings", so I've quoted that too. There is one thing I'm not completely sure about: whether the court case against Faurisson came later (as I put it) or earlier. If someone knows it was earlier, please correct it. -- zero 06:25, 10 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Forget his politics, what about his science? I understand that in thepast decade there have been many findings in neurophysiology which can be interpreted as lending support to Chomsky's theories about how human grammar. This topic certainly is worth getting into. RK 01:10, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)
In the expanded section on Chomsky and socialism, 142.158..., you included some direct quotes in quote marks. What are you quoting? DanKeshet
This has a direct quote in it. What is it quoting? DanKeshet
The full quote is:
American dissidents have to face the fact that they are living in a state with enormous power, used for murderous and destructive ends. Honest people will have to face the fact that they are morally responsible for the predictable human consequences of their acts. One of these acts is accurate criticism, accurate critical analysis of authoritarian state socialism in North Vietnam or in Cuba or in other countries that the United States is trying to subvert. The consequences of accurate critical anal ysis will be to buttress these efforts, thus contributing to suffering and oppression.
It's quoted from an interview in the book "Destructive Generation," which is writen by a Chomsky critic.
I'm moving the Faurisson section to a special article on the Faurisson Affair. I'm justifying the decision on the grounds that this was the criterion adopted with the Dershowitz-Finkelstein Affair.
I moved the following text to here because it is broken analysis:
- - - - - - -
Chomsky's views on terrorism are not unifaceted. On page 76 of his book 9-11, Noam Chomsky defines terrorism:
Wanton killing of innocent civilians is terrorism, not a war against terrorism.
Chomsky clearly distinguishes between the targeting of civilians and the targeting of military personnel or installations. Thereby placing the definition of terrorism on an objective basis. At other times, Chomsky defines terrorism as being relative:
It is the weapon of those who are against 'us' whoever 'us' happens to be. And if you can find a historical exception to that, I'd be interested in seeing it.
In addition, Noam Chomsky identifies terrorism with low intensity warfare.
The U.S. is officially committed to what is called “low–intensity warfare.” That’s the official doctrine. If you read the definition of low–intensity conflict in army manuals and compare it with official definitions of “terrorism” in army manuals, or the U.S. Code, you find they’re almost the same. Terrorism is the use of coercive means aimed at civilian populations in an effort to achieve political, religious, or other aims. That’s what the World Trade Center bombing was, a particularly horrifying terrorist crime.
- - - - - - -
The problem is that the analysis being presented does not distinguish between what Chomsky thinks terrorism is and what he says other people mean by the word. In the first quotation he is giving an opinion of his own (but it is not a definition since it doesn't say that nothing else could be terrorism also). In the second quotation he is commenting on what he sees as the establishment usage of the word "terrorism". He is not saying he agrees with it and in fact it is obvious that he does not. In the third quotation he is again emphasising the commentary made in the second quotation, and again he does not at all say that he agrees with either of the two usages of the word "terrorism" that he describes. In other words, there is nothing at all contradictory between these three quotations. I find them entirely consistent and entirely Chomskyesque. -- Zero 07:23, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)
TDC, I think the addition of the quote regarding Chomsky's support of terrorism requires some more information:
Also note that Chomsky doesn't say that there should be exceptions specifically for Marxist insurgencies in terms of the use of terror tactics — this is your interpretation of what he said and it shouldn't be stated as a fact on the page. What Chomsky seems to be saying, if the quote is genuine, is that in general, terror can sometimes be justified, depending on whether it has good or bad consequences on balance. This is very different from your summary of Chomsky's views on this matter. I have reverted the edit until a compromise can be reached. Cadr
I saw 2 smears in the article. There was a line saying that Chomsky has endorsed terrorism by communist movements. I don't think it is legitimate to put such a line in the criticism section, because it implies that Chomsky did in fact 'endorse terrorism by communist movements', and some people are critical of him doing this. A better try would have been to say that some people accuse Chomsky of 'endorsing terrorism by communist movements', but without any evidence for this it'd sound more critical of the people who make these accusations anyway, so I deleted this line. Second, there's criticism that the claims that USA is responsible for the deaths of thousands of innocent civilians in Sudan aren't based, but the corrrect link to the wikipedia article claiming the exact same thing was missing. For now, I just fixed the link to the Al-Shifa plant bombing, and left the criticism as it is. However, the whole incident is more likely to put apologists of USA atrocities in a bad light than anything else, and in fact what Chomsky discussed in his book 9-11 makes this even more troubling, since USA blocked attempts by the UN to inspect the damage in Sudan. Anyway, Chomsky's reply to the questioning of his sources can be found at salon.com -- Nimc 12 Apr 2004
The line "Alan Dershowitz, with whom Chomsky has engaged in many verbal battles through the media," seems to imply that Chomsky was on tv together with Dershowitz many times, assuming that 'verbal battle through the media' means tv. This is probably wrong, or to the very least the word 'many' is wrong, though I suspect that no such 'verbal battles' occured at all (Chomsky is not exactly a welcomed guest on tv shows.) All I know of is a university talk by Chomsky in which Dershowitz claims he debated him, and an exchange of letters in the Boston Globe (i.e. not verbal) which Dershowitz wouldn't be delighted to be reminded of. This line was added to wikipedia on 4 Aug 2002, but integrated from another entry, so I guess it's hard to know who wrote it? If anyone has evidence for it, I'd be interested to see it.
