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"Colorless green ideas sleep furiously." This sentence was invented by Noam Chomsky as an example of a sentence whose grammar is correct but for which the semantics are nonsense.
Afair he invented it to shop sentence, which grammar was correct, but
probablity of appearance of every word after its precedensor was almost zero,
and it had nothing to do with semantics, but with criticizing some probablity-based theories
of language.
Oh boy. I had remembered it as intending to show that the function of a word was dictated by its position in a sentence. For instance, that in English, adjectives come before nouns and adverbs come after verbs.
Wasn't the "word placement dictates function" sentence composed of nonsense words to emphasize the point? The one I learned was "The gostak distims the doshes". Despite the nonsense, an English speaker is able to determine that something called a gostak is currently performing an action called "distimming" to multiple instances of some other thing called a dosh. I'm pretty sure this predates Chomsky too. -- PaulDrye
In Aspects of the Theory of Syntax, it's used as an example of a sentence which is correct in terms of subcategorisation restrictions, but is incorrect in terms of selectional features (these are technical terms; no room to explain them here). The issue is complicated by the fact that Chomsky at the time (1965) regarded the sentence as syntactically incorrect, whereas he would now say that it is syntactically correct, but with meaningless semantics. So in modern terms, the sentence is an example of a grammatically correct, but completely meaningless utterance. -- Cadr
I don't know. My recollection of Chomsky and syntax was that Chomsky took it a step further with some complex formula (supposedly?) showing the universal syntax of language. Yes, universal, as in all languages. Reading it I quickly got over my head, but it seemed that that was no less than his claim. Probably a question for Jan Hidders, who knows about such things. :-) -- Koyaanis Qatsi
You may be thinking of the Chomsky hierarchy. There's a link to it from the Noam Chomsky page. He proved mathematically that every partially decidable language has a type-0 grammar. That's pretty universal.
But, this uses a very mathematical definition of "language" and "grammar". It may not be relevant to human spoken languages. The set of valid sentences that can be spoken by a human with bounded lifespan and talking speed is just a "finite language". This can be generated by a very boring kind of type-3 grammar. That "grammar" is just a simple list of all valid sentences. That doesn't say anything about the structure of the language. - LC
Thanks. --KQ
Chomsky's linguistics ideas have resulted in the insult: "Chomsky is the Freud of linguistics". This insult derives from the notion that Chomsky and Freud both completely ignored the scientific method in creating their "theories".
I guess NPOV has changed in definition to mean "we completely ignore things". Well, that's peachy. GregLindahl
HJH: Well before qualifiying the linguistic theory of Chomsky it should be stated first. Then you might come up with other peoples views. And possibly give some evidence supporting the claim ...
Jimbo, I shouldn't have to jump through hoops to simply note that he has detractors. Since it was made too hard for me to make that simple statement, I've given up. From what I can tell, simply deleting someone's text is against Wikipedia policy, and that's what was done. Go look at the text, which is quoted above. Pretty straightforward: "Detractors say X". That doesn't mean I should have to justify X. You can iterate all you like, I don't like getting screwed. GregLindahl
I don't think that supporters of his linguistic ideas are mainly 'radicals and anarchists'. -- Taw
I took that last to refer to his politics, not his linguistics. I'll reword. -- Koyaanis Qatsi
Well yes, not to be difficult, Chomsky's linguistics are considered radical by some, since I am one and I consider them radical. What I meant was, regardless of what I personally think, what was the reaction among people qualified to debate the subject matter (I am not one of those people)? I'd love to hear about it; I didn't know he had faced allegations of "junk science" in his methodology; I just remember it started some "Chomskyan revolution" in linguistics. Personally I find his methodology in his political writings both sound and exhaustively documented, but I do not think wikipedia should be a collection of KQ's personal opinions, especially in areas I'm not an expert, so I didn't add that to the article. Why can't we address the controversy around his work the same as all the other controversies: present all the arguments, complete with citations of who says what? Sorry I haven't been plugged in lately; I've been swamped with schoolwork. Sorry also if we've gone over this elsewhere. -- Koyaanis Qatsi
Greg, where does the quote "Chomsky the Freud of linguistics" come from? Google doesn't show it. --AxelBoldt
