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No reason AYP needs to stand alone as separate articles. Its a No Child Left Behind specific metric and term. 05:00,\2006 (UTC)
From Kevin Haefelin 03/01/07 I have never seen such a dumb piece of legislature. I was born in Switzerland, therefore, I speak French, German, and Italian. However since I came to the U.S. I learned English and speak fluently. Because of the "No Child Left Behind Act of 2001", my school made me take the same dumb ESL ("ELDA") test three times. It is a test for people with English as a second language and the federal government requires students, in the same case than myslef, to take this test. But I already speak English guys!!!
Hey this program came from my old elementary school No Child Gets Ahead
However, problems occur when 3rd grade children who can only read at 1st grade level are not allowed to read 1st grade level books, or even second grade level books, and are required to read 3rd grade level books. They never get ahead. AND they never will
No Child Left Behind sets expectations and measures students but fails to provide a process to give the best result.
Go to your school district and ask the following questions: 1. When does math class tracking begin? (In my district, it was after 5th grade.) 2. What is the difference in the tracks? (In my district, the difference is that in 6th grade, the top track gets the same curriculum at the same rate as the low track. But, it is taught for conceptual understanding and includes activities that promote higher order thinking. Only top track 6th graders can take the advanced 7th grade math classes. Advanced 7th grade covers 7th and 8th grade topics. Only students who took advanced 7th grade math are eligible for 8th grade algebra. Only students who take 8th grade algebra can take Advanced Placement and Honors math classes in high school. Teachers tell me it is nearly impossible for students to go up a track.) 3. What criteria do teachers use for deciding placement in the top track of math? (In my district, they have no criteria. Every teacher decides based on what they think is the best way to make this decision. Most of the 5th grade teachers making this decision do not like math, didn't take much math, and have no idea that they are deciding who can eventually be prepared for careers that require math and science.) 4. Look at the racial make up of who gets tracked high after 5th grade (or whenever your district begins tracking), compared with who was high scoring and academically successful in math up to that point. (In my district, of the equally highest scoring students, about 98% of the Asian, 70% of the White, 40% of the Black, and 20% of the Hispanic students were tracked high. This was of the equally high scoring students. By high school, very few non-Asian minorities are taking advanced math or science classes. So, are you saying...wait,...who is having to wait while people catch up? What is that about? Go to your school system and ask these questions. We are creating the achievement gap. You are correct. Research shows that once we track these kids low for several years, they won't ever catch up. You're right. They never will.
People can argue otherwise, but anyone familiar with the public school system or who has actually spoken or participated will tell you the problems. Success rarely comes from the Left Behind Program. It comes more frequently from school districts who have innovative principals and teachers blessed with active and involved parents. No Child Left Behind just takes credit for their work. Then it dodges responsibility where schools are failing.
The reality is that most students are taught to pass the test. No Child Left Behind meets test score expectations much like Enron and WorldCom met Wall Street expecations.
What the education system needs is a complete overhaul and reeavuation of the system. It is still being run under a "Leave It To Beaver" fantasy world born out of the Industrial Revolution trying to uniformly indoctrinate children in an assembly line fashion.
Adults are terrified of the potential that todays children are offered through computers and electronic media. Emotion stimulates memory retention and children today can learn through interactive video games and movies a terrifying amount of information that their parents had to extract from tattered textbooks and inaccurate encyclopedias.
Take Wikipedia as an example. Rather than take a one dimensional view of the American Revolution, a student can begin reading a synopsis of the American Revolution and then delve into the biographies and histories of the characters and events simply by clicking the embedded links.
Students can take math tests in video game fashion with instant individual grade feedback.
Through the internet, students can study reading and math, the foundations of every other science, as applied to their current interest.
But No Child Left Behind does not provide for an innovative process. It does not provide tools.
It merely says "We expect A's!" and then takes credit when they occur. But it does nothing.
So when No Child Left Behind is exposed like Enron and Iraq's WMD's, let us not say we were surprised.
The Arguments sections have become markedly out of balance over the months, due presumably to the enthusiasm of those critical of NCLB, casting a shadow on the article's aspiration toward NPOV. -- 66.166.183.7
Both of these sections seem a little strange to me but I'll admit that I'm new to Wikipedia. My concern is that both sections seem like statements of opinion rather than statements of fact. For instance this line: "The schools that need help the most are punished instead of given more funding as additional funding is often denied or at most minimized." is absolutely false. Schools that are identified as needing improvement actually receive more money then schools who make AYP. Are these suppose to be opinion sections or do the same neutral point of view and source rules apply?
Answer: I am pretty sure that they are the most common arguments made for or against the act, so they don't have to be true. I'm sure some of the arguments for it are also false. ;) -- 69.132.183.189 19:35, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
That was a kinda ugly redo of the intro, but it's better. If it's still there later, I'll redo it. - Elliott Shultz 17:56, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I think the sentence "This law attempts to improve the performance of America's primary and secondary schools by increasing the the standards of accountability for states, school districts, and schools, as well as providing parents more flexibility in choosing which schools their children will attend" should maybe be changed. Some people believe that the law is not attempting to improve the performance of schools, but is an attemt to destroy the public school system, thus destroying vestiges of socialism in socieity which the Republican party has vocally disliked. I'm not saying it should say that, as that's a rather partisan view, but it shouldn't outright state what their motives are when we, of course, do not knows the motives behind the bill, only what the Bush administration says the motives behind the bill are. So maybe it should be changed this "This law claims to attempt to" or something. - Aerothorn 01:18, May 8, 2004 (UTC)
I was sitting at a diner discussing this with my friends. I mean, the evidence is in Rod Paige's history that he wished to eliminate the national department of eductation. Same with Ronald Regan. Now, this is a theory, and also an argument for/against, i mean, it depends on your political viewpoint on the desire to eliminate the department of education. According to some of my teacher/administrator friends, because of the good special education programs they have, some of the top schools in the area they work at fail and start losing funding because of their failing. they also told me that within 8 years, every single school in the wealthy western suburbs of chicago will be failing the standard. therefore after a certain period of time, they won't recieve federal funding, and if 80% of schools in the nation go that way (like many suburban communities do i've heard also from friends in new york, wisconsin, and the D.C. Metro area) then, they might as well nix federal funding for all school and abolish the department of education. if you concur that that is a possibility and could be ladled into this entry then, (and just because i word it to sound like it's a bad thing, doesn't mean it's a bad thing, it's a very conservative ideal obviously for states rights and less national control, it's just not my idea), then concur... (statement follows)
-- Evesummernight 22:05, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
What bothers me about it is it's turned what were once classes about, say, English, into year-long test-coaching sessions. —
Casey J. Morris 03:55, Jun 27, 2005 (UTC)
I've just discovered wikipedia, so I'm still feeling my way around. I am however, familiar with NCLB, and have a few suggestions.
First, in the main article, I would consider adding to the end of the first paragraph a sentance or two about the basis of NCLB. Such as:
The No Child Left Behind Act is based primarily on the reform strategies instituted by President Bush during his tenure as governor of Texas. These reforms dubbed "The Texas Miracle" have come into question in Texas where allegations have surfaced that schools were manipulating data to improve their results.
I would also suggest that in advance of the arguements for and against, major requirements of the law be listed then list the pro's and con's. Here are some of the major requirements.
- All student's progress will be measured annually in reading/language arts and math in grades 3 through 8 and at least once during high school. By the end of the 2007-2008 school year, testing will also be conducted in science once during grades 3-5, 6-9, and 10-12.
- Provides support for parents by requiring that states and school districts issue detailed report cards on the status of schools and districts. Under the law, parents must also be informed when their child is being taught by a teacher who does not meet "highly qualified" status. Schools are also required to include and involve parents in the school planning.
- Schools receiving Title I funds that do not meet "adequate yearly progress" requirements for a two consecutive years will be required to institute school choice allowing eligible children to transfer to higher performing schools. If the school does not meet targets the next year, supplemental educational services such as tutoring and after school programs must also be offered. If the school continues in "in need of improvement" status it will be required to take corrective action uch as removing relevant staff, implementing new curriculum, decreasing management authority, appointing outside experts to advise the school, extending the length of the school day or year or restructuring the school's internal organization.
- Schools are required to use "scientifically based" strategies.
Please note: I have deliberately not used the term "failing" as the 4th argument for does in the article. The U.S. Dept. of Education has been very clear that schools are not deemed "failing" when they do not make AYP and that they do not want that term used. Education Week
I'd love to get more help on this topic from teachers and admins -- DennisDaniels 02:56, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I'd like to see a more exhaustive and detailed explanation of what the law requires and provides. Also, the arguments for/against sections need to be more thoroughly explained and documented, so it's clear that the bullet points are statements of positions in the ongoing debate, not facts. Finally, a section on the political controversy should be added, since the fate of NCLB is perhaps the key education issue in the U.S. presidential race. I'll be coming back to work on this more when I'm not at my ed-reform job. :-) -- Lottelita 22:57, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Here is a link to some of Ron Paul's discussion of the federal control fears deriving from the NCLB voucher provisions:
Here is a quote from that document: "In other words, parents can choose any school they want as long as the school teaches the government approved curriculum so the students can pass the government approved test. "
John Kerry, in his 100 day plan to change America, gives reality to these fears of increased federalization, with his mandatory public service for high school graduation proposal. See [talk:Revival of the draft] for more links to documentation.-- Silverback 08:32, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I cut this from the article, but it could be repaired and put back:
Is there an article on the Texas Miracle? Did student achievement go up (or even up spectacularly), as the term miracle would imply?