Also, the title 'About Chomsky and Chomsky archives' doesn't contain any archives. And, the link for Werner Cohn's sci-fi book appears twice, both there and as [1] in criticism - I'd assume that one link should be more than enough for this particular book... -- Nimc 00:24, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)
There are too many criticisms. Is this page about Chomsky or criticisms of Chomsky? Just say what he believes and let people decide for themselves. -- Mike W. Orlando, Fl.
There are several places in the article where I'm not sure if the writer maybe just wrote what he felt like, without much relation to reality:
1) "particularly popular among many groups of university students in the United States and Canada" - What's special about Canada, in comparison to other countries? Maybe a Canadian wrote that? Maybe it's correct, I don't know.
2) "even endorsed candidates for office" - probably the word "endorsed" is a little too strong. For example, in the ZNet forum replies that I added in the external links, he said that "endorsing Kerry" is an invention of headline writers, when answering a question about voting against Bush and tactical voting.
3) The "pre-determined thesis" criticism is too vague, who are these critics that remain unmentioned throughout the paragraph? Could someone mention some reasonable authors who don't just make accusations without evidence, but actually reviewed a book seriously and made claims such as "uses selective quotes and out-of-context facts" and the rest? So we could make this paragraph less mystical...
4) The leftist criticism (which I wrote!) is also not too great. The part about being criticized for not being a good enough anarchist was written in the 'Political views' part of the article, so I moved it here - but I wonder if maybe this is just some internet forums type of criticism that is not even worth mentioning. The anti-Marxist part is probably too strong - it's true that Chomsky is critical of Marxism, he also said something like "any theory named after a single person is probably pathological" - but to say that people accuse him of anti-Marxism is probably too strong.
5) The "lacking credentials" criticism sounds fine, but has anyone actually used such criticism? It sounds like an invention, i.e. someone just woke up one morning and decided it'd be cool to write it here. I tried to look and couldn't find anyone who said anything similar to this - could someone show me an example?
6) "The entire Cambodia issue was quite controversial for Chomsky's reputation, with many of his supporters arguing that Chomsky had in fact been wrong in his initial assessments of the Cambodian situation, a charge which Chomsky denies. (See Ear, 1995.)" - I looked briefly at that Ear link, and didn't see there any "Chomsky supporter" who argued that Chomsky was wrong, let alone "many supporters". Could anyone name a few such "Chomsky supporters" please? Nimc 18:54, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)
7) The "About Chomsky" Lipstadt link is not about Chomsky. In the one paragraph there that discusses Chomsky, she is misleading. But anyway, the relevant point of view from that article is already quoted in Faurisson Affair. Nimc 19:54, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC) Thanks for fixing this. Nimc 23:57, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)
8) "Chomsky is also often criticized as being a conspiracy theorist" - This paragraph sounds stupid to me. May I see evidence? Is there someone who wrote this while actually referring to something that Chomsky said, i.e. not just made a wild charge without attributing it to anything. Here is a recent [5] example, the technique here is to use the phrase "planet Chomsky" with no other details. If this criticism is only made by people who don't back it up with anything, I think we can remove it. Also note the word "often" in the quotation. Nimc 23:57, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)
9) "Accusations of anti-semitism" - I claim that the person who originally wrote this was bluffing. May I see evidence where either Dershowitz or Horowitz "accuse" Chomsky of being an anti-Semite? As for Werner Cohn, he accuses Chomsky of being a neo-Nazi, so I guess anti-Semite is included there. Nimc 23:57, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Also, the Sudan Al-Shifa bombing criticism looks more like a criticism of Bill Clinton (and Richard Clarke?) than anything else... -- Nimc 23:55, 31 May 2004 (UTC)
For J.J.:
you added the quote: "The deaths in Cambodia were not the result of systematic slaughter and starvation organized by the state but rather attributable in large measure to peasant revenge, undisciplined military units out of government control, starvation and disease that are direct consequences of the US war, or other such factors."