And seeing your concurrent contribution about the critics... perhaps the problem is that "some" is too general? Who? Where? Why? I work in the academic field; you could as well put my opinion up and cite it as "some say".... You see? I'm not trying to be difficult, just I prefer precision when possible. Beau regards, -- Koyaanis Qatsi
You should provide some examples of (preferably well-known) scientists attacking TG for being pseudo-science (not merely false, that can happen to all good scientific theories) before writing this. Anyway I think that even undeleted statement exaggerates controversy around transformational grammar - It was basis of work of many linguists in 1960s and 1970s (well, I don't know what's going on in linguistics now too well), many of them no one would dare to call pseudoscientists. -- Taw
So I can't even mention that the argument exists? That isn't Wikipedia policy; you should not delete people's words for this reason. GregLindahl
OK, Taw, I understand NPOV, and I disagree with you deleting my words. I'd happily bet you $10 that if you asked ANY professional linguist if anyone in the field feels Chomsky is pseudoscientific, they would say "yes". But if you find that so unbelievable, and feel so strongly about anything that YOU don't feel is sufficiently proven, then go ahead and delete my words. Hell, delete anything you want. It's an anarchy, and you're armed and dangerous. I'm not going to cooperate with someone who begins by deleting other people's words. You've appointed yourself King. Enjoy it. GregLindahl
How is his name pronounced? can someone add this? --Alan D (BTW, in "programming languages" in school, We had a textbook that proclaimed that his work on formal grammars were far more useful to computer languages, and of questionable use in natural language--tee hee!)
well, did chomsky, who was a linguist, create the notation we use, in like 1957 for natural languages or computer languages? --alan d
I am not a linguist, and I am hardly qualified to write an article on this topic, but I remember studying transformational grammars in my college linguistic class years ago, and thinking to myself, my God, this seems like such a kludge. He creates this nice formal grammar, and when he finds out that it doesn't actually describe real world languages that humans actually speak, he does a little presto magic (pay no attention to the man behind the curtain), and "transforms" the sentences to fit them into real world syntax. The whole process struck me as the linguistic version of pre-Copernican epicycles, where all sorts of magic had to be done to make the geocentric system work. Then again, I am not a linguist, so what do I know? Still, I have often wondered since then how other linguists react to his theories, since in my linguistics class it was basically just taught as a factual description of human language.
Well, I got a degree in linguistics from a department noted as being anti-Chomskyist, and although I spent as little time as possible on theory, I can state that anti-Chomskyist linguists focus specifically on Chomsky's fondness for proof-by-vigorous-handwaving. This is pretty much the same as criticism of an abandonment of empiricism and an almost sensationalist approach to theory.
In my opinion, one of the reasons that Chomsky's theories are so attractive to many is that they have much wider implications than those of his opponents. Greenberg's theory of universals carefully confines itself to description of observable phenomena (i.e. "most relative clauses are head-initial"), and thus offers almost no insight into how the mind works. Chomsky's assertions about the innate nature of language, however, are something that the cognitive-studies crowd can grab and run with, no matter whether they're verifiable or not.
Caveat: I also consider most of Chomsky's political writings to be propaganda of the Big Lie variety. In my opinion, his reasoning appears sound until you check his sources. I might agree with some of his points, but don't trust him farther than I could spit him.
What are some of the sources for the anti-Semitism paragraphs? I am dubious on several points but not firm enough to make corrections. I believe he never denied authorizing the essay, simply told him he could do whatever he wanted with it. Also I doubt Chomsky has supporters amoung anti-Semites, considering his background. - Eean
Chomsky has worked to a small degree with with anti-Semitic Holocaust deniers; see the below websites for documentation. He also has a temper: As Harvard Professor Alan Dershowitz and other witnesses have seen in public, he even will physically assault people who confront him with his own words. (see Dershowitz's new article on this topc.)
Many journalists have proven that Chomsky does repeatedly work with neo-Nazi anti-Semites. Chomsky's only defense is that is of Jewish descent and therefore, he claims, he cannot be an anti-Semite. Obviously, however, that argument is ludicrous. There have historically been many Jewish anti-Semites; some self-hating Jews worked in the Nazi army during World War II, and a Ku Klux Klansman in the US committed suicide when it was discovered that he was actually a Jew. (A recent movie, "The Believer", was inspired this case.) Curiously, gentiles still accept the myth that no Jew can be an anti-Semite, but no one in the Jewish community believes it.