The weasel words "evidence suggests" are no substitute for attributing the POV of the advocates who oppose NCLB for duplicating the 'duplicity' of Texas Miracle. We should identify these advocates, or omit the criticism altogether. Perhaps the unsigned contributor above knows whose POV this is.
Many people have ideas about what is "best" for children's education. And even among those who agree that the focus should be on the "Three R's" there is heated disagreement on HOW children should be taught to read, write, and do arithmetic.
As an engineer who values clear and accurate communication along with honest reporting on problems and attempted solutions, I have a Point of View (POV) in this controversy, but I will try hard to distinguish between "objective reality" and my own POV. --user:Ed Poor (talk) 18:43, Nov 30, 2004 (UTC)
The idea that any system which produces unequal results must necessarily be "unfair", informs much of the ethical arguments about education (as well as employment). This bleeds over into the affirmative action controversy.
Please help me distinguish between the ideas of Stephen Covey and Sun Myung Moon, who emphasize personal responsibility -- and other ideas such as " equal opportunity should result in equal outcomes". As a Covey fan and Moon follower, I am so wedded to their ideas that it might blind me to my biases. I'll think, "Of course it's true that students who apply themselves will get better grades than dunces who watch TV all afternoon."
I think a good teacher will set strict standards, explain the concepts in a way children can understand, and do their best to make education enjoyable. Bad teachers, i.e., those who cannot or will not do these things, should be paid less or, better, fired.
Parents who complain that their kids "aren't learning" should first examine their own child-rearing methods. Do they require their children to do homework before goofing off? Do they reward diligence and achievement? --user:Ed Poor (talk) 18:54, Nov 30, 2004 (UTC)
I was the contributor who originally suggested that content. In regards to evidence concerning the duplicity of the "Texas Miracle" I included a link in my original suggestion to a CBS article on the questionable drop out statistics reported by the Houston Independent School District (which by the way is where Secretary of Education Rod Paige was Superintendent and where many of the reforms within NCLB sprang from)
The article reports on the findings of Robert Kimball, an assistant principal at Sharpstown High School in Houston, who took a closer look at his schools drop out statistics when he noticed that "his school claimed that no students – not a single one – had dropped out in 2001-2002."
The article further goes on to say:
"Investigators checked half of the city’s regular high schools. They reviewed the records of nearly 5,500 students who left those schools, and checked how the schools explained it. They found that almost 3,000 students should have been, but weren’t, coded as dropouts. The audit substantiated Kimball’s allegations."
Here is a second article from MSNBC that looks at the drop out rates at Austin High School (also in Houston) where the article explains that "during a decade in which, routinely, as many as half of Austin students failed to graduate, the school’s reported dropout rate fell from 14.4 percent to 0.3 percent."
The same article goes on to describe how achievement on the 10th grade math exam skyrocketed from 26 percent passing in 1995 when Paige became superintendent to 99 percent in 2001 when he left the district.
Weaker students are held back in 9th grade. After two or more years in 9th grade those students are then moved up to 12th grade therefore skipping the test altogether.
So I guess I could have left out the "evidence suggests" and just plain said they lied, but I was trying to be impartial and let the reader decide for themselves the value of the evidence.
I could continue by pointing out similar concerns regarding the reporting of school violence and investigations underway in Houston and Dallas regarding what can only be described as blatant cheating on the TAKS exams.
This is listed in the "arguments against":
I see this as an NPOV issue, because this point could clearly be an argument for or against; the article as it currently stands displays a bias in opposition to privatization.
~ Booyabazooka 02:20, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
How about a link to a page that describes what "Title I" is?
There appears to be some disagreement about how the section about access to military recruiters (in "Arguments Against") should be worded. I argue, based upon [2] and my understanding of the law as an educator, that it is misleading to state that schools are required to provide only that access which they provide to other institutions of higher learning, and in fact that many schools do not provide any comprehensive list of their students to colleges and universities. Cultofpj disagrees (and he can probably summarize his reasoning better than I can). Any third-party thoughts? ESkog 2 July 2005 08:05 (UTC)
Here is the exact wording from the law: [3] SEC. 9528. ARMED FORCES RECRUITER ACCESS TO STUDENTS AND STUDENT RECRUITING INFORMATION. (a) POLICY- (1) ACCESS TO STUDENT RECRUITING INFORMATION- Notwithstanding section 444(a)(5)(B) of the General Education Provisions Act and except as provided in paragraph (2), each local educational agency receiving assistance under this Act shall provide, on a request made by military recruiters or an institution of higher education, access to secondary school students names, addresses, and telephone listings. (2) CONSENT- A secondary school student or the parent of the student may request that the student's name, address, and telephone listing described in paragraph (1) not be released without prior written parental consent, and the local educational agency or private school shall notify parents of the option to make a request and shall comply with any request. (3) SAME ACCESS TO STUDENTS- Each local educational agency receiving assistance under this Act shall provide military recruiters the same access to secondary school students as is provided generally to post secondary educational institutions or to prospective employers of those students.
Thanks for offering to resolve this on the talk page. Cultofpj 4 July 2005 16:55 (UTC)
And this, I believe, is incorrect:
It's proven?
Also likely incorrect, since the law places an emphasis on special education improvement:
Does it "remove funding"?
Thanks for helping me sort this out, in advance. Rkevins82 05:26, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
I was a special education teacher in Texas whoe retired in 2004 and am somewhat familiar with to provisions of NCLB re special education. Prior to NCLB, speced students could taken a State Developed Alternative Assessment in lieu of the TAKS test the regular students took. SDAA is available in a variety of grade levels and a speced student could take the test at whatever level was deemed appropriate. When NCLB is fully implemented, they will have to take the same test as regular students, at the same grade level. Also, students could, if part of the Individual Education Plan, receive various types of assistance, such as having the test read to them, which will not be allowed under NCLB. There was a lot of discussion at the time of the conflict between existing laws/regulations regarding speced modifications and NCLB, which basically says that all students will acheive the same results.
To be fair, I should point out that there has been the preception, at least, that schools were guilty of placing students in special ed inappropriately in order to make apparent gains in test results. Wschart 14:43, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Certainly our President was well aware of the popular series of books and movies when he named this program. Do you think it was an intentional "codeword" to equate educating children with soul-saving? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Themeparkphoto ( talk • contribs) 15:51, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
There are easily twice the number of "cons" as "pros" listed for NCLB. I don't know what the other pros are, but I'm sure they exist, and we should list them. 12.17.189.77 01:45, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
It would also help to attribute all of the pros and cons to the people who have advanced these arguments. I'll see what I can find. Lottelita 17:22, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
I had never thought of it that way, but since you mention it, that is almost certainly the case. It would be nice to imagine that there might be some way to assure that ALL school children actually "EVOLVE" from school year to school year, becoming more and more intellectually and academically superior, without limit, until finally, after 10 years of NCLB, we finally obtain the perfection of the ULTIMATE SOVIET üBERMAN. I wonder how many morons in this administration, actually believe this is going to happen? What NCLB really is for, just to penalize teachers for the shortcomings of their students, to provide an excuse to take federal money out of education and transfer funding to the military. 70.106.60.44
There should be something in the article about how a school can be doing overall very well, but if a very small number of students in a particular group are not improving every year, then the whole school can be labeled as failing. Also, how the act creates incentives not to count students as being "dropouts". AnonMoos 15:01, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
{{
cite press release}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)Rkevins82 04:00, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
NCLB does not have the effect of "restricting collective bargaining rights" in most districts. Rather, it allows for creation of charter schools--which tend not to be unionized due to the free choice of staffers who vote to remain out of the unions. So let's be fair in stating proponents' case and not use opponent-type arguments for both sides. (ChulaOne 14 July 2006)
Is there any point to adding a section covering how this might be seen as a violation of the 10th amendment?
Education has been a state/local area of concedrn because it is not mentioned in the constitution.