A quick search discovers that the quotation marks around the quote you added are a lie.
Here's the full paragraph: "If 2-2.5 million people, about 1/3 of the population have been systematically slaughtered by a band of murderous thugs who have taken over the government, then McGovern is willing to consider international military intervention. We presume that he would not have made this proposal if the figure of those killed were, say, less by a factory of 100--that is 25 000 people--though that would be bad enough. Nor would he have been likely to propose this extreme measure if the deaths in Cambodia were not the result of systematic slaughter and starvation organized by the state, but rather attributable in large measure to peasant revenge, undisciplined military units out of government control, starvation, and disease that are direct consequences of the US war, or other such factors. Nor has McGovern, or anyone else, called for military intervention to cut short the apparent massacre of something like one sixth of the population of East Timor in the course of the Indonesian invasion."
It is quite obvious that you don't have the book from which you're quoting, and you believed some right wing source with this quote to be truthful. Nimc 19:54, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Please also reply to (3) above under ==Inaccuracies?==, as I now noticed that you wrote the paragraph referred to there. Nimc 22:07, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)
For 213.7.253.5:
Again, the standard here is that you don't make the criticism by youself. You wrote "Critics often alledge..." - if there are serious people or groups who alledge something, then quote them. Though with regard to Cambodia, I advise you to just read the original article [6] etc, as some of the other people (particularly on the internet) who comment on this issue appear to be mentally instable. The most extreme example seems to be this [7] one.
I'll also remove the paragraphes that correspond to (3) and (4) in ==Inaccuracies?== because they don't meet this standard. I can add some citations for (4), but I regret that I wrote it anyway. Other paragraphes should also be either improved or removed, imho (9) should be modified and (8) should be removed because it's probably not based on anything serious, but maybe I'm wrong. Nimc 08:00, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)
For Nimc: I didn't make criticism myself at all! I quoted Chomsky. Furthermore, I did post a link to "serious people or groups" which was promptly deleted by the self-appointed censors. It is bad netiquette, as the FAQ for Wikipedia advises to delete and revert as little as possible. Yet, every addendum, including relevant quotes are immediately censored. Chomsky's denial of Khmer Rouge atrocities and his support for China are clearly pertinent to "Criticism". Chomsky stands by his words to this day, so why censor them?
Furthermore the site linked to which has an extensive review (with full bibliography) of the debate over Cambodia is a site about Cambodia, clearly relevant to the Cambodian genocide, no.
To Nimc: You uphold an arbitrary self-created burden of proof only in this case. No where else is publishing in a "serious" journal necessary for inclusion. That is totally false. In all other articles, "allegations" are regularly posted. The author of that site is not anonymous and has full references. All we are saying by including it is that "some people says this about Chomsky". IT is pure hypocrisy (and maybe willful) that you demand higher standards for critical sources of Chomksky than in any other case.
You say: "You are naive if you think that the web site you added is truthful." But nothing on Wikipedia purports to be "truthful". That is a misunderstanding. It is at minimum one view of Chomsky. In a npov way, we must tell people what the main views of Chomsky are. This is just one of them. You can add others but we should not censor criticisms of Chomsky.
As for the quotes from Chomsky *himself*, they are not criticism but are evidence of his views at the time. This is directly relevant to the controversy. Are you claiming that Chomsky's own words are not "serious" (a criteria you have apparently invented yourself)????
You are attempting wholesale censorship of both 1) the facts (Chomsky's quotes) and 2)criticisms of Chomsky.
Socrates999,
You're vandalizing wikipedia, don't you have any respect for private property?
You've been constantly ignoring our requests to edit the talk page instead of the main article - each time someone has to revert your edits in the main article it adds another 32k of space to the wikipedia history. Except for this last creative edit of yours, in which you somehow managed to duplicate the entire article twice resulting in a double article, thus adding 64k.