Here is some documentation of Chomsky's collusion with neo-Nazi Holocaust deniers. http://www.frontpagemag.com/guestcolumnists/cohnpamph09-11-01.htm http://www.wernercohn.com/Chomskydocs.html
Neo-Nazi Holocaust deniers and anti-Semites warmly embrace Noam Chomsky. The notorious crypto-nazi organization, CODOH, parades Chomsky as their house Jew.
http://www.codoh.com/newrevoices/nros/nrosgobad.html
Other Nazi sites which embrace Chomsky include: http://www.zundelsite.org/english/debate/062_jam.html
The two websites cited above don't seem to say what the poster says they do. The first site has as many anti-Chomsky links as pro (I think, it is the devil to navigate). The second site complains, to paraphrase, that Chomsky is "too intelligent not to be one of us, but too chicken to admit it." It's obvious that the anti-Semites would love to claim Chomsky, but even they think there is something fishy about him, well, I think there's something fishy about him too, but these sites don't prove anything. Ortolan88
Also, the name of Chomsky's political views is anarcho-syndicalism, which he has called himself many times. Social anarchism, if it even exists, is something else. Whoever wrote that section doesn't seem to have read much about Chomsky. -- a different RK
Chomsky and Khmer Rouge:
After the Cataclysm, Postwar Indochina and the Reconstruction of Imperial Ideology by Noam Chomsky, Edward S. Herman
Not exactly an academic source, but the Amazon discussion of the book is long and interesting.
See also The Khmer Rouge Canon 1975-1979: The Standard Total Academic View on Cambodia, somebody's honors thesis including a whole chapter on Chomsky.
I just briefly looked at it and wow talk about hostility!! Sophal Ear has managed to integrate an impressive amount of insults into her arguments. I could take lessons from hir!
I really like Chomsky, because of his contributions to linguistics which have a bearing on natural language understanding and artificial intelligence. I've even met his son while I was studying at Harvard. However, I am distressed by his veering political views -- which I sharply disagree with.
Our task, nonetheless, is to present Chomsky from the NPOV not because neutrality is the position we all must take -- far from it! we all have sides -- but because the only way to for the Wikipedia to be free AND successful is to require NPOV articles. (I'm not too good at that, but I'm learning :-)
That said, how about someone talking about Time flies like an arrow and the ambiguity inherent in that sentence? Does time metaphorically fly? Or do flies of the "time" variety like arrows? Ed Poor, Friday, May 24, 2002
Why the beliefs of the American Jewish community are irrelevant;
[RK claimed that the conditions I imposed for proving Chomsky is an anti-semite were impossible to meet even for proven anti-semites]
Hardly. All you have to do is find a small group of people who do not a priori hate Chomsky and agree that he is an anti-Semite. Since Chomsky is an extreme left-winger, that excludes all right-wingers. Since his books viciously attack propaganda, this excludes both the American government and the American Jewish Congress. Since he attacks US foreign policy and US institutions, that excludes any "patriotic" American. Who do you have left? Only a few billion people. Take your pick.
You could easily support your argument by looking at what European Jewish populations think. But you won't because you have nothing to gain and everything to lose from it. Far better to grandstand and talk about the American Jewish community as if it were "the Jewish community". I'm betting that left-wing Israelis don't regard Chomsky as an anti-Semite (and by "left-wing", I don't mean members of the Israeli Labor party).
But let's look at why it's extremely unlikely that Chomsky is an anti-Semite (except in the twisted minds of a propagandized population). First, Chomsky is a scholar. And a damn good scholar. That means that his belief system is likely to be consistent. Second, Chomsky is an extreme left-winger. What does that mean? It means he's unlikely to support right-wing attitudes like racism, prejudice and bigotry. Third, he is an anarchist. What does that mean? It means he's unlikely to support human rights violations of any kind (whether committed by Israel or against it). Taken together, this means that it is extremely unlikely that Chomsky is an anti-Semite; it would contradict all the previous points. And needless to say, none of these arguments apply to David Duke.