--flyingember
As many have noted on this talk page, the pros and cons sections are poorly referenced and often redundant, and fail to distinguish between factual and rhetorical claims. I'm wondering if people have suggestions as to how to clean this up and get this to quality standards. I'm gathering references and would like to try to consolidate, but what do others think is the best way to approach this? SlipperyN 12:26, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
I performed the long-suggested merger by redirecting the criticisms page to here. All the content of that page was redundant with the lengthier criticism page here. SlipperyN 22:33, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
In response to Ragnar the Magnificent's neutrality dispute tag, I've added several additional claims made in favor of the act and supporting references. I think it is appropriate to remove the tag or at least point to specific missing pieces and add them, or point them out for others to add. The mere face that there are more arguments in opposition than in favor does not, in and of itself, constitute a neutrality violation. SlipperyN 13:57, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
I propose that this section (found under Aguements against NCLB) be removed. It doesn't pertain to NCLB because nothing in the law directs funds to nonpublic, private, or parochial schools. Cultofpj 23:28, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
A simple Google search finds that it has been implemented in some ways that do violate this tenet: http://www.nsba.org/site/doc_cosa.asp?TRACKID=&CID=1046&DID=32444 Philadelphia wants to use the Catholic archdiocese schools as a school district to send poor-performing children when they must be given a choice of another school. I'll re-add this.-- Gloriamarie 16:51, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
A recent anon addition of all the claims the gov makes in favor of the act seems misplaced to me as they are unsourced. The claims in favor prior to that addition are at least backed up with research, however controversial. But just listing all of the promised advantages of the legislation at length seems unencyclopedic to me. Our focus should be on registering objective and measurable effects of the legislation in question, not just advertising it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Benzocane ( talk • contribs) 17:47, 9 December 2006 (UTC).
This edit is seriously inconsistent with WP:NPOV. Indeed, much of the text is written in a first person style:
We should definitely be studying the effects of these practices. But, high income White parents won't let us put their high achieving children into low track non-rigorous courses, so we can't do a randomized experiment. Fortunately, low income and minority parents have not caught on to what is going on, so we can continue to track their children low. If they do catch on, we will have to make getting more quality math and science teachers a priority. Until then, we simply can't do randomized experiments.
This material is clearly not written from a neutral point of view. John254 01:44, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
I have added a cleanup tag to this article due to poor quality of prose, large sections that lack wiki formatting and a need for NPOV cleanup. szyslak ( t, c, e) 08:19, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Can we put more information about the reauthorization of NCLB in 2007, because we need put information on there, and also, can someone expand this article to feature status so we can give attention to people who don't know about NCLB.-- Jsalims80 23:40, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Hello, I'm new to Wikipedia and I apologize in advance if I'm breaking any rules. Anyway, I thought that another side of the argument needs to be addressed. It is a common opinion within my area (and others!) that the NCLB act may benefit lower level students, but at the same time it penalizes me and other "honors" students, especially in high school and middle school. Within my state and probably within many others, upper level classes are being cut in an attempt to finance NCLB. Higher level language courses, art courses, specialized interest courses, honors courses, and Advanced Placement classes are being cut and less of an effort is being made to challenge and support these children and young adults. Students are being discouraged from taking these courses in favor of less difficult classes in which they will definitely perform well, rather than being challenged. Perhaps this will raise the standards for students of low performance but more advanced teenagers are not being provided with the means to succeed, and are being compromised in an attempt to lessen the academic gap. The NCLB sets expectations and measures students but fails to provide a process to give the best result. Much of the opposition to the NCLB act arises from the fact that it seems to be "dumbing down" advanced students, in addition to the lack of funding (which gives rise to political issues inside the schoolboard which further distracts them from improving our education). 01:01, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
I was trying to figure out where to add the reference to those who criticize the USDOE claims about NAEP, and it seems that *neither* section describing arguments was appropriate. Putting it in the "con" section would distance it from the relevant subject matter earlier, but putting it in "pro" was awkward. I ended up with the "pro," but I think it would be wiser to identify salient questions raised by either proponents, opponents, or those in the middle and addressing the subjects of each with the various arguments. -- SDorn 19:50, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
The majority of this article has POV issues, and the references are poorly syntaxed. Lots of work here for the near future... Also, apologies for not summarizing my edits - bad habit. I added a link to SEAs and created a Reference section for all those homeless citations. - Freechild 14:50, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
According to an article in the New York Times, from 11/26/2006 ("What It Takes to Make a Student"), between 2000 to 2005, poor fourth grade math results moved from 8% to 19% proficient, while black students moved from 5% to 13%, yet white students are at 47%. I find it interesting that the department of education has no self-criticism evident in its NCLB web site. The same NYTimes article observes that while some data was positive in the 2005 batch, other data was disappointing. The Wikipedia article doesn't address the latter. Between 2000 and 2005, black eighth graders proficiency in reading dropped from 13% to 12%, and poor eighth graders proficiency in reading dropped from 17% to 15%. Is this the kind of data that suggests we're on track to eliminate the achievement gap by the deadline proposed by NCLB? Notaslavetofashion 10:04, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
A reference for the reason for the schoolhouses is found in the fifth paragraph of this press release: http://www.ed.gov/news/pressreleases/2002/04/04112002a.html
The structures are temporary and their primary purpose is to protect people coming in and out of the building from falling debris. Factician 15:18, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
The following caption with citation of source is recommended:
A construction project to repair and update the building facade at the Department of Education Headquarters building in 2002 resulted in the installation of structures at all of the entrances to protect employees and visitors from falling debris. ED redesigned these protective structures to promote the " No Child Left Behind Act." The structures are temporary and will be removed in 2007. Source: U.S. Department of Education, http://www.ed.gov/news/pressreleases/2002/04/04112002a.html]]
If no disagreement, I will update the caption in a week or so. Factician 18:00, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Please discuss here of any changes or proposals of deleting this section. Thank you. Coolguy1368 20:14, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
Why is it a president's job to make up new programs? That seems like a committee's job.
This phrasing needs changing: "Because schools, districts, and states view the escalating assistance provided to students as a "punishment" if the school fails to make adequate progress according to the goals they themselves establish, the incentives are to set expectations lower rather than higher." That "escalating assistance" part doesn't ring true when we think about firing teachers and restructuring administration. I'd have changed it myself, but I'm a teacher and therefore strongly biased. Thought I'd bring it up here.
Eceresa
18:06, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Nobody responded, so I changed it.
Eceresa
20:10, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Somebody deleted the "criticism" section, and as I saw no discussion here, I reverted. Seems to me that there are a LOT of very valid criticisms of the law, though as I already mentioned I'm coming from a particular point of view on that. Hopefully there'll be discussion here before anybody else decides to get rid of the criticism. Eceresa 00:37, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm very new here at Wikipedia, so please be kind. I'm likely to mess up somehow in this post. I hope you can bear in mind that at least I went to the discussion section instead of trying to alter the entry directly! :^)
I teach English and ESL at a school that is currently in great danger of being forced to restructure. My school has a large ESL population and about 80% of our students speak a language other than English at home.
I have three criticisms of NCLB that I think are valid and have not appeared in the criticism section of this entry. Two of them have to do with how the law deals with ESL students, and the other with how the law can create difficulties between faculty and in-school administration and downtown administrations.
I realize that my criticisms are probably not written here in a format that would be useable on the official wikipedia entry for NCLB. Maybe someone here can help me with that.
I'm curious which of these criticisms people here might think worthy of addition to the official entry. Personally I feel that #2 is the most damning criticism of NCLB.
Thank you, - Ron ^*^
WerebatRon 00:21, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
Thanks! I agree with you that 1 and 2 are the strongest criticisms. I'm curious how one can criticize anything and remain neutral, but I get the bit about avoiding loaded language. It's difficult to do regarding #2 though. It is the most asinine thing about NCLB that I have yet encountered.
What exactly do you think I should provide citations for? #1 basically concerns something NCLB does NOT address, would a link to the law itself be a reasonable citation or not enough? Would it be better to provide a link to something about L1 literate vs. illiterate learners and the differences between them?
Regarding #2, again this is just something about how the law is written. Maybe an article that mentions this phenomenon?
Thanks, - Ron ^*^
WerebatRon 18:29, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
I cleaned the references in this article in order to develop the section at the end. In doing so, I have identified a number of out-dated links, which I noted, removed, or added citation needed links to. Also, the entire article is poorly referenced. The section of external links at the end should be integrated throughout the article to make the references stronger. - Freechild 18:14, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
I have removed an uncited referance to the act being unconstitutional. An accusation of that magnitude demands a citation from a credible source and should not be left in the article uncited. ( RookZERO 19:18, 10 June 2007 (UTC))
was: Educational Underwriters and before that was: External link to highly questionable organization
Hi.
There is an external link to an organization called Educational Underwriters. I spent some time on the Educational Underwriters website, and there are several things that that seem highly questionable for an organization that claims to be independent and non-profit:
So, they hire a few random PhDs to look over some product's research to rubber stamp it?
I propose that we remove the link to this organization.
Best, Rosmoran 00:11, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Someone posted the following question:
If you would like to contact me on my personal talk page, I can help point you in the right direction. Click here User talk:Rosmoran. When you get to the page, click the tab labed with a + (plus sign) to add a new message. I will respond as soon as I receive the message.