You should read the help pages for newcomers before you start your adventures here. From there you would have learned that the correct way to revert an article is to click on the desired version in the history, then click 'edit', then click 'save'. Please use this simple method instead of your (imperfect...) copy and paste techniques.
I've explained to you in detail why you should describe public criticism and not make the criticism by yourself in wikipedia. Please don't edit the main page with criticism that you're making by yourself.
Basically ANY criticism made of Chomksy is DELETED because you can always claim it is "my" criticism, despite a plethora of critics who say the same thing, and who I linked to and referenced. Even Chomsky's own quotes are deleted as "my" opinion???
It's probably fruitless, but I'll try one last example in order to try to clarify: suppose I'd like to add the criticism in the Laura Bush article that 'some critics' think that she murdered her boyfriend, and that she should be tried for murder and perhaps executed if found guilty. And suppose I'll back up this criticism using a Bruce Sharp style external link such as this [8] one. Do you see any problem with this?
Also, your "Moss-New York Times" quote is ridiculous.
It's referring to a NYT correspondent by the name of Moss who fabricated his sources with regard to "slaughter", read the paragraph. Chomsky and Herman didn't say that there's no "slaughter", they explicitly wrote in the last paragraph that they don't "pretend to know where the truth lies". Also, your "more than 1.7 million" number is higher than the highest estimates - it appears that from your point of view, the more dead Cambodians, the better - which is a really sick behavior. I strongly suggest that you read some articles about Cambodia (here's a recent
[9] one) in order to get an impression of what really happened there, and stop playing with the number of deaths in such a sloppy manner as if this is some kind of a game. Also, you keep confusing 1967 with 1977 in your edits.
By the way, are you a relative of Ann Coulter or something? This business of whining about censorship sounds awfully similar to this [10] National Review incident. Nimc 18:20, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Here's the paragraph from which he decided to quote the last sentence as being one of Chomsky's 'most infamous' statements:
In the New York Times Magazine, May 1, 1977, Robert Moss (editor of a dubious offshoot of Britain's Economist called "Foreign Report" which specializes in sensational rumors from the world's intelligence agencies) asserts that "Cambodia's pursuit of total revolution has resulted, by the official admission of its Head of State, Khieu Samphan, in the slaughter of a million people." Moss informs us that the source of this statement is Barron and Paul, who claim that in an interview with the Italian weekly Famiglia Cristiana Khieu Samphan stated that more than a million died during the war, and that the population had been 7 million before the war and is now 5 million. Even if one places some credence in the reported interview nowhere in it does Khieu Samphan suggest that the million postwar deaths were a result of official policies (as opposed to the lag effects of a war that left large numbers ill, injured, and on the verge of starvation). The "slaughter" by the Khmer Rouge is a Moss-New York Times creation.
Here's the paragraph in the end of the article:
We do not pretend to know where the truth lies amidst these sharply conflicting assessments; rather, we again want to emphasize some crucial points. What filters through to the American public is a seriously distorted version of the evidence available, emphasizing alleged Khmer Rouge atrocities and downplaying or ignoring the crucial U.S. role, direct and indirect, in the torment that Cambodia has suffered. Evidence that focuses on the American role, like the Hildebrand and Porter volume, is ignored, not on the basis of truthfulness or scholarship but because the message is unpalatable.
Perhaps someone else would like to try to explain to him why he shouldn't make criticisms by himself?
I tried to quote from the NPOV article and give him several examples, but I'm giving up for now. Also, he claims that I'm vandalizing wikipedia by reverting his edits on the main article, so I guess it'd be better if others would revert his edits. This individual is a living proof why people should describe public debates and not insert their own criticism into wikipedia articles.
Nimc 10:41, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
In a recent edit, Chomsky's critics have been classified by left-wing/right-wing. I agree that under some political spectra in the US, Dershowitz is considered a left-winger, but I don't think it makes sense in this context for two reasons: 1) under almost any accepted political spectrum, Dershowitz is far to the right of Chomsky. In the context of an article on Chomsky, Dershowitz could just as easily be called a right-winger. 2) even on the conventional political spectrum of the US, the disagreements between Chomsky and Dershowitz revolve around Israel and Palestine, an issue that doesn't appear along a political spectrum in the US. Therefore, I would like to remove these labels from Dershowitz and Horowitz (an interesting left/right story himself).