Let's look even further. Chomsky has already given full explanations for his actions, beliefs and other people's misperceptions of him (especially people who haven't read a single thing he wrote but go on rumor and hearsay). Actually, he never explains his enemy's actions explicitly but they are easily understood if one understands his Propaganda Model for the USA. This propaganda model is itself supported by massive evidence inside and outside of Chomsky's books. So there exists an entirely reasonable explanation for the American Jewish community's hatred of Chomsky which has jack squat to do with any actual anti-Semitism on his part. You need extraordinary evidence because you have to 1) disprove the reasonable explanation (of vicious propaganda), and 2) prove the unreasonable explanation (of Chomsky as an inconsistent, unprincipled anti-Semite).
Until you've passed this test, you can't include "the American Jewish community thinks Chomsky is an anti-semite" while giving the impression that they're unbiased, knowledgeable observers. -- ark
This is incorrect. Chomsky discusses (ad nauseum) US support for human rights violators. Necessarily, he has criticized human rights violators in non-democracies from (the former military dictators of) Argentina and Chile to Indonesia to Saudi Arabia and Kuwait etc. He also criticizes human rights violations by Israel, Turkey, and many others, some democracies, some not, some nominally so. The common thread has nothing to do with democracy; it is that he spends all his time condemning the official friends of the United States and very little condemning the official enemies. He does condemn, often only in passing, human rights abuses by groups like the PLO, the NVA, and the Soviet Union (actually, he spends a fair amount of time on Marxism-Leninism). The article now reflects this.
The phrase "opposition to the concept of a Jewish state" is more accurate. First, his opposition is not absolute; he very often talks favorably about two-state solutions which involve a Jewish state. So we're left with the difference between "the rights of Jews to have a state of their own" and "the concept of a Jewish state". The first phrase presupposes that Jews have a right to "a state of their own", but this is precisely what Chomsky is arguing against: the idea of a state designated specifically for one nationality. It's inappropriate to phrase Chomsky's opposition in a manner that prejudges him to be incorrect.
I have rewritten this portion to try to make it clear Horowitz is not typical of Chomsky's critics.
On wikipedia, we've been referring to the anarchist views Noam Chomsky holds as "libertarian socialist" in order to disambiguate them from anarcho-capitalists and individualist anarchists, who also claim the word anarchism. Therefore, saying that chomsky's views have been classified "variously" as anarchist or libertarian socialist is inaccurate; the two are different names for the same thing. Also, it's important to retain the "broadly" becuase there are some anarchist orthodoxies and Chomsky doesn't always agree with them. (Or at least he doesn't go around making a show of agreeing with them...)
Dan, thanks for adding the following:
It explains something I always found bewildering. Ed Poor
OK, the contents of "Noam Chomsky and alleged anti-semitism" have been moved here. It looks like that article was originally taken from this one and moved to a spot of its own. Does anybody know why this was done? To me it seems strange that one would do that. -- Camembert
Or, heck, maybe we could simply integrate this material into this page. The main thing I'm concerned about is that large chunks of that material will get simply deleted. That material is there mainly because it's what's necessary to represent all sides of the debate accurately. If for a while this article is heavy on charges of anti-semitism, et cetera, then I'll try to add some other stuff to it, biographical info or something. DanKeshet
Should the link to http://www.oswaldmosley.com/people/chomsky.html have a warning? It is a prety extreme group!
When I read Chomsky's books I got the impression that he was not anti-government, but wanted a government which represented the people rather than big business. This differs from what I associate with Libertarian socialism, and the Wikipedia definition. Does the link to Libertarian socialism imply beliefs that Chomsky does not hold? Chris Q
I think we got rid of the Making Fun of Brittanica page, so, I'll leave this bit here. The Columbia Encyclopedia article on Chomsky lists "Some Concepts and Consequences of the Theory of Government and Binding (1982)" as one of Chomsky's political works. I immediately looked for the "edit" link so I could explain that that's a linguistic work with a seperate meaning of the word government. I couldn't find the edit link. :) DanKeshet
An anonymous contributor added the sentence "This is consistent with anarchist ideals" to the end, but I can not understand from the phrasing and placement whether this was intended to mean "Chomsky's views are consistent with anarchist ideals," which I agree with, but seems irrelevant to me. (Indeed, the whole point of including Chomsky's dig at holocaust-exploiters seems to be to make cheap points, not to inform the reader.) The other way it could be interpreted would be that the central doctrine referred to in the previous sentence is consisten with anarchist ideals, which is inaccurate. DanKeshet 20:55 Nov 29, 2002 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
"Colorless green ideas sleep furiously." This sentence was invented by Noam Chomsky as an example of a sentence whose grammar is correct but for which the semantics are nonsense.