Best, Rosmoran 05:20, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
I didn't see a mention in the Critics' arguments section that most teachers are vehemently opposed to this legislation, as are national and state teachers' unions. This is definitely worth inclusion in the article. (I apologize if I missed this mentioned somewhere else in the article, but it needs to be in that section as well.) I have not yet met a teacher who likes this legislation, for varying reasons.-- Gloriamarie 16:49, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
I am tagging this content as dubious because the organization "Educational Underwriters" lacks notability. The organization is not notable because:
When Educational Underwriters actually begins doing the work their website advertises, and are recognized for doing the work, they may merit mention in Wikipedia.
The following criterion section is taken from
Wikipedia:Notability (organizations and companies):
A company, corporation, organization, team, religion, group, product, or service is notable if it has been the subject of secondary sources. Such sources must be reliable, and independent of the subject. The depth of coverage of the subject by the source must be considered. If the depth of coverage is not substantial, then multiple independent sources should be cited to establish notability. Trivial or incidental coverage of a subject by secondary sources is not sufficient to establish notability. Once notability is established, primary sources may be used to add content. Ultimately, and most importantly, all content must be attributable.
Best, Rosmoran 18:28, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
I have removed the sentence regarding the WWC being a "sole means of review and certification ..." because the WWC does not certify, endorse, or recommend any educational programs or methods.
Here is what the What Works Clearinghouse has to say about this on their website at http://www.whatworks.ed.gov/faq/how_ensure_reports.html:
Deleted text follows:
Initially, vendors were limited to What Works Clearinghouse [1], a division of the U.S. Department of Education, as a sole means of review
Best, Rosmoran 04:52, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Some parents are failing, so the federal government steps in to control more of our lives. Why are the feds doing this? How about states' rights, sovereignty & self-determination? Each state has an education system. Are some doing lousy jobs? Shouldn't those respective voters be able to make the necessary changes? Schools are even more of a local level thing, for each school district.
Scottit 68.180.38.41 06:20, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Actually, there is a section addressing that critique in the article, the Return to Local Control section; feel free to expand it if you wish to do so.-- Gloriamarie 05:35, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Rosmoran recently moved the funding section out of the criticism sections, claiming that it was not a criticism of the act, but rather of the implementation. I see the point but didn't immediately agree with the change. Before I changed it back, however, it occurred to me that it might be better to leave it as a separate section as it seems to give the lack of funding more importance, and while it's still a criticism, it's hard to talk about this subject intelligently without getting critical. Or perhaps it should be folded back into "criticism." I don't know. That's why I'm asking for discussion here. Eceresa 19:59, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Looking at the flow of text on the page, moving the ToC to the right allows the text to continue on the left side of the page, removing the huge gap between the lead section and the next section.
I wouldn't say that the ToC *has* to be on the right. But I like the flow of the article better with the ToC on the right.
Rosmoran 04:11, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
Hi all,
I happened to cross-check one of the criticisms with the source offered (the source being the actual text of the NCLB Act) and I think there is a mistake on our entry: Under the criticism entitled "Facilitates Military Recruitment," the article states that parents do NOT need to be notified when schools release their information to college or military recruiters.
However, in section 9528(a)2. of the NCLB act (entitled "Consent" and linked as source 46 from our entry) it clearly states that parents may request that their children's names not be released, and that the educational agency must notify them of the option to make this request, and they must comply with this request if made.
Doesn't this amount to notification of release of information? Seems to me that if parents must be notified of the choice and schools must abide by that choice, then schools are not authorized and certainly not required to provide any of the information to any recruiters without parental consent. Either way, the section should be amended to include this delineation because as it is worded now I think it is a bit of a misrepresentation of the actual text of the law.
PS. I'm new to contributing so if there's something I should have done better please let me know. LGDubs 23:22, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
Hi,
I didn't add this sentence. I don't know if specific states have done this and I don't have sources for the material. But, I do want to point out that states can add more requirements on top of those specified in the federal IDEA legislation. For example, states could require schools to maximize a disabled student's potential, which is not mandated at the federal level. Similarly, there is nothing I know of that would prohibit a state from requiring schools to provide FAPE also to gifted students.
It does seem like they would have to define what FAPE means for these students, though .....
Best, Rosmoran 14:41, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
The citation given is not the journal listed (No Child Left Behind as an Anti-Poverty Measure. Teacher Education Quarterly. Retrieved 3 October 2007). The link is to a personal website: http://susanohanian.org/show_commentary.php?id=473.
Rosmoran 13:27, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
I removed this: , including:
A nonprofit organization Educational Underwriters [12] was founded to provide an avenue for vendors seeking to have material reviewed. dubious – discuss
because a list of external links looks really odd in the middle of an encyclopedia article. My preference is to delete it entirely: it's basically a linkfarm. If you really think that the article needs a list of businesses which sell "scientifically based research" studies, then perhaps it could be put at the very end of the article, in a section labeled "External links." WhatamIdoing ( talk) 01:00, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
The link to the Military Free Zone site that says "reveals some of the darker sides of NCLB" is a POV violation, in my opinion. StaticElectric ( talk) 06:07, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
I only count 48 instances of the exact phrase "scientifically based research," using the cited reference. Just "scientifically based" gives us 97 instances. These counts include all text, including section heads. Do we have a source for the 111 number? WhatamIdoing ( talk) 01:58, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
I counted 69 instances of the phrase "scientifically based research" using the Find function of Adobe Reader. This method was used on the most recent version of NCLB as made available by the Department of Education located at URL ( htttp://www.ed.gov ). The actual URL of the NCLB text is ( http://www.ed.gov/policy/elsec/leg/esea02/107-110.pdf ). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wadehults ( talk • contribs) 02:53, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
This page seems to be getting pretty long, and some of the comments are more than three years old. There aren't very many active discussions at the moment. Should we figure out how to archive the oldest comments in a few days? (Must be the end of the calendar year -- I feel like cleaning house.) WhatamIdoing ( talk) 19:35, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Being on Wiki for a long time and reading articles and talk pages I see the same problem over and over again with subjects that are controversial. Of course first the NPOV gets thrown away and the talk page turns into a discussion of who's right and who's wrong. This is, imho, ruining wiki of what it could be.
Okay I could be wrong but when I or anyone looking for information on any given subject come to a page, wanting to read the facts, not someone's opinions. I'm starting to wonder, just like trivia, if a criticism sections needs to go on all wiki pages. Same thing with pro or for pages. What does this have to do with information on any given subject? I think a better way to do it, in cases like this page laying out what the act is, what it has accomplished, what it hasn't and be done with it. And all those sections be sourced.
I don't get how people think using a wiki page for an agenda will work, especially if you are opinionating and not making factual statements. When the truth comes out it's going to hinder those with agenda specific mindsets.
I know I'm probably talking to the wall. Specifically on this page I think it would be good to get rid of the claims sections and replace them with info that shows where it works or where it doesn't with sourced information. Seperate the organization against to a brief paragraph with link to the wiki article on that group.
But I know this is a lot to ask for because then we would just have the facts laid out and no one would be able to push a for or against agenda. OfficialDoughboy ( talk) 15:28, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
Is there really a significant number of people who pronounce "NCLB" as "Nickelby"? Because that's what the pronuncisation note in the first line of this article says. 69.7.203.153 ( talk) 20:52, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
I was under the impression that "100% compliance" had been officially redefined so that it wasn't 100%. Specifically, this regulation appears to exempt the bottom 1% of students (which pretty much means anyone with significant intellectual disabilities, but none of the kids with mild dyslexia). WhatamIdoing ( talk) 05:57, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Somebody knows if a child from private school can attend ESL program in the public, since we pay same taxes? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.38.88.123 ( talk) 18:21, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
The citation to the following quote -- "schools have been shown to exclude minorities or other groups (to enhance apparent school performance; as many as 2 million students)" -- has expired and needs to be updated or should be deleted. I searched Internet Archive and google and only found wiki-related citations to it, not the full text. Jd147703 ( talk) 14:32, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Re: Virginia ESL students taking a different test than others -- I don't know what they're doing in Virginia, but as an ESL/LEP teacher in Rhode Island I can assure you that there is no "special test" here than the ESL/LEP students are allowed to take. They have to take the NECAP, the same as everyone else. Don't get me started on the population redefinition and mathematical games they play in order to make it look like our ESL population is making Adequate Yearly Progress, either. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.109.46.151 ( talk) 15:50, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
I removed the second sentence from the "incentives against low-performing students" section, as the cited source was invalid. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.65.112.82 ( talk) 00:57, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
Is there really a significant number of people who pronounce "NCLB" as "Nickelby"? Because that's what the pronuncisation note in the first line of this article says. 69.7.203.153 ( talk) 20:52, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
As a member of the education industry, I can tell you from personal experience that I have heard it pronounced that way. Of course this is only anecdotal evidence, but, you asked. :) Macduffman ( talk) 19:33, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
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No reason AYP needs to stand alone as separate articles. Its a No Child Left Behind specific metric and term. 05:00,\2006 (UTC)
From Kevin Haefelin 03/01/07 I have never seen such a dumb piece of legislature. I was born in Switzerland, therefore, I speak French, German, and Italian. However since I came to the U.S. I learned English and speak fluently. Because of the "No Child Left Behind Act of 2001", my school made me take the same dumb ESL ("ELDA") test three times. It is a test for people with English as a second language and the federal government requires students, in the same case than myslef, to take this test. But I already speak English guys!!!