That quote could be highly misconstrued by someone not familiar with Chomsky's ideas or writing style.
Mention this in the main article.
"Yesterday and today, my friends and I visited Tanh Hoa province. There we were able to see at first hand the constructive work of the social revolution of the Vietnamese people. We saw luxurious fields and lovely countryside. We saw brave men and women who know how to defend their country from brutal aggression, but also to work with pride and with dignity to build a society of material prosperity, social justice, and cultural progress. I would like to express the great joy that we feel in your accomplishments.
"We also saw the ruins of dwellings and hospitals, villages mutilated by savage bombardments, craters disfiguring the peaceful countryside. In the midst of the creative achievements of the Vietnamese people, we came face to face with the savagery of a technological monster controlled by a social class, the rulers of the American empire, that has no place in the 20th century, that has only the capacity to repress and murder and destroy.
"We also saw the (Ham Ranh) Bridge, standing proud and defiant, and carved on the bills above we read the words, 'determined to win.' The people of Vietnam will win, they must win, because your cause is the cause of humanity as it moves forward toward liberty and justice, toward the socialist society in which free, creative men control their own destiny.
"This is my first visit to Vietnam. Nevertheless, since the moment when we arrived at the airport at Hanoi, I've had a remarkable and very satisfying feeling of being entirely at home. It is as if we are renewing old friendships rather than meeting new friends. It is as if we are returning to places that have a deep and personal meaning.
"In part, this is because of the warmth and the kindness with which we have been received, wherever we have gone. In part, it is because for many years we have wished all our strength and will to stand beside you in your struggle. We are deeply grateful to you that you permit us to be part of your brave and historical struggle. We hope that there will continue to be strong bonds of comradeship between the people of Vietnam and the many Americans who wish you success and who detest with all of their being the hateful activities of the American government.
"Those bonds of friendship are woven of many strands. From our point of view there is first of all the deep sympathy that we felt for the suffering of the Vietnamese people, which persists and increases in the southern part of your country, where the American aggression continues in full force.
"There is, furthermore, a feeling of regret and shame that we must feel because we have not been able to stop the American war machine. More important still is our admiration for the people of Vietnam who have been able to defend themselves against the ferocious attack, and at the same time take great strides forward toward the socialist society.
"But, above all, I think, is the feeling of pride. Your heroism reveals the capabilities of the human spirit and human will. Decent people throughout the world see in your struggle a model for themselves. They are in your debt, everlastingly, because you were in the forefront of the struggle to create a world in which the chains of oppression have been broken and replaced by social bonds among free men working in true solidarity and cooperation.
"Your courage and your achievements teach us that we too must be determined to win--not only to win the battle against American aggression in Southeast Asia, but also the battle against exploitation and racism in our own country.
"I believe that in the United States there will be some day a social revolution that will be of great significance to us and to all of mankind, and if this hope is to be proven correct, it will be in large part because the people of Vietnam have shown us the way.
"While in Hanoi I have had the opportunity to read the recent and very important book by Le Duan on the problems and tasks of the Vietnamese revolution. In it, he says that the fundamental interests of the proletariat of the people of all the world consists in at the same time in safeguarding world peace and moving the revolution forward in all countries. This is our common goal. We only hope that we can build upon your historic achievements. Thank you."
- Noam Chomsky, originally delivered on April 13, 1970 in Hanoi while he was visiting North Vietnam with a group of anti-war activists. Broadcast by Radio Hanoi on April 14, and published in the _Asia-Pacific Daily Report_ of the U.S. government's Foreign Broadcast Information Service, April 16, 1970, pages K2-K3.