Afair he invented it to shop sentence, which grammar was correct, but
probablity of appearance of every word after its precedensor was almost zero,
and it had nothing to do with semantics, but with criticizing some probablity-based theories
of language.
Oh boy. I had remembered it as intending to show that the function of a word was dictated by its position in a sentence. For instance, that in English, adjectives come before nouns and adverbs come after verbs.
Wasn't the "word placement dictates function" sentence composed of nonsense words to emphasize the point? The one I learned was "The gostak distims the doshes". Despite the nonsense, an English speaker is able to determine that something called a gostak is currently performing an action called "distimming" to multiple instances of some other thing called a dosh. I'm pretty sure this predates Chomsky too. -- PaulDrye
In Aspects of the Theory of Syntax, it's used as an example of a sentence which is correct in terms of subcategorisation restrictions, but is incorrect in terms of selectional features (these are technical terms; no room to explain them here). The issue is complicated by the fact that Chomsky at the time (1965) regarded the sentence as syntactically incorrect, whereas he would now say that it is syntactically correct, but with meaningless semantics. So in modern terms, the sentence is an example of a grammatically correct, but completely meaningless utterance. -- Cadr
I don't know. My recollection of Chomsky and syntax was that Chomsky took it a step further with some complex formula (supposedly?) showing the universal syntax of language. Yes, universal, as in all languages. Reading it I quickly got over my head, but it seemed that that was no less than his claim. Probably a question for Jan Hidders, who knows about such things. :-) -- Koyaanis Qatsi
You may be thinking of the Chomsky hierarchy. There's a link to it from the Noam Chomsky page. He proved mathematically that every partially decidable language has a type-0 grammar. That's pretty universal.
But, this uses a very mathematical definition of "language" and "grammar". It may not be relevant to human spoken languages. The set of valid sentences that can be spoken by a human with bounded lifespan and talking speed is just a "finite language". This can be generated by a very boring kind of type-3 grammar. That "grammar" is just a simple list of all valid sentences. That doesn't say anything about the structure of the language. - LC
Thanks. --KQ
Chomsky's linguistics ideas have resulted in the insult: "Chomsky is the Freud of linguistics". This insult derives from the notion that Chomsky and Freud both completely ignored the scientific method in creating their "theories".
I guess NPOV has changed in definition to mean "we completely ignore things". Well, that's peachy. GregLindahl
HJH: Well before qualifiying the linguistic theory of Chomsky it should be stated first. Then you might come up with other peoples views. And possibly give some evidence supporting the claim ...
Jimbo, I shouldn't have to jump through hoops to simply note that he has detractors. Since it was made too hard for me to make that simple statement, I've given up. From what I can tell, simply deleting someone's text is against Wikipedia policy, and that's what was done. Go look at the text, which is quoted above. Pretty straightforward: "Detractors say X". That doesn't mean I should have to justify X. You can iterate all you like, I don't like getting screwed. GregLindahl
I don't think that supporters of his linguistic ideas are mainly 'radicals and anarchists'. -- Taw
I took that last to refer to his politics, not his linguistics. I'll reword. -- Koyaanis Qatsi
Well yes, not to be difficult, Chomsky's linguistics are considered radical by some, since I am one and I consider them radical. What I meant was, regardless of what I personally think, what was the reaction among people qualified to debate the subject matter (I am not one of those people)? I'd love to hear about it; I didn't know he had faced allegations of "junk science" in his methodology; I just remember it started some "Chomskyan revolution" in linguistics. Personally I find his methodology in his political writings both sound and exhaustively documented, but I do not think wikipedia should be a collection of KQ's personal opinions, especially in areas I'm not an expert, so I didn't add that to the article. Why can't we address the controversy around his work the same as all the other controversies: present all the arguments, complete with citations of who says what? Sorry I haven't been plugged in lately; I've been swamped with schoolwork. Sorry also if we've gone over this elsewhere. -- Koyaanis Qatsi
Greg, where does the quote "Chomsky the Freud of linguistics" come from? Google doesn't show it. --AxelBoldt
And seeing your concurrent contribution about the critics... perhaps the problem is that "some" is too general? Who? Where? Why? I work in the academic field; you could as well put my opinion up and cite it as "some say".... You see? I'm not trying to be difficult, just I prefer precision when possible. Beau regards, -- Koyaanis Qatsi