Hey this program came from my old elementary school No Child Gets Ahead
However, problems occur when 3rd grade children who can only read at 1st grade level are not allowed to read 1st grade level books, or even second grade level books, and are required to read 3rd grade level books. They never get ahead. AND they never will
No Child Left Behind sets expectations and measures students but fails to provide a process to give the best result.
Go to your school district and ask the following questions: 1. When does math class tracking begin? (In my district, it was after 5th grade.) 2. What is the difference in the tracks? (In my district, the difference is that in 6th grade, the top track gets the same curriculum at the same rate as the low track. But, it is taught for conceptual understanding and includes activities that promote higher order thinking. Only top track 6th graders can take the advanced 7th grade math classes. Advanced 7th grade covers 7th and 8th grade topics. Only students who took advanced 7th grade math are eligible for 8th grade algebra. Only students who take 8th grade algebra can take Advanced Placement and Honors math classes in high school. Teachers tell me it is nearly impossible for students to go up a track.) 3. What criteria do teachers use for deciding placement in the top track of math? (In my district, they have no criteria. Every teacher decides based on what they think is the best way to make this decision. Most of the 5th grade teachers making this decision do not like math, didn't take much math, and have no idea that they are deciding who can eventually be prepared for careers that require math and science.) 4. Look at the racial make up of who gets tracked high after 5th grade (or whenever your district begins tracking), compared with who was high scoring and academically successful in math up to that point. (In my district, of the equally highest scoring students, about 98% of the Asian, 70% of the White, 40% of the Black, and 20% of the Hispanic students were tracked high. This was of the equally high scoring students. By high school, very few non-Asian minorities are taking advanced math or science classes. So, are you saying...wait,...who is having to wait while people catch up? What is that about? Go to your school system and ask these questions. We are creating the achievement gap. You are correct. Research shows that once we track these kids low for several years, they won't ever catch up. You're right. They never will.
People can argue otherwise, but anyone familiar with the public school system or who has actually spoken or participated will tell you the problems. Success rarely comes from the Left Behind Program. It comes more frequently from school districts who have innovative principals and teachers blessed with active and involved parents. No Child Left Behind just takes credit for their work. Then it dodges responsibility where schools are failing.
The reality is that most students are taught to pass the test. No Child Left Behind meets test score expectations much like Enron and WorldCom met Wall Street expecations.
What the education system needs is a complete overhaul and reeavuation of the system. It is still being run under a "Leave It To Beaver" fantasy world born out of the Industrial Revolution trying to uniformly indoctrinate children in an assembly line fashion.
Adults are terrified of the potential that todays children are offered through computers and electronic media. Emotion stimulates memory retention and children today can learn through interactive video games and movies a terrifying amount of information that their parents had to extract from tattered textbooks and inaccurate encyclopedias.
Take Wikipedia as an example. Rather than take a one dimensional view of the American Revolution, a student can begin reading a synopsis of the American Revolution and then delve into the biographies and histories of the characters and events simply by clicking the embedded links.
Students can take math tests in video game fashion with instant individual grade feedback.
Through the internet, students can study reading and math, the foundations of every other science, as applied to their current interest.
But No Child Left Behind does not provide for an innovative process. It does not provide tools.
It merely says "We expect A's!" and then takes credit when they occur. But it does nothing.
So when No Child Left Behind is exposed like Enron and Iraq's WMD's, let us not say we were surprised.
The Arguments sections have become markedly out of balance over the months, due presumably to the enthusiasm of those critical of NCLB, casting a shadow on the article's aspiration toward NPOV. -- 66.166.183.7
Both of these sections seem a little strange to me but I'll admit that I'm new to Wikipedia. My concern is that both sections seem like statements of opinion rather than statements of fact. For instance this line: "The schools that need help the most are punished instead of given more funding as additional funding is often denied or at most minimized." is absolutely false. Schools that are identified as needing improvement actually receive more money then schools who make AYP. Are these suppose to be opinion sections or do the same neutral point of view and source rules apply?
Answer: I am pretty sure that they are the most common arguments made for or against the act, so they don't have to be true. I'm sure some of the arguments for it are also false. ;) -- 69.132.183.189 19:35, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
That was a kinda ugly redo of the intro, but it's better. If it's still there later, I'll redo it. - Elliott Shultz 17:56, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I think the sentence "This law attempts to improve the performance of America's primary and secondary schools by increasing the the standards of accountability for states, school districts, and schools, as well as providing parents more flexibility in choosing which schools their children will attend" should maybe be changed. Some people believe that the law is not attempting to improve the performance of schools, but is an attemt to destroy the public school system, thus destroying vestiges of socialism in socieity which the Republican party has vocally disliked. I'm not saying it should say that, as that's a rather partisan view, but it shouldn't outright state what their motives are when we, of course, do not knows the motives behind the bill, only what the Bush administration says the motives behind the bill are. So maybe it should be changed this "This law claims to attempt to" or something. - Aerothorn 01:18, May 8, 2004 (UTC)
I was sitting at a diner discussing this with my friends. I mean, the evidence is in Rod Paige's history that he wished to eliminate the national department of eductation. Same with Ronald Regan. Now, this is a theory, and also an argument for/against, i mean, it depends on your political viewpoint on the desire to eliminate the department of education. According to some of my teacher/administrator friends, because of the good special education programs they have, some of the top schools in the area they work at fail and start losing funding because of their failing. they also told me that within 8 years, every single school in the wealthy western suburbs of chicago will be failing the standard. therefore after a certain period of time, they won't recieve federal funding, and if 80% of schools in the nation go that way (like many suburban communities do i've heard also from friends in new york, wisconsin, and the D.C. Metro area) then, they might as well nix federal funding for all school and abolish the department of education. if you concur that that is a possibility and could be ladled into this entry then, (and just because i word it to sound like it's a bad thing, doesn't mean it's a bad thing, it's a very conservative ideal obviously for states rights and less national control, it's just not my idea), then concur... (statement follows)
-- Evesummernight 22:05, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
What bothers me about it is it's turned what were once classes about, say, English, into year-long test-coaching sessions. —
Casey J. Morris 03:55, Jun 27, 2005 (UTC)
I've just discovered wikipedia, so I'm still feeling my way around. I am however, familiar with NCLB, and have a few suggestions.
First, in the main article, I would consider adding to the end of the first paragraph a sentance or two about the basis of NCLB. Such as:
The No Child Left Behind Act is based primarily on the reform strategies instituted by President Bush during his tenure as governor of Texas. These reforms dubbed "The Texas Miracle" have come into question in Texas where allegations have surfaced that schools were manipulating data to improve their results.
I would also suggest that in advance of the arguements for and against, major requirements of the law be listed then list the pro's and con's. Here are some of the major requirements.
- All student's progress will be measured annually in reading/language arts and math in grades 3 through 8 and at least once during high school. By the end of the 2007-2008 school year, testing will also be conducted in science once during grades 3-5, 6-9, and 10-12.
- Provides support for parents by requiring that states and school districts issue detailed report cards on the status of schools and districts. Under the law, parents must also be informed when their child is being taught by a teacher who does not meet "highly qualified" status. Schools are also required to include and involve parents in the school planning.
- Schools receiving Title I funds that do not meet "adequate yearly progress" requirements for a two consecutive years will be required to institute school choice allowing eligible children to transfer to higher performing schools. If the school does not meet targets the next year, supplemental educational services such as tutoring and after school programs must also be offered. If the school continues in "in need of improvement" status it will be required to take corrective action uch as removing relevant staff, implementing new curriculum, decreasing management authority, appointing outside experts to advise the school, extending the length of the school day or year or restructuring the school's internal organization.
- Schools are required to use "scientifically based" strategies.
Please note: I have deliberately not used the term "failing" as the 4th argument for does in the article. The U.S. Dept. of Education has been very clear that schools are not deemed "failing" when they do not make AYP and that they do not want that term used. Education Week
I'd love to get more help on this topic from teachers and admins -- DennisDaniels 02:56, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I'd like to see a more exhaustive and detailed explanation of what the law requires and provides. Also, the arguments for/against sections need to be more thoroughly explained and documented, so it's clear that the bullet points are statements of positions in the ongoing debate, not facts. Finally, a section on the political controversy should be added, since the fate of NCLB is perhaps the key education issue in the U.S. presidential race. I'll be coming back to work on this more when I'm not at my ed-reform job. :-) -- Lottelita 22:57, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Here is a link to some of Ron Paul's discussion of the federal control fears deriving from the NCLB voucher provisions:
Here is a quote from that document: "In other words, parents can choose any school they want as long as the school teaches the government approved curriculum so the students can pass the government approved test. "
John Kerry, in his 100 day plan to change America, gives reality to these fears of increased federalization, with his mandatory public service for high school graduation proposal. See [talk:Revival of the draft] for more links to documentation.-- Silverback 08:32, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I cut this from the article, but it could be repaired and put back:
Is there an article on the Texas Miracle? Did student achievement go up (or even up spectacularly), as the term miracle would imply?