The text quotes a Dershowitz book; ignoring for a while that he typically writes nonsensical screeed, we can deal with the book itself as a quotable source, not the blog. Either Dershowitz cites a source for it, or we can maybe ask NC's staff to comment. - Ste vertigo 18:09, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)
So basically (assumptions: nobody is lying outright, Chomsky doesn't speak Vietnamese, Radio Hanoi doesn't broadcast in English): Chomsky said something (while in Vietnam) ==> translated by Radio Hanoi ==> translated back by FBIS ==> Paul Hollander's book ==> Collier&Horowitz book It seems to me that it makes no sense to talk about anything else than what Chomsky said initially, and it will be pretty difficult to find out what exactly he said. We can probably dismiss the rest. Christopher Hitchen's article [14] talks about Collier&Horowitz's made up charges btw. pir 23:17, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)
radio Hanoi, or anywhere [while he was in Vietnam]". 2) That transcript has been circulating for 30 years (it is not a recent Horowitz forgery), 3) it's possible he gave informal remarks that were picked up somewhere, but certainly not these ones. DanKeshet 19:07, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Sample question: why did you remove the "criticism of science culture" section in an edit which purported only to be restoring some of the criticisms of Chomsky edited back in by J.J.? Cadr 18:38, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)
BTW, why do you keep editing in the same typos (e.g. "identifed" for "identified" in the intro)? Does it really surprise you that your changes are being reverted when you delete entire sections of an article for dubious reasons, make significant changes without explanation (e.g. qualifying left-wing with "smotimes radical", which has been a point of moderate controversy) and add in typos which other people will have to fix? Could we just discuss the changes you want to make here first and come to an agreement. I promise you I'm willing to compromise (e.g. by condensing some sections of the article, or moving them elsewhere). I know it may be hard to believe that we could come to an agreement in the present climate of edits, but let's give it a go. Cadr 18:57, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)
For now, how about we create a Criticism of Noam Chomsky article, and link to it in the criticism section of the main article. People like JJ and S999 could edit that page and improve it, and later on we could either re-integrate it back into the criticism section that the main article already has, or leave it as a separate article. This should stop most of the edit wars for now. How about it? Nimc 18:47, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I think most here would agree the article was fine before Socrates999 started messing with it. He has yet and seems unwilling to fully explain himself. Why can't we just call a vote and get this over with? -- GD 22:08, 31 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I don't know if I like the idea of a whole separate criticism of Chomsky page. There is a precedent for it on some other pages I understand, (Bush has several I believe) but I tend to think doing such a thing tends to "cheapen" wikipedia, making it look like one big internet forum where people make articles just to "counter" existing ones and so forth. Now with all respect, I realize that there are many Chomsky fans involved with this article, as is to be expected. As a result, I'm well aware that you fans may be instinctively skeptical of any criticisms or claims made of Chomsky. At the same time howeverm, from what I gather you seem to want every single sentence of criticism of Chomsky to be followed up by tons of little [1] [2] [3] 's, which in my view (from a mostly stylistic perspective) really makes an article look like it was written by a bunch of petty and partisan people. My main point is, as Chomsky fans you are by definition quite out of tune with what is and isn't mainstream points of Chomsky criticism. Most of what was in the "criticism" chapter were all quite mainstream critiques of Chomsky that thousands of conservative and moderate Democrats commonly use. Yet many of you continually regard these criticisms (ie: the standard critique that Chomsky is needlessly stubborn and biased in his analysis of history, that he omits facts when convienient, etc) as being confusing and strange; you argue they are "weasel words" and generally seem to argue as if they are made up allegations based on nothing. The point is, for wikipedia to work, there must always be a certain willingness to give others "the benefit of the doubt." I am more than willing to give the Chomsky fans who work on this article the benefit of the doubt for the vast majority of this page. I'm not about to demand citations and links after every claim that Chomsky supports this kind of anarchism over this kind of socialism or whatever, and I would hope that you all would in turn be willing to give me and others the benefit of the doubt when we add what we, as critics of Chomsky and readers of conservative pundits, et al, regard to be mainstream criticisms of the man and his beliefs. I hope that is all clear.
Now in the meantime I am going to re-add a couple of links on this page, linking to anti-Chomsky sites. The idea of creating an independent anti-Chomsky entry notwithstanding, there is no reason for this page, in it's current form, to NOT link to at least three pages criticizing Chomsky. user:J.J.
Please, can we have the interwiki links to other languages for the article back. They are last seen in the version from 13:58, 28 Jul 2004, and I see no reason whatever to delete them. Byrial 21:10, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)
This page has been protected for too long, and I am unprotecting it. Please discuss changes, do not engage in revert wars, and try to reach consensus. Furthermore, you might want to note the standards advocated by WikiProject Philosophy, which states that criticism of a thinker should be made with specific citations to critics instead of a vague "some argue that," thus restricting criticism to noteworthy criticism, and preventing original research. Snowspinner 14:05, Aug 12, 2004 (UTC).