You should provide some examples of (preferably well-known) scientists attacking TG for being pseudo-science (not merely false, that can happen to all good scientific theories) before writing this. Anyway I think that even undeleted statement exaggerates controversy around transformational grammar - It was basis of work of many linguists in 1960s and 1970s (well, I don't know what's going on in linguistics now too well), many of them no one would dare to call pseudoscientists. -- Taw
So I can't even mention that the argument exists? That isn't Wikipedia policy; you should not delete people's words for this reason. GregLindahl
OK, Taw, I understand NPOV, and I disagree with you deleting my words. I'd happily bet you $10 that if you asked ANY professional linguist if anyone in the field feels Chomsky is pseudoscientific, they would say "yes". But if you find that so unbelievable, and feel so strongly about anything that YOU don't feel is sufficiently proven, then go ahead and delete my words. Hell, delete anything you want. It's an anarchy, and you're armed and dangerous. I'm not going to cooperate with someone who begins by deleting other people's words. You've appointed yourself King. Enjoy it. GregLindahl
How is his name pronounced? can someone add this? --Alan D (BTW, in "programming languages" in school, We had a textbook that proclaimed that his work on formal grammars were far more useful to computer languages, and of questionable use in natural language--tee hee!)
well, did chomsky, who was a linguist, create the notation we use, in like 1957 for natural languages or computer languages? --alan d
I am not a linguist, and I am hardly qualified to write an article on this topic, but I remember studying transformational grammars in my college linguistic class years ago, and thinking to myself, my God, this seems like such a kludge. He creates this nice formal grammar, and when he finds out that it doesn't actually describe real world languages that humans actually speak, he does a little presto magic (pay no attention to the man behind the curtain), and "transforms" the sentences to fit them into real world syntax. The whole process struck me as the linguistic version of pre-Copernican epicycles, where all sorts of magic had to be done to make the geocentric system work. Then again, I am not a linguist, so what do I know? Still, I have often wondered since then how other linguists react to his theories, since in my linguistics class it was basically just taught as a factual description of human language.
Well, I got a degree in linguistics from a department noted as being anti-Chomskyist, and although I spent as little time as possible on theory, I can state that anti-Chomskyist linguists focus specifically on Chomsky's fondness for proof-by-vigorous-handwaving. This is pretty much the same as criticism of an abandonment of empiricism and an almost sensationalist approach to theory.
In my opinion, one of the reasons that Chomsky's theories are so attractive to many is that they have much wider implications than those of his opponents. Greenberg's theory of universals carefully confines itself to description of observable phenomena (i.e. "most relative clauses are head-initial"), and thus offers almost no insight into how the mind works. Chomsky's assertions about the innate nature of language, however, are something that the cognitive-studies crowd can grab and run with, no matter whether they're verifiable or not.
Caveat: I also consider most of Chomsky's political writings to be propaganda of the Big Lie variety. In my opinion, his reasoning appears sound until you check his sources. I might agree with some of his points, but don't trust him farther than I could spit him.
What are some of the sources for the anti-Semitism paragraphs? I am dubious on several points but not firm enough to make corrections. I believe he never denied authorizing the essay, simply told him he could do whatever he wanted with it. Also I doubt Chomsky has supporters amoung anti-Semites, considering his background. - Eean
Chomsky has worked to a small degree with with anti-Semitic Holocaust deniers; see the below websites for documentation. He also has a temper: As Harvard Professor Alan Dershowitz and other witnesses have seen in public, he even will physically assault people who confront him with his own words. (see Dershowitz's new article on this topc.)
Many journalists have proven that Chomsky does repeatedly work with neo-Nazi anti-Semites. Chomsky's only defense is that is of Jewish descent and therefore, he claims, he cannot be an anti-Semite. Obviously, however, that argument is ludicrous. There have historically been many Jewish anti-Semites; some self-hating Jews worked in the Nazi army during World War II, and a Ku Klux Klansman in the US committed suicide when it was discovered that he was actually a Jew. (A recent movie, "The Believer", was inspired this case.) Curiously, gentiles still accept the myth that no Jew can be an anti-Semite, but no one in the Jewish community believes it.