The weasel words "evidence suggests" are no substitute for attributing the POV of the advocates who oppose NCLB for duplicating the 'duplicity' of Texas Miracle. We should identify these advocates, or omit the criticism altogether. Perhaps the unsigned contributor above knows whose POV this is.
Many people have ideas about what is "best" for children's education. And even among those who agree that the focus should be on the "Three R's" there is heated disagreement on HOW children should be taught to read, write, and do arithmetic.
As an engineer who values clear and accurate communication along with honest reporting on problems and attempted solutions, I have a Point of View (POV) in this controversy, but I will try hard to distinguish between "objective reality" and my own POV. --user:Ed Poor (talk) 18:43, Nov 30, 2004 (UTC)
The idea that any system which produces unequal results must necessarily be "unfair", informs much of the ethical arguments about education (as well as employment). This bleeds over into the affirmative action controversy.
Please help me distinguish between the ideas of Stephen Covey and Sun Myung Moon, who emphasize personal responsibility -- and other ideas such as " equal opportunity should result in equal outcomes". As a Covey fan and Moon follower, I am so wedded to their ideas that it might blind me to my biases. I'll think, "Of course it's true that students who apply themselves will get better grades than dunces who watch TV all afternoon."
I think a good teacher will set strict standards, explain the concepts in a way children can understand, and do their best to make education enjoyable. Bad teachers, i.e., those who cannot or will not do these things, should be paid less or, better, fired.
Parents who complain that their kids "aren't learning" should first examine their own child-rearing methods. Do they require their children to do homework before goofing off? Do they reward diligence and achievement? --user:Ed Poor (talk) 18:54, Nov 30, 2004 (UTC)
I was the contributor who originally suggested that content. In regards to evidence concerning the duplicity of the "Texas Miracle" I included a link in my original suggestion to a CBS article on the questionable drop out statistics reported by the Houston Independent School District (which by the way is where Secretary of Education Rod Paige was Superintendent and where many of the reforms within NCLB sprang from)
The article reports on the findings of Robert Kimball, an assistant principal at Sharpstown High School in Houston, who took a closer look at his schools drop out statistics when he noticed that "his school claimed that no students – not a single one – had dropped out in 2001-2002."
The article further goes on to say:
"Investigators checked half of the city’s regular high schools. They reviewed the records of nearly 5,500 students who left those schools, and checked how the schools explained it. They found that almost 3,000 students should have been, but weren’t, coded as dropouts. The audit substantiated Kimball’s allegations."
Here is a second article from MSNBC that looks at the drop out rates at Austin High School (also in Houston) where the article explains that "during a decade in which, routinely, as many as half of Austin students failed to graduate, the school’s reported dropout rate fell from 14.4 percent to 0.3 percent."
The same article goes on to describe how achievement on the 10th grade math exam skyrocketed from 26 percent passing in 1995 when Paige became superintendent to 99 percent in 2001 when he left the district.
Weaker students are held back in 9th grade. After two or more years in 9th grade those students are then moved up to 12th grade therefore skipping the test altogether.
So I guess I could have left out the "evidence suggests" and just plain said they lied, but I was trying to be impartial and let the reader decide for themselves the value of the evidence.
I could continue by pointing out similar concerns regarding the reporting of school violence and investigations underway in Houston and Dallas regarding what can only be described as blatant cheating on the TAKS exams.
This is listed in the "arguments against":
I see this as an NPOV issue, because this point could clearly be an argument for or against; the article as it currently stands displays a bias in opposition to privatization.
~ Booyabazooka 02:20, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
How about a link to a page that describes what "Title I" is?
There appears to be some disagreement about how the section about access to military recruiters (in "Arguments Against") should be worded. I argue, based upon [2] and my understanding of the law as an educator, that it is misleading to state that schools are required to provide only that access which they provide to other institutions of higher learning, and in fact that many schools do not provide any comprehensive list of their students to colleges and universities. Cultofpj disagrees (and he can probably summarize his reasoning better than I can). Any third-party thoughts? ESkog 2 July 2005 08:05 (UTC)
Here is the exact wording from the law: [3] SEC. 9528. ARMED FORCES RECRUITER ACCESS TO STUDENTS AND STUDENT RECRUITING INFORMATION. (a) POLICY- (1) ACCESS TO STUDENT RECRUITING INFORMATION- Notwithstanding section 444(a)(5)(B) of the General Education Provisions Act and except as provided in paragraph (2), each local educational agency receiving assistance under this Act shall provide, on a request made by military recruiters or an institution of higher education, access to secondary school students names, addresses, and telephone listings. (2) CONSENT- A secondary school student or the parent of the student may request that the student's name, address, and telephone listing described in paragraph (1) not be released without prior written parental consent, and the local educational agency or private school shall notify parents of the option to make a request and shall comply with any request. (3) SAME ACCESS TO STUDENTS- Each local educational agency receiving assistance under this Act shall provide military recruiters the same access to secondary school students as is provided generally to post secondary educational institutions or to prospective employers of those students.
Thanks for offering to resolve this on the talk page. Cultofpj 4 July 2005 16:55 (UTC)
And this, I believe, is incorrect:
It's proven?
Also likely incorrect, since the law places an emphasis on special education improvement:
Does it "remove funding"?
Thanks for helping me sort this out, in advance. Rkevins82 05:26, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
I was a special education teacher in Texas whoe retired in 2004 and am somewhat familiar with to provisions of NCLB re special education. Prior to NCLB, speced students could taken a State Developed Alternative Assessment in lieu of the TAKS test the regular students took. SDAA is available in a variety of grade levels and a speced student could take the test at whatever level was deemed appropriate. When NCLB is fully implemented, they will have to take the same test as regular students, at the same grade level. Also, students could, if part of the Individual Education Plan, receive various types of assistance, such as having the test read to them, which will not be allowed under NCLB. There was a lot of discussion at the time of the conflict between existing laws/regulations regarding speced modifications and NCLB, which basically says that all students will acheive the same results.
To be fair, I should point out that there has been the preception, at least, that schools were guilty of placing students in special ed inappropriately in order to make apparent gains in test results. Wschart 14:43, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Certainly our President was well aware of the popular series of books and movies when he named this program. Do you think it was an intentional "codeword" to equate educating children with soul-saving? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Themeparkphoto ( talk • contribs) 15:51, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
There are easily twice the number of "cons" as "pros" listed for NCLB. I don't know what the other pros are, but I'm sure they exist, and we should list them. 12.17.189.77 01:45, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
It would also help to attribute all of the pros and cons to the people who have advanced these arguments. I'll see what I can find. Lottelita 17:22, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
I had never thought of it that way, but since you mention it, that is almost certainly the case. It would be nice to imagine that there might be some way to assure that ALL school children actually "EVOLVE" from school year to school year, becoming more and more intellectually and academically superior, without limit, until finally, after 10 years of NCLB, we finally obtain the perfection of the ULTIMATE SOVIET üBERMAN. I wonder how many morons in this administration, actually believe this is going to happen? What NCLB really is for, just to penalize teachers for the shortcomings of their students, to provide an excuse to take federal money out of education and transfer funding to the military. 70.106.60.44
There should be something in the article about how a school can be doing overall very well, but if a very small number of students in a particular group are not improving every year, then the whole school can be labeled as failing. Also, how the act creates incentives not to count students as being "dropouts". AnonMoos 15:01, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
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help)Rkevins82 04:00, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
NCLB does not have the effect of "restricting collective bargaining rights" in most districts. Rather, it allows for creation of charter schools--which tend not to be unionized due to the free choice of staffers who vote to remain out of the unions. So let's be fair in stating proponents' case and not use opponent-type arguments for both sides. (ChulaOne 14 July 2006)
Is there any point to adding a section covering how this might be seen as a violation of the 10th amendment?
Education has been a state/local area of concedrn because it is not mentioned in the constitution.