This is off-topic for this page, but on-topic for controversial/disputed pages in general, so I hope you don't mind this interjection. I'm looking for a few good veterans of edit wars on frequently controversial pages like this one, who would be willing to look over a design proposal for Wiki branches that I've written up and will probably attempt to prototype in the near future (not likely on wikipedia itself at first, but perhaps on other experimental wikis). The whole thing is long, but I'd be quite happy if you only looked at the much shorter section on "Branches", which is the most important part. I'm particularly interested in hearing whether you think such a branch mechanism (a) would improve Wiki workflow and consensus-building, by allowing alternative approaches to be developed and evaluated side-by-side, or (b) would hinder consensus-building by making it less necessary for the majority to take minority viewpoints into account. But in general, I'm interested in any and all comments, preferably on my talk page. Thanks! - Brynosaurus 09:33, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Shouldn't the section in the Chomsky article that is titled Criticism of Science be titled differently? After all, he is the one defending science from other people's criticisms. Maybe the section ought to be titled "Defense of Science."
To User:192.116.202.36]: What is wrong with the following list of "critical articles" that you deleted without explanation from the Noam Chomsky page? I find the following list of "critical articles" very useful. Are these articles unfair in some way that I could not detect?
--> Begin deleted list of "critical articles" <--
--> End list of deleted "critical articles" <-- --- Rednblu 21:20, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)
<<Dr. Avram Noam Chomsky (born December 7, 1928) is an Institute Professor of linguistics at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and creator of the Chomsky hierarchy, a classification of formal languages. Outside of his linguistic work, Chomsky is also widely known for his radical left-wing political views, in particular his criticism of the foreign policy of United States governments.>>
<<Dr. Avram Noam Chomsky (born December 7, 1928) Has followed a dual career as an academic and as a political and media analyst and polemicist. He is an Institute Professor of linguistics at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology: as a young scholar he put forward the ideas that children have an innate capacity to learn language, and that all languages are based on a universal grammar. He has gone on to develop the Chomsky hierarchy, a system for understanding and improving grammars generally.
Chomsky’s political activities were stimulated by his opposition to the Vietnam war. He has developed a political theory that America, perhaps unconsciously, reacts as a system to suppress and obliterate any "good example" of a politics or economics which appears to function better than America's particular version of democracy and free market capitalism; within the American state, consent is manufactured by propaganda. Criticism of Chomsky’s politics has included allegations that he is an anti-semite, a conspiracy theorist, and/or an apologist for communist despots.>>
<<Dr. Avram Noam Chomsky (born December 7, 1928) is an Institute Professor of linguistics at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and creator of the Chomsky hierarchy, a classification of formal languages. His works in generative linguistics contributed significantly to the decline of Behaviorism, and led to the advancement of the Cognitive sciences. Outside of his linguistic work, Chomsky is also widely known for his radical left-wing political views, in particular his criticism of the foreign policy of United States governments. He is probably one of the most prominent and influential anarchist thinkers.>>
I started doing a 2-para version but I failed, since I couldn't get the defining and important first sentence to exclude any of his activies, hence it flowed together. Nevertheless, it might offer some advantages over the current, shorter version, if someone helps polish it. -- Glimz 02:19, Sep 13, 2004 (UTC)
<<Dr. Avram Noam Chomsky (born December 7, 1928) . . . >>
Choam-skee? Chahm-skee? (note the ironic lack of formal linguistic notation) Tempshill 17:13, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)
In English, Chahm-skee. In the language that the name originally came from, HHHomsky (a strong h, much like the sound that J makes in Spanish). -- Sesel 17:49, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)
These are complete nonsense and don't deserve to be linked. Can anyone make a convincing case for including them? Anyway, here's some of many issues I have with them:
Having a hard time with your idol being criticized? This Wikipedia entry is largely an attempt to dubiously elevate Chomsky to the pinnacle of American itellectuals and I don't think that one critical article in the external links section will undermine the propaganda effort. Amazing how you fly off the handle, considering that there are many more links inserted idealizing Chomsky's bias and status. Doug Sep 30 02:28:28 UTC 2004