Here is some documentation of Chomsky's collusion with neo-Nazi Holocaust deniers. http://www.frontpagemag.com/guestcolumnists/cohnpamph09-11-01.htm http://www.wernercohn.com/Chomskydocs.html
Neo-Nazi Holocaust deniers and anti-Semites warmly embrace Noam Chomsky. The notorious crypto-nazi organization, CODOH, parades Chomsky as their house Jew.
http://www.codoh.com/newrevoices/nros/nrosgobad.html
Other Nazi sites which embrace Chomsky include: http://www.zundelsite.org/english/debate/062_jam.html
The two websites cited above don't seem to say what the poster says they do. The first site has as many anti-Chomsky links as pro (I think, it is the devil to navigate). The second site complains, to paraphrase, that Chomsky is "too intelligent not to be one of us, but too chicken to admit it." It's obvious that the anti-Semites would love to claim Chomsky, but even they think there is something fishy about him, well, I think there's something fishy about him too, but these sites don't prove anything. Ortolan88
Also, the name of Chomsky's political views is anarcho-syndicalism, which he has called himself many times. Social anarchism, if it even exists, is something else. Whoever wrote that section doesn't seem to have read much about Chomsky. -- a different RK
Chomsky and Khmer Rouge:
After the Cataclysm, Postwar Indochina and the Reconstruction of Imperial Ideology by Noam Chomsky, Edward S. Herman
Not exactly an academic source, but the Amazon discussion of the book is long and interesting.
See also The Khmer Rouge Canon 1975-1979: The Standard Total Academic View on Cambodia, somebody's honors thesis including a whole chapter on Chomsky.
I just briefly looked at it and wow talk about hostility!! Sophal Ear has managed to integrate an impressive amount of insults into her arguments. I could take lessons from hir!
I really like Chomsky, because of his contributions to linguistics which have a bearing on natural language understanding and artificial intelligence. I've even met his son while I was studying at Harvard. However, I am distressed by his veering political views -- which I sharply disagree with.
Our task, nonetheless, is to present Chomsky from the NPOV not because neutrality is the position we all must take -- far from it! we all have sides -- but because the only way to for the Wikipedia to be free AND successful is to require NPOV articles. (I'm not too good at that, but I'm learning :-)
That said, how about someone talking about Time flies like an arrow and the ambiguity inherent in that sentence? Does time metaphorically fly? Or do flies of the "time" variety like arrows? Ed Poor, Friday, May 24, 2002
Why the beliefs of the American Jewish community are irrelevant;
[RK claimed that the conditions I imposed for proving Chomsky is an anti-semite were impossible to meet even for proven anti-semites]
Hardly. All you have to do is find a small group of people who do not a priori hate Chomsky and agree that he is an anti-Semite. Since Chomsky is an extreme left-winger, that excludes all right-wingers. Since his books viciously attack propaganda, this excludes both the American government and the American Jewish Congress. Since he attacks US foreign policy and US institutions, that excludes any "patriotic" American. Who do you have left? Only a few billion people. Take your pick.
You could easily support your argument by looking at what European Jewish populations think. But you won't because you have nothing to gain and everything to lose from it. Far better to grandstand and talk about the American Jewish community as if it were "the Jewish community". I'm betting that left-wing Israelis don't regard Chomsky as an anti-Semite (and by "left-wing", I don't mean members of the Israeli Labor party).
But let's look at why it's extremely unlikely that Chomsky is an anti-Semite (except in the twisted minds of a propagandized population). First, Chomsky is a scholar. And a damn good scholar. That means that his belief system is likely to be consistent. Second, Chomsky is an extreme left-winger. What does that mean? It means he's unlikely to support right-wing attitudes like racism, prejudice and bigotry. Third, he is an anarchist. What does that mean? It means he's unlikely to support human rights violations of any kind (whether committed by Israel or against it). Taken together, this means that it is extremely unlikely that Chomsky is an anti-Semite; it would contradict all the previous points. And needless to say, none of these arguments apply to David Duke.