--flyingember
As many have noted on this talk page, the pros and cons sections are poorly referenced and often redundant, and fail to distinguish between factual and rhetorical claims. I'm wondering if people have suggestions as to how to clean this up and get this to quality standards. I'm gathering references and would like to try to consolidate, but what do others think is the best way to approach this? SlipperyN 12:26, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
I performed the long-suggested merger by redirecting the criticisms page to here. All the content of that page was redundant with the lengthier criticism page here. SlipperyN 22:33, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
In response to Ragnar the Magnificent's neutrality dispute tag, I've added several additional claims made in favor of the act and supporting references. I think it is appropriate to remove the tag or at least point to specific missing pieces and add them, or point them out for others to add. The mere face that there are more arguments in opposition than in favor does not, in and of itself, constitute a neutrality violation. SlipperyN 13:57, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
I propose that this section (found under Aguements against NCLB) be removed. It doesn't pertain to NCLB because nothing in the law directs funds to nonpublic, private, or parochial schools. Cultofpj 23:28, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
A simple Google search finds that it has been implemented in some ways that do violate this tenet: http://www.nsba.org/site/doc_cosa.asp?TRACKID=&CID=1046&DID=32444 Philadelphia wants to use the Catholic archdiocese schools as a school district to send poor-performing children when they must be given a choice of another school. I'll re-add this.-- Gloriamarie 16:51, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
A recent anon addition of all the claims the gov makes in favor of the act seems misplaced to me as they are unsourced. The claims in favor prior to that addition are at least backed up with research, however controversial. But just listing all of the promised advantages of the legislation at length seems unencyclopedic to me. Our focus should be on registering objective and measurable effects of the legislation in question, not just advertising it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Benzocane ( talk • contribs) 17:47, 9 December 2006 (UTC).
This edit is seriously inconsistent with WP:NPOV. Indeed, much of the text is written in a first person style:
We should definitely be studying the effects of these practices. But, high income White parents won't let us put their high achieving children into low track non-rigorous courses, so we can't do a randomized experiment. Fortunately, low income and minority parents have not caught on to what is going on, so we can continue to track their children low. If they do catch on, we will have to make getting more quality math and science teachers a priority. Until then, we simply can't do randomized experiments.
This material is clearly not written from a neutral point of view. John254 01:44, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
I have added a cleanup tag to this article due to poor quality of prose, large sections that lack wiki formatting and a need for NPOV cleanup. szyslak ( t, c, e) 08:19, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Can we put more information about the reauthorization of NCLB in 2007, because we need put information on there, and also, can someone expand this article to feature status so we can give attention to people who don't know about NCLB.-- Jsalims80 23:40, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Hello, I'm new to Wikipedia and I apologize in advance if I'm breaking any rules. Anyway, I thought that another side of the argument needs to be addressed. It is a common opinion within my area (and others!) that the NCLB act may benefit lower level students, but at the same time it penalizes me and other "honors" students, especially in high school and middle school. Within my state and probably within many others, upper level classes are being cut in an attempt to finance NCLB. Higher level language courses, art courses, specialized interest courses, honors courses, and Advanced Placement classes are being cut and less of an effort is being made to challenge and support these children and young adults. Students are being discouraged from taking these courses in favor of less difficult classes in which they will definitely perform well, rather than being challenged. Perhaps this will raise the standards for students of low performance but more advanced teenagers are not being provided with the means to succeed, and are being compromised in an attempt to lessen the academic gap. The NCLB sets expectations and measures students but fails to provide a process to give the best result. Much of the opposition to the NCLB act arises from the fact that it seems to be "dumbing down" advanced students, in addition to the lack of funding (which gives rise to political issues inside the schoolboard which further distracts them from improving our education). 01:01, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
I was trying to figure out where to add the reference to those who criticize the USDOE claims about NAEP, and it seems that *neither* section describing arguments was appropriate. Putting it in the "con" section would distance it from the relevant subject matter earlier, but putting it in "pro" was awkward. I ended up with the "pro," but I think it would be wiser to identify salient questions raised by either proponents, opponents, or those in the middle and addressing the subjects of each with the various arguments. -- SDorn 19:50, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
The majority of this article has POV issues, and the references are poorly syntaxed. Lots of work here for the near future... Also, apologies for not summarizing my edits - bad habit. I added a link to SEAs and created a Reference section for all those homeless citations. - Freechild 14:50, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
According to an article in the New York Times, from 11/26/2006 ("What It Takes to Make a Student"), between 2000 to 2005, poor fourth grade math results moved from 8% to 19% proficient, while black students moved from 5% to 13%, yet white students are at 47%. I find it interesting that the department of education has no self-criticism evident in its NCLB web site. The same NYTimes article observes that while some data was positive in the 2005 batch, other data was disappointing. The Wikipedia article doesn't address the latter. Between 2000 and 2005, black eighth graders proficiency in reading dropped from 13% to 12%, and poor eighth graders proficiency in reading dropped from 17% to 15%. Is this the kind of data that suggests we're on track to eliminate the achievement gap by the deadline proposed by NCLB? Notaslavetofashion 10:04, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
A reference for the reason for the schoolhouses is found in the fifth paragraph of this press release: http://www.ed.gov/news/pressreleases/2002/04/04112002a.html
The structures are temporary and their primary purpose is to protect people coming in and out of the building from falling debris. Factician 15:18, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
The following caption with citation of source is recommended:
A construction project to repair and update the building facade at the Department of Education Headquarters building in 2002 resulted in the installation of structures at all of the entrances to protect employees and visitors from falling debris. ED redesigned these protective structures to promote the " No Child Left Behind Act." The structures are temporary and will be removed in 2007. Source: U.S. Department of Education, http://www.ed.gov/news/pressreleases/2002/04/04112002a.html]]
If no disagreement, I will update the caption in a week or so. Factician 18:00, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Please discuss here of any changes or proposals of deleting this section. Thank you. Coolguy1368 20:14, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
Why is it a president's job to make up new programs? That seems like a committee's job.
This phrasing needs changing: "Because schools, districts, and states view the escalating assistance provided to students as a "punishment" if the school fails to make adequate progress according to the goals they themselves establish, the incentives are to set expectations lower rather than higher." That "escalating assistance" part doesn't ring true when we think about firing teachers and restructuring administration. I'd have changed it myself, but I'm a teacher and therefore strongly biased. Thought I'd bring it up here.
Eceresa
18:06, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Nobody responded, so I changed it.
Eceresa
20:10, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Somebody deleted the "criticism" section, and as I saw no discussion here, I reverted. Seems to me that there are a LOT of very valid criticisms of the law, though as I already mentioned I'm coming from a particular point of view on that. Hopefully there'll be discussion here before anybody else decides to get rid of the criticism. Eceresa 00:37, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm very new here at Wikipedia, so please be kind. I'm likely to mess up somehow in this post. I hope you can bear in mind that at least I went to the discussion section instead of trying to alter the entry directly! :^)
I teach English and ESL at a school that is currently in great danger of being forced to restructure. My school has a large ESL population and about 80% of our students speak a language other than English at home.
I have three criticisms of NCLB that I think are valid and have not appeared in the criticism section of this entry. Two of them have to do with how the law deals with ESL students, and the other with how the law can create difficulties between faculty and in-school administration and downtown administrations.
I realize that my criticisms are probably not written here in a format that would be useable on the official wikipedia entry for NCLB. Maybe someone here can help me with that.
I'm curious which of these criticisms people here might think worthy of addition to the official entry. Personally I feel that #2 is the most damning criticism of NCLB.
Thank you, - Ron ^*^
WerebatRon 00:21, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
Thanks! I agree with you that 1 and 2 are the strongest criticisms. I'm curious how one can criticize anything and remain neutral, but I get the bit about avoiding loaded language. It's difficult to do regarding #2 though. It is the most asinine thing about NCLB that I have yet encountered.
What exactly do you think I should provide citations for? #1 basically concerns something NCLB does NOT address, would a link to the law itself be a reasonable citation or not enough? Would it be better to provide a link to something about L1 literate vs. illiterate learners and the differences between them?
Regarding #2, again this is just something about how the law is written. Maybe an article that mentions this phenomenon?
Thanks, - Ron ^*^
WerebatRon 18:29, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
I cleaned the references in this article in order to develop the section at the end. In doing so, I have identified a number of out-dated links, which I noted, removed, or added citation needed links to. Also, the entire article is poorly referenced. The section of external links at the end should be integrated throughout the article to make the references stronger. - Freechild 18:14, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
I have removed an uncited referance to the act being unconstitutional. An accusation of that magnitude demands a citation from a credible source and should not be left in the article uncited. ( RookZERO 19:18, 10 June 2007 (UTC))
was: Educational Underwriters and before that was: External link to highly questionable organization
Hi.
There is an external link to an organization called Educational Underwriters. I spent some time on the Educational Underwriters website, and there are several things that that seem highly questionable for an organization that claims to be independent and non-profit:
So, they hire a few random PhDs to look over some product's research to rubber stamp it?
I propose that we remove the link to this organization.
Best, Rosmoran 00:11, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Someone posted the following question:
If you would like to contact me on my personal talk page, I can help point you in the right direction. Click here User talk:Rosmoran. When you get to the page, click the tab labed with a + (plus sign) to add a new message. I will respond as soon as I receive the message.