Wow, you actually read the articles. You are a brave person, I commend you:) All I did is google his name, seems like he's being attacked and defended with regard to whether he whitewashes who killed the native people of Australia in a book of his. Funny that he should say that other people are Holocaust deniers. Anyway, my understanding of the wikipedia NPOV criteria is that if one significant party has one POV with regard to some issue, and another significant party has another POV with regard to that issue, then both POVs should be included, i.e. the accuracy of their POVs are not relevant, only their significance. You can debate whether this criteria is a good idea, but note that it is similar to the case where, let's say 60% of Americans believe that WMDs have been found in Iraq, so therefore in a sense WMDs have indeed been found in Iraq, because this belief has major consequences. And note that if you think that such articles shouldn't be included, then it's even more true for the Werner Cohn neo-Nazi book. Also worth noting that disinfopedia uses 'fair and accurate' instead of 'npov' as its criteria. In this specific case, it's an external link and not wikipedia content - I personally think that we should reduce the amount of all the external links, but I guess 3 critical articles is fine in the current form - though as I said above, I don't see why all the critical links have to be by right-wingers and not leftists etc. Nimc 03:13, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I didn't want to have to get this labored and specific with the criticisms, but apparently only citing a specific instance of a specific occasion in which Chomsky had done something objectionable was allowed. I honestly believe simply writing a brief summary of mainstream criticisms of him (ie: critics allege he often uses quotes out of context, presents a one-sided view, etc) would have been much more appropriate than me writing paragraphs on which speficic chapters from which books are controversial, or quoting passages from Horowitz or whatever, but apparently this is the only form of criticism of Chomsky on this page that will be permitted by the editing gods. I have played by exactly your rules, so please don't complain that my passage is too long or whatever. I did exactly what I was told, now hopefully what I wrote can stay for longer than five minutes without being edited out.
I also re-added the critical links. I really don't understand this. Look, the point is not that YOU agree with everything presented on the linked articles. Hell, I'm not saying I do. The point is to let the readers of the page decide, and to let the readers of the page realize that websites do in fact exist which are critical of Chomsky. user:J.J.
Listen Nimc, I am getting sick of the way you guard and protect this page solely out of blind allegiance to Chomsky. I realize that your brain has a hard time contemplating the fact that Chomsky could ever be wrong about anything and you instinctively regard every single person who criticizes Chomsky as some sort of fringe moron who just pulls random allegations out of his ass. Let me put this as clearly as I can: You will never allow legitimate criticism of Chomsky to appear on this page because you don't believe legitimate criticism of Chomsky exists. I've been trying to get some balance on this page for months, and I've reached this conclusion.
I don't want to write stupid lengthy passages on citing chapter and verse of when Chomsky lied, and when he did the thousands of other deceptive things he does. You believe this is because I'm some sort of ignorant hack, trying to bring Chomsky down with made-up allegations, but in reality I don't want to turn what is supposed to be an "encyclopedia" article into some sort of essay in which I point-by-point critique every point Chomsky has ever made about anything. Your standards are absurd, and you use phrases like "weasel words" to describe perfectly acceptable phrases and practices used on every other page on Wikipedia.
What I wrote is perfectly legitimate. In his book, Chomsky accused Moynihan of bragging that the US had supported Indonesia, and supressed discussion of it in the UN. He selectively pulls a quote out of a large paragraph of text in which Moynihan is discussing the success in which the US undermined Chinese and Soviet sponsorship of Communist movements in Timor and Angola, as I said. You don't believe this because you believe Chomsky. You don't even consider this a remote possibilty because you believe Chomsky. I understand!
You are not the damn king of this page sir. This may be a difficult concept to understand, but how about letting someone else decide what are legitimate additions and what are not? I am putting the "disputed" tags on this page, because frankly it needs them at this point. user:J.J.
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When he says “the United States wished things to turn out as they did” he is clearly refering to the failure of Soviet and Chinese-backed groups in East Timor and Africa. There is a great difference between wishing for the defeat of these groups and wishing for Indonesia to invade East Timor and kill thousands of people. Chomsky uses the phrase "Success was indeed considerable. [..] within two months some 60,000 people had been killed" which is just absurd, considering the "success" Moynihan is refering to has absolutely nothing to do with the amount of Timorese citizens killed.
But I don't care, there this sort of lengthy, chapter-and-verse dispute has no place in an encylopedia article in the first place. I only added it because you demanded I cite something specific, because, as I said, you don't believe legitimate criticism of Chomsky exists, and apparently also refuse to accept the fact that there is a large body of mainstream Chomsky criticism out there, and has been for many years.
Sigh, I am going to re-ad yet another paragraph just summerizing the mainstream points of criticism that critics have of Chomsky. I am sure it will be deleted within seconds by king Nimc, ruler of the Chomsky page. user:J.J.