Let's look even further. Chomsky has already given full explanations for his actions, beliefs and other people's misperceptions of him (especially people who haven't read a single thing he wrote but go on rumor and hearsay). Actually, he never explains his enemy's actions explicitly but they are easily understood if one understands his Propaganda Model for the USA. This propaganda model is itself supported by massive evidence inside and outside of Chomsky's books. So there exists an entirely reasonable explanation for the American Jewish community's hatred of Chomsky which has jack squat to do with any actual anti-Semitism on his part. You need extraordinary evidence because you have to 1) disprove the reasonable explanation (of vicious propaganda), and 2) prove the unreasonable explanation (of Chomsky as an inconsistent, unprincipled anti-Semite).
Until you've passed this test, you can't include "the American Jewish community thinks Chomsky is an anti-semite" while giving the impression that they're unbiased, knowledgeable observers. -- ark
This is incorrect. Chomsky discusses (ad nauseum) US support for human rights violators. Necessarily, he has criticized human rights violators in non-democracies from (the former military dictators of) Argentina and Chile to Indonesia to Saudi Arabia and Kuwait etc. He also criticizes human rights violations by Israel, Turkey, and many others, some democracies, some not, some nominally so. The common thread has nothing to do with democracy; it is that he spends all his time condemning the official friends of the United States and very little condemning the official enemies. He does condemn, often only in passing, human rights abuses by groups like the PLO, the NVA, and the Soviet Union (actually, he spends a fair amount of time on Marxism-Leninism). The article now reflects this.
The phrase "opposition to the concept of a Jewish state" is more accurate. First, his opposition is not absolute; he very often talks favorably about two-state solutions which involve a Jewish state. So we're left with the difference between "the rights of Jews to have a state of their own" and "the concept of a Jewish state". The first phrase presupposes that Jews have a right to "a state of their own", but this is precisely what Chomsky is arguing against: the idea of a state designated specifically for one nationality. It's inappropriate to phrase Chomsky's opposition in a manner that prejudges him to be incorrect.
I have rewritten this portion to try to make it clear Horowitz is not typical of Chomsky's critics.
On wikipedia, we've been referring to the anarchist views Noam Chomsky holds as "libertarian socialist" in order to disambiguate them from anarcho-capitalists and individualist anarchists, who also claim the word anarchism. Therefore, saying that chomsky's views have been classified "variously" as anarchist or libertarian socialist is inaccurate; the two are different names for the same thing. Also, it's important to retain the "broadly" becuase there are some anarchist orthodoxies and Chomsky doesn't always agree with them. (Or at least he doesn't go around making a show of agreeing with them...)
Dan, thanks for adding the following:
It explains something I always found bewildering. Ed Poor
OK, the contents of "Noam Chomsky and alleged anti-semitism" have been moved here. It looks like that article was originally taken from this one and moved to a spot of its own. Does anybody know why this was done? To me it seems strange that one would do that. -- Camembert
Or, heck, maybe we could simply integrate this material into this page. The main thing I'm concerned about is that large chunks of that material will get simply deleted. That material is there mainly because it's what's necessary to represent all sides of the debate accurately. If for a while this article is heavy on charges of anti-semitism, et cetera, then I'll try to add some other stuff to it, biographical info or something. DanKeshet
Should the link to http://www.oswaldmosley.com/people/chomsky.html have a warning? It is a prety extreme group!
When I read Chomsky's books I got the impression that he was not anti-government, but wanted a government which represented the people rather than big business. This differs from what I associate with Libertarian socialism, and the Wikipedia definition. Does the link to Libertarian socialism imply beliefs that Chomsky does not hold? Chris Q
I think we got rid of the Making Fun of Brittanica page, so, I'll leave this bit here. The Columbia Encyclopedia article on Chomsky lists "Some Concepts and Consequences of the Theory of Government and Binding (1982)" as one of Chomsky's political works. I immediately looked for the "edit" link so I could explain that that's a linguistic work with a seperate meaning of the word government. I couldn't find the edit link. :) DanKeshet
An anonymous contributor added the sentence "This is consistent with anarchist ideals" to the end, but I can not understand from the phrasing and placement whether this was intended to mean "Chomsky's views are consistent with anarchist ideals," which I agree with, but seems irrelevant to me. (Indeed, the whole point of including Chomsky's dig at holocaust-exploiters seems to be to make cheap points, not to inform the reader.) The other way it could be interpreted would be that the central doctrine referred to in the previous sentence is consisten with anarchist ideals, which is inaccurate. DanKeshet 20:55 Nov 29, 2002 (UTC)