Best, Rosmoran 05:20, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
I didn't see a mention in the Critics' arguments section that most teachers are vehemently opposed to this legislation, as are national and state teachers' unions. This is definitely worth inclusion in the article. (I apologize if I missed this mentioned somewhere else in the article, but it needs to be in that section as well.) I have not yet met a teacher who likes this legislation, for varying reasons.-- Gloriamarie 16:49, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
I am tagging this content as dubious because the organization "Educational Underwriters" lacks notability. The organization is not notable because:
When Educational Underwriters actually begins doing the work their website advertises, and are recognized for doing the work, they may merit mention in Wikipedia.
The following criterion section is taken from
Wikipedia:Notability (organizations and companies):
A company, corporation, organization, team, religion, group, product, or service is notable if it has been the subject of secondary sources. Such sources must be reliable, and independent of the subject. The depth of coverage of the subject by the source must be considered. If the depth of coverage is not substantial, then multiple independent sources should be cited to establish notability. Trivial or incidental coverage of a subject by secondary sources is not sufficient to establish notability. Once notability is established, primary sources may be used to add content. Ultimately, and most importantly, all content must be attributable.
Best, Rosmoran 18:28, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
I have removed the sentence regarding the WWC being a "sole means of review and certification ..." because the WWC does not certify, endorse, or recommend any educational programs or methods.
Here is what the What Works Clearinghouse has to say about this on their website at http://www.whatworks.ed.gov/faq/how_ensure_reports.html:
Deleted text follows:
Initially, vendors were limited to What Works Clearinghouse [1], a division of the U.S. Department of Education, as a sole means of review
Best, Rosmoran 04:52, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Some parents are failing, so the federal government steps in to control more of our lives. Why are the feds doing this? How about states' rights, sovereignty & self-determination? Each state has an education system. Are some doing lousy jobs? Shouldn't those respective voters be able to make the necessary changes? Schools are even more of a local level thing, for each school district.
Scottit 68.180.38.41 06:20, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Actually, there is a section addressing that critique in the article, the Return to Local Control section; feel free to expand it if you wish to do so.-- Gloriamarie 05:35, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Rosmoran recently moved the funding section out of the criticism sections, claiming that it was not a criticism of the act, but rather of the implementation. I see the point but didn't immediately agree with the change. Before I changed it back, however, it occurred to me that it might be better to leave it as a separate section as it seems to give the lack of funding more importance, and while it's still a criticism, it's hard to talk about this subject intelligently without getting critical. Or perhaps it should be folded back into "criticism." I don't know. That's why I'm asking for discussion here. Eceresa 19:59, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Looking at the flow of text on the page, moving the ToC to the right allows the text to continue on the left side of the page, removing the huge gap between the lead section and the next section.
I wouldn't say that the ToC *has* to be on the right. But I like the flow of the article better with the ToC on the right.
Rosmoran 04:11, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
Hi all,
I happened to cross-check one of the criticisms with the source offered (the source being the actual text of the NCLB Act) and I think there is a mistake on our entry: Under the criticism entitled "Facilitates Military Recruitment," the article states that parents do NOT need to be notified when schools release their information to college or military recruiters.
However, in section 9528(a)2. of the NCLB act (entitled "Consent" and linked as source 46 from our entry) it clearly states that parents may request that their children's names not be released, and that the educational agency must notify them of the option to make this request, and they must comply with this request if made.
Doesn't this amount to notification of release of information? Seems to me that if parents must be notified of the choice and schools must abide by that choice, then schools are not authorized and certainly not required to provide any of the information to any recruiters without parental consent. Either way, the section should be amended to include this delineation because as it is worded now I think it is a bit of a misrepresentation of the actual text of the law.
PS. I'm new to contributing so if there's something I should have done better please let me know. LGDubs 23:22, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
Hi,
I didn't add this sentence. I don't know if specific states have done this and I don't have sources for the material. But, I do want to point out that states can add more requirements on top of those specified in the federal IDEA legislation. For example, states could require schools to maximize a disabled student's potential, which is not mandated at the federal level. Similarly, there is nothing I know of that would prohibit a state from requiring schools to provide FAPE also to gifted students.
It does seem like they would have to define what FAPE means for these students, though .....
Best, Rosmoran 14:41, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
The citation given is not the journal listed (No Child Left Behind as an Anti-Poverty Measure. Teacher Education Quarterly. Retrieved 3 October 2007). The link is to a personal website: http://susanohanian.org/show_commentary.php?id=473.
Rosmoran 13:27, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
I removed this: , including:
A nonprofit organization Educational Underwriters [12] was founded to provide an avenue for vendors seeking to have material reviewed. dubious – discuss
because a list of external links looks really odd in the middle of an encyclopedia article. My preference is to delete it entirely: it's basically a linkfarm. If you really think that the article needs a list of businesses which sell "scientifically based research" studies, then perhaps it could be put at the very end of the article, in a section labeled "External links." WhatamIdoing ( talk) 01:00, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
The link to the Military Free Zone site that says "reveals some of the darker sides of NCLB" is a POV violation, in my opinion. StaticElectric ( talk) 06:07, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
I only count 48 instances of the exact phrase "scientifically based research," using the cited reference. Just "scientifically based" gives us 97 instances. These counts include all text, including section heads. Do we have a source for the 111 number? WhatamIdoing ( talk) 01:58, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
I counted 69 instances of the phrase "scientifically based research" using the Find function of Adobe Reader. This method was used on the most recent version of NCLB as made available by the Department of Education located at URL ( htttp://www.ed.gov ). The actual URL of the NCLB text is ( http://www.ed.gov/policy/elsec/leg/esea02/107-110.pdf ). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wadehults ( talk • contribs) 02:53, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
This page seems to be getting pretty long, and some of the comments are more than three years old. There aren't very many active discussions at the moment. Should we figure out how to archive the oldest comments in a few days? (Must be the end of the calendar year -- I feel like cleaning house.) WhatamIdoing ( talk) 19:35, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Being on Wiki for a long time and reading articles and talk pages I see the same problem over and over again with subjects that are controversial. Of course first the NPOV gets thrown away and the talk page turns into a discussion of who's right and who's wrong. This is, imho, ruining wiki of what it could be.
Okay I could be wrong but when I or anyone looking for information on any given subject come to a page, wanting to read the facts, not someone's opinions. I'm starting to wonder, just like trivia, if a criticism sections needs to go on all wiki pages. Same thing with pro or for pages. What does this have to do with information on any given subject? I think a better way to do it, in cases like this page laying out what the act is, what it has accomplished, what it hasn't and be done with it. And all those sections be sourced.
I don't get how people think using a wiki page for an agenda will work, especially if you are opinionating and not making factual statements. When the truth comes out it's going to hinder those with agenda specific mindsets.
I know I'm probably talking to the wall. Specifically on this page I think it would be good to get rid of the claims sections and replace them with info that shows where it works or where it doesn't with sourced information. Seperate the organization against to a brief paragraph with link to the wiki article on that group.
But I know this is a lot to ask for because then we would just have the facts laid out and no one would be able to push a for or against agenda. OfficialDoughboy ( talk) 15:28, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
Is there really a significant number of people who pronounce "NCLB" as "Nickelby"? Because that's what the pronuncisation note in the first line of this article says. 69.7.203.153 ( talk) 20:52, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
I was under the impression that "100% compliance" had been officially redefined so that it wasn't 100%. Specifically, this regulation appears to exempt the bottom 1% of students (which pretty much means anyone with significant intellectual disabilities, but none of the kids with mild dyslexia). WhatamIdoing ( talk) 05:57, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Somebody knows if a child from private school can attend ESL program in the public, since we pay same taxes? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.38.88.123 ( talk) 18:21, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
The citation to the following quote -- "schools have been shown to exclude minorities or other groups (to enhance apparent school performance; as many as 2 million students)" -- has expired and needs to be updated or should be deleted. I searched Internet Archive and google and only found wiki-related citations to it, not the full text. Jd147703 ( talk) 14:32, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Re: Virginia ESL students taking a different test than others -- I don't know what they're doing in Virginia, but as an ESL/LEP teacher in Rhode Island I can assure you that there is no "special test" here than the ESL/LEP students are allowed to take. They have to take the NECAP, the same as everyone else. Don't get me started on the population redefinition and mathematical games they play in order to make it look like our ESL population is making Adequate Yearly Progress, either. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.109.46.151 ( talk) 15:50, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
I removed the second sentence from the "incentives against low-performing students" section, as the cited source was invalid. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.65.112.82 ( talk) 00:57, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
Is there really a significant number of people who pronounce "NCLB" as "Nickelby"? Because that's what the pronuncisation note in the first line of this article says. 69.7.203.153 ( talk) 20:52, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
As a member of the education industry, I can tell you from personal experience that I have heard it pronounced that way. Of course this is only anecdotal evidence, but, you asked. :) Macduffman ( talk) 19:33, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